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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!

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I don't doubt we could have done it better but it's worth remembering that Norway has roughly double the oil production we do and less than 8% of our population. In other words, they produce about 22x the amount of oil per person than the UK does (which is relevant considering it's an asset with a global price). Even if they used our exact methods of production, taxation etc it'd still be vastly more lucrative vis-a-vis the tax base than ours is.
 
What's wrong with living in a council house? It wasn't people living in council houses that caused the last fucking financial crisis ... Unless you believe George Osbourne.
 

Maledict

Member
What's wrong with living in a council house? It wasn't people living in council houses that caused the last fucking financial crisis ... Unless you believe George Osbourne.

Nothing- we desperately need far more councils houses, and at the same time needs to review and get rid of the green belt policy around London. There is a real housing crisis going on in the country right now, and we are building far fewer homes than our population needs.

It's one thing that really annoyed me about the Right to Buy scheme in the 80s, when I read up on it. I'm fine with the principle of the scheme, but councils were legally prevented from investing the money they got from the sale of houses into more council homes. That always stuck me as perverse and an ideological stance that has really harmed the country in the long run.
 
Nothing- we desperately need far more councils houses, and at the same time needs to review and get rid of the green belt policy around London. There is a real housing crisis going on in the country right now, and we are building far fewer homes than our population needs.

It's one thing that really annoyed me about the Right to Buy scheme in the 80s, when I read up on it. I'm fine with the principle of the scheme, but councils were legally prevented from investing the money they got from the sale of houses into more council homes. That always stuck me as perverse and an ideological stance that has really harmed the country in the long run.

They weren't strictly speaking preventing from building more homes. They were prevented from doing anything with the proceeds except paying off their debt, if they had any (local council debt is something of a bigger problem than national debt, since they have very limited tax raising powers and you don't have a Bank of Slough to enact fiscal policy) until they ceased to have debt. Indeed, the effect of this was to almost entirely halt council home building (which also had negative effects for building companies who relied on that bread and butter work to help them through the tough times) and whilst it could be considered an ideological stance, it's perhaps not quite the one you think.
 

tomtom94

Member
Hah, just spotted a little detail in the BBC article about their manifesto. Looks like they've been reading this thread too:

This would "guarantee" that every policy is paid for without additional borrowing and would, in future, require all the major parties to have their tax and spending plans audited by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility before a general election.

The "major parties" qualifier is a bit strange and I feel like it's another step of bureaucracy, but that is quite amusing.
 

benjipwns

Banned
The "major parties" qualifier is a bit strange and I feel like it's another step of bureaucracy, but that is quite amusing.
There are over 400 registered parties in the UK, it's so they only have to evaluate the "serious" parties likely to gain seats or come close.
 
I guess it would stop this last-minute alterations to the manifestos, which in itself might be a good thing (given that, in theory, it's meant to be a plan for the next 5 years).

The latest Speccie podcast was quite interesting; James Forsythe (the political editor) seemed to see the last-minute tinkering to be less about trying to counteract Labour and more about waiting to see what the polls looked like to see if they needed to go with a more risky set of policies or not.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Fucking hell, just found out my constituency (Northampton south) can potentially be won by UKIP. This is according to the yougov nowcast thing. Any chance of that being horrendously inaccurate?
 
Fucking hell, just found out my constituency (Northampton south) can potentially be won by UKIP. This is according to the yougov nowcast thing. Any chance of that being horrendously inaccurate?

"The Fucker, he coming. He coming to your town."

CCFIjkZXIAE1dTU.jpg:large
 

tomtom94

Member
Fucking hell, just found out my constituency (Northampton south) can potentially be won by UKIP. This is according to the yougov nowcast thing. Any chance of that being horrendously inaccurate?

Depends on "potentially", but a glance at may2015 suggests they reckon a CON majority by 3% from Labour. Would be a hell of a swing, UKIP only got 2,000 votes at the last election.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Depends on "potentially", but a glance at may2015 suggests they reckon a CON majority by 3% from Labour. Would be a hell of a swing, UKIP only got 2,000 votes at the last election.

They had ukip down as between 25 and 37% of the vote, same as Labour. I was thinking one or two seats won for ukip wouldn't be so bad, as I want a Labour win. But not mine!
 

