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[LabouredSubterfuge]

Quick question: what has the political and public reaction to the Iranian framwork deal been like? I'd imagine it's less animated than the outrage and ridiculous Chamberlin/Hitler comparisons being thrown around by republicans here in the US.

It's been very quiet from the UK side, but barely any criticism though.

 

[Uzzy]

Quick question: what has the political and public reaction to the Iranian framwork deal been like? I'd imagine it's less animated than the outrage and ridiculous Chamberlin/Hitler comparisons being thrown around by republicans here in the US.

Cameron welcomed it, but it's barely been discussed. Of course, the UK's reaction doesn't really matter.

 

[dapperbandit]

I appreciate the same rigorous rules aren't applied to flat out racists. And that's where I'm coming from.

What if their party is BNP? For me UKIP is the same.

It shouldn't matter.

I understand UKIP is something of a laughing stock and this is a forum visited predominately by the young and leftward leaning but if we're going to have rules like the ones above we don't pick and choose who they apply to. I don't care what terms you use to describe UKIP or Farage but I don't like the suggestion implicit in your replies that posters who might reveal they are voting that way are fair game for some kind of tar and feathering. Not that I imagine it would happen anyway but I thought it should be settled.

 

[Jackpot]

It shouldn't matter.

Being a racist does matter. A lot.

 

[JonathanEx]

Being a racist does matter. A lot.

Oh come on, surely we don't have to go down the road of needing to state that not all Ukip voters are racist. I think Farage has a very dangerous rhetoric, but choosing a party to vote for is complicated, involves compromise and is influenced by so many factors.

Now their MPs and prospective MPs...


(Though BNP, I'd suspect any attempts to stand up support here would be quickly met by the been hammer based on their usual arguments...)

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

It shouldn't matter.

I understand UKIP is something of a laughing stock and this is a forum visited predominately by the young and leftward leaning but if we're going to have rules like the ones above we don't pick and choose who they apply to. I don't care what terms you use to describe UKIP or Farage but I don't like the suggestion implicit in your replies that posters who might reveal they are voting that way are fair game for some kind of tar and feathering. Not that I imagine it would happen anyway but I thought it should be settled.

No you're right let's give the friendly face of racism and xenophobia the latitude it deserves because it hasn't yet used terms that would draw criminal sanctions upon it.

I wouldn't tar and feather any poster that came out in their support. But I wouldn't be nice to them either. And I'm allowed to not be nice to them. And rightly so.

 

[Marc]

Okay, Marc. Let's go through this sentence by sentence.

Well I am not going to do that, as a tit for tat for every point will get to novel level posts so will try to be concise.

No. Wrestlemania said that he would like us to continue paying for whatever medical treatment we currently provide free for foreign visitors. This is not 'free health care to the world', it is ensuring that people who are in our country are given medical treatment if they are in an emergency situation.

See above. This is clearly not about infinite funds. It is about the £70mn (a *tiny* fraction of the NHS budget) that goes towards necessary medical treatment, a.k.a. what you get in an emergency.

Which is a blank cheque currently and completely open to abuse, I addressed this in other posts though. You would still get medical treatment, the money would come from insurance and not taxpayers. The UK public get public funded NHS, the world gets insurance funded NHS.

It is 2 billion from your own source, they exclude students and short term workers not using a work visa for no apparent reason. Are they paying a lifetime of costs to cover such NHS work? No, so why divide up the sum other than other motivations.

If you are not willing to pay for the HIV treatment of people who are in this country, and cannot pay for it themselves, you are de facto willing to let them die on the streets. The latter is a necessary consequence of the former.

Eh? They would still get treatment under Farage so whether he actually wants them to die or not is irrelevant as they can still get treatment.

Yes. And we use travel insurance in this country for foreigners for the vast amount of medical procedures we provide to said foreigners. That's why we make a profit off providing medical aid to foreigners, as I pointed out earlier. I think it is unlikely that anyone in this thread will defend not making use of charging for non-necessary treatment.

That's not the issue here. The issue is that some people will sometimes not have travel insurance, for whatever reason - they relied on the EIHC, they bought a relatively cheap policy because they're not particularly well off, who knows. You are proposing a policy whereby the first thing we do, on identifying that one of these people is having a medical emergency, is say "shit, nope, no travel insurance, your embolism just kinda sucks pal".

This is barbaric and I want you to provide a proper defense of what is allowing people to suffer in such a way.

Why have an artificial barrier though, travel insurance would cover all costs and extend to all short term stays. Or even short term work visas as well, I know a few companies are doing this trick of making them contract workers and reducing official headcount to get around paying national insurance. If the short term work visas require insurance from the employer then even more money potentially saved, or a loophole closed at least.

No, that isn't what I am saying because you can make it a requirement on entry. Where you are required to inform of the purpose and length of stay, and are checked for visas. Doing this is a separate debate and full of details but you can have an approved insurers list, those who will actually pay or have registered trading in the UK so open to fines if they do not. Or as I suggested, a national based insurance run at cost, variable rates, discounts for return visits with no claims etc.. There are fair and reasonable ways of doing it.

I literally said nothing of the sort, or even approaching that so why am I being asked to defend it?

The issue is not "hey, we're leftwing and we don't want anyone to use travel insurance ever, hoorah!". Don't be so fucking inane. Of course we find it preferable when people have travel insurance that meets the cost of treatment. However, this will not always be the case. It is almost certainly impossible to make sure that it is the case. Some people will be uninsured. These people still need treatment.

For what it's worth, incidentally, if you are travelling abroad, I'd suggest not relying on the EIHC; it doesn't provide a particularly full cover.

Why is it not possible? The whole point of government is to make such things lawful and enforceable, or indeed create our own. Again, I don't get this idea you're getting of foreigners dying in the streets and no care given. That would never happen here even if certain people might want it. On entry you are required to get insurance. If you are here illegally you still get treatment, required payment of the insurance card (again, cheap when non-profit) and then police involved. Of course in the case of a homeless person here illegally you aren't going to get anything back but how many cases of those are there.

