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Media Create Sales 2/26 - 3/4

Neomoto

Member
Eteric Rice said:
True, but I doubt Nintendo is going to stand still while they're developing home. I expect both Microsoft and Nintendo will have their own answers to it in the future.
I think Nintendo already HAS a answer to Home actually ;) It's called their WiiConnect24/Mii/Channel thingie. It has universal appeal and everyone seem to love it. And they can expand it with whatever they want, which they are already doing :)


Too bad for Heroes of Mana, but to be honest the game didn't look to good from all the media I've seen. I'm sure FF XII: RW will do great, so SE can get back to ranking in the profits again (or continuing it). Great first day sales for Yoshi's Island DS, the game is pretty good in my opinion, so it deserves it.

Btw, does anyone know when the next "big" game for Wii and PS3 come out?
 

Ryu1999

Member
Neomoto said:
I think Nintendo already HAS a answer to Home actually ;) It's called their WiiConnect24/Mii/Channel thingie. It has universal appeal and everyone seem to love it.

Reggie, is that you? Seriously, Nintendo's done everything right EXCEPT online (so far)
 

Hcoregamer00

The 'H' stands for hentai.
Masklinn said:
mutlitrack_drifting.png

:lol :lol

I am sorry, that is just damn funny.

If you want a good manga abour drifting check out Over Rev. It is about a girl who gets into drifting after injuring her leg in a track race. Not only that, the people actually look halfway decent.
 

Pusha

Banned
Eteric Rice said:
I doubt HOME or LBP is going to turn the PS3 around.

What WOULD is some good games, good PR, and a price drop. With every week, Nintendo's lead grows, so they need to get on it.

Why would Nintendo's lead have any bearing on how the industry responds to the PS3? They're not even competing with one another. Is it so ungraspable a concept that you all can't see that the 360/PS3 and Wii are in two completely different markets? Providers know there is a growing hunger for next-gen gaming, one that will be sated when millions of PS2/Xbox/GCN users switch over to the next-gen platforms. Some of you act as if the performance of the 360 and PS3 in Japan is going to affect how developers allot their resources towards projects slated for those platforms. Developers aren't going to allow the Wii's lead to compromise their next-gen focus. With the power afforded them, why would developers look backwards, neglecting the 360/PS3, and devote the bulk of their talent to Nintendo's system?
 

Evlar

Banned
Neomoto said:
I think Nintendo already HAS a answer to Home actually ;) It's called their WiiConnect24/Mii/Channel thingie. It has universal appeal and everyone seem to love it. And they can expand it with whatever they want, which they are already doing :)


Too bad for Heroes of Mana, but to be honest the game didn't look to good from all the media I've seen. I'm sure FF XII: RW will do great, so SE can get back to ranking in the profits again (or continuing it). Great first day sales for Yoshi's Island DS, the game is pretty good in my opinion, so it deserves it.

Btw, does anyone know when the next "big" game for Wii and PS3 come out?
Next big Wii game is Super Paper Mario, expected April 19 in Japan. That could be gigantic, or not, depends on whether the NSMB fans recognize it as the next 2.5D Mario platformer and migrate over.

Next big PS3 game... Minna no Golf I guess? In June.
 

Jiggy

Member
Pusha said:
Why would Nintendo's lead have any bearing on how the industry responds to the PS3? They're not even competing with one another. Is it so ungraspable a concept that you all can't see that the 360/PS3 and Wii are in two completely different markets? Providers know there is a growing hunger for next-gen gaming, one that will be sated when millions of PS2/Xbox/GCN users switch over to the next-gen platforms. Some of you act as if the performance of the 360 and PS3 in Japan is going to affect how developers allot their resources towards projects slated for those platforms. Developers aren't going to allow the Wii's lead to compromise their next-gen focus. With the power afforded them, why would developers look backwards, neglecting the 360/PS3, and devote the bulk of their talent to Nintendo's system?
Money.
 

Pusha

Banned
Jiggy37 said:

I know the bills must be paid, but this is also an artform, and I think many developers would be pissed off if they had to focus on the Wii. You read the interviews, and see how excited these guys are to have the technology housed within both the 360 and the PS3. They're now affrded an opportunity to weave magic that was previously only possible in their dreams. They're not going to pass up on that, especially when most gamers, imo, aren't going to take too kindly to seeing last-gen visuals 3 years into the Wii's lifespan.
 

Jiggy

Member
Pusha said:
I know the bills must be paid, but this is also an artform, and I think many developers would be pissed off if they had to focus on the Wii. You read the interviews, and see how excited these guys are to have the technology housed within both the 360 and the PS3. They're now affrded an opportunity to weave magic that was previously only possible in their dreams. They're not going to pass up on that, especially when most gamers, imo, aren't going to take too kindly to seeing last-gen visuals 3 years into the Wii's lifespan.
Well, yeah, there are always the developers who want to create stunning physics, stunning AI, stunning graphics, etc., but then there are the developers who don't have the resources to be creating such projects anyway.

