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[JayEH]

From the other translations race stands for that (a car race) or arms race, but I've yet to actually beign chapter 2 so who knows. Still, a race makes more sense than it being about human races.

There was someone in Thread 2 I think who said the Japanese text is roughly translates to "Species".

Yes, it's revenge. They use the word hundreds of times and it's a motivating factor for virtually every character. You may like how it came through in the final game, but come on, Kojima repeats his themes in like every other sentence of these games.

Gene --> Meme --> Scene --> Sense/Will --> Peace --> Revenge

Chapter 1 is about Revenge. And yeah I didn't like how it came through. Like I said in my post it makes Kaz a worse character and the other characters who are out for revenge are out for it for the dumbest reasons. Also the ending doesn't reinforce this theme at all. All the other themes you listed are reinforced throughout the games and are incorporated into their endings. When big boss tells me I'm big boss how is that about revenge? This game IMO tries to tackle too many themes at once and suffers from it.

 

[Roni]

So we're pretending that Kojima had the idea for the Patriots while writing any of the games released before MGS2 now? Gimme a fucking break dude.

No, I'm not pretending anything. I'm giving the guy credit for successfully integrating games that had already been created into an overarching story and that, because of that, their true story is left out of focus.

Also, you failed to address my point by shifting focus to another question: the real story of all those games is not the main narrative.

 

[Berserker976]

No, I'm not pretending anything. I'm giving the guy credit for successfully integrating games that had already been created into an overarching story and that, because of that, their true story is left out of focus.

Also, you failed to address my point by shifting focus to another question: the real story of all those games is not the main narrative.

I don't understand... just because MGS4 introduced a higher narrative level doesn't mean the stories focused on in those games are now somehow less relevant. Important shit still happens in the main plots of those games, just because MGS4 re-contextualized some things doesn't mean it suddenly dwarfs all the other stories being told or the other narrative thread that didn't involve Big Boss' war with Zero.

You're basically arguing that the Metal Gear Solid series isn't really about Solid Snake just because MGS4 said that there's other shit going on.

 

[Screaming Meat]

From the other translations race stands for that (a car race) or arms race, but I've yet to actually beign chapter 2 so who knows. Still, a race makes more sense than it being about human races.

I totally called that!

 

[GreyOcelot]

Language and the consequences of the English language taking over the world - This one is an extremely interesting idea that has its exploration unfortunately relegated to a single speech made by the villain in a jeep, and some tapes. Of the three you listed, I would say this one is explored the most, but it's still lacking any kind of cohesion.

uhh...what? this is easily the most overtly discussed and fully realized theme in the game. it's all the fuck over the tapes. saying it's only explored in skullface's jeep ride is factually inaccurate.

 

[Roni]

I don't understand... just because MGS4 introduced a higher narrative level doesn't mean the stories focused on in those games are now somehow less relevant. Important shit still happens in the main plots of those games, just because MGS4 re-contextualized some things doesn't mean it suddenly dwarfs all the other stories being told or the other narrative thread that didn't involve Big Boss' war with Zero.

You're basically arguing that the Metal Gear Solid series isn't really about Solid Snake just because MGS4 said that there's other shit going on.

I'm not belittling the games' stories. They're fun and relevant, specially in terms of their message and themes. However, in true MGS fashion, you never get the story straight. You never get the full picture. You always feel, with an MGS narrative, like you're being told the story by someone who doesn't have all the pieces. Who doesn't really know everything.

Same thing with MGSV. It's a revenge tale if you ignore the rest of the franchise, but the real story - the most meaningful happenings in the game that contribute to the rest of the franchise's overarching story, is mostly left in the dark. Just like most other games in the franchise.

Hence why hating on this game in the franchise in particular for that is inconsistent and demonstrates a double standard.

 

[Berserker976]

uhh...what? this is easily the most overtly discussed and fully realized theme in the game. it's all the fuck over the tapes. saying it's only explored in skullface's jeep ride is factually inaccurate.