Thanks!

This manifesto sets out that we will only lay a Budget before the House of Commons that cuts the deficit every year, which the OBR will independently verify.

I applaud the sentiment but it seems like a dangerous promise to make. What if Greece exits the Eurozone next year or OPEC rock the oil price up to $200 a barrel? These may not be expected but nor are they out of the question; Something could occur that has nothing to do with the UK that causes the UK to go into a (maybe short term) spasm that will necessitate higher spending.

Edit: Jake has a spanner and a half, jesus christ. Page 15.

Edit V2: With Labour, Britain
will continue to have the most competitive rate of Corporation Tax in the G7.

Good!

Edit: Mrk III: "This aim will be supported
by ambitious domestic carbon reduction targets, including a legal target to
remove the carbon from our electricity supply by 2030, and a major drive for
energy efficiency. "

Better crack on with those nuclear plants, boys.
 

kmag

Member
Thanks!



I applaud the sentiment but it seems like a dangerous promise to make. What if Greece exits the Eurozone next year or OPEC rock the oil price up to $200 a barrel? These may not be expected but nor are they out of the question; Something could occur that has nothing to do with the UK that causes the UK to go into a (maybe short term) spasm that will necessitate higher spending.

Edit: Jake has a spanner and a half, jesus christ. Page 15.

Edit V2: With Labour, Britain
will continue to have the most competitive rate of Corporation Tax in the G7.

Good!

Edit: Mrk III: "This aim will be supported
by ambitious domestic carbon reduction targets, including a legal target to
remove the carbon from our electricity supply by 2030, and a major drive for
energy efficiency. "

Better crack on with those nuclear plants, boys.

That budget promise is only marginally worse that Osborne's 2010 promise to eliminate the deficit.
 
That budget promise is only marginally worse that Osborne's 2010 promise to eliminate the deficit.

Sure, but saying "Every year we'll have a budget that cuts the deficit and make sure the OBR signs off on it" sounds like he's setting himself a trap or something.
 
Still mooching through it. So far there's not much for me but then I'm a bastard Tory so I guess that makes sense. This seems suspect though:

Wee Dougie said:
For too long we have failed to provide a system which makes the best use of
the talents of young people. So we will guarantee every school leaver that gets
the grades an apprenticeship.

That seems like a grandiose promise given they're absolutely not in a position to create apprenticeships out of thin air. Yes, they can force it on the public sector, and the private sector as a stipulation for doing public sector work where they hire outside the EU but I dunno, that doesn't sound like much! They need potentially hundreds of thousands of apprenticeships each year (and given apprenticeships often last several years, a lot of these will need to stack). They'll need to offer businesses a really good incentive to do this; If they were sufficiently incentivised right now, they'd be doing it already, so obviously they need something else.

Also, anyone else curious about this "makes the best use of the talents of young people"? Most people straight out of school are basically useless at everything - that's more or less the purpose of apprenticeships, it's to teach them things they can't reasonably be taught at school. This isn't a criticism of school leavers, I just wonder who Dougie thinks he's kidding with that line.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Don't really agree with going all out on reducing the deficit, but at least they'll do better at taxing the right people to get there.
 

Mr Git

Member
It seriously irks me how party pledges for the NHS focus on doctors, nurses and midwives as if these are the three single professions within the service. They aren't. Hospitals in particular hire a huge variety of professionals which are all overworked and have all been on a pay freeze for the last five years.
 

kmag

Member
It seriously irks me how party pledges for the NHS focus on doctors, nurses and midwives as if these are the three single professions within the service. They aren't. Hospitals in particular hire a huge variety of professionals which are all overworked and have all been on a pay freeze for the last five years.

Any pledge which promises X number of Y professionals should be immediately ignored. It's fine when used as an illustrative point i.e that £500 million would allow the NHS to hire Y doctors

But actual promises of hiring X number of professionals is just terrible policy making. It should be up to the NHS itself to spend that money in the best way given the parameters set by the government of the day and current/future clinical need. Nevermind that hiring doctors, nurses and midwives is almost completely reliant on training which in the case of doctors will take longer than the next parliament.