As much as I hate to think it, most video game hardware is probably sold so people can buy its shovelware, or if not shovelware then at least mediocre products, slightly above-average products, etc. If a high-end game like Final Fantasy X sold 10 million copies, or whatever, that's something like 100 million PS2 owners who bought it for some other reason. If PS3 can't draw in the sorts of developers who can't or won't create high-end games, then that gives the system less appeal to the types who don't care about whether games push the hardware--and less appeal to a diverse group of gamers means less sales, and less sales means fewer other developers putting their games on the system, and then that means even less appeal, etc.
 

felipeko

Member
Pusha said:
I know the bills must be paid, but this is also an artform, and I think many developers would be pissed off if they had to focus on the Wii. You read the interviews, and see how excited these guys are to have the technology housed within both the 360 and the PS3. They're now affrded an opportunity to weave magic that was previously only possible in their dreams. They're not going to pass up on that, especially when most gamers, imo, aren't going to take too kindly to seeing last-gen visuals 3 years into the Wii's lifespan.
Oh yeah, i remember a Kojima interview when asked about lack of HD on wii..
and his answer was:
"We're not the ones who are saying we want HD. I'm not interested, myself, about HD at all."

You know, Wii is capable of games with great art and design, enough for most people and developers...
You're fooling yourself if you think it isn't all about the money.
PS2 was the weakest and the main plataform for years... (and they always have pc to develop for)
 

farnham

Banned
Pusha said:
I know the bills must be paid, but this is also an artform, and I think many developers would be pissed off if they had to focus on the Wii. You read the interviews, and see how excited these guys are to have the technology housed within both the 360 and the PS3. They're now affrded an opportunity to weave magic that was previously only possible in their dreams. They're not going to pass up on that, especially when most gamers, imo, aren't going to take too kindly to seeing last-gen visuals 3 years into the Wii's lifespan.


so Leonardo Davinci was unable to make wonderful art because the technology back then su***


rrriiiight
 

linsivvi

Member
Pusha said:
I know the bills must be paid, but this is also an artform, and I think many developers would be pissed off if they had to focus on the Wii. You read the interviews, and see how excited these guys are to have the technology housed within both the 360 and the PS3. They're now affrded an opportunity to weave magic that was previously only possible in their dreams. They're not going to pass up on that, especially when most gamers, imo, aren't going to take too kindly to seeing last-gen visuals 3 years into the Wii's lifespan.

Sigh. You are going to get laughed out of the house, dude.
 

Eteric Rice

Member
This reminds me of something Bryan Singer said (Director of X-Men, X-Men 2, Superman Returns, The Usual Suspects). For movies like X-Men, and The Usual Suspects, they had a very small budget to work with. But he considered that a good thing, as it made then focus more on making the movie the best they could.

Hence the popularity of the Usual Suspects and X-Men.

I think the Wii will really seperate the good, skilled developers, from the shoddy ones.
 

ITA84

Member
farnham said:
so Leonardo Davinci was unable to make wonderful art because the technology back then su***


rrriiiight

You probably chose a bad example, since Leonardo himself worked on advancing technology. :)
 
Pusha said:
most gamers, imo, aren't going to take too kindly to seeing last-gen visuals 3 years into the Wii's lifespan.

Take a look at what sells best--it's clearly not about the visuals. Some gamers and some developers are very into technology, but there are a lot more who aren't.

I'm all over the Wii, and the PS3, because I belong to both groups--I love fun games and graphical achievement. But the fun is necessary, the graphics are just bonus.
 

Pusha

Banned
Leondexter said:
Take a look at what sells best--it's clearly not about the visuals. Some gamers and some developers are very into technology, but there are a lot more who aren't.

I'm all over the Wii, and the PS3, because I belong to both groups--I love fun games and graphical achievement. But the fun is necessary, the graphics are just bonus.

Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right? Wait. Gamers want the leap that the Wii doesn't offer. Likewise, I think developers, too, want that same leap, as they appreciate the games as much as we do. You're right, in that many developers aren't, but I suspect most want to marry new control schemes with the leap in visuals that accompany a truly new generation of consoles.

I'm just afraid that developers, prodded by their greedy publishers, will find themselves separated from the door that the technology behind the 360/PS3 has opened. Imagine if Konami had made Kojima put MGS on Wii instead of PS3, or Square had forced developers to put FFXIII on the system. Do you really think that's good for gamers?
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
Pusha said:
Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right?
Yeah, that probably had more to do with the new games that came out for them, while the PSOne's support began to dry up.

You're putting way too much importance on graphics.