Hey, I did say "and some tapes"

And my point was that for all the exposition, the game doesn't really do anything with this theme. It's a really cool idea, and like I said, I do think it's the best explored out of all of them, it's just that I still found it lacking because it seemed stagnant to me.

 

[Ashura_MX]

#NeverBeGameOver anybody has a clue / idea / theory of what the "bar code" stripes in certain scenes mean?

GZ intro has the bars, metal sally has the bars and a bunch of other scenes.

 

[Gritesh]

You know I haven't even finished chapter 1 yet but I was listening to a Huey tape last night that really made me go WTF.

Its the tape where he talks about when he asks to not be recorded and this information was for venoms ears only. He proceeds to tell venom about how he heard that some scientists in the east had cloned a human being. Now coming from playing all the metal gear solid games before this didn't surprise me all that much. What DID surprise me is how fast venom terminates the conversation and immediately dismisses the idea as if it were bullocks. Makes me think venom knows what he is but denies it or doesn't want to hear it..

Does this make sense to anyone else or did I misinterpret this tape?

 

[Inferno313]

You know I haven't even finished chapter 1 yet but I was listening to a Huey tape last night that really made me go WTF.

Its the tape where he talks about when he asks to not be recorded and this information was for venoms ears only. He proceeds to tell venom about how he heard that some scientists in the east had cloned a human being. Now coming from playing all the metal gear solid games before this didn't surprise me all that much. What DID surprise me is how fast venom terminates the conversation and immediately dismisses the idea as if it were bullocks. Makes me think venom knows what he is but denies it or doesn't want to hear it..

Does this make sense to anyone else or did I misinterpret this tape?

Venom isn't a clone. Solid and Liquid are, not Venom.

 

[Reebot]

uhh...what? this is easily the most overtly discussed and fully realized theme in the game. it's all the fuck over the tapes. saying it's only explored in skullface's jeep ride is factually inaccurate.

It is without a doubt the most surface level "discussion." There's no real digging into the idea or the theme, even in the tapes. A wasted plot point.

 

[SomTervo]

You're going to have to expand on the bolded, because I cannot even fathom what this implies. How is the story not the focus in like.... all of those games?

Also I'd argue the relationship between Zero and Big Boss isn't really addressed much at all in this game. Sure, we get a hospital visit in one of the truth tapes, but for 99% of the game we're following the story of some dude Big Boss slapped a "Kick Me" sign on.

Slightly playing Devil's Advocate here: but A) I think the person meant 'narrative' rather than 'story', and B) because a game spends 2/3rds of their time telling you a narrative, doesn't mean the narrative is the focus of the game. I think the poster meant that the journey, themes and gameplay are the focus of the MGS series- but Kojima decided to use bloated cutscenes to convey this. The narrative has almost always been a slipshod affair, while the themes and journey (the 'story') was always amazing.

MGS3 was the only time the narrative was held very tightly and developed in the 'traditional' way, and as a result it's the most emotionally meaningful. And this made the overall 'story' - the themes and characters - come across even more effectively.

Re Zero and Big Boss - imo it's quite clear that Big Boss still sees Zero as the ultimate enemy/villain, whereas Zero feels more benevolent towards him and actually helps him out in a few ways (eg coming up with the Phantom plan). Big Boss isn't aware of this - and neither is EVA probably, hence EVA and Boss seeing it as a long-time feud or "war". Zero never had that perspective.

Regardless how I feel about mgsv in total... the video for the missing chapter three with that amazing concept art... it makes me want to Kickstart a campaign to get konami to either

1.) Build and release chapter 3... I will buy it for 10 bucks

2.) Sell me all of theor mgsv concept art so I can die a happy man

3.) All of the above

Seconded.

 

[Gritesh]

Venom isn't a clone. Solid and Liquid are, not Venom.

But isn't solid and liquid supposed to be clones of BB and venom knows he wasn't involved in that experiment so therefore knows he's not the actual BB?