Yeah, I don't use it personally but it is 'free' so worth using rather than nothing as some do.

Travel insurance is not something magical thing where once you have it, everything is suddenly great and fine in the world. There are different degrees of travel insurance. Some have strong coverage. Some have weak coverage. Even if you made it mandatory to require travel insurance to enter the United Kingdom, which I think would come under strong legal challenge from the European Union, it is inevitable that there will be cases when travel insurance does not provide sufficient coverage to solve the issue at hand. What do you propose to do about these people?

Your first suggestion would be immensely more harmful for the United Kingdom than whatever small benefits it might reap. A very large amount of people enter the United Kingdom on a fairly regular basis to be tourists, visit family, see friends, look for employment opportunities, and a vast amount of other things. Whilst in this country, they spend their money. That is a net benefit for us; a large one. The UK tourism industry represents £127bn a year.

Now, you drive up the cost of entering the country. Probably by quite a large amount, because you seem to want the travel insurance to offer very strong coverage. This will deter a fair amount of people from entering. Let's be really optimistic about this, and say it turns away one person in a hundred. The UK tourism industry just lost £1.27bn overnight. That exceeds the cost of providing care for foreigners by £1.2bn. Great fucking policy there, lad.

EU has policies against health insurance? Although the context here is Farage who want out of EU anyway so not as relevant. Again for legal entry you can make a list of approved insurers, a nationally based one or one where insurance office have to trade in UK and be answerable by law. These firms make massive profits, enforcing them to pay what is due is not some pie in the sky thinking. They do it, or they get fined. For those outside that system, presume illegal entries then you would do as I say earlier. So they would still get treated, yes. Again, unless we're admitting to the idea there is some huge underbelly of illegal immigrant health claim then that should be fine.

And everyone would stop coming here on holiday for having to buy travel insurance? What? A net benefit to whom? Cash in hand that isn't taxed properly. All that starbucks tax influx? The huge corporation taxes we reap currently? They are separate issues, on the NHS and this specific issue travel insurance is a good alternative to the NHS falling apart. You act like travel insurance costs the world, a few million coverage is pretty cheap when compared to others costs for a UK holiday. You think travel insurance will drive away 1% of travellers? It costs less than a dinner in London, sorry but you're pulling that figure and impact out of your arse. Visas for some countries cost more than that, people still go.

No, that £2bn is not for health tourists. Let me quote from the article directly:

The majority of this group of people are either employed, or students. They're not health tourists. The first group contributes tax to the economy; on average, more than British people do. They certainly do pay more than British people do. Even if they're not here long, that also implies they're less likely to need these services to begin with. If they a) pay more tax in a given year than British people do, on average (true), and b) are less likely to use health services in a given year than British people do, on average (true), they are net contributors.

If they're not entitled to the sweat of their brow, then none of us are. The second group are part of an absolutely vital group. The fact that the United Kingdom takes in and educates people from all over the world gives us immense cultural capital. Neither of these groups are in any way losing us money. To call that £2bn a 'cost' is like saying that you got a shit deal when you paid £2 for that piece of solid diamond, because hey, it cost £2, right?

As a group they do.

So you restate the meaning of health tourism and declare it as fine. Call it what you want, does it change the costs? You are here for a short time and contribute next to nothing into a system that incurs large costs. Where is the breakdown on the costs/benefits to make your statements? The 2 billion is stated for foreign visitors and temporary migrants, the breakdown of that isn't stated so where are you getting the figures for their contribution from?

Except they will leave in short order. Most contribute over a lifetime as a 'native', most of which they will not use the system.

Proof? Lets be real here, sites like the guardian and newstatesman would be calling it out on that basis if it were the case and proving as much. Instead they separate clear cases of health tourism, such as turning up 9 months pregnant and everyone else under the foreign visitor with no explanation as to why. Whether you came here premeditated or not to use the NHS incurs the same costs.

No, you're just too incompetent to understand the meanings of the words you throw around. £70mn goes on people who are actually here for health tourism. That's what Farage was arguing against. If you are here primarily for work, you are NOT a health tourist. That is not what the definition of health tourist is. You are simply an employee here to do work, who happens to have become ill. You almost certainly did not intend it, particularly given, and I need to stress this again, we are talking about *emergency* care. They're not coming here to get a fucking boob job and teeth whitening, we're talking about medical necessities.

Yeah, as in premeditated and with clear intent to do so... and the rest who just happened to require the NHS. What difference does it make? Why make that arbitrary separation when the other lot are still counted as foreign visitors. They are tourists getting health benefits from a public service. Its not like you can separate them with pre-determinism unless they are showing 9 months pregnant, not like that matters when size varies. So how are you going to separate those who are doing it on purpose and those that aren't before the fact? How would Farage or anyone else do that? And does it really matter when you still need to cover that cost somehow, someone has to pay, so why not pass it on and focus on other areas in dire need. A few extra quid to cover insurance is not going to stop them getting help, but it will help the NHS find the extra money it needs to actually function as a whole. Otherwise how else are you bridging the funding gap, ruling out borrowing more pls...

Oooooooooooooooopsssssssssssss

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/10/how-much-does-health-tourism-really-cost-nhs-its-not-2bn

What is your point? I quote it and refer to the fact it still costs 2 billion, they have simply done a split for those proven to come here specifically for healthcare. Why does intent magically change the total costs? Can we charge that back somehow now, or stop paying wages required to cover it since it doesn't count? The proposal of travel insurance was never suggested to only apply to those who were 'planning' on getting healthcare from us. How would it, pre-flight/ship/train/car medical checks? So it was never going to only target those specific people.

On another note I am curious on the logistics of working out that cost by the way, if a guy gets on a plane with a broken arm to get help here then how would a doctor/nurse know that and report it as such? Pregnancies yes, but how does it possibly account for other healthcare needs that have no time implications. Anyone got any ideas?