EDIT -
Pusha said:
Gamers want the leap that the Wii doesn't offer.
Which gamers? The ones that are buying way more Wii's than PS3's or 360's?
 

andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
Pusha said:
Why would Nintendo's lead have any bearing on how the industry responds to the PS3? They're not even competing with one another. Is it so ungraspable a concept that you all can't see that the 360/PS3 and Wii are in two completely different markets? Providers know there is a growing hunger for next-gen gaming, one that will be sated when millions of PS2/Xbox/GCN users switch over to the next-gen platforms. Some of you act as if the performance of the 360 and PS3 in Japan is going to affect how developers allot their resources towards projects slated for those platforms. Developers aren't going to allow the Wii's lead to compromise their next-gen focus. With the power afforded them, why would developers look backwards, neglecting the 360/PS3, and devote the bulk of their talent to Nintendo's system?
You fell into the same trap that Sony fell into. They started to believe that shit that Nintendo spews about being in a different market. So Sony decided they were the best and could charge 600 dollars for a console. Totally different market. A non-existant market.

Bottom line: they are still videogame consoles. Same market. That shit may apply to consoles vs handhelds but the Wii, PS3 and 360 are in the same market. Different values and goals and attributes but same market. They are directly competing but just have different values and beliefs. It's a load of shit when they are competing for the same devs and products to assume it's different markets. This isn't business school; it's common sense. The average joe says, 'What videogame system am I'm going to buy; Wii, PS3 or 360?' Only us forum douches break it down into HD or non-HD. But we are only probably 15% of the market. The casual, Looney Toon buying public represents the vast majority. And they still see it as just games.

Different market my ass; that's just a great handjob by Nintendo to get Sony to believe that shit.
 

felipeko

Member
Pusha said:
Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right? Wait. Gamers want the leap that the Wii doesn't offer. Likewise, I think developers, too, want that same leap, as they appreciate the games as much as we do. You're right, in that many developers aren't, but I suspect most want to marry new control schemes with the leap in visuals that accompany a truly new generation of consoles.

I'm just afraid that developers, prodded by their greedy publishers, will find themselves separated from the door that the technology behind the 360/PS3 has opened. Imagine if Konami had made Kojima put MGS on Wii instead of PS3, or Square had forced developers to put FFXIII on the system. Do you really think that's good for gamers?
Oh really?
So we did change to Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox just for prettier graphics?
And we gonna do this over and over again while they show better graphics?
Nice to know that.

A hint: New experience.
 
Pusha said:
Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right? Wait. Gamers want the leap that the Wii doesn't offer. Likewise, I think developers, too, want that same leap, as they appreciate the games as much as we do. You're right, in that many developers aren't, but I suspect most want to marry new control schemes with the leap in visuals that accompany a truly new generation of consoles.

I'm just afraid that developers, prodded by their greedy publishers, will find themselves separated from the door that the technology behind the 360/PS3 has opened. Imagine if Konami had made Kojima put MGS on Wii instead of PS3, or Square had forced developers to put FFXIII on the system. Do you really think that's good for gamers?

This is a self-defeating argument. The 360 and PS3 will be antiquated within a couple years, in terms of cutting edge power and graphics. If developers -- or "artists," as you say -- require only the most advanced tools, they will all be developing for the PC by 2009.
 

Joe Molotov

Member
Pusha said:
Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right? Wait. Gamers want the leap that the Wii doesn't offer. Likewise, I think developers, too, want that same leap, as they appreciate the games as much as we do. You're right, in that many developers aren't, but I suspect most want to marry new control schemes with the leap in visuals that accompany a truly new generation of consoles.

I'm just afraid that developers, prodded by their greedy publishers, will find themselves separated from the door that the technology behind the 360/PS3 has opened. Imagine if Konami had made Kojima put MGS on Wii instead of PS3, or Square had forced developers to put FFXIII on the system. Do you really think that's good for gamers?

250px-NintendoDS_Warm.jpg


250px-PSP_top.png
 
Pusha said:
Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right?

No, it's like we stuck with DS and ignore the PSP.

I'd consider the 1996-era DS graphics to be a greater liability than Wii's 2001-2001 graphics. And that obviously doesn't matter to the market at large.

And no one is going to look at Mario Galaxy and think it looks like balls.

BTW, people stuck with PSone for two years after Dreamcast launched (and died).
 

linsivvi

Member
That's why I love media create threads. First we had the PSP better than iPod and now we have game developers considered as artists and having artistic integrity. What's next?
 
I hate to say this Pusha, cuz your heart is in the right place, but in the eternal battle between art and money, money is going to win every time for 99.99% of developers. Only the already highly wealthy that are doing it for the satisfaction alone would choose 'art' without money over money without 'art'. A sad fact of life, but one that means the console-not-chosen only gets minimal support (the big fish in the small pond who find money by targeting the audience that has bought the system).

Sony had best hope it does not come to this type of choice for third parties.
 

farnham

Banned
ITA84 said:
You probably chose a bad example, since Leonardo himself worked on advancing technology. :)
yeah he did

but what his designs were things that the society back then never thought about...

tanks, helicopters and what not.. he was innovating and creating something completely new rather then making preexisting things a little bit better..
 

farnham

Banned
Segata Sanshiro said:
I hate to say this Pusha, cuz your heart is in the right place, but in the eternal battle between art and money, money is going to win every time for 99.99% of developers. Only the already highly wealthy that are doing it for the satisfaction alone would choose 'art' without money over money without 'art'. A sad fact of life, but one that means the console-not-chosen only gets minimal support (the big fish in the small pond who find money by targeting the audience that has bought the system).

