Chemical Rampancy
Banned
Aye, between the SNP stealing Labour votes and UKIP stealing Conservative votes, anybody who voted against AV is looking increasingly politically incompetent. Surely the system cannot last yet another hung parliament.
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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!
- Thread starter Volotaire
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Aye, between the SNP stealing Labour votes and UKIP stealing Conservative votes, anybody who voted against AV is looking increasingly politically incompetent. Surely the system cannot last yet another hung parliament.
Visualante2
Member
£1.60 for a Guardian these days. I'm not even that old, cost 60p when I started reading newspapers. Damn.
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Some more front page reactions to the debate, from Sky News.
Not surprising some of the trashiest newspapers and outlets are pulling bollocks like this, and siding with the Conservatives.
On a somewhat related but still unrelated note, if it wasn't for The Guardian, Murdochs Newscorp take over of BSkyB would have been successful, and likely made his empire even more prominent and poisonous.
JonathanEx
Member
But of all the papers, it's the Telegraph you need to be dubious of. Yes, Times and Sun have their lines, but will at least report on the negative things if they happen. Think there was another bit in Private Eye this week on how one of the Barklay brothers has promised to do anything to help Cam: https://twitter.com/Bertiebobo/status/583262749196722176?s=09
There's a reason that the Telegraph's nickname is the Torygraph. They've been the more intellectual side of Conservatism for a very long time, much as The Guardian has been the acceptable face of the Centre-Left.
nelsonroyale
Member
I don't think you should vote for a part simply based on the performance of their leading representative in a debate. We all know how little what they say is actually born out in reality. Personally, I support the Greens, but I have never been impressed with Bennett's performance. I think she is the wrong choice for the position. But fuck it, charisma, particularly in politics is snake oil...She is a bad performer, but pretty genuine. Most of the others are constructs, apart from Sturgeon. She is good.
Anyway, structure isn't that difficult to acquire. The Greens need to grow to get better. They won't require the legitimacy unless they grow. It would be better if they had someone like Patrick Harvey though. He is their Scottish MSP, and is pretty damn sharp.
Anyway, my area is the environment, climate change and such...Its massive and only the greens are serious about. The other parties might appear more legit, but they are narrow-minded, short-sighted and caught up in the illusion of supposed pragmatic realism.
What do you mean? By polling consensus Miliband performed quite well.
Neither he or Cameron fucked up. Miliband didn't make a break through but neither did Cameron. Now you might think it's impossible for Cameron as an incumbent to do so, but that's not true at all.
People and commentators seem to forget Cameron isn't currently winning this election either. If it continues like it's going Cameron is far more likely to be out a job. Yet there seems to be this notion that if Cameron just plays it safe he'll magically 'win'.
Cameron could have dropped his pants and shat on the middle of the stage last night and it wouldn't have changed the Torygraph or the Suns front page. They're comics at this point.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Talking to a Green member that I know the only reason that Bennett got the job was because she is a well liked insider and her camp played the system in her favour. Most people know she is completely useless and realise that an Australian fronting an election campaign in the UK was always going to end badly for them, but after she fucked up they want her and the idiots who helped put her there to own the loss so they can purge them from the party and get a decent bunch of leaders in place. At least that's what people who don't like her say.
JonathanEx
Member
On a lighter note, would anybody like to see the Guardian's Blind Date feature with politicians? Danny Alexander and Stella Creasy you say? http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/03/political-blind-date-danny-alexander-stella-creasy
You need a bad leader or two in a political party for time to time to allow reinvention. The Tories had it with Hague, IDS and Howard, the purge allowed the Bullingdon crew to come in hugging hoodies and huskies in an attempt to detoxify the brand.
Some would say Labour are currently going through the same process, a shitty leader as an interim to clean up or bury New Labour.
Mainly because he is. When people don't know which way to vote at general elections they tend to stick with what they know. The fact is that Miliband needs his numbers to keep rising and with the way things are set up this time around that's a lot less likely to happen unless Cameron makes a Brown-esque blunder.
