StopMakingSense
Member
The ravens in Afghanistan were psychically linked to Vulcan Raven, so he was a part of the story the whole time, and the link only gets stronger each time you accidentally codec call Ocelot and he says the raven thing.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
The ravens in Afghanistan were psychically linked to Vulcan Raven, so he was a part of the story the whole time, and the link only gets stronger each time you accidentally codec call Ocelot and he says the raven thing.
That was originally changed in The Twin Snakes, same as Naomi's accent.
RevolverRoden
Member
Ocelot walks into the diner, does his hand gesture and "You're pretty good"*
*cue audience applause*
*cue laugh track*
Then they have the series' jumping-the-shark moment, only in this case Ocelot ski-jumps over a supercomputer instead of a literal shark.
Man, Fonzie was goddamn magic.
Ha! We need this sitcom NOW!
This is going to be a difficult episode
thequickandthedead
Member
I checked the MGS1 recap in the book and it doesn't mention anything of the sort?
Quoting myself to correct some mindless typos that are forever preserved in the posts of other people who quoted me, lol
(I said "40 bottoms" instead of "40 pages," wtf)
Isn't it implied that Ocelot is the one who kills Miller?
No, Liquid kills him.
I'm curious if anyone here actually read/remembers Moby Dick? I feel like Venom characterization, especially bloody mirror smashing outer heaven Venom references pretty closely to the vengeful Ahab from the book. I'm too old for literary analysis, but here's some choice text:
and
Ahab = charismatic man of few words, who is self serving and denies a higher power (ungodly, god-like man). He is named by his creator after a vile, wicked king which eventually manifested into a self fulfilling prophecy of crazy cult leader leading his followers because such lust for revenge. If we apply this arc to Venom, it suggests he goes rogue from BB ideology at some point, descends into demon mode, amasses his own army/metal gear/nukes independently in pursuit of some elaborated vendetta, which N313 is designed to intervene. When I watched the ending cut scene, I read a bloody Venom whose relationship with BB ended acrimoniously, and his smirk less stoic acceptance of "orders" but a "challenge accepted" to BB's tape that simultaneously appealed for reconciliation to a higher ideal on one side and plotted to assassinate Venom on the other.
Anyway, I'm probably excessively post rationalizing Kojima's references, it's been a while since I read the book. I'm wondering if anyone can thematically tie Moby Dick to the game. I vaguely remember motifs of whiteness that might connect to The Boss (white flowers / sneaking suit), and the white mask with BB bandage mask.
He's a queer man, Captain Ahab--so some think--but a good one. Oh, thou'lt like him well enough; no fear, no fear. He's a grand, ungodly, god-like man, Captain Ahab; doesn't speak much; but, when he does speak, then you may well listen.
and
Hes Ahab, boy; and Ahab of old, thou knowest, was a crowned king!"
"And a very vile one. When that wicked king was slain, the dogs, did they not lick his blood?"
"Come hither to mehither, hither," said Peleg, with a significance in his eye that almost startled me. "Look ye, lad; never say that on board the Pequod. Never say it anywhere. Captain Ahab did not name himself .'Twas a foolish, ignorant whim of his crazy, widowed mother, who died when he was only a twelvemonth old. And yet the old squaw Tistig, at Gayhead, said that the name would somehow prove prophetic.
"And a very vile one. When that wicked king was slain, the dogs, did they not lick his blood?"
"Come hither to mehither, hither," said Peleg, with a significance in his eye that almost startled me. "Look ye, lad; never say that on board the Pequod. Never say it anywhere. Captain Ahab did not name himself .'Twas a foolish, ignorant whim of his crazy, widowed mother, who died when he was only a twelvemonth old. And yet the old squaw Tistig, at Gayhead, said that the name would somehow prove prophetic.
Ahab = charismatic man of few words, who is self serving and denies a higher power (ungodly, god-like man). He is named by his creator after a vile, wicked king which eventually manifested into a self fulfilling prophecy of crazy cult leader leading his followers because such lust for revenge. If we apply this arc to Venom, it suggests he goes rogue from BB ideology at some point, descends into demon mode, amasses his own army/metal gear/nukes independently in pursuit of some elaborated vendetta, which N313 is designed to intervene. When I watched the ending cut scene, I read a bloody Venom whose relationship with BB ended acrimoniously, and his smirk less stoic acceptance of "orders" but a "challenge accepted" to BB's tape that simultaneously appealed for reconciliation to a higher ideal on one side and plotted to assassinate Venom on the other.
Anyway, I'm probably excessively post rationalizing Kojima's references, it's been a while since I read the book. I'm wondering if anyone can thematically tie Moby Dick to the game. I vaguely remember motifs of whiteness that might connect to The Boss (white flowers / sneaking suit), and the white mask with BB bandage mask.
A noble effort but far too great a reach. Other than some lip service to revenge, awkward character names and a whale, there's not much of anything.
The Lord of the Flies "references" are far more cringe inducing, however.
Its the second paragraph.
