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[GreyOcelot]

I wanted to believe Mantis was an ally so much when I first saw that trailer, but there's a screenshot of him on the horse with Man on Fire.

I think Mantis is an ally of Skull Face why? because the soldiers from the hospital are the same XOF soldiers from GZ and since we saw Big Boss later with SF teaming up maybe he becomes a buddy later?

Remember that Psycho Mantis was a part of Big Boss' army, as said at the beginning of MGS1. Something along the lines of FoxHound being comprised of former Outer Heaven soldiers. We can assume Mantis and, perhaps, some genome soldiers were being referred to? I need to watch that scene again.

this goes along with my theory that most of the bosses become allies and are recruited after you face them. quiet, mantis, code-talker, liquid, and possibly skullface (which would explain the end of the e3 2014 trailer)

 

[Rajang]

I think Mantis is an ally of Skull Face why? because the soldiers from the hospital are the same XOF soldiers from GZ and since we saw Big Boss later with SF teaming up maybe he becomes a buddy later?

Remember that Psycho Mantis was a part of Big Boss' army, as said at the beginning of MGS1. Something along the lines of FoxHound being comprised of former Outer Heaven soldiers. We can assume Mantis and, perhaps, some genome soldiers were being referred to? I need to watch that scene again.

We don't know much about Psycho Mantis as a kid. According to his bio: when he is an adult he starts his "career" at the KGB, later joins the FBI but goes crazy during a case in 2000 where he delves too deeply into a serial killers mind. He then leaves the FBI and becomes a freelancer untill he joins FOXHOUND, just before the Shadow Moses incident.

More info: http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Psycho_Mantis

Here is my theory:

I think Psycho Mantis works for Zero and Skull Face. Like I said earlier. I think Skull Face works for Zero but acts like he is opposing Zero.

Like I said earlier. I think Skull Face is acting like he wants to go after Zero. Like in the book 1984: O'Brien (Skull Face) wins over the trust of Winston (Big Boss) and tells him that they have the same goals and that he is part of The Brotherhood (XOF), an organization that wants to take down The Party (The Patriots) and Big Brother (Zero). He then tells him that they all read this book which explains why things are the way they are. He gives this book to Winston, the moment he finishes the book his home gets invaded by the police and he gets thrown into jail and tortured. So you learn that O'Brien wasn't a rebel after all. The Brotherhood was just a way to lure out enemies or people who oppose The Party.

I think there will be more similarities between the book '1984' and TPP. The biggest part of that book is about totalitarianism: total control, rewriting history, doctrinating people and propaganda. I think Zero wants to trick Big Boss and corrupt him. Zero doesn't want Big Boss dead, he needs him. If Zero wanted BB dead he could have bombed that entire hospital and annihilated him. Zero helped create Big Boss' legend status and image and he just wants to have power over him. Like totalitarian leaders want to rewrite books/history Zero wants to rewrite Big Boss.

In '1984' right after O'Brien screws Winston over, and he is sent to jail and tortured he is also being brain washed by The Ministry of Truth. I think part of the reason Big Boss descends into madness is because of Zero corrupting and breaking his mind. Psycho Mantis is there in the hospital is to haunt Big Boss and lets him relive very traumatic experiences. In '1984' O'Brien is torturing/terrorizes Winston with his biggest fear: his fear of rats. He terrorizes him and tries to shape him how he wants Winston to be.

There is another character in '1984' named Emmanuel Goldstein which could also relate to Big Boss. Goldstein is one of the founding members of The Party (The Patriots) just like BB, he also breaks away and starts his own organization. He is then regarded as an enemy of the state by The Party.

TL;DR Read the book '1984'. :>

 

[hammertomb]

I wonder if ocelot makes mantis lead big boss to him.

 

[Stratosphere]

Well I forgot to elaborate. I discussed this back in 2012.

I believe I mentioned Mantis is guiding Big Boss out of the hospital or to safety meaning out of harm's way right? He's doing that through Ishmael and using his telekinetic powers.

Big Boss wants to take the elevator but Mantis blocks it and blocks that hallway along with it. My theory is that Mantis is blocking the roads that lead to Big Boss getting captured rather those that are safe to cross. So every time something blocks Big Boss' way because of Mantis interference I take it that's Mantis telling him to choose a different path. In short, Mantis is keeping him away from the XOF soldiers.