 

[BadHand]

More from the French Embassy denying the Telegraphs story.

https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/584124593205547008/photo/1

I don't suppose it even needs to be true to have an impact though.

 

[Kathian]

Feels like September again. Telegraph never asked the parties involved but asked Jim Murphy for a quote? Nuff said.

 

[AGoodODST]

I don't suppose it even needs to be true to have an impact though.

I can't see it having much of an impact up here. Everyone this is aimed at will know it's bollocks.

Of course Scottish Labour are all over it like flies to shite.

French Ambassador is also trending on twitter lol.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Well I am not going to do that, as a tit for tat for every point will get to novel level posts so will try to be concise.



Which is a blank cheque currently and completely open to abuse, I addressed this in other posts though. You would still get medical treatment, the money would come from insurance and not taxpayers. The UK public get public funded NHS, the world gets insurance funded NHS.

It is 2 billion from your own source, they exclude students and short term workers not using a work visa for no apparent reason. Are they paying a lifetime of costs to cover such NHS work? No, so why divide up the sum other than other motivations.



Eh? They would still get treatment under Farage so whether he actually wants them to die or not is irrelevant as they can still get treatment.



Why have an artificial barrier though, travel insurance would cover all costs and extend to all short term stays. Or even short term work visas as well, I know a few companies are doing this trick of making them contract workers and reducing official headcount to get around paying national insurance. If the short term work visas require insurance from the employer then even more money potentially saved, or a loophole closed at least.

No, that isn't what I am saying because you can make it a requirement on entry. Where you are required to inform of the purpose and length of stay, and are checked for visas. Doing this is a separate debate and full of details but you can have an approved insurers list, those who will actually pay or have registered trading in the UK so open to fines if they do not. Or as I suggested, a national based insurance run at cost, variable rates, discounts for return visits with no claims etc.. There are fair and reasonable ways of doing it.

I literally said nothing of the sort, or even approaching that so why am I being asked to defend it?



Why is it not possible? The whole point of government is to make such things lawful and enforceable, or indeed create our own. Again, I don't get this idea you're getting of foreigners dying in the streets and no care given. That would never happen here even if certain people might want it. On entry you are required to get insurance. If you are here illegally you still get treatment, required payment of the insurance card (again, cheap when non-profit) and then police involved. Of course in the case of a homeless person here illegally you aren't going to get anything back but how many cases of those are there.

Yeah, I don't use it personally but it is 'free' so worth using rather than nothing as some do.



EU has policies against health insurance? Although the context here is Farage who want out of EU anyway so not as relevant. Again for legal entry you can make a list of approved insurers, a nationally based one or one where insurance office have to trade in UK and be answerable by law. These firms make massive profits, enforcing them to pay what is due is not some pie in the sky thinking. They do it, or they get fined. For those outside that system, presume illegal entries then you would do as I say earlier. So they would still get treated, yes. Again, unless we're admitting to the idea there is some huge underbelly of illegal immigrant health claim then that should be fine.

And everyone would stop coming here on holiday for having to buy travel insurance? What? A net benefit to whom? Cash in hand that isn't taxed properly. All that starbucks tax influx? The huge corporation taxes we reap currently? They are separate issues, on the NHS and this specific issue travel insurance is a good alternative to the NHS falling apart. You act like travel insurance costs the world, a few million coverage is pretty cheap when compared to others costs for a UK holiday. You think travel insurance will drive away 1% of travellers? It costs less than a dinner in London, sorry but you're pulling that figure and impact out of your arse. Visas for some countries cost more than that, people still go.



So you restate the meaning of health tourism and declare it as fine. Call it what you want, does it change the costs? You are here for a short time and contribute next to nothing into a system that incurs large costs. Where is the breakdown on the costs/benefits to make your statements? The 2 billion is stated for foreign visitors and temporary migrants, the breakdown of that isn't stated so where are you getting the figures for their contribution from?

Except they will leave in short order. Most contribute over a lifetime as a 'native', most of which they will not use the system.

Proof? Lets be real here, sites like the guardian and newstatesman would be calling it out on that basis if it were the case and proving as much. Instead they separate clear cases of health tourism, such as turning up 9 months pregnant and everyone else under the foreign visitor with no explanation as to why. Whether you came here premeditated or not to use the NHS incurs the same costs.



Yeah, as in premeditated and with clear intent to do so... and the rest who just happened to require the NHS. What difference does it make? Why make that arbitrary separation when the other lot are still counted as foreign visitors. They are tourists getting health benefits from a public service. Its not like you can separate them with pre-determinism unless they are showing 9 months pregnant, not like that matters when size varies. So how are you going to separate those who are doing it on purpose and those that aren't before the fact? How would Farage or anyone else do that? And does it really matter when you still need to cover that cost somehow, someone has to pay, so why not pass it on and focus on other areas in dire need. A few extra quid to cover insurance is not going to stop them getting help, but it will help the NHS find the extra money it needs to actually function as a whole. Otherwise how else are you bridging the funding gap, ruling out borrowing more pls...




What is your point? I quote it and refer to the fact it still costs 2 billion, they have simply done a split for those proven to come here specifically for healthcare. Why does intent magically change the total costs? Can we charge that back somehow now, or stop paying wages required to cover it since it doesn't count? The proposal of travel insurance was never suggested to only apply to those who were 'planning' on getting healthcare from us. How would it, pre-flight/ship/train/car medical checks? So it was never going to only target those specific people.

On another note I am curious on the logistics of working out that cost by the way, if a guy gets on a plane with a broken arm to get help here then how would a doctor/nurse know that and report it as such? Pregnancies yes, but how does it possibly account for other healthcare needs that have no time implications. Anyone got any ideas?

Fucking hell, Marc. Just fucking hell.