Labour have quite a few real clanging policies.

Their Tuition fees policy is terrible. It's essentially a tax cut to better off graduates. It would be better to keep fees at their current level and either raise the repayment threshold or use the fees system to direct students into needed professions. Like saying Engineers (as an example) get no or lower fees.
 
The arts should belong to
all and be open to all to take part in.

I hate this sort of shit. If you want to be involved in art, go to WH Smith and buy a pad and some felt tips. If you want to see good art, go and support it by watching/listening/experiencing it. The government really has no role in it, imo.
 
Post Nicola Sturgeon and Jim Murphy debate, SNP just doubled its lead over Scottish Labour this month.

http://www.tnsglobal.com/uk/press-release/snp-increases-its-lead-in-latest-tns-poll

More than half of adults in Scotland who are certain to vote in the May 7 general election (52%), said they would vote SNP, against 24% backing Labour. The 28-point lead is nearly double last month’s figure, when the parties scored 46% and 30% respectively. The Conservatives scored 13% (down 1 percentage point), the Liberal Democrats 6% (up 3) and the Greens 3% (down 1). Support for UKIP in Scotland is almost negligible.
 

Mindwipe

Member
Labour manifesto is reasonably mediocre.

But some of it is very, very vague (the security services bit springs to mind), suggesting further issues that there's literally nobody on the Labour front bench who understands technology at all.
 

AGoodODST

Member
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Why wait until 2045? The UN security council is already one of the most baffling, anachronistic features of modern geopolitics. Restricting membership to the 4 countries who won WW2 (i suppose France counts) and the country with 1/4 of the planets population and saying Germany, Japan, Brazil etc are not eligible is just absurd in 2015.

However, when you say the UN is malleable, this doesn't really apply to the UNSC. Numerous people have tried to change the way the security council functions (Kofi Annan among them), yet each attempt has failed precisely because current members don't want to dilute their influence and generally can't agree on what form the changes should have anyway.

It's not really that anachronistic. The world's top five military powers are 1. United States, 2. Russia, 3. China, 4. United Kingdom, 5. France; these are the same five powers (well, switching out Russia for USSR and Communist China for Nationalist China) that were the top five military powers come the end of World War II. Top five powers outright including economics and soft power influence etc is more debatable; Russia probably drops out of that list, and possibly either us or France. Nevertheless, I think it would be very difficult to make a compelling argument for putting the United Kingdom any lower than 6th. Either list is... basically the composition of the United Nations Security Council. Germany, Japan, and Brazil will all find it very difficult to make a compelling argument for why they should replace or join the United Kingdom when they're not militarily comparable to the United Kingdom.

Put it this way: if the United Kingdom had no military right now, and Japan a large one, and Japan came to the United States and said "hey, look, we should really be on the UNSC", all likelihood is that the United States would rather have Japan's gratitude than ours, and would have a quiet diplomatic word with the United Kingdom about gracefully stepping down. And we'd probably accept.
 

Lirlond

Member
Honestly I don't see why Murphy is campaigning up here, the head of Scottish Labour will never be in charge of the UK budget. He can promise nothing. Save your wind for the Holyrood elections, maybe you'll not embarrass yourself there.
 
Not surprising, Murphy is as likable as dog shite. His aggressive and shouty debating style never comes across well.

It will be interesting to see what futher polls say though considering the rise of ScotLabs ultimate straw man, Full Fiscal Autonomy.

Straw man? It's a totally legitimate line of attack; If Scotland gets FFA (just like if they got Independence) they'd need to either raise a lot of taxes, cut a lot of spending or borrow a lot more. There's a large shortfall, because whilst Scotland contributes above average (per head) tax to the exchequer, they also have significantly higher public spending per head. What part of that is a straw man?
 

pootle

Member
Straw man? It's a totally legitimate line of attack; If Scotland gets FFA (just like if they got Independence) they'd need to either raise a lot of taxes, cut a lot of spending or borrow a lot more. There's a large shortfall, because whilst Scotland contributes above average (per head) tax to the exchequer, they also have significantly higher public spending per head. What part of that is a straw man?