You can also see it as a negative thing if you want. I chose to believe that Mantis wants Big Boss' safety. And let's be honest here, Big Boss is weak and can't defend himself, so I can't see him escaping Mantis in any shape or form. And if Mantis is the enemy here, how do you explain Ishmael? We've established that Ishmael is not real already, unless you believe he is then in that case you need to explain yourself buddy. Shit that's a flashback to 2012.

Ishmael being a manifestation via Mantis would be the worst possible outcome IMO. I would much rather he be Big Boss' manifestation as he slowly descends into madness and struggles with his inner demons.

That being said, it's possible that Mantis is helping BB escape. The XOF soldiers seem to intentionally kill off everyone in the hospital except for BB, as they probably want to take him alive.

In summary, I think it's a combination of both. Ishmael, Big Boss' subconscious, and Mantis, both trying to help BB escape.

 

[JayEH]

I agree with Batzi in that Mantis is working with Ocelot to help Boss.

 

[Love Deterrence]

 

[Jimmyfenix]

This thread man

 

[hammertomb]

I agree with Batzi in that Mantis is working with Ocelot to help Boss.

Ocelot ensures he rescues the boss. Builds up trust to get close to zero and maybe then betrays him and defects to skullface.

 

[Rajang]

This thread man

Too deep for you?

 

[hammertomb]

Actually that's really interesting. Your theory is that big boss gets surgery like RDJ in tropic thunder in order to go to a basketball game and reveal himself to zero.

 

[JayEH]

This thread man

too much Metal Gear talk for me.

 

[SargerusBR]

This thread...

 

[Love Deterrence]

 

[GreyOcelot]

i guess i'm in the minority in that I prefer just tapes over full-on old-school codec calls. funny easter egg type stuff can still happen over the radio, and it can easily be context sensitive like in ground zeroes (press radio button based on what you're seeing, etc). i think the old codec dumps full of exposition hurt the pacing of past mgs games. i actually liked how mgs3 largely abandoned the radio after the virtuous mission. it's almost completely optional. and that's the best paced mgs game to me.

 

[Batzi]

Ishmael being a manifestation via Mantis would be the worst possible outcome IMO. I would much rather he be Big Boss' manifestation as he slowly descents into madness and struggles with his inner demons.

That being said, it's possible that Mantis is helping BB escape. The XOF soldiers seem to intentionally kill off everyone in the hospital except for BB, as they probably want to take him alive.

In summary, I think it's a combination of both. Ishmael, Big Boss' subconscious, and Mantis, both trying to help BB escape.

I think it's stupid to send the XOF unit and Mantis together after Big Boss in order to capture a man that is incapable of fighting let alone walk a straight line. Either the XOF is an ally or Mantis is an ally. Last time I checked, the XOF unit was responsible for Mother Base's destruction. The fact Mantis and Ocelot were allies in MGS1 gives my theory more credibility in my opinion.

 

[Rajang]

Neither PW or GZ were "full" games though. If I had to bet, I'd say traditional codec calls will make a return.

You have got to be kidding me.

PW has the most content out of any Metal Gear. What do you mean it's not full?! Kojima took that game very seriously. There are not going to be traditional codec calls anymore. Kojima is clearly moving away from that. He no longer wants to break up the flow of the game with a codec screen. He wants background information to be in the tapes, which you can listen to during a mission or in the chopper (like GZ) or just at motherbase (like PW). Mission information and additional contextual info about the environment/enemies etc by Kaz/Ocelot is going to be 1 way conversation like in PW and GZ.

 

[Stratosphere]

I think it's stupid to send the XOF unit and Mantis together after Big Boss in order to capture a man that is incapable of fighting let alone walk a straight line. Either the XOF is an ally or Mantis is an ally. Last time I checked, the XOF unit was responsible for Mother Base's destruction. The fact Mantis and Ocelot were allies in MGS1 gives my theory more credibility in my opinion.

Let me clarify. I meant that XOF are the enemy, and that Mantis may be trying to help BB escape from them.