 

[kmag]

Telegraph published the memo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...vealed-Full-text-of-Nicola-Sturgeon-memo.html

6 Mar 2015
Just had a telephone conversation with Pierre-Alain Coffinier (PAC), the French CG. He was keen to fill me in on some of the conversations his Ambassador had during her visit to Scotland last week. All of this was given on a confidential basis, so please limit any onward circulation...The Ambassador also had a truncated meeting with the FM (FM running late after a busy Thursday&#8230. Discussion appears to have focused mainly on the political situation, with the FM stating that she wouldn’t want a formal coalition with Labour; that the SNP would almost certainly have a large number of seats; that she had no idea ‘what kind of mischief’ Alex Salmond would get up to; and confessed that she’d rather see David Cameron remain as PM (and didn’t see Ed Miliband as PM material). I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation.

Memo from a civil servant retelling a conversation with French Consul General who was retelling the French Ambassadors account of a meeting had with Sturgeon a week previous.

Meanwhile, Nicola Sturgeon denies it.

Fiona Hyslop (who was in the room) denies it.

The French ambassador denies it.

The French Consul General denies it.

The person who wrote the memo doesn't seem to believe it.

It sounds like a case of chinese whispers. Notably the French aren't prevaricating about it, they're outright denying it.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Mate of mine says it is a hail Mary from Glasgow SLAB to destabilise the likely SNP victory. Lols. Wouldn't put it past them though. They don't have anything other than dirty tricks and "boo Tories are bad".

 

[AGoodODST]

itsfuckingnothing.gif

Who would of thought.

 

[BadHand]

Well I am not going to do that, as a tit for tat for every point will get to novel level posts so will try to be concise...

These arguments are so flawed.

Insurers are not going to pay pre-existing conditions (like HIV for example) or for medical expenses that are already covered by legislation in the UK. Insurers in many instances will not pay upfront, and require the traveler to be reimbursed after paying and then spend months disputing it.

There is absolutely no fucking way on this planet you can start making travel insurance mandatory to visit the UK. There are so many nations that are not required to have visas to visit Britain... whose gonna check for insurance? Border guards? Then who's gonna pay to fly them home again if they aren't insured by an accepted provider or not at all?

If we base access to the NHS on a "lifetime of costs" then a vast number of British residents will not be eligible - should we exclude single parents and the disabled who have never worked while were at it?

What if a tourist is stabbed by a chav in an alley, or run over by an uninsured UK driver? Are they still responsible for their own health care costs?

The reality is in the best interests of the British public to treat emergencies free of charge no mater who they are, this is something that affects us all.

 

[Marc]

Being a racist does matter. A lot.

Tory Party General election candidate, Michael Powell - Convicted and jailed for 3 years for downloading hardcore child porn.

. Tory Party Councillor (Wickbar/Bristol) Roger Talboys - Convicted and jailed for 6 years for multiple sex attacks on children.

. Tory Party Vice-Chairman of Welsh Conservatives, Andrew Baker - Received a banning order for stalking women.

. Tory Party MP (Billericay) Harvey Proctor - Stood trial for sex offences of a sado-masochistic nature against teenage boys, and was forced to resign.

. Tory Party Councillor ( Stratford-upon-Avon ) Christopher Pilkington - Convicted of downloading hardcore child porn on his PC. Placed on sex offenders register and forced to resign.

. Tory Party councillor ( Coventry ), Peter Stidworthy - Charged with indecent assault of a 15-year old boy.

. Tory Party Mayor ( North Tyneside ), Chris Morgan - Forced to resign after being arrested twice in 2 weeks, for indecent assault on a 15-year old girl, and for suspicion of downloading child porn.

. Tory Party MEP, Tom Spencer - Caught smuggling drugs and porn through customs.

. Tory Party councillor and former Mayor (Wrexham), Michael Morris - Convicted and put on probation for 2 years, for the indecent assault of another man, which was captured on CCTV.

. Tory Party Liaison Manager on the London Assembly, Douglas Campbell, who’s job includes running the Tory GLA website - Arrested for allegedly downloading child porn. He is currently suspended while the Police investigation continues.

. Labour Councillor (Newton Aycliffe) Martin Locklyn - Convicted and jailed for 15 years for sexually abusing 3 14-year-old boys.

. Labour Councillor (North Lincolnshire) David Spooner - Convicted and jailed for 1 year for masturbating in front of 2 young boys.

. Labour Mayor (Westhoughton/Lancashire) Nicholas Green - Convicted and jailed for 10 years for 3 rapes and 13 counts of indecent assault against little girls between the age of 6 and 10. He raped one woman on her wedding day.

. Labour Mayor (Todmordon) John Winstanley - Convicted and jailed for rape and threats to kill. After raping and threatening to kill his terrified victim, Winstanley then ordered the woman to go on all fours before urinating on her.

. Prominent Labour Party activist Mark Tann (who has met Tony & Cherie at Party functions) recently got a 15-year sentence for raping a 4-year old girl on 2 separate occasions.

. Labour’s current Parliamentary Candidate (Reading East) Tony Page - Has 2 Convictions for Acts of Gross Indecency` in public toilets.

. Labour Mayor (Burnley) Mark Swainston - Convicted of sex offences in public toilet.

. Entire Labour Party conspired to conceal the activities of Labour Party activist and serial child-molester Mark Trotter, who died from AIDS before he could be convicted.

. Labour Councillor (North Yorkshire) Raymond Coats - Court appearance for indecently assaulting a woman.

. Labour MP (Rhonda Valley) Chris Bryant poses in his pants on the Internet to advertise himself for casual gay sex encounters. Describes himself as “Horny as bu**ery” and says, “I’d love a good long f**k”.

. Labour Councillor (Manchester), George Harding - Charged with indecent assault on a girl of 12.

. Labour MP Ron Davies was mugged by a Rasta on Clapham Common while cruising for gay sex. He was photographed again by the media recently, engaged in some `man-on-man` action in a field off a motorway. “I was only looking for badgers” he said.