The tories would vote against FFA in the commons.
Labour would vote against FFA in the commons
No matter who wins the election FFA can not possibly happen.
 

Cub3h

Banned
Fucking hell, just found out my constituency (Northampton south) can potentially be won by UKIP. This is according to the yougov nowcast thing. Any chance of that being horrendously inaccurate?

Fellow Northampton South here, according to fivethirtyeight the conservatives are leading in the polls here. As far as I know Labour is the second biggest party, I just can't see UKIP getting that huge of a boost once people actually are in the voting booth.

If UKIP do win.. I better try and fly under the radar as an immigrant heh.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Honestly I don't see why Murphy is campaigning up here, the head of Scottish Labour will never be in charge of the UK budget. He can promise nothing. Save your wind for the Holyrood elections, maybe you'll not embarrass yourself there.

Murphy doesn't care about the Holyrood elections. 1) Because he's an MP. 2) Because he'll probably not be the Scottish Labour leader by then.
 
The tories would vote against FFA in the commons.
Labour would vote against FFA in the commons
No matter who wins the election FFA can not possibly happen.

I don't think it's likely but I think it's a bit hopeful to say that it "can not possibly happen" - it being the price of an informal coalition with Eddard (along with Trident moving south) isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
 

AGoodODST

Member
Straw man? It's a totally legitimate line of attack; If Scotland gets FFA (just like if they got Independence) they'd need to either raise a lot of taxes, cut a lot of spending or borrow a lot more. There's a large shortfall, because whilst Scotland contributes above average (per head) tax to the exchequer, they also have significantly higher public spending per head. What part of that is a straw man?

Of course it's a straw man. No main party in Westminster is even offering it. The SNP hadn't mentioned it until Murphy brought it up. Even with every seat in Scotland, the SNP don't have a chance of pushing it though the Commons and they know it.

It was pulled out of thin air simply to give (mainly) Scottish Labour an avenue of attack because they basically have nothing in Scotland and are running out of time.
 

Mr Git

Member
Any pledge which promises X number of Y professionals should be immediately ignored. It's fine when used as an illustrative point i.e that £500 million would allow the NHS to hire Y doctors

But actual promises of hiring X number of professionals is just terrible policy making. It should be up to the NHS itself to spend that money in the best way given the parameters set by the government of the day and current/future clinical need. Nevermind that hiring doctors, nurses and midwives is almost completely reliant on training which in the case of doctors will take longer than the next parliament.

Labour have quite a few real clanging policies.

Their Tuition fees policy is terrible. It's essentially a tax cut to better off graduates. It would be better to keep fees at their current level and either raise the repayment threshold or use the fees system to direct students into needed professions. Like saying Engineers (as an example) get no or lower fees.

Exactly. Politicians have absolutely no idea where the money needs to go so they just spout the professions they think will win people over. Unfortunately even if they did allow the NHS to allocate its own funding it would be up to the business trained managers and executives who have zero fucking clue what they're doing. It should be given to the clinical leads and highly trained staff to allocate. It'll never happen and it'll keep falling into decline and carry on being used for political gain.
 

gerg

Member
I hate this sort of shit. If you want to be involved in art, go to WH Smith and buy a pad and some felt tips. If you want to see good art, go and support it by watching/listening/experiencing it. The government really has no role in it, imo.

Why is it not the job of the government to promote culture and access to it? Should all national galleries be privatised?
 

King_Moc

Banned
Fellow Northampton South here, according to fivethirtyeight the conservatives are leading in the polls here. As far as I know Labour is the second biggest party, I just can't see UKIP getting that huge of a boost once people actually are in the voting booth.

If UKIP do win.. I better try and fly under the radar as an immigrant heh.

I hope you're right, it's genuinely stressed me out. Though another 5 years of the Conservatives would also be a nightmare after how badly they managed to fuck up with public transport here. I shouldn't be that surprised about the ukip thing though, I guess. I remember going into a pub in Duston once with a black guy and the whole place went silent. It was like a scene from a film. I half expected the jukebox to stop playing.
 
Why is it not the job of the government to promote culture and access to it? Should all national galleries be privatised?