Its these lines from Ishmael between 0:08 and 0:27 that make me believe Ishmael is BB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9b2FoYMywc&t=0m8s

Edit: On second thought, "We gave her a light, she took the short way down". With mantis being able to control fire throughout the trailer, shit, it may be him after all. Like you said, I don't think BB is capable of fighting anybody in his state. I'm not sure I'm a fan of this theory though...

 

[Liquid Shake]

As a huge fan of 1984 and MGS (duh) I thoroughly enjoyed reading the last few posts. Bravo brothers!

Big Boss, to Skullface: "They've got you too!"
Skullface: (scoffing & smirking) "They got me a long time ago."

Skullface, to Frank Jaeger: "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a bipedal walking battle tank's boot stomping on your face, forever"

 

[Rogue Agent]

If Ocelot and Mantis were working together, though... why would Big Boss be shooting at what appears to be Mantis's illusion (Volgin) on horseback with Ocelot? Wouldn't Ocelot just tell him it's not real?

 

[NoctisVsStar]

I wonder if ocelot makes mantis lead big boss to him.

Ocelot claims to help Big Boss and quite possibly kills him the process lol

 

[ColourRevolt]

Well I forgot to elaborate. I discussed this back in 2012.

I believe I mentioned Mantis is guiding Big Boss out of the hospital or to safety meaning out of harm's way right? He's doing that through Ishmael and using his telekinetic powers.

Big Boss wants to take the elevator but Mantis blocks it and blocks that hallway along with it. My theory is that Mantis is blocking the roads that lead to Big Boss getting captured rather those that are safe to cross. So every time something blocks Big Boss' way because of Mantis interference I take it that's Mantis telling him to choose a different path. In short, Mantis is keeping him away from the XOF soldiers.

You can also see it as a negative thing if you want. I chose to believe that Mantis wants Big Boss' safety. And let's be honest here, Big Boss is weak and can't defend himself, so I can't see him escaping Mantis in any shape or form. And if Mantis is the enemy here, how do you explain Ishmael? We've established that Ishmael is not real already, unless you believe he is then in that case you need to explain yourself buddy. Shit that's a flashback to 2012.

I think the key to the Ishmael debate can be found in Melville's novel. Ishmael is a necessary, tangible character whose purpose is to observe Big Boss' descent into madness, while he himself remains emotionally/psychologically intact.

 

[Stratosphere]

As a huge fan of 1984 and MGS (duh) I thoroughly enjoyed reading the last few posts. Bravo brothers!

Big Boss, to Skullface: "They've got you too!"
Skullface: (scoffing & smirking) "They got me a long time ago."

Skullface, to Frank Jaeger: "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a bipedal walking battle tank's boot stomping on your face, forever"

Damnit I'm going to have to re-read 1984 now!

Spoiler

They should totally make a film out of this book. A new one I mean.

 

[JayEH]

If Ocelot and Mantis were working together, though... why would Big Boss be shooting at what appears to be Mantis's illusion (Volgin) on horseback with Ocelot? Wouldn't Ocelot just tell him it's not real?

I was thinking maybe Mantis couldn't control his powers that well at the time but you bring up a good point.

 

[Rajang]

I dont think Ocelot and Mantis work together.

Ocelot is someone who always remains loyal to BB. Up untill the end (in MGS4).

Mantis is helping Zero.

 

[Stratosphere]

I'm not so sure Ocelot and Mantis are working together either, at least at the start.

So we could possibly be having 3 separate parties trying to get to BB first:

1) Ocelot
2) Mantis & Zero?
3) XOF and Skullface

 

[Rogue Agent]

I think the key to the Ishmael debate can be found in Melville's novel. Ishmael is a necessary, tangible character whose purpose is to observe Big Boss' descent into madness, while he himself remains emotionally/psychologically intact.

Which reminds me, I really wouldn't have minded Gray Fox being the player character and seeing Big Boss's descent through him instead in the way that Ishmael sees Ahab.

And I don't mean in a silly way like PythonSelkan's theory, I just mean that genuinely playing as a loyal soldier of Big Boss (Gray Fox is the most obvious choice) as he's turning evil and seeing his downfall theough his eyes might have been cool and a valid storytelling device. Kojima said he included Raiden to see Solid Snake from the outside in a similar way in MGS2. But hey, actually controlling Big Boss as he becomes the bad guy? I'm not complaining, that's just as interesting especially for the videogame medium.