Sony had best hope it does not come to this type of choice for third parties.


its wrong to say that a product cant be art in the first place..

any work of art was a product when it was created..

either for the own satisfaction of the creator or for other people

it didnt happen in a mass production kind of way like today

but i think we can only say in retrospective if something is art or not.. (and by retrospective i mean a very long time)
 

gkryhewy

Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
I hate to say this Pusha, cuz your heart is in the right place, but in the eternal battle between art and money, money is going to win every time for 99.99% of developers.

You imply (ridiculously in my opinion) that MGS4 or FFXIII are inherently more 'artful' than DQIX on DS will be, or FFXIV on Wii (haha). The Wii interface opens new artistic possibilities just as more horsepower does.
 
farnham said:
its wrong to say that a product cant be art in the first place..

any work of art was a product when it was created..

either for the own satisfaction of the creator or for other people

it didnt happen in a mass production kind of way like today

but i think we can only say in retrospective if something is art or not.. (and by retrospective i mean a very long time)

I think it was rather obvious by the wording of my post that I was positing one without the other. Obviously in reality it's nearly impossible to separate one from the other, but in terms of meta-analysis, it's a useful widget.

gkrykewy said:
You imply (ridiculously in my opinion) that MGS4 or FFXIII are inherently more 'artful' than DQIX on DS will be, or FFIX on Wii (haha).

I really don't see how my imaginary constructs implied any such thing. I'm sorry you inferred as such.
 

gkryhewy

Member
I really don't see how my imaginary constructs implied any such thing. I'm sorry you inferred as such.

Your entire post was agreeing with Pusha's sentiment that artful expression on PS360 might be sacrificed for cash-ins on Wii.
 
farnham said:
yeah he did

but what his designs were things that the society back then never thought about...

tanks, helicopters and what not.. he was innovating and creating something completely new rather then making preexisting things a little bit better..

Further Leonardo never worked on new artistic techniques and technology. The example is perfectly apt since the discussion concerns artistic development.
 
gkrykewy said:
Your entire post was agreeing with Pusha's sentiment that artful expression on PS360 might be sacrificed for cash-ins on Wii.

No, my entire post was meant to knock down the assertion that a developer would choose art-without-money over money-without-art. I never mentioned Sony once except to say that if they ended up in such a situation, it would be the bad end of the stick for them. Maybe I should talk in pictures from now on?
 

farnham

Banned
Segata Sanshiro said:
I think it was rather obvious by the wording of my post that I was positing one without the other. Obviously in reality it's nearly impossible to separate one from the other, but in terms of meta-analysis, it's a useful widget.



I really don't see how my imaginary constructs implied any such thing. I'm sorry you inferred as such.


oh i wasnt really criticizing your post..

more the one of pusher actually...

and you guys have to acknowledge that all the discussion as games as a product or artform are only a marketing strategy from each company..

sony did not think much as an artist of themselves when they entered the business

their strength was to publish games and distribute them well...

Nintendo was trying to convince the hardcore audience

now somehow the position is reversed..

but that only means that Nintendo is the aggressor while Sony is the defender right now..

Sonys job in the market is to convince the hardcore audience.. only then they can market towards other audiences

Nintendo apperantly has already convinced their hardcore userbase looking at Zelda TP sales and the games that sell on the DS.. they are aggressively pushing their games to the mainstream now..

and if they do, they must convince people with different tastes.. the artist argument does not work anymore in this market.. hence they are using terms like entertainment (for a broader appeal)
 
Pusha said:
Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right?
PSP emulation says hi. People list it as a strong selling point, and PSP software sales are crap, so they must be choosing the old stuff over the new stuff.

Also, as pointed out, there's the whole fact of DS kicking PSP's butt and Wii currently outselling the PS3 and 360. Your argument is contradicted by reality.
 

farnham

Banned
Rancid Mildew said:
Further Leonardo never worked on new artistic techniques and technology. The example is perfectly apt since the discussion concerns artistic development.


im not sure if the Fresco style was invented by him..

but it was not where his main focus was
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Pusha said:
Why would Nintendo's lead have any bearing on how the industry responds to the PS3? They're not even competing with one another. Is it so ungraspable a concept that you all can't see that the 360/PS3 and Wii are in two completely different markets? Providers know there is a growing hunger for next-gen gaming, one that will be sated when millions of PS2/Xbox/GCN users switch over to the next-gen platforms. Some of you act as if the performance of the 360 and PS3 in Japan is going to affect how developers allot their resources towards projects slated for those platforms. Developers aren't going to allow the Wii's lead to compromise their next-gen focus. With the power afforded them, why would developers look backwards, neglecting the 360/PS3, and devote the bulk of their talent to Nintendo's system?