 

[JayEH]

But isn't solid and liquid supposed to be clones of BB and venom knows he wasn't involved in that experiment so therefore knows he's not the actual BB?

Venom doesn't know he's not Big Boss until the end of the game.

 

[Roni]

You know I haven't even finished chapter 1 yet but I was listening to a Huey tape last night that really made me go WTF.

Its the tape where he talks about when he asks to not be recorded and this information was for venoms ears only. He proceeds to tell venom about how he heard that some scientists in the east had cloned a human being. Now coming from playing all the metal gear solid games before this didn't surprise me all that much. What DID surprise me is how fast venom terminates the conversation and immediately dismisses the idea as if it were bullocks. Makes me think venom knows what he is but denies it or doesn't want to hear it..

Does this make sense to anyone else or did I misinterpret this tape?

It is my understanding that Venom knows exactly what he is talking about, but quickly dismisses everything in an attempt to discourage Huey from talking about it.

It's his business, after all; it's the reason he broke up with Zero and left Cipher. He threatens to bring Ocelot into the conversation in an attempt to spook Huey into thinking that he believes Huey knows more than he was letting on about the subject. In fear of Ocelot, it would be best if he did not talk about it anymore.

But, yeah, I got the same vibe.

 

[Berserker976]

I'm not belittling the games' stories. They're fun and relevant, specially in terms of their message and themes. However, in true MGS fashion, you never get the story straight. You never get the full picture. You always feel, with an MGS narrative, like you're being told the story by someone who doesn't have all the pieces. Who doesn't really know everything.

Same thing with MGSV. It's a revenge tale if you ignore the rest of the franchise, but the real story - the most meaningful happenings in the game that contribute to the rest of the franchise's overarching story, is mostly left in the dark. Just like most other games in the franchise.

Hence why hating on this game in the franchise in particular for that is inconsistent and demonstrates a double standard.

Ah, I think I know where the disconnect is. The other MGS games had main plots that were "fun," "relevant" and had interesting "message(s) and themes." But also had some other, higher plot that they mostly just hinted at, but would often cast the main plot in a slightly different light.

The problem is, I would describe MGSV's main plot as: silent, slow, barely there, and inconsequential. This is why people are having problems I think. MGSV's twist doesn't make you think about the main plot differently, it straight up invalidates it in the canon.

 

[Screaming Meat]

It is without a doubt the most surface level "discussion." There's no real digging into the idea or the theme, even in the tapes. A wasted plot point.

Out of interest, how would you have dug deeper?

 

[Roni]

The problem is, I would describe MGSV's main plot as: silent, slow, barely there, and inconsequential. This is why people are having problems I think. MGSV's twist doesn't make you think about the main plot differently, it straight up invalidates it in the canon.

How so?

 

[SomTervo]

Sure, MGS2 basically cast America as the villain, but I think this is far more of an escalation. Here he is saying unambiguously that the English language's dominance is a cultural dead end. He equates thinking and our understanding of the world with language (a la Sapir-Whorf) and, in those terms, he is basically attacking the foundations of Western Thought and equating it with a parasite. XD

From someone outside of the language, that may seem quite taboo, I think. I can't think of many prominent games, films or other cultural artefacts that go all in on claiming the English Language is essentially weapon of mass control and cultural death. 1984 obviously touches on it, but that's more about the reduction and obfuscation of language (and therefore thought) rather than specifically shaming English.

Didn't see this – I think you're right, but I don't think the execution was forceful enough (same goes for a lot of MGSV's main story beats).

 

[BattleMonkey]

Do the yellow marked combat deployments also count for unlocking all the final missions too?!

 

[JayEH]

Do the yellow marked combat deployments also count for unlocking all the final missions too?!

No.

 

[Berserker976]

How so?

Well, the twist is that you weren't playing as Big Boss, so everything you did up to this point in the game ultimately influenced and led to nothing, which you know because nothing you did is referenced in any earlier games.