Well, it's hard to say why something isn't the case. Why isn't it their job to promote healthy grass, the virtue of red wallpaper or skateboarding over roller blading? You can't really answer this sort of question without simply asking "Well, why is is?" but I'll try anyway.

What culture? What art? If Damien Hirst decides to spend his not-insubstantial fortune on opening an exhibit with a giant dead shark masturbating in front of the telly, that's his prerogative; Would you want the government to use your tax money to do this? Rather than on all the many other things it could go on, like after school clubs or smaller class sizes or more non-job-title-specific NHS workers (holla Mr Git), better equipped fire brigades, better homelessness help etc. This is the yard stick against which we need to measure spending. So what about Damien Hirst?

Or what about my niece's Year 3 Art project with pasta shapes stuck to paper? What about the social club where my neighbour with down syndrome made his first music track which sounds more or less indistinguishable from his dog throwing up in the garden? What about funding a video game where you play the role of a northern Trade Unionist, whose gameplay premise is a series of Quick Time Events whilst you struggle to avoid being beaten by Thatcher's police whilst also trying to throw bricks at scabs? What about a stage play where Murdoch's control over the British media is explored in the form of a ganster-rap/gender-queer electro-acid mashup set to interpretive dance?

Now, maybe every one of these would have some cultural worth. Maybe none of them would. Who's going to decide? Ed mentions he's going to get a council of significant arts figures to help him decide, but does that sound appealing to you? A curated list of government-sponsored art for you to enjoy?

The problem for me is that with these wonderful grants come, basically, goals. They want to increase exposure to these sorts of things to those who currently don't go (ie everyone who isn't an old, white, middle class person, who are the ones that onerwhelmingly benefit the most from having their hobby subsidised by the government). This is such a significant goal that the DCMS actually gave specific goals to museums like the V&A to increase their poor demographic entrants by x% - what do you think this does for the quality of the exhibits? They're already free; If people aren't going, I doubt it's because it's all too simplified and dumbed down. At the end of the day, if kids don't want to go look at paintings or historical exhibits, they won't.

Which leads me to my actual point, which is that basically all people these days consume more media than they ever have before. A whole world of music and television and cinema is available to them at the touch of a button, and all the information and visual stimuli traditionally locked away in museums and galleries is a few keystrokes from their attention. Cinemas continue to make profits (as do many, many theatres btw), as do books and magazines and and and. Gigs have never been more popular, and "events" like the Secret Cinema are routinely sold out. The stuff that people go to - the stuff they actually like - doesn't need government subsidy because people actually like it. The stuff that the government subsidies is, by and large, shit no one likes.

I actually don't care about the money; It's a small amount. I care about the idea of the government convening a council, deciding what "culture" is, packaging it up and sending it out for the masses to enjoy, along with their cake and circuses. Or, rather, it is the circus. What I'd much, much, much rather they did with the same money is to actually put it into better arts education in the first place (where we're utterly shit. Shit shit shit.) so, instead of trying to get people who don't give a shit about Joseph Wright of Derby to go and see his paintings anyway, we cultivate a generation (and beyond) of people to whom this is actually interesting. Do that, and you won't need to subsidise "culture", because we can see from the media they actually enjoy that you don't need to the horse to water to make it drink.

I say all this as someone with a degree in a visual art and who works in the creative industries.
 

gerg

Member
Well, it's hard to say why something isn't the case. Why isn't it their job to promote healthy grass, the virtue of red wallpaper or skateboarding over roller blading? You can't really answer this sort of question without simply asking "Well, why is is?" but I'll try anyway.

What culture? What art? If Damien Hirst decides to spend his not-insubstantial fortune on opening an exhibit with a giant dead shark masturbating in front of the telly, that's his prerogative; Would you want the government to use your tax money to do this? Rather than on all the many other things it could go on, like after school clubs or smaller class sizes or more non-job-title-specific NHS workers (holla Mr Git), better equipped fire brigades, better homelessness help etc. This is the yard stick against which we need to measure spending. So what about Damien Hirst?