As it is, the Ishmael that is in the actual game seems to be more of a red herring/nod.

 

[Rajang]

Here's a very short and funny summary of the book '1984'. I found this video on mgs forums:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeMlOQsu2zM

Definitely check it out if you want to understand '1984' on a basic level.

 

[Love Deterrence]

Where am I? Oh, yeah

 

[Batzi]

I think Psycho Mantis works for Zero and Skull Face.

That's a big statement right there. First we need to establish and understand the relationship between Zero and Skull Face before jumping into conclusions. Until we're sure we can't really know if Mantis is working for either men.

I need to think about the "Zero and Skull Face" relationship first and I will get back to you with an answer. As far as Mantis goes, I still insist that he's out there helping out Big Boss.

Let me clarify. I meant that XOF are the enemy, and that Mantis may be trying to help BB escape from them.

Its these lines from Ishmael between 0:08 and 0:27 that make me believe Ishmael is BB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9b2FoYMywc&t=0m8s

Edit: On second thought, "We gave her a light, she took the short way down". With mantis being able to control fire throughout the trailer, shit, it may be him after all. Like you said, I don't think BB is capable of fighting anybody in his state. I'm not sure I'm a fan of this theory though...

Realistically speaking he shouldn't be out of bed. So yea the guy can't fight and can't even walk. Mantis could easily destroy him without even using his powers.

If Ocelot and Mantis were working together, though... why would Big Boss be shooting at what appears to be Mantis's illusion (Volgin) on horseback with Ocelot? Wouldn't Ocelot just tell him it's not real?

Ocelot is not seeing what Big Boss is seeing that's why. Big Boss is paranoid at this stage.

I think the key to the Ishmael debate can be found in Melville's novel. Ishmael is a necessary, tangible character whose purpose is to observe Big Boss' descent into madness, while he himself remains emotionally/psychologically intact.

That could be a plausible theory. This means we're going to see more of Ishmael throughout the game and not only during the hospital escape if we follow your theory.

 

[Rajang]

Where am I? Oh, yeah

 

[JayEH]

 

[hammertomb]

My bowser died

 

[-Deimos]

You have got to be kidding me.

PW has the most content out of any Metal Gear. What do you mean it's not full?! Kojima took that game very seriously. There are not going to be traditional codec calls anymore. Kojima is clearly moving away from that. He no longer wants to break up the flow of the game with a codec screen. He wants background information to be in the tapes, which you can listen to during a mission or in the chopper (like GZ) or just at motherbase (like PW). Mission information and additional contextual info about the environment/enemies etc by Kaz/Ocelot is going to be 1 way conversation like in PW and GZ.

Compared to previous games? I don't really think so. On it's own, sure.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

The Thread and I this morning:

My bowser died

I was going to say the same thing, but then I thought I could make a Bowser joke instead, but now I can't think of one.

 

[Batzi]

I'm not so sure Ocelot and Mantis are working together either, at least at the start.

So we could possibly be having 3 separate parties trying to get to BB first:

1) Ocelot
2) Mantis & Zero?
3) XOF and Skullface

Possibly. But then again, how the hell Big Boss escapes the XOF unit when several soldiers are pointing guns at Big Boss who is lying on the ground hopelessly? It can't be Ishmael if you are assuming he's not real. Could it be Mantis? If we follow your suggestion (Mantis works for Zero), Mantis would be eliminating the XOF unit not out of good will but to simply ambush the XOF's attempt to capture Big Boss. But then again, how does Big Boss escape Mantis? That kid that eliminated several XOF units?

 

[sexyelder]

I bet the reason why there are so many Moby Dick references at the begining of the game is because while Big Boss was in a coma Kaz read him Moby Dick.

 

[Rean]

 

[Rajang]

Possibly. But then again, how the hell Big Boss escapes the XOF unit when several soldiers are pointing guns at Big Boss who is lying on the ground hopelessly? It can't be Ishmael if you are assuming he's not real. Could it be Mantis? If we follow your suggestion (Mantis works for Zero), Mantis would be eliminating the XOF unit not out of good will but to simply ambush the XOF's attempt to capture Big Boss. But then again, how does Big Boss escape Mantis? That kid that eliminated several XOF units?