:lol :lol

You new around here? You act like this is a ****ing hobby. ITS A BUSINESS.
 
Rancid Mildew said:
Further Leonardo never worked on new artistic techniques and technology. The example is perfectly apt since the discussion concerns artistic development.
Lol, what? He invented sfumato, among other things.
 

Ronok

Member
I know the bills must be paid, but this is also an artform, and I think many developers would be pissed off if they had to focus on the Wii. You read the interviews, and see how excited these guys are to have the technology housed within both the 360 and the PS3. They're now affrded an opportunity to weave magic that was previously only possible in their dreams. They're not going to pass up on that, especially when most gamers, imo, aren't going to take too kindly to seeing last-gen visuals 3 years into the Wii's lifespan.

No it's pretty much all about money......

Which is why we stuck with the PSone and ignored the Dreamcast/PS2/Cube/Xbox, right? Wait. Gamers want the leap that the Wii doesn't offer. Likewise, I think developers, too, want that same leap, as they appreciate the games as much as we do. You're right, in that many developers aren't, but I suspect most want to marry new control schemes with the leap in visuals that accompany a truly new generation of consoles.

I'm just afraid that developers, prodded by their greedy publishers, will find themselves separated from the door that the technology behind the 360/PS3 has opened. Imagine if Konami had made Kojima put MGS on Wii instead of PS3, or Square had forced developers to put FFXIII on the system. Do you really think that's good for gamers?

Actually support dried up on older consoles as newer consoles gained more sales.... Once again it's all about the money. ;)

Most developers don't have too much of a choice... That's why they need the publishers in the first place. :-/
 

farnham

Banned
Phife Dawg said:
Lol, what? He invented sfumato, among other things.


this is wayy off topic.. but


Davincis inventions



Jack: Since the lifting of weights is one ofthe most common problems of the engineer and mechanic, Leonardo gave it much study, designing devices using the principle ofthe pulley, the screw, and, as here, the ratchet in a form that anticipates the modern automobile jack.

File Cutter: Though there is no record that such a machine was built, it is workable in principle. It involves two ideas significant for the future: first, the use of a threaded shaft to control automatically the movement of the file blank so that it may be evenly scored by the trip-hammer, and second, the use of a falling weight as a source of power. The latter is a clockwork mechanism here applied to an industrial use. Therefore the machine represents a step toward automation, an idea that recurs in Leonardo's notebooks, but was not to be realized for centuries.

Spring-Driven Car: It is doubtful that any such vehicle was ever constructed. Though springs had been known since ancient times, their use to supply power first appeared in clocks and watches made after Leonardo's time. He recognized their potential usefulness in such theoretical designs as this, and in a drawing for a flying machine in which springs were intended to provide an aid to manpower.

Automatic Turnspit: Such devices were known in various automatic and semiautomatic forms since ancient times. In this version Leonardo shows his knowledge of the principle of convection, since the spit turns through the action of the rising hot air on the fan set in the chimney flue. In another turnspit he applied the clockwork mechanism of the falling weight to turn the spit, using a fan vaned with goose feathers as a governor.

Roller Bearings: Leonardo carried out many experiments with friction, including a transmission system. He found that roller bearings, as here applied to the revolving axle of a wagon, were excellent "friction removers," a function they continue to fulfill in many different situations.

Gear Study: Drawings of gear systems recur throughout Leonardo's notebooks, often, as here, theoretical rather than applicable to a specific device. Similar systems to this later appeared in clocks and clock-like mechanisms, and variations of them are in common use today.

Wire-Testing Device: Like modern scientists and engineers, Leonardo wanted as precise information as possible about the properties and capacities of materials so that they could be used more effectively and economically. By weighing the basket after the breaking of the wire had automatically shut off the flow of sand he could determine the tensile strength of the wire.

Printing Press: Gutenberg is generally credited with the invention of the printing press nearly a half century earlier, in about 1448, but Leonardo seems to have been the first to attempt a basic improvement by making it potentially possible for one man to operate it instead of several. A turn of the screw draws both type bed and paper under the platen and supplies the pressure to print, while a reverse turn releases the bed. The first practical applications of such improvements had to await the early 17th century.

Variable Speed Drive: Another theoretical gear system that anticipates a number of modern applications. By meshing the three cogged wheels of different diameters to the same lantern wheel, three different speeds of rotation result, a principle used in the transmission of the modern automobile.

Hydraulic Screw: By encasing a waterwheel, the water turbine was developed in the early 19th century. Leondardo's horizontal impluse wheel, driven by the weight of falling water, and his hydraulic screw were important steps in this direction. Like the turbine, the hydraulic screw works with greater efficiency and a smaller water supply than the older overshot or undershot type waterwheels.