 

[Roni]

Well, the twist is that you weren't playing as Big Boss, so everything you did up to this point in the game ultimately influenced and led to nothing, which you know because nothing you did is referenced in any earlier games.

Well that isn't true at all, it clearly says that whatever Big Boss did in the future was a combination of his and his phantom's actions. The line is left deliberately blurred in several cases so that you can insert yourself into the legend and feel like you could've accomplished something along with your idol.

 

[Berserker976]

Well that isn't true at all, it clearly says that whatever Big Boss did in the future was a combination of his and his phantom's actions. The line is left deliberately blurred in several cases so that you can insert yourself into the legend and feel like you could've accomplished something along with your idol.

Like what?

 

[Screaming Meat]

Didn't see this – I think you're right, but I don't think the execution was forceful enough (same goes for a lot of MGSV's main story beats).

Yeah, it's a fine balancing act. Too subtle and people don't think Kojima did anything, too overt and everyone calls him a hack.

 

[GreyOcelot]

Well that isn't true at all, it clearly says that whatever Big Boss did in the future was a combination of his and his phantom's actions. The line is left deliberately blurred in several cases so that you can insert yourself into the legend and feel like you could've accomplished something along with your idol.

exactly.

seems like people just wanted to be big boss recruiting grey fox, naomi, sniper wolf, etc. i bet kojima even thought about doing that, but it probably bored him to tears having to retread stories he came up with 15-30 years ago. he went the other way, just like he did in peace walker, and told a new story that contextualizes the games that came before them (and after in the timeline). i get the complaints about pacing and characters (especially ocelot), but i think the game would be viewed a lot differently if it was simply paced more closely to a traditional metal gear, or even paced like peace walker, where only the main story beats were separated as main ops.

 

[Roni]

Like what?

Build Diamond Dogs, convert Diamong Dogs into Outer Heaven, rescue Gray Fox, liberating Zanzibar, capturing OILIX, rescuing the resistance members. There is so much space in the mythos that you could envision Venom taking on pretty much any tasks attributed to Big Boss. It's supposed to be that way, you're supposed to be able to imagine you participated in Big Boss' greatest achievements in one way or another.

 

[JayEH]

Build Diamond Dogs, convert Diamong Dogs into Outer Heaven, rescue Gray Fox, liberating Zanzibar, capturing OILIX, rescuing the resistance members. There is so much space in the mythos that you could envision Venom taking on pretty much any tasks attributed to Big Boss. It's supposed to be that way, you're supposed to be able to imagine you participated in Big Boss' greatest achievements in one way or another.

Well some of the things you listed there are clearly done by the real Big Boss since it is stated as so/Venom would be dead by then.

exactly.

seems like people just wanted to be big boss recruiting grey fox, naomi, sniper wolf, etc. i bet kojima even thought about doing that, but it probably bored him to tears having to retread stories he came up with 15-30 years ago. he went the other way, just like he did in peace walker, and told a new story that contextualizes the games that came before them (and after in the timeline). i get the complaints about pacing and characters (especially ocelot), but i think the game would be viewed a lot differently if it was simply paced more closely to a traditional metal gear, or even paced like peace walker, where only the main story beats were separated as main ops.

I agree with this. My gut reaction to the twist was I hated it since it wasn't exactly what I wanted as you said the expected story for this game. I got over that aspect of the story quickly. But as you said the pacing and presentation is completely off. That's my problem with it and I imagine many others as well.

 

[CassSept]

#NeverBeGameOver anybody has a clue / idea / theory of what the "bar code" stripes in certain scenes mean?

GZ intro has the bars, metal sally has the bars and a bunch of other scenes.

It's from some AKB48 music video. Kojima thought it looked cool. That's all there is to it.

Yeah.

 

[Berserker976]

Build Diamond Dogs, convert Diamong Dogs into Outer Heaven, rescue Gray Fox, liberating