. Labour Councillor (Durham), Derrick Payne - Arrested by Police following a sex attack.

. Labour MP, Joe Ashton - Caught up in a Police raid while frequenting a brothel. Tried to lie his way out of the scandal.

. Labour Councillor (Shropshire), Derek Woodvine - Arrested by Police in anti-porn operation.

. Labour Councillor (Basildon), Tony Wright - Forced to resign after being caught using his council computer to download porn.

. Labour MP (Sheffield), Clive Betts - Suspended from Parliament for 7 days after being caught forging immigration papers to extend the stay of his Brazilian rent-boy gay lover.


* Senior clerk Phillip Lyon, who arranges the weekly Prime Minister’s Question Time for Tony Blair, was arrested after vice cops raided his Commons office.Lyon, 37, is accused of making indecent images of children.
* The Labour Party in Calderdale has been plunged into a crisis as their lead candidate, and former Mayor of Hebden Royd, Stewart Brown, has been arrested on suspicion of child porn offences.

Labour Councillor and Deputy Council Leader (Northumberland), John Whiteman, who was also a senior member of the local police authority – Convicted and fined in 2002 for soliciting a prostitute in the red light district of Middlesbrough. The court heard Whitman was arrested in his car as Police discovered him in a “state of undress” with a lady of the night he had just paid £35 for sex. He subsequently resigned from the council.


Labour Councillor (Stoke/Staffordshire), Michael Barnes, put forward a motion in July 2004 to change the constitution of Stoke-on-Trent Council. The proposed amendments were designed to prevent the City’s two British National Party councillors from chairing any committees, so as to `protect` the good citizens of Stoke from the beastly BNP types they’d voted for in huge numbers to represent them. As Mr Barnes explained to the local paper, the move was “to prevent the BNP from exerting more influence”, and was “in the best interests of the people of Stoke-on-Trent”. A few months later, in November 2004, the civic-minded and virtuous Councillor Barnes appeared at North Staffordshire Magistrates Court, to face seven different charges relating to child pornography

Labour Councillor (Durham), Derrick Payne – Arrested by Police following a sex attack

Labour Councillor and former Mayor (Halton/Cheshire), Liam Temple - Convicted in 2004 of `Inciting a child under 16 to commit an act of gross indecency` after the 58-year old Labour pervert had attempted to molest a 12-year old girl. During the case, the brave youngster told the court via a video link: “He said if I let him touch me he would give me money”.

Labour Councillor (Coxhoe/Durham), Les Sheppard – Convicted in 2004 on ten counts of indecent assault on young girls. Jailed for 2 years, and placed on the sex offenders register for 10 years. Teeside Crown Court heard how 71 year old Cllr Sheppard lured his victims into his gold Porsche before driving them to remote spots, where he would submit them to sickening sex attacks. After his arrest, the Labour nonce-case told police “I love women, but you do things which you regret”. Sheppard’s `women` victims were between 9 and 13 years old.

According to media reports, the names of 2 former Labour Cabinet Ministers said to be `Household names` appear on the `Operation Ore` list of subscribers to hard-core child pornography. The same FBI investigation, which led to the arrest of rock star Pete Townshend. So who are they Mr. Blair?

Yusef Azad – One of Ken Livingston’s overpaid left-wing cronies on the London Assembly gravy train – Resigned from his 60K-plus a year job `assisting` Assembly members, after being arrested on suspicion of downloading child porn in 2003.


Labour Councillor (Wokingham/Berkshire), Nelson Bland – Convicted on 16 counts of possession and distribution of hardcore child porn in 2004. Sentenced to community service, placed on the sex offender’s register and ordered to attend rehabilitation classes for paedophiles. Bland used his own teenage daughters computer to hoard his grotesque gallery of child abuse, which was discovered by police during a search of Bland`s home, when they arrested him in connection with the murder of a Nottingham businessman

Labour Councillor and Mayor-Elect (Merton/London), Sam Chaudry – Due to become Merton’s first Asian Mayor, before he was arrested, tried and convicted of multiple sex attacks on young girls in 1999. One of his victims was a 5-year old.

Labour Councillor (Halton/Leeds), Lee Benson – Convicted and awaiting sentence in 2005, after pleading guilty on 12 counts of possession of indecent images of children, featuring youngsters between the ages of 5 and 11. Benson, who has a child of his own, repaid the fools who voted for him by storing his revolting kiddie porn collection on the computer provided for him by the council. Benson has been `suspended` - not expelled - by the Labour Party, which means his name remains on the Labour Party membership list, as well as on the sex offenders register. As to which is the more shameful – take your pick!

Labour Councillor (Bridgend/South Wales), Iestyn Tudor Davies – Convicted, jailed for 7 years, and placed on the sex offender’s register for life in 2005, for repeatedly raping a 9-year old girl


Labour Councillor (Newham/London), Greg Vincent, who was the Election Agent to Labour MP Tony Banks at the 2001 General Election – Convicted and given a 2-year community rehabilitation order in 2003, for possession of hardcore kiddie porn films and photos, featuring children as young as 8. One of the photos the Labour Councillor found so entertaining, featured – as described in court – a girl aged around 10, naked except for a dog-collar, being assaulted and abused while her hands were tied behind her back around a beam. Vincent was also a School Governor

Prominent Edinburgh Labour party activist and election candidate, Rab Knox - Convicted and jailed for 3 years in 2005 for a horrific sex attack on a woman passenger in his taxi cab.