Spindle-Shaped Hull: Intensive study of the action of water and the shapes of fish led Leonardo to design hulls of greater stability and less friction &127;than the round-bottomed vessels then generally in use, and somewhat similar to certain sections of mod em racing hulls. Each side of the model illustrates a different design, each developed from an experi mental and functional point of view similar to that of modern engineering and marine architecture.

Double-Hulled Ship: If the outer hull of such a vessel were damaged, either by enemy action in time of war, or by reefs or floating wreckage, the inner hull, still intact, would keep the ship afloat. In more recent times both double hulls and the division of the interior of the vessel into separate compartments by watertight bulkheads have carried Leonardo's ideas toward still greater safety at sea.

Two Level Bridge: In reserving the upper level for pedestrians and the lower for vehicles, Leonardo used the same idea for traffic control that appears in his plans for an ideal city in which entire streets were thus restricted. The truss is similar to a type used in bridges since the early 19th century.

Rotating Bridge: Designed to connect an island stronghold with the mainland, this bridge could be swung across a stream or moat and back again by means of windlasses. Swing bridges have proven to be practical only in relatively short spans.

Flying Machine: This early design called for a wooden framework and two movable wings to be activated by the aviator who lies prone in the framework, and works the wings by pulleys connected with stirrups moved with his feet, aided by the windlass worked by his hands and arms. In later designs, often with more than a single pair of wings, Leonardo has the operator standing upright.

Helicopter: Leonardo was fascinated with the form of the spiral which often appears in nature, and is involved in the principle of the screw. His helicopter takes the form of an aerial screw, following the example of a device earlier brought to Europe from the Far East in the form of a children's toy. Of his design for the helicopter he wrote, "If this instrument made with a screw be well made - that is to say, made of linen of which the pores are stopped up with starchÑand be turned swiftly, the said screw will make its spiral in the air and it will rise high."

Parachute: "If a man have a tent made of linen of which the apertures have all been stopped up, and it be twelve braccia across and twelve in depth," Leonardo wrote, "he will be able to throw himself down from any great height without suffering any injury."

Scaling Ladder: To reach the top of the wall of an enemy fortress, Leonardo designed this scaling ladder in a form similar to that employed today in fire-fighting apparatus. It is elevated and lowered by means of the crank and the large toothed gear.

Triple-Tier Machine Gun: There are eleven barrels in each tier. While one is fired, another tier is loaded, and the third cools. This weapon, like others Leonardo designed, shows him constantly attempting to achieve greater fire power.

Military Tank: Leonardo designed this ancestral version of the tank to carry heavy fire power and be driven by men working the enclosed wheels with cranks. Its turtle-like cover was intended to deflect enemy fire. "These," he wrote, "take the place of the elephants. One may tilt with them. One may hold bellows in them to spread terror among the horses of the enemy, and one may put carabineers them to break up every company."

Hygrometer: The humidity of the atmosphere may be determined by measuring the imbalance caused by the absorption of moisture by the cotton, which, wwen dry, is equal to the weight on the other side of the scale. Leonardo spent much time studying the atmosphere both as an artist and as a scientist, recording in drawings many of the effects he observed.

Odometer: Leonardo often made maps, both for military purposes and for canal construction. He therefore designed several distance-recording devices, including a pendulum type pedometer and the odometer. The latter is one of several variations on an instrument described by the Roman architect and engineer, Vitruvius, whose works were rediscovered early in the Renaissance. It was geared to drop a pellet into a box for a given number of revolutions of a wheel, thus computing the distance traveled.

Inclinometer: Leonardo always sought the greatest possible accuracy, and therefore was constantly designing devices for measurement, such as this instrument to determine the degree of incline of a given surface by the relation of the plumb bob to the concentric scale inscribed below its mounting. The accurate figuring of slight gradients was of great importance in laying out canals.

Anemometer: A device for measuring the force of the wind by reading on the quadrant scale the highest point to which the vane, hinged at the top, is blown. "The air," Leonardo wrote, "moves like a river and carries the clouds with it, just as running water carries all the things that float upon it."

Clock: For greater accuracy, Leonardo designed a clock mechanism with two separate trains, one for minutes and the other for hours, each complete with escapement, gears, and weight. Weight-driven mechanisms had been associated with clocks for so long that they had come to be regarded as exclusively for this purpose, but Leonardo used them for the increased automation of other machines, such as his file cutter. Clocks registering both hours and minutes had become sufficiently accurate during the 15th century so that they were even occasionally used in astronomical observations. It may be that Leonardo had some such purpose in mind when he designed his dual train mechanism. Real accuracy in clocks was not achieved until the use of the pendulum as a regulating device in the 17th century, yet Leonardo made a drawing of just such a device in a form applicable to clockwork.