No he isn't. Even with the current Scottish situation Labour have a built in bias thanks to Wales and the unequal boundaries meaning generally Labour win 'their' seats with less votes. If Labour are around the 35% mark its exceedingly unlikely that the Tories will get near a majority. Remember in 2005 election 35.2% got Labour 355 seats (as an illustration 40.2% got Major 376 in 92). As its Labour are at about 34%-35% just now and that's with the SNP hiving off about 2% but still acting as an anti Tory bloc.
Incumbency is a factor, but in UK elections it's pretty unheard of for a sitting government to increase seats and vote share. The polling throughout this parliament still indicates it's unlikely the Tories will do either.
Most Tory commentators are still talking about minority government which seems far more likely for Labour (as there are likely more parties willing to conceivably support a Labour queen's speech than Tory).
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
Regardless of your political orientation. The constant low and spiteful attacks on UKIP from the media and mainstream political parties is ridiculous.
Neither facts, argument and in many cases truth are used to attack UKIP.
Take this amazing snippet they have gone off recently.
Farage is 'vile human being' says Murphy
So let's get the facts right here.
The UK is pretty much the only country in the world that so readily and freely treats foreign nationals and tourists. We do not require health insurance for entry and we do not make people pay for treatment.
Take this excerpt from our NHS actual website:
So, basically you have free healthcare. And the world knows about it. Whether you want to believe it's costing us £2 billion or just £200 million ... it is unacceptable to still allow this occur without clamping down and moving us closer to what every other country in the world does ... charge people for the healthcare they do not pay for.
I have to take out travel insurance every time I leave the UK, it's usually like £10 - 20 and it pays up to a few million for my healthcare treatments. I even have to get a European Health Insurance Card if I want healthcare treatment inside the EU which just charges the NHS for my treatment anyway.
Yet anyone and their entire family can just waltz into the UK and exploit our already over-bloated and weak NHS for free.
But no ... to call this out makes you a 'vile human being'. I mean seriously.
Neither facts, argument and in many cases truth are used to attack UKIP.
Take this amazing snippet they have gone off recently.
Farage is 'vile human being' says Murphy
So let's get the facts right here.
The UK is pretty much the only country in the world that so readily and freely treats foreign nationals and tourists. We do not require health insurance for entry and we do not make people pay for treatment.
Take this excerpt from our NHS actual website:
So, basically you have free healthcare. And the world knows about it. Whether you want to believe it's costing us £2 billion or just £200 million ... it is unacceptable to still allow this occur without clamping down and moving us closer to what every other country in the world does ... charge people for the healthcare they do not pay for.
I have to take out travel insurance every time I leave the UK, it's usually like £10 - 20 and it pays up to a few million for my healthcare treatments. I even have to get a European Health Insurance Card if I want healthcare treatment inside the EU which just charges the NHS for my treatment anyway.
Yet anyone and their entire family can just waltz into the UK and exploit our already over-bloated and weak NHS for free.
But no ... to call this out makes you a 'vile human being'. I mean seriously.
JonathanEx
Member
He can disagree with health tourism (although if you care about the facts it probably isn't a great deal anyway), but the way he picked out people with HIV last night in the debate did feel horrible and the response to him was more than justified, I feel.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I'm not actually sure your first paragraph is true any more with the loss of Scotland. English seats narrowly favour the Conservatives and Wales alone is not really enough to make GB as a whole still Labour biased. At GB levels of 35C / 32L / 12U / 10LD / 5 GRN with Scotland set at current polling, Cons win 284, Labour 257. If you keep that, but make it 35L / 32C, then it goes to Con 276, Lab 291. That means Labour have in-built advantage of ~6 seats at the 35% mark (291 to 284), which is obviously not completely fair but it isn't exactly world-changing/
I agree that Jim Murphy went too far. I don't know if his description of Farage is accurate.
Pronunciation: /hjuːmənˈbiːɪŋ/
Definition of human being in English:
noun
A man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.
Pronunciation: /hjuːmənˈbiːɪŋ/
Definition of human being in English:
noun
A man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance.
benjipwns
Banned
Well, you kinda have to by design in a monopoly system. They can use the airports and trains and roads too.