Labour Party Official (North West England Regional Officer, and parliamentary adviser to the Home Office Minister responsible for crime and policing, Hazel Blears), Peter Tuffley – Convicted and jailed for 15 months and placed on the sex offenders register for 10 years in 2006, for the sexual molestation of a 13-year old boy that he had previously `groomed` on the internet. Tuffley was described as a `rising star` within the Labour Party - which is nothing to be proud of either


Labour Councillor (Hornchurch/Essex), Alan Prescott, who was also a senior magistrate – Convicted and jailed for 2 years in 2001, for molesting children at the East London care home where he was the superintendent. Prescott, described in court as a “pillar of his local community” admitted carrying out sex attacks on four teenage boys as they slept in their beds


Labour Parliamentary candidate (Cheadle/Cheshire), Paul Diggert – Subject of a 2002 police investigation into the alleged procurement of underage girls for sexual purposes via internet chatrooms. According to the `Sunday Mirror` (3/11/02), Diggert had admitted to having four underage girls that he was `grooming` for sex. In 2004 Diggert was convicted of making and distributing indecent pictures of children


Labour Councillor (Dagenham/London), Terry Power – Forced to resign in 1999 after being arrested and charged with sex attacks on teenage boys. Details of trial and conviction to follow.

Labour Councillor (Westlands/Worcestershire), Keith Rogers – Convicted, fined, and placed on the sex offender’s register in 2003, after downloading over 2,000 hardcore child porn photos on his computer

Labour councillor Ex-Paston councillor Gilbert Benn (48) A former city councillor was a five-year jail sentence for molesting an 11-year-old boy and threatening the youngster’s mother in a bid to cover his tracks.

A FORMER Wirral Tory councillor led a secret life looking at indecent images of children. While his wife and two daughters slept upstairs, Ian McKellar spent hours poring over child porn downloaded from the internet onto his computer. Ex-Tory councillor was sentenced after admitting child porn charges

Source: http://conspiracytruths.co.uk/mpscovictedofsexoffense.html
Note: Not my wording, direct quote from the site which admittedly sounds suspicious but doing sampling of the names they seem legit.

As long as you assume Labour/Tory supporters are child sex offenders, then that seems fair.

Although I am not aware of the extent of UKIP's reps getting racism convictions.

Personally I would put the blood of hundreds of thousands of civilians on Labour and Tory hands as well after ignoring the populous when going to and illegal war in iraq too. But am well aware no convictions will ever come of that. A lot of other accusations I would throw at them too but keeping to convictions. Although if we were to ignore convictions for racism in the Labour and Tory party as well I am sure you could make a fair amount in number. Also worth noting the forced resignations of actual convictions, not getting thrown out the party but resignations.


I honestly don't get the tribalism in politics, these people in general do not tend to be the greatest of us. Some are worse than others for sure but very few good politicians about IMO. Not sure on the background of Libdems and Greens as I doubt they'd be under as much scrutiny, can probably guess they are safe.

 

[BadHand]

Source: http://conspiracytruths.co.uk/mpscovictedofsexoffense.html
Note: Not my wording, direct quote from the site which admittedly sounds suspicious but doing sampling of the names they seem legit.

As long as you assume Labour/Tory supporters are child sex offenders, then that seems fair.

Although I am not aware of the extent of UKIP's reps getting racism convictions.

Personally I would put the blood of hundreds of thousands of civilians on Labour and Tory hands as well after ignoring the populous when going to and illegal war in iraq too. But am well aware no convictions will ever come of that. A lot of other accusations I would throw at them too but keeping to convictions. Although if we were to ignore convictions for racism in the Labour and Tory party as well I am sure you could make a fair amount in number. Also worth noting the forced resignations of actual convictions, not getting thrown out the party but resignations.


I honestly don't get the tribalism in politics, these people in general do not tend to be the greatest of us. Some are worse than others for sure but very few good politicians about IMO. Not sure on the background of Libdems and Greens as I doubt they'd be under as much scrutiny, can probably guess they are safe.

I bet I could somewhere on that site that claims the royal family are shapeshifting reptilian lizards.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Incredible Marc, rather than engage on the point that UKIP is disgustingly racist you point out that people from other parties are criminals, like it exonerates UKIP.

UKIP is a racist/xenophobic party.

Other parties may contain people that are criminals.

And yet you think UKIP are a more plausible option for controlling this country.

 

[kmag]

I bet I could somewhere on that site that claims the royal family are shapeshifting reptilian lizards.

Next you'll be telling me they're touched by God.

 

[kmag]

Mate of mine says it is a hail Mary from Glasgow SLAB to destabilise the likely SNP victory. Lols. Wouldn't put it past them though. They don't have anything other than dirty tricks and "boo Tories are bad".

It did seem a tad suspect that everyone in Scotland who's ever pinned on a red rosette just happened to be social media at 10pm on a bank holiday Friday night.

 

[Yen]

I have to admit that I’m not sure that the FM’s tongue would be quite so loose on that kind of thing in a meeting like that, so it might well be a case of something being lost in translation.

Says it all.

What exactly do the Torygraph get out of this beyond publicity? Either people believe the story and it helps Labour, or don't and it helps SNP.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Mate of mine says it is a hail Mary from Glasgow SLAB to destabilise the likely SNP victory. Lols. Wouldn't put it past them though. They don't have anything other than dirty tricks and "boo Tories are bad".

This is my feeling too, it stinks of dirty tricks. Labour are on the verge of being virtually wiped out in Scotland, rumours the Tories will go the federalism route after the election, leaves labour only with Wales (no offence to Wales intended!)

It was obvious last night that the Tories are very, very happy to leave the SNP. Cameron hardly said a word back to NS. Day after the debates this memo is mysteriously leaked, it really stinks.

 

[Malikov]

why are the telegraph helping out scottish labour ?

am i missing something

 

[killer_clank]

This whole thing is just utterly bizarre. The telegraph have gotten 4th hand info which literally doubts the veracity of something right there in the document and has been denied by the 2 french diplomats mentioned in the article, and not even bothered to try and get a quote from the FM? Note that they did get a quote from Lib Dem Leader nobody Willie Rennie, but not the FM?

 

[Nicktendo86]

why are the telegraph helping out scottish labour ?

am i missing something

Funny enough they just their editor jus the other day. People have been bailing out in drives, it is currently imploding.

 

[Par Score]

First voting intention poll with fieldwork conducted after the debate.