http://www.lib.stevens-tech.edu/collections/davinci/inventions/



and yeah the fresco style is keaping the jobs of many restauration engineers
 

Jiggy

Member
Pusha said:
Imagine if Konami had made Kojima put MGS on Wii instead of PS3, or Square had forced developers to put FFXIII on the system. Do you really think that's good for gamers?
This is less directed at you than at the principle in general, but actually, it could be good for gamers in one sense: affordability. Suppose I'm someone who decides that MGS4 is a must-have, and that I'll pay $600 to buy a PS3 for that game alone. That would mean I'd have $660 less to spend on other games that I could have bought instead. Opportunity cost, and such.
Or suppose I'm a person torn between a Wii and a 20GB PS3. Here's the proposition I'm faced with: $250 or $500. $250 comes with one game, and then I can afford five others at $50 each before I even reach the price of the PS3 by itself. Assuming that Wii has enough good games (which I don't think it does at the moment) to make me want six to begin with, it would look like a better proposition for me as a gamer because I could build a more diverse library at a lower cost.
Pricing is crucial. Not all gamers necessarily prefer the one AAA game at a greater cost to the numerous A games for the same cost--and for those gamers, specifically, it would be to their benefit for as many franchises as possible to show up on weaker hardware with a smaller barrier to entry.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
It's a horrible argument, and is only further enhanced by referring to it. Many lesser systems have surpassed many greater (graphically capable) systems, many many times...and artwork, developer wishes, or anything in that ridiculous realm abso-****ing-lutely nothing to do with which platform eventually won. In fact, it could easily be argued that the lesser systems that gain dominance always have the most artistic works.

That kid should be laughed out of the ****ing thread. It's just a ridiculous assertion and has no basis in anything close to reality.
 

Pusha

Banned
Segata Sanshiro said:
I hate to say this Pusha, cuz your heart is in the right place, but in the eternal battle between art and money, money is going to win every time for 99.99% of developers. Only the already highly wealthy that are doing it for the satisfaction alone would choose 'art' without money over money without 'art'. A sad fact of life, but one that means the console-not-chosen only gets minimal support (the big fish in the small pond who find money by targeting the audience that has bought the system).

Sony had best hope it does not come to this type of choice for third parties.

Not just sony, though your point is well taken. Gamers, most of us who want a true transition to the next generation, best hope it does not come to this type of choice. And, before I'm called a graphics whore, it's not solely about visuals. We're going to see a focus on a system that is limited in many other respects, as well. This doesn't bode well for those who look forward to seeing what developers are capable of wringing out of the PS3 and 360. Especially those of us who have a preference for Eastern game design. I mean, I don't want my favorite RPGs to appear on a system that doesn't push things forward. I don't buy the argument that the Wii introduces revolutionary gameplay. It merely incorporates a different way of interacting with what can only be termed as an outdated audio-visual experience. There comes a point when art becomes an inadequate excuse, when technology trumps aesthetic.
 

Neomoto

Member
Ryu1999 said:
Reggie, is that you? Seriously, Nintendo's done everything right EXCEPT online (so far)
What? I'm not talking about online gaming, so I don't know what this post is supposed to accomplish? The whole Mii functionallity is done exactly right as you stated yourself. Not only that but they are increasing it's importance. Just today a thread here is made with 2 new great commercials focussed solely on Mii. And they have a new Mii channel in the works which could be a pretty big deal for taking the Mii thing even further. And of course there is that one last thing, that they keep adding Mii compatibility in more and more Wii games (Big Brain Academy for example confirmed today that it will use them afaik).

I think Mii's are fun, but that's pretty much says it all for me. But obviously I can't deny the fact that this as a whole is just another example of Nintendo creating something with universal appeal, and being very succesfull with it and therefore taking it into the next level.

Pusha said:
I know the bills must be paid, but this is also an artform, and I think many developers would be pissed off if they had to focus on the Wii. You read the interviews, and see how excited these guys are to have the technology housed within both the 360 and the PS3. They're now affrded an opportunity to weave magic that was previously only possible in their dreams. They're not going to pass up on that
...which is exactly why imo most developers should be pleased to have the DS and Wii to develop for (and according to many interviews and such, apparently most of them are indeed).

Eteric Rice said:
This reminds me of something Bryan Singer said (Director of X-Men, X-Men 2, Superman Returns, The Usual Suspects). For movies like X-Men, and The Usual Suspects, they had a very small budget to work with. But he considered that a good thing, as it made then focus more on making the movie the best they could.

[...]
Your post in turn reminded me of something similar like that. I don't know who said it but it was a developer on ds development I think, and he said pretty much the same thing but in terms of limited technology. If you have an certain limit of what is possible on a system, it pushes him to make the absolute best out of it that is possible. And thus is his words creating a better game than he most likely would have done without those constraints.

The Sphinx said:
Next big Wii game is Super Paper Mario, expected April 19 in Japan. That could be gigantic, or not, depends on whether the NSMB fans recognize it as the next 2.5D Mario platformer and migrate over.