And if they can just waltz in, what's stopping them from waltzing out without paying the bill?
My thoughts on the debate:
Cameron:
Did alright, but should really have done better on the economy given he has a very strong record on this over the last 5 years.
6/10
Sturgeon
Was really good, quite interesting her multiple appeals to the British, rather than Scottish voters.
9/10
Wood
Did alright, probably played quite well in Wales. Was at her best talking about immigration, funnily enough.
7/10
Miliband
Awful. Came across as arrogant and posh in what was actually a quite refreshing mix of people.
2/10
Farage
What a prick. His performance and "lack of PC" might have played well for the anti-establishment people though.
6/10
Clegg
Thought he did alright again. High point was him holding his hands up and admitting failures in a few places, which was met with applause from the audience.
7/10
Bennett
Did pretty well. Not the most gifted of public speakers but did well. Greens are emerging as a kind of English version of SNP/PC (socialist).
7/10
Cameron:
Did alright, but should really have done better on the economy given he has a very strong record on this over the last 5 years.
6/10
Sturgeon
Was really good, quite interesting her multiple appeals to the British, rather than Scottish voters.
9/10
Wood
Did alright, probably played quite well in Wales. Was at her best talking about immigration, funnily enough.
7/10
Miliband
Awful. Came across as arrogant and posh in what was actually a quite refreshing mix of people.
2/10
Farage
What a prick. His performance and "lack of PC" might have played well for the anti-establishment people though.
6/10
Clegg
Thought he did alright again. High point was him holding his hands up and admitting failures in a few places, which was met with applause from the audience.
7/10
Bennett
Did pretty well. Not the most gifted of public speakers but did well. Greens are emerging as a kind of English version of SNP/PC (socialist).
7/10
Stereogatari
Banned
Farage sounds like a British Erdogan (A British Bulldogan?), in that he's giving off a "What bullshit will he say NEXT?" vibe. Erdogan manipulates people using religion, Farage manipulates people using immigration.
Whitechocolatekrispies
Banned
What are you even taking about.
This isn't true though.
NHS is free at the point of need for British residents only. You can't "waltz in" with, say, cancer and expect to receive treatment.
Accident/emergency and family planning is free for anyone. If you are hit by a car, you are treated without emergency workers rummaging through your pockets for insurance papers or ID. If your a tourist and had unprotected sex, you can get a free STI test and treatment, which is arguable in the interests of British residents anyway.
It says right there in your link that you can't, and only limited services are available for non British residents.
Only few countries require health insurance for entry, and this is part of a visa process.
CyclopsRock
Member
The was an article in the Spectator a while back by a doctor saying that whilst health tourism isn't allowed, in practice it's incredibly rare for foreign nationals to actually pay for their care, for various reasons including simply putting them down in the system as British with no permanent address.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Having a healthcare system which can help those in need where their own country can't provide it is to be applauded. "Vile human being" isn't strong enough, and it's disappointing how unwilling the others were to call Farage out on it last night.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Then pay for it out of the foreign aid budget. The NHS budget is already stretched to breaking point.
Wrestlemania
Banned
I don't care how it gets paid for. It's being paid for now and it should continue to be paid for in the future.
As they should of. Lets be realistic thats it easy to offer an optimistic plan, when you will mainly be responsible for spending money allocated to you, rather than take responsibility for the wealth of the entire country.
Stereogatari
Banned
Not to mention the whole "foreigners with HIV" angle he centered his point around.
I'm hearing them talking as much about Britain as they are about their own nations.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Farage's comments on HIV support was gut wrenchingly awful. Fuck that guy.
Thats the point. Its easy to talk about what you would do for the entire nation, when you will never actually be soley responsible for it.
Wrestlemania
Banned
And for those who don't think that saving lives (even foreigners!) isn't a good enough reason, there's this:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/24/medical-tourism-generates-millions-nhs-health
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/24/medical-tourism-generates-millions-nhs-health
So the taxpayers of the UK should fund anyones healthcare without reproach, indefinitely and with impractical measures to reclaim associated costs whereas other countries don't do this?