CON 31%(-1), LAB 33%(nc), LDEM 9%(+1), UKIP 18%(nc), GRN 3%(-1)

Unsurprisingly, itsfuckingnothing.gif

Polls around major holidays like Easter have a tendency to give some weird results anyway, but in this case it's very much business as usual.

 

[killer_clank]

Funny enough they just their editor jus the other day. People have been bailing out in drives, it is currently imploding.

their arch unionist scottish editor alan cochrane is on record in his book as doing what alistair darling told him to:

"'Jenny said I should do what Darling asks. He’s in charge after all. It’s not really good journalism but what the hell does journalism matter? This is much more important."

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides...e-best-quotes-from-the-alan-cochrane-diaries/

 

[Marc]

I bet I could somewhere on that site that claims the royal family are shapeshifting reptilian lizards.

I don't doubt it (it would explain a lot actually), terrible site but the references seemed legit.

Feel free to debunk it though, happy to admit I am wrong. Was quite hard to find a list of politician convictions in general, would think that would be quite handy for voters but hey.

Incredible Marc, rather than engage on the point that UKIP is disgustingly racist you point out that people from other parties are criminals, like it exonerates UKIP.

UKIP is a racist/xenophobic party.

Other parties may contain people that are criminals.

And yet you think UKIP are a more plausible option for controlling this country.

What was being inferred was all members/voters of UKIP are racist (ironic generalization aside), I am pointing out you can also say the same of other parties on other sickening things. So you would therefore say the same on all their members too. I am not the one saying that about UKIP though, and neither would I say it of Labour/Tory voters. I am not absolving anyone's actions by doing that, I take the view of innocent until proven guilty. You and others do not apparently.

I think UKIP represent my views on certain issues, I think Greens represent my views on certain issues, I think Lib Dems represent my views on certain issues, I think Tory/Labour (same diff) represent my views on certain issues. I don't go all in on a party as I really don't care, since none of them could ever be perfect in any case. What I find weird is people who are so willing to throw a large section of the population under the bus while giving other sections a free pass. UKIP are not a plausible option for running the country, it won't happen but I won't judge people as racist or a sex offender or whatever based on a cross without getting their views. Even sodding BNP, maybe they agree with them on their transport policy (if they have one besides back of the bus) or thought it stood for Be Nice Party... I don't know. Most people tend to be completely ignorant about a party they vote for so not going to assume thought crime.

 

[Kathian]

I think he issue for Labour and the Telegraph is that 45% of Scots did not buy into these sorts if stories last year; this will likely have the opposite affect they want.

To answer why the Torygraph are helping SLAB, they've taken it upon themselves to 'save the union' and they want to do it by making sure its not a open honest choice.

 

[kmag]

First voting intention poll with fieldwork conducted after the debate.

CON 31%(-1), LAB 33%(nc), LDEM 9%(+1), UKIP 18%(nc), GRN 3%(-1)

Unsurprisingly, itsfuckingnothing.gif

Polls around major holidays like Easter have a tendency to give some weird results anyway, but in this case it's very much business as usual.

It's only interesting in terms of the range of percentages. The rolling average since the Budget (which was really the start of the political 'season) are

Con 33.7%
Lab 33.9%
Lib Dem 7.9%
UKIP 13.8%
Green 5.2%

YouGov, Lord Ashcroft and ComRes have pushed one or both of big two into the 35%+ range pretty consistently in the last week and a bit. TNS, Opinium, Survation, Populus and Panelbase have been closer to the 32-34% range.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

why are the telegraph helping out scottish labour ?

am i missing something

Unionism. A Tory minority with 300 or more seats with the SNP holding 50 seats would do a deal for proper DevoMax and EV4EL within days. A lot of Tories have come to terms with that and are happy to see Sturgeon pummel SLAB even if it means the union as we know it is done. The Telegraph is not.

The story is 100% manufactured bullshit, but it will get enough play tomorrow and on the doorsteps that I believe it will swing enough votes in Labour's favour to save their bacon. For the Telegraph that is 20 more unionist MPs in Parliament and 20 fewer nationalists. The Tories can't win in Scotland and Labour are the only credible (just about) unionist party in Scotland.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Honestly I am not sure zomg, I think it may sure up the SNP vote further. I think it will backfire, especially if slabour's fingerprints are found on it at all.

 

[kmag]

Honestly I am not sure zomg, I think it may sure up the SNP vote further. I think it will backfire, especially if slabour's fingerprints are found on it at all.

To be fair no-one lately has lauded the Telegraph for its cunning, subtlety and wit, and if it's done in conjunction with McTiernan well he's another one who thinks he's far cleverer and sly than he actually is.

I'd buy Zomg's theory as an explanation as to why the floated the balloon. I'm just surprised they didn't get a Tory quote in there as well. You know "with his long term economic plan even the nationalists can see Dave's the man for the job. Long term economic plan."

 

[killer_clank]

the problem is if it continues to be debunked labour really can't use it. some lab people have already started deleting some of the tweets accusing her of deception and such.

 

[kmag]

the problem is if it continues to be debunked labour really can't use it. some lab people have already started deleting some of the tweets accusing her of deception and such.

The rank and file don't really want to be caught up on a defamation writ. Not that Sturgeon is likely to go down that route, the politicians don't really want to have to say whether they think the French are lying. I think some people hoped the Ambassador and Consol General had shut up shop for the Easter weekend.

 

[AGoodODST]

Memo was denied on Sky News by the French Consul general.

https://twitter.com/johnmalta99/status/584280894124490752

I also think if a writer for the Scottish sun is questioning your journalistic integrity it's a clear sign you've gone fucked up.

Ed calling it "damning revelation" and wiping out any good will he had garnered after that first debate.

 

[Walshicus]

What was being inferred was all members/voters of UKIP are racist.