I think its because Zero is trying to terrorize him/corrupt him. He wants Big Boss to descend into madness. He wants to destroy Big Boss' legendary status by making a villain out of him. And the scene of the hospital is the first stage. We also see BB shoot innocent kids or child soldiers. BB going mad because he is getting played by 2 sides.

 

[Batzi]

I think its because Zero is trying to terrorize him/corrupt him. He wants Big Boss to descend into madness. He wants to destroy Big Boss' legendary status by making a villain out of him. And the scene of the hospital is the first stage. We also see BB shoot innocent kids or child soldiers. BB going mad because he is getting played by 2 sides.

You quoted the wrong post xD

 

[Stratosphere]

Possibly. But then again, how the hell Big Boss escapes the XOF unit when several soldiers are pointing guns at Big Boss who is lying on the ground hopelessly? It can't be Ishmael if you are assuming he's not real. Could it be Mantis? If we follow your suggestion (Mantis works for Zero), Mantis would be eliminating the XOF unit not out of good will but to simply ambush the XOF's attempt to capture Big Boss. But then again, how does Big Boss escape Mantis? That kid that eliminated several XOF units?

Are you talking about the final scene from the first trailer? You can see mantis at the very end, so he definitely takes out those XOF soldiers. How the hell BB escapes Mantis, I have no clue. We have no idea how Ocelot comes into the fold, so I think that's the missing key here.

 

[Skullface]

Neither PW or GZ were "full" games though. If I had to bet, I'd say traditional codec calls will make a return.

What's a full game here? I get your point with GZ, but PW arguable has more content than any MGS game to date.

 

[Batzi]

Are you talking about the final scene from the first trailer? You can see mantis at the very end, so he definitely takes out those XOF soldiers. How the hell BB escapes Mantis, I have no clue. We have no idea how Ocelot comes into the fold, so I think that's the missing key here.

Which is why my theory is that Mantis guides Big Boss to safety which is where Ocelot is waiting for him.

 

[Batzi]

What's a full game here? I get your point with GZ, but PW arguable has more content than any MGS game to date.

Exactly, I don't understand what he's trying to say. PW was huge.

 

[hammertomb]

Exactly, I don't understand what he's trying to say. PW was huge.

Maybe he meant story wise? Even than it wouldn't make sense.

 

[Batzi]

Maybe he meant story wise? Even than it wouldn't make sense.

PW's story is the reason we have MGSV so yea doesn't make any sense.

 

[sexyelder]

Which is why my theory is that Mantis guides Big Boss to safety which is where Ocelot is waiting for him.

Maybe he meant story wise? Even than it wouldn't make sense.

How long was Peace Walkers story? (Just the main missions)

 

[Batzi]

How long was Peace Walkers story? (Just the main missions)

Took me some time. It was longer than MGS4 if you skip cutscenes.

 

[Stratosphere]

Which is why my theory is that Mantis guides Big Boss to safety which is where Ocelot is waiting for him.

I definitely can't rule this out. It's just that one scene from the GDC '13 trailer that throws me off. BB and Ocelot on horseback being chased by fire and the flaming unicorn.

 

[Rogue Agent]

I think he's trying to say that Peace Walker lacked some of the features we'd expect on a regular console MGS due to hardware limitations and the portable nature of the game, and Ground Zeroes does as well because it's just a slice of a full unfinished console MGS. For example, GZ has a Peace Walker-like mission menu (due to being a prologue) and we know TPP actually has free roam where you can select missions in real time and a Mother Base you can walk aroumd.

But PW is full of content so to call it not a full game was a poor choice of words.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

I think he's trying to say that Peace Walker lacked some of the features we'd expect on a regular console MGS due to hardware limitations and the portable nature of the game, and Ground Zeroes does as well because it's just a slice of a full unfinished console MGS. For example, GZ has a Peace Walker-like mission menu (due to being a prologue) and we know TPP actually has free roam where you can select missions in real time and a Mother Base you can walk aroumd.

But PW is full of content so to call it not a full game was a poor choice of words.

Rogue Agent, you're my hero. Always walking around with all that knowledge.