Or what about my niece's Year 3 Art project with pasta shapes stuck to paper? What about the social club where my neighbour with down syndrome made his first music track which sounds more or less indistinguishable from his dog throwing up in the garden? What about funding a video game where you play the role of a northern Trade Unionist, whose gameplay premise is a series of Quick Time Events whilst you struggle to avoid being beaten by Thatcher's police whilst also trying to throw bricks at scabs? What about a stage play where Murdoch's control over the British media is explored in the form of a ganster-rap/gender-queer electro-acid mashup set to interpretive dance?

Now, maybe every one of these would have some cultural worth. Maybe none of them would. Who's going to decide? Ed mentions he's going to get a council of significant arts figures to help him decide, but does that sound appealing to you? A curated list of government-sponsored art for you to enjoy?

The problem for me is that with these wonderful grants come, basically, goals. They want to increase exposure to these sorts of things to those who currently don't go (ie everyone who isn't an old, white, middle class person, who are the ones that onerwhelmingly benefit the most from having their hobby subsidised by the government). This is such a significant goal that the DCMS actually gave specific goals to museums like the V&A to increase their poor demographic entrants by x% - what do you think this does for the quality of the exhibits? They're already free; If people aren't going, I doubt it's because it's all too simplified and dumbed down. At the end of the day, if kids don't want to go look at paintings or historical exhibits, they won't.

Which leads me to my actual point, which is that basically all people these days consume more media than they ever have before. A whole world of music and television and cinema is available to them at the touch of a button, and all the information and visual stimuli traditionally locked away in museums and galleries is a few keystrokes from their attention. Cinemas continue to make profits (as do many, many theatres btw), as do books and magazines and and and. Gigs have never been more popular, and "events" like the Secret Cinema are routinely sold out. The stuff that people go to - the stuff they actually like - doesn't need government subsidy because people actually like it. The stuff that the government subsidies is, by and large, shit no one likes.

I actually don't care about the money; It's a small amount. I care about the idea of the government convening a council, deciding what "culture" is, packaging it up and sending it out for the masses to enjoy, along with their cake and circuses. Or, rather, it is the circus. What I'd much, much, much rather they did with the same money is to actually put it into better arts education in the first place (where we're utterly shit. Shit shit shit.) so, instead of trying to get people who don't give a shit about Joseph Wright of Derby to go and see his paintings anyway, we cultivate a generation (and beyond) of people to whom this is actually interesting. Do that, and you won't need to subsidise "culture", because we can see from the media they actually enjoy that you don't need to the horse to water to make it drink.

I say all this as someone with a degree in a visual art and who works in the creative industries.

Unless I missed something in the manifesto which decidedly differentiayed between the two - if I'm honest I only read your post - I would argue that funding arts education is a form of promoting culture.

And although an arts council might be representative of a problematic conceptual split between "art" and "everything else", I imagine that one would invariably play at least some part of that. But sure, I'm up for liberal definitions of culture as well. Opera is one of the most supported art forms by the government and yet regularly has one of the least diverse audiences. There are good arguments to be made that that money could be better spent elsewhere.
 
Unless I missed something in the manifesto which decidedly differentiayed between the two - if I'm honest I only read your post - I would argue that funding arts education is a form of promoting culture.

I don't think so. It's more like how taking a philosophy class isn't about training one to be a Burkean conservative or Hegalian dialectical philosowanker - it's about teaching critical thought, presenting the options and allowing one to make up their own mind. So, too, with art. I didn't have a significant art education but I understand the virtue of various different art styles, mediums etc. I can't stand most of them, but the ones I do like I only really like because I was confronted with them and forced to think. IMO Postmodernism is a load of old piss, but give me a a collection of classic chiaroscuro oil paintings and I'll huff and puff myself into a soggy, seminal pile on the floor. You don't need to teach kids what to like, they'll work it out on their own if you give them the faculties to do it.

And although an arts council might be representative of a problematic conceptual split between "art" and "everything else", I imagine that one would invariably play at least some part of that. But sure, I'm up for liberal definitions of culture as well. Opera is one of the most supported art forms by the government and yet regularly has one of the least diverse audiences. There are good arguments to be made that that money could be better spent elsewhere.

Like teaching kids about Opera! I don't know anyone who was exposed to opera at school (and I went to a decent school in a relatively affluent area). The only people who are exposed to it are, I think, those exposed to it through their families.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ead-guardian-icm-poll-labour?CMP=share_btn_tw

A new Guardian/ICM poll has produced a surprise Conservative lead of six points, taking David Cameron’s party to 39% with Labour on 33%.