Next big PS3 game... Minna no Golf I guess? In June.
Thank you. :) So Japan is getting SPM second eh? Surprising. The Paper Mario games did pretty good in Japan for such a low userbase (both around 500k right?), and this is more a sidescrolling platformer so I think it will do pretty good on Wii.
Minna no Golf could put up some decent numbers, the ps3 seriously needs every bit of help it can get right now.
 

felipeko

Member
Pusha said:
Not just sony, though your point is well taken. Gamers, most of us who want a true transition to the next generation, best hope it does not come to this type of choice. And, before I'm called a graphics whore, it's not solely about visuals. We're going to see a focus on a system that is limited in many other respects, as well. This doesn't bode well for those who look forward to seeing what developers are capable of wringing out of the PS3 and 360. Especially those of us who have a preference for Eastern game design. I mean, I don't want my favorite RPGs to appear on a system that doesn't push things forward. I don't buy the argument that the Wii introduces revolutionary gameplay. It merely incorporates a different way of interacting with what can only be termed as an outdated audio-visual experience. There comes a point when art becomes an inadequate excuse, when technology trumps aesthetic.
I'm sorry Pusha, but for gamers it's all about the games.
For me graphics just don't justify next-gen, and RPG isnt necessary a style that need next-gen graphic.
So if i was a fan of FF i would have to buy a $600 console to play that...
For me that is much worse then your fear to have to play the same game with lower resolution.
 
PhoenixDark said:
Damn, someone snapped a pic of me at the Dolphins-Jets game.

Seriously, I don't know why Sony's celebrating this. Yeah, they have a PS3 game at number one, but the normal Ninten-domination continues. It's just a blip on the radar, so to speak.
 

linsivvi

Member
Pusha said:
Not just sony, though your point is well taken. Gamers, most of us who want a true transition to the next generation, best hope it does not come to this type of choice. And, before I'm called a graphics whore, it's not solely about visuals. We're going to see a focus on a system that is limited in many other respects, as well. This doesn't bode well for those who look forward to seeing what developers are capable of wringing out of the PS3 and 360. Especially those of us who have a preference for Eastern game design. I mean, I don't want my favorite RPGs to appear on a system that doesn't push things forward. I don't buy the argument that the Wii introduces revolutionary gameplay. It merely incorporates a different way of interacting with what can only be termed as an outdated audio-visual experience. There comes a point when art becomes an inadequate excuse, when technology trumps aesthetic.

Limited in what aspects? It's an upgrade from the system that gave us RE4 and will be giving us SMG.

And since when has JRPG pushed the envelope? Aside from FF, there are very few JRPGs and SRPGs that take advantage of the system's power. Look at the damn chart on the first page, the top selling SRPG is Super Robot Wars. The game that looks the same on every single console.

If you want to look at art, go to a freaking gallery. Video game is an entertainment, not art. Are you Chris Hecker's brother or something?
 

elostyle

Never forget! I'm Dumb!
Pusha said:
Not just sony, though your point is well taken. Gamers, most of us who want a true transition to the next generation, best hope it does not come to this type of choice. And, before I'm called a graphics whore, it's not solely about visuals. We're going to see a focus on a system that is limited in many other respects, as well. This doesn't bode well for those who look forward to seeing what developers are capable of wringing out of the PS3 and 360. Especially those of us who have a preference for Eastern game design. I mean, I don't want my favorite RPGs to appear on a system that doesn't push things forward. I don't buy the argument that the Wii introduces revolutionary gameplay. It merely incorporates a different way of interacting with what can only be termed as an outdated audio-visual experience. There comes a point when art becomes an inadequate excuse, when technology trumps aesthetic.
For one thing, all your arguments can be applied in the same way towards controls. To many people, your common analog stick feels pretty archaic (myself included, never was a fan of it to begin with).
For another thing, you use the JRPG genre which has evolved at a snail's pace.

So, really, all signs point towards the graphics whore claim to not be entirely baseless.
 

Jammy

Banned
Pusha said:
Not just sony, though your point is well taken. Gamers, most of us who want a true transition to the next generation, best hope it does not come to this type of choice. And, before I'm called a graphics whore, it's not solely about visuals. We're going to see a focus on a system that is limited in many other respects, as well. This doesn't bode well for those who look forward to seeing what developers are capable of wringing out of the PS3 and 360. Especially those of us who have a preference for Eastern game design. I mean, I don't want my favorite RPGs to appear on a system that doesn't push things forward. I don't buy the argument that the Wii introduces revolutionary gameplay. It merely incorporates a different way of interacting with what can only be termed as an outdated audio-visual experience. There comes a point when art becomes an inadequate excuse, when technology trumps aesthetic.

I see where you're going, even if I do think you take it too far.

I don't think I've played an RPG as beautiful and as complete as Chrono Cross... and that came out how many years ago? I think most people think of scale and cutscenes now when they think of RPGs, which I believe to be unfortunate. And to be honest, I also think too many RPGs nowadays are trying to be different with their combat systems and not much else. I'm not liking that trend, but I can see the Wii easily benifitting something like that.
 
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