But that's generally the case. UKIP campaign on a racist, anti-citizen, pro-toff platform. But what's fantastically depressing about that is that it's the racist part that seems to stick allowing working class people to ignore the unequivocal fact a vote for UKIP is a vote against their own class.

Kind of like the American Republican party.

 

[kmag]

Memo was denied on Sky News by the French Consul general.

https://twitter.com/johnmalta99/status/584280894124490752

I also think if a writer for the Scottish sun is questioning your journalistic integrity it's a clear sign you've gone fucked up.

Ed calling it "damning revelation" and wiping out any good will he had garnered after that first debate.

We're now at the "we all know it's bullshit, but lets pretend it isn't for minute" stage mainly to be fair because there's fuck else to talk about until tomorrows papers. What was that Twain quote? A lie will be halfway around the world, before the truth has even got it's boots on.

 

[Jackpot]

So the basis for this story is a memo from a senior civil servant about a telephone call with the French Consul-General about a conversation with the French ambassador about the ambassador's conversation with Nicola Sturgeon at a meeting.

And the Telegraph are still pushing the article with no updates with the replies of those involved.

Make a complaint:
https://www.ipso.co.uk/oxbxApps/app/complaint2.html

 

[phisheep]

I appreciate the same rigorous rules aren't applied to flat out racists. And that's where I'm coming from.

Let's not go assuming that shall we? I know about ten people who are considering voting UKIP, and not one of them is a flat-out racist or even, so far as I can tell, significantly racist at all. Their reasons are largely anti-eu, anti-euro, pro-British jobs and anti-establishment protest.

Edit: oh, and every one of them voted Labour last time around.

 

[Whitechocolatekrispies]

I appreciate the same rigorous rules aren't applied to flat out racists. And that's where I'm coming from.

So can I call labour supporters child rapists since they systematically enabled the mass rape and subversion of justice in Rotterdam?

 

[Walshicus]

So can I call labour supporters child rapists since they systematically enabled the mass rape and subversion of justice in Rotterdam?

No, because Labour voters generally don't vote Labour to enable child rape. Whereas UKIP voters vote UKIP to enable racist / xenophobic policy.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Telegraph published the memo

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...vealed-Full-text-of-Nicola-Sturgeon-memo.html



Memo from a civil servant retelling a conversation with French Consul General who was retelling the French Ambassadors account of a meeting had with Sturgeon a week previous.

Meanwhile, Nicola Sturgeon denies it.

Fiona Hyslop (who was in the room) denies it.

The French ambassador denies it.

The French Consul General denies it.

The person who wrote the memo doesn't seem to believe it.

It sounds like a case of chinese whispers. Notably the French aren't prevaricating about it, they're outright denying it.

Chinese whispers or The Telegrah just making shit up?

I'm more inclined to believe it's the latter. They've got their headline, they've got news outlets talking about it, holding interviews with people who were at the meeting, it's successfully derailed any momentum the SNP had coming out of the debate.

That was probably the end game. Try and do whatever it takes to take the wind out of the SNP sails...

 

[Miles Quaritch]

So can I call labour supporters child rapists since they systematically enabled the mass rape and subversion of justice in Rotterdam?

Did you really think this through before you posted?

 

[AGoodODST]

Sky News saying the "leak" originated in the Scotland Office.

Wonder when Carmichael will appear.

Edit: Foreign Office now denying the memo even exists. No amendment to telegraph article. 12 hours later and no member of Scottish Government or SNP has bee asked to comment.

Edit2: Sturgeon calling for inquiry over memo.

https://twitter.com/jamesmatthewsky/status/584309077938991105

 

[Stereogatari]

That bottom right story is absolute trash. The headline says "Asians" which refers to people who could be any number of religions. Then in the first line of the article it talks about "Muslim communities across Britain" which can refer to many different ethnic groups and races. Fucking total trash, Javid is a common name among Pakistani Muslims so why not call it as it is and say Pakistani Communities across Britain and not use this flippy flappy vague "Asians" and "Muslims" terminology, or if they're going to do that then at least use "Asian Muslims" if they want to be vague.

I'm of a Turkish background and it annoys me to no fucking end that the media in this country associate the "Muslim Community" with Pakistanis/Bangladeshis when there are at least half a million Turks in this country and hundreds of thousands of Muslims from other communities (Persian, Arab etc.). I'm an Atheist but still feel like a Cultural Muslim, but whenever I read "Muslim Community" I don't associate myself with it, since I know that refers to the Pakistani community.

 

[War Peaceman]

Chinese whispers or The Telegrah just making shit up?

I'm more inclined to believe it's the latter. They've got their headline, they've got news outlets talking about it, holding interviews with people who were at the meeting, it's successfully derailed any momentum the SNP had coming out of the debate.

That was probably the end game. Try and do whatever it takes to take the wind out of the SNP sails...

The Telegraph cannot be trusted given the HSBC scandal. The Sun, Mirror, Mail are all shit and vile in their own ways, but they are at least transparent in their biases. Even if they do not to be regulated better. The Telegraph used to be right wing but respectable - the equivalent of the Guardian. But now corporate sponsors has infected the journalistic side of their business.

As to the actual scandal, this is the kind of thing that would have been effective a few days before an election, but there is just too much time for it to be debunked and for the emotion to be taken out of it.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

https://twitter.com/nickeardley/status/584302412145545216

Foreign Office spokeswoman tells me they have no record of memo behind @NicolaSturgeon story. “We are not aware of such a document.”


Curiouser and curiouser.

Looks more and more like a SLAB dirtry tricks operation at the moment. SLAB supporting Scottish civil servant misrepresents conversation and leaks to unionist newspaper.

 

[JonathanEx]

There's more political blind dates to at the Guardian. There's Jacob Rees Mogg and Natalie Bennett, if that doesn't sell it to you.


http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/series/political-blind-dates

 

[Beefy]

Did you really think this through before you posted?

It's a shame UKIP has links to racism. We reallyneed a 3rd party to rise up to fight the main two.