Guide says in the timeline it was at liquids command, but possibly at the hands of Ocelot.
I think your interpretation is plausible. And yeah, it does seem to trade on some similar traits described in Moby-Dick. It's definitely a back-loaded development, though, since Venom himself, while the leader, wasn't the one rallying for revenge during the events of TPP. He might be that way after learning "the truth," but when it was just him and Skull Face, it was primarily Kaz who was the driving force behind their vindictive quest. If anything, Kaz seems like the Ahab of Moby-Dick who becomes single-minded in his bloody pursuit. And while we don't see it here, Kaz's never-ending quest for revenge ultimately is his undoing when either Ocelot or Liquid kills him.
Problem is he doesn't really, even in the end Kaz says we need to kill Skull Face to save the world.
Kaz justified it as "the greater good" in the lead-up to M30/M31, but I don't think that invalidates the hours of handwringing they showed before where all he wants is Skully's head on a platter.
I'm sure most would agree that of all the Diamond Dogs, it was Kaz who wanted revenge the most, and Kaz who was most determined to have it. So if anyone was Ahab-esque, at least in the sense of revenge, it was Kaz.
Just my thoughts on it.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
It was revealed somewhere that Raven was at Outer Heaven or Zanzibar, and Ocelot took him in for FOXHOUND.
KOMANI
KOMANI
To be fair it got retconned in twin snakes first
I don't really need any hypnotherapy to buy Liquid and Ocelot's relationship.
I assume that promptly after both joining Foxhound, Liquid just beat the shit out of Ocelot and took the alpha role, eventually becoming the leader of Foxhound. Ocelot just lowered his head and let Liquid have his fun while manipulating him into the shadow moses incident.
Alternatively.
"Ocelot? Wait aren't you the guy from Diamond Dogs? You asshole, you tortured me and my bros before we escaped! and then left us to die on that island!"
"No no no no. I am Revolver Ocelot. Ocelot is a really common name in Russia."
"Aaah ok. It's cool."
e: there's a chance Liquid even buys it, if his seventh spoken language is not Russian. Wiki lists "English, Spanish, French, Malay, Arabic and Kikongo."
I assume that promptly after both joining Foxhound, Liquid just beat the shit out of Ocelot and took the alpha role, eventually becoming the leader of Foxhound. Ocelot just lowered his head and let Liquid have his fun while manipulating him into the shadow moses incident.
Alternatively.
"Ocelot? Wait aren't you the guy from Diamond Dogs? You asshole, you tortured me and my bros before we escaped! and then left us to die on that island!"
"No no no no. I am Revolver Ocelot. Ocelot is a really common name in Russia."
"Aaah ok. It's cool."
e: there's a chance Liquid even buys it, if his seventh spoken language is not Russian. Wiki lists "English, Spanish, French, Malay, Arabic and Kikongo."
It does though, it undermines the emotional thrust behind the climax.
"No greater good, no just cause - except this time when we should be getting revenge. Then its all about the greater good."
I mean you're totally right that he's the closest parallel to Ahab, but that speaks more to the game's failure to actually push the revenge theme. This rests on Kojima, unable or unwilling to make his characters into genuine villains he falls back on heroics.
I might be remembering incorrectly but I think Vulcan was once with Outer Heaven, right? So if anything, he probably had ties to Venom prior to his time at FOXHOUND.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. I personally don't mind it not being 1:1 with its inspiration (it would be a fool's errand to re-skin Moby-Dick as an MGS title), but you're right that Kaz makes it more than he originally intended. At first it was purely about "an eye for an eye" (or maybe I should say "a limb for a limb"), but now they can feel like the good guys telling themselves they weren't just taking out a shadow op, but someone on the cusp of destroying Western civilization.
GodzillaDB
Member
I wasn't even aware of this aspect. Heck, it wasn't even a necessary adjustment to the plot.
Welcome to post-MGS4 continuity where established facts and logical thinking take a backseat for "muh themes."Johndoey said:
If you're a diehard Metal Gear fan, it's practically essential with their up-to-date character biographies and plot summaries. Sadly, it has become almost a tradition after Guns of the Patriots to buy these guides just to witness the retcon details that surface exclusively in their pages. It doesn't offer too much detail in the strategy department that couldn't have been discovered through ordinary play or unearthed from posts shattered throughout the Net. However, the collector's edition does have some nice extras with forty-eight pages of artwork with commentary from Kojima and a Venom Snake lithograph from Yoji Shinkawa.
MGS 1 and 3 have the best storylines since they're simple and largely self contained. 2 plays around with enough great ideas and 4 has enough good scenes such that both make up for their convoluted writing.
Peace Walker is pretty silly and overwrought with a couple highlights elevating the rest, and MGS V is a disaster.
thequickandthedead
Member
I'm surprised the guide isn't allowed to straight up say that Ishmael is BB due to a "request" by Konami.
Ha, yeah. They all but say it, even drawing attention to the similar voices between Ishmael and Ahab.