This gross simplification of not caring how it's funded is no better than Farages' 'fuck 'em' approach
Wrestlemania
Banned
I think at the very least we should continue treating people as we do now and not putting in more restrictions to deny people treatment.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
What a load of complete and total shit. The taxpayers of the UK don't fund anyone's healthcare without reproach. They meet the healthcare costs in one of two situations: a) medically necessary treatment, and b) family planning. Let's examine the alternatives for taking those away; let's say we stop giving medically necessary treatment. What happens is that many foreign people who become seriously ill in this country will put off seeking medical attention for as long as possible to avoid incurring that cost, probably making whatever they're unfortunate enough to have a ton worse.
Do you know what happens when you ignore the deep, throbbing pain in the veins that can come shortly before a full embolism, because you assume it's something minor that you don't want to have to meet the costs for? You stand a pretty good fucking chance of dying from suffocation as the resultant blood clot starves the blood from your lungs. But sure, fine. We'll assume you're a heartless xenophobic cunt who isn't really concerned with that. I mean, stopping all these people dying is probably really expensive, right? No, it's jack shit - 0.06% of the NHS' budget. 0.06%.
Frankly, if you're willing to let more people die or have serious and chronic medical issues because you're not willing to meet that *tiny* cost using some other means, like raising taxes on people who are fortunate enough to be in good shape and wealthy and not have to worry about how terrifying it can be to fall ill in a foreign country, then I think you're a pretty atrocious person, puffed up with the fetid leavings that the Sun smears across our national discourse in an attempt to big up ol' Nigel "not a racist, but a favourite with racists" Farage.
But hey! Good news even for you! We might not need to do even that! 'cause, see, we actually do charge people for non-essential medical care, and because our medical care is actually pretty renowned world-wide, because the last Labour government spent 13 years cleaning off the Conservative shit-stains from when people rich enough to pay for private healthcare and therefore not give a damn about any of the rest of us because dear darling Abigail was cared for by this charming fellow in our personal surgery, doncha know, we actually make money off foreign health tourism!
There's no gross simplification here. There's simply a side which has actually bothered to do some pretty basic research, and a side which has crawled out of the 1960s in a desperate attempt to drag us back to a time when xenophobia, homophobia, and a disregard for anyone beneath them was the flavour du jour. Fuck Farage's "let's allow people with AIDS to die", and fuck anyone that agrees with it. It is a disgusting sentiment.
N7Commander95
Member
Wrestlemania
Banned
You said it better than I ever could.
I agree. Not only is is inhuman, but it's pretty fucking dense to refuse HIV treatment to anyone considering the risk it puts everyone else in.
I was responding to someone who literally said they didn't care how it gets funded. That IS a gross simplification. You raise some good points but replying to me and somehow contextualising what my views are out of my response to something else is dumb.
'Good news even for me' indeed. Jesus. I'm out.
Wrestlemania
Banned
And I responded to you. The idea that people think it would be reasonable for the NHS to no longer cover people in need of treatment for which they would currently be eligible as some sort of woefully misguided cost-cutting measure is abhorrent. I literally do not care where the money to pay for that treatment comes from.
Marc
Member
So you guys are clapping away at someone attacking the individual in this case then making a strawman fallacy? I guess that is why politics is in the shitter, you can't actually say things anymore. And the completely insane idea of wrestlemania to provide free health care to the world suggests he either doesn't pay tax or doesn't manage his own money? Tax is for the country, no one stops charity's operating or you from providing your infinite funds to the world for free health care.
Crab makes the assertion that people want HIV sufferers to die in the streets, instead of calling people a cunt, back that shit up. QUOTE it (I mean real quotes, not made up ones). You know what I heard and heard from others, they talked about travel insurance... something I use when I go to another country strangely enough. And I reckon the same people calling others cunts are doing the same unless you're a complete idiot and want to run up a bill of hundreds of thousands in say America. Even the EU has its own form of insurance (that you can apply for btw in case you aren't aware, often people aren't).