While most recent polls show the race is tied or that Labour is in a slight lead, the telephone poll conducted between Friday and Sunday reports that the Conservatives have gained three points while Labour is down by two points in the last month.

ICM’s figures say that support for the Liberal Democrats is unchanged, on 8%. Ukip drops back two points to 7%, which leaves them tied for fourth place with the Green party, who are also on 7%, recovering by three points after having fallen to just 4% in March.

The day the polls turned...
 

gerg

Member
I don't think so. It's more like how taking a philosophy class isn't about training one to be a Burkean conservative or Hegalian dialectical philosowanker - it's about teaching critical thought, presenting the options and allowing one to make up their own mind. So, too, with art. I didn't have a significant art education but I understand the virtue of various different art styles, mediums etc. I can't stand most of them, but the ones I do like I only really like because I was confronted with them and forced to think. IMO Postmodernism is a load of old piss, but give me a a collection of classic chiaroscuro oil paintings and I'll huff and puff myself into a soggy, seminal pile on the floor. You don't need to teach kids what to like, they'll work it out on their own if you give them the faculties to do it.

I'm a bit confused by your point. Funding arts education wouldn't necessarily teach critical thought, present options and allow students to make up their own minds? I would also argue that arts education intrinsically promotes the cultural value of art by presenting it as something worthy to be educated about. There may be problems with how art is taught but that doesn't mean that arts education isn't in itself worthwhile (as I thought you were suggesting before).
 

tomtom94

Member

Conducting it Friday to Sunday means it coincides with the Tories' announcements about the NHS and so on, so I think this sentence:

If the polling proves accurate, it will mean Lynton Crosby’s strategy of focusing the Tory campaign narrowly on the twin themes of leadership and the economy is beginning to pay handsome dividends.

is a bit off, if anything the Conservative decision to go all out on the spending plans is what will have changed people's minds.

I don't think Labour will be too concerned until the Conservative manifesto is released, seeing as right now they have most of the attention and a lot of positive headlines, but that is interesting, shows there's still everything to play for.
 
Oh my. 39 points and a 6 point lead for the Tories on the Gold Standard. I don't know what to believe any more.

I still think the Tories are having a poor campaign, but the polling shows different.
 
I'm a bit confused by your point. Funding arts education wouldn't necessarily teach critical thought, present options and allow students to make up their own minds? I would also argue that arts education intrinsically promotes the cultural value of art by presenting it as something worthy to be educated about. There may be problems with how art is taught but that doesn't mean that arts education isn't in itself worthwhile (as I thought you were suggesting before).

Oh no, I'm suggesting exactly the opposite - that arts education funding is the best use of that money. There's not much in terms of specifics in the manifesto, but going on Labour's history of stuffing the arts council with its friends and a fair bit of dosh, it's that I have a problem with. Given the manifesto says "The arts should belong to all and be open to all to take part in," I'm not holding out hope this will change. Personally I'd see the Arts Council scrapped entirely and all the money put into proper arts education, as young as possible.
 

kmag

Member
Oh my. 39 points and a 6 point lead for the Tories on the Gold Standard. I don't know what to believe any more.

I still think the Tories are having a poor campaign, but the polling shows different.

It's one poll. A poll which has UKIP at 7% which frankly doesn't seem believable. ICM may be the goldstandard (that's debatable by the way) but they're still susceptible to the odd outlier. This looks to be as much an outlier as the two huge Labour leads last friday. Even ICM reckon the sample may have been a "touch too tory"

Discussing the result, Martin Boon, of ICM Unlimited, said: “There is inevitably random variation between different polls, which generally falls within a ‘margin of error’ of plus or minus three points. The movement we’ve recorded since the March survey is within that normal bound, albeit only just.”

Boon said the sample chosen looks “demographically sound”, but acknowledges there are signs in the raw data that this sample “could be a just touch too Tory”. In particular, there are more 2010 Conservative voters than ICM would ordinarily expect, and also more voters from the professional occupational grade.
 
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