I love the story in MGSV, it's one of my favorites in the series, so I wish the guide had given the Kojima-certified take on the twist.
Well that's silly.
I'm more surprised the guide wouldn't even tell you how to unlock mission 46.
It does however note all the evidence that lets people know Ishmael=BB
thequickandthedead
Member
Yeah stuff I didn't even notice like Ocelot saying to Eli "I told you, your fathers not here".
although wasn't Ocelot under hypnosis?
Well, venom wasn't there really when he said that, he just arrived when be said so
GodzillaDB
Member
Gosh-dang! I thought you were joking for a second, but the Metal Gear Wikia claims that Vulcan Raven did join Outer Heaven at some point prior to the Uprising and he was absent from the fortress on dispatch when Solid Snake triggered its self-destruction. Doesn't that possibly mean he was recruited by Venom Snake instead of the real Big Boss? Regardless, he has the weakest link with the legendary soldier in the terrorist bunch.
There was a DNA test ruling out the connection. That might've happened later. If so, I see Ocelot's denial as protecting "BB" from his psycho offspring.
Stereogatari
Banned
It's a cool retcon actually, since these 3 hung out at the Torture Room in MGS1 with a dead Sigint in the background. You don't see Raven or Wolf at that meeting, so the idea of these 3 being involved in past shenanigans can be justified.
Alright, so what the fuck is that soldier shooting at in Mission 20. When you're first going through the mist, up towards the cliff -- just before the P.T tape. What is that one guard shooting at, hes just starts shooting away from the objective. What is that guy shooting at? It's really bothering me, no guards acknowledge it, what the fuck is he shooting at!?
GodzillaDB
Member
Weren't there a few shooting targets shattered through that outpost? It felt like his actions were a scripted attempt at a "jump scare" since some players can crawl into the vicinity of fire when it takes place.
KOMANI
KOMANI
He was shooting at some four legged animal.
Does Decoy Octopus not count or am I just forgetting something about his background?
GodzillaDB
Member
I actually forgot about his character for a brief moment despite wishing he was Venom Snake's true identity prior to the final reveal. I stand corrected once more, but that's what I get for trying to make sense of the jumbled mess known as Metal Gear "continuity." Then again, he might as well not exist as a character since he's too busy impersonating the DARPA Chief for a single encounter at Shadow Moses.
Venom must have needed someone to serve as his own body double if he ran Outer Heaven for any length of time.
Venom had his own cloning project, Les Enfants Gentles, so that his gosh darned kind as heck genetic legacy can be preserved for mankind.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Some tapes should've been scenes in the game, specially some of the Truth ones, like the Secret Recordings between Skullface and Paz and Paz and Zero, which would've have served as great intros (specially since the former would be a continuation from the post credits scene we hear from GZ and would give insight into Cipher/Zero). Oh and of course, the assassination attempt on Zero. Would've have been great. Chapter 2 should have been a bigger introspection into Venom's psyche, considering he sees Skullface at the end of Chapter 1. Missed opportunity. To use those tapes I mean.
It was later. It said it happened at 6AM, so I suppose Ocelot hid BB in some safehouse nearby and then gave him Eva's bike.
I still feel that they could have more scenes of Venom questioning his identity, because 46 came out of nowhere. Maybe do a flashforward when Outer Heaven is established and him remembering the hospital or something. Not just selecting a mission on the iDroid and doing the whole escape again with some changes.
It was later. It said it happened at 6AM, so I suppose Ocelot hid BB in some safehouse nearby and then gave him Eva's bike.
I still feel that they could have more scenes of Venom questioning his identity, because 46 came out of nowhere. Maybe do a flashforward when Outer Heaven is established and him remembering the hospital or something. Not just selecting a mission on the iDroid and doing the whole escape again with some changes.
Spring-Loaded
Member
This is going to be a difficult episode
Full Base
I'm just arguing against the common interpretation that Venom is a chill dude, loyal to the end that horribad BB plays like a fiddle. I went back and rewatched the ending, when the "the man who sold the world" side plays, Venom is portrayed with a small horn. When the tape flips to N313 with the accompanied time skip, he is portrayed as full Ahab/demon mode. I'm guessing the former is a reflection of in-game player state and the latter is canon Venom development outside of player actions. Obviously what happens in between for this transformation to manifest is not shown (cut content?) but considering Chapter2/Race is thematically suggest the accumulation of nuclear arsenal which is tied to demon points in game, it follows that at some point circumstances drive Venom loses his shit. I just feel that despite the game being... unfinished, there's very deliberate authorial intent on Kojima's part to portray Venom's downfall that didn't get translated into the final game. Kaz is an better proxy for Ahab given what's shown, but if we evaluate on the canon presentation of Venom as a bloody demon at the end, it reads pretty unambiguous that the story was suppose to center around Venom's revenge against... something. And that the intent of N313 by BB wasn't a elaborate ruse to protect his loyal body double and legend gone awry, but an actual effort to assassinate Venom after he goes rogue.