You literally quote Farage as saying let them die, Crab also says "I agree with Farage, let those foreigners die on the streets". Oh no wait, that is a strawman and outright lying. The sentiment was poor, the idea of supply and demand and fixing one side of that is not. It is logical and an easy win to require people to travel here with insurance. Can even set up a zero profit insurance company that people who failed to get insurance before the plane and on entry can purchase at cost. Hell, could even make it a form of oyster card for frequent visitors with discounts on zero claims. Travel insurance is not some anti-HIV sufferer conspiracy ffs. Why Farage felt the need to be specific in that case, I have no clue, maybe easy to grab cost data... but he clearly didn't say anything like let them die. It didn't help the stigma and deserves criticism on that basis, not the complete lies being spewed.
Also Crab, read your own cited article. Foreign visits account for 70 million a year, the 0.06% figure you quote but then in the same paragraph you fail to quote the total figure of 2 billion for short term visitors. Or 1.7% I think?
They 'may' pay tax but not long at all and will not cover their expenses for any real hospital time. As they tend to be short term migrant workers or students, their national insurance contributions would be on the lower end. So basically you lied again. Why?
Crab makes the assertion that people want HIV sufferers to die in the streets, instead of calling people a cunt, back that shit up. QUOTE it (I mean real quotes, not made up ones). You know what I heard and heard from others, they talked about travel insurance... something I use when I go to another country strangely enough. And I reckon the same people calling others cunts are doing the same unless you're a complete idiot and want to run up a bill of hundreds of thousands in say America. Even the EU has its own form of insurance (that you can apply for btw in case you aren't aware, often people aren't).
You literally quote Farage as saying let them die, Crab also says "I agree with Farage, let those foreigners die on the streets". Oh no wait, that is a strawman and outright lying. The sentiment was poor, the idea of supply and demand and fixing one side of that is not. It is logical and an easy win to require people to travel here with insurance. Can even set up a zero profit insurance company that people who failed to get insurance before the plane and on entry can purchase at cost. Hell, could even make it a form of oyster card for frequent visitors with discounts on zero claims. Travel insurance is not some anti-HIV sufferer conspiracy ffs. Why Farage felt the need to be specific in that case, I have no clue, maybe easy to grab cost data... but he clearly didn't say anything like let them die. It didn't help the stigma and deserves criticism on that basis, not the complete lies being spewed.
Also Crab, read your own cited article. Foreign visits account for 70 million a year, the 0.06% figure you quote but then in the same paragraph you fail to quote the total figure of 2 billion for short term visitors. Or 1.7% I think?
Your own source said:
They 'may' pay tax but not long at all and will not cover their expenses for any real hospital time. As they tend to be short term migrant workers or students, their national insurance contributions would be on the lower end. So basically you lied again. Why?
Air Zombie Meat
Member
I have a pretty good idea of why Farage was specific about hiv.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Maybe it flew over some people's head?
I mean, he could have used TB or any number of diseases that can require lengthy treatment in hospital and aren't as prevalent in the UK any more thanks to vaccinations, but his decision to single out HIV was an interesting one and gives valuable insight into his line of thinking.
Or maybe he just had HIV on the brain and it has nothing to do with what with all (well, most) think it was really referring to.
JonathanEx
Member
Telegraph claiming minutes from a meeting say Nicola Sturgeon wants Cameron to be PM.
In other news, the Torygraph definitely not rattled and doing everything they can do make Cameron look good.
In other news, the Torygraph definitely not rattled and doing everything they can do make Cameron look good.
Marc
Member
Could be what is being assumed but he hasn't said it at least, I would hope he doesn't actually want people with HIV to die. And in this context he stated the alternative being health insurance so you would still get treatment.
Until doubt is removed, he has talked about it with regards to immigration policies with referral to the Australian system (which requires medical testing). If you replace the words HIV with Ebola though and you'd get fist pumping hell yeahs, the amount of shit I heard people saying about doctors and nurses coming back infected... people who consider themselves lib dems.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Complains about strawmen fallacies, immediately makes one of his own.
I haven't said anything about providing free health care to the world, only that we should at the very least continue with the eligibility we have now and not introduce additional restrictions. If those restrictions would save us money, which in itself seems debatable based on the various studies which show "health care tourism" is actually generating money for the NHS, then fine. It's money well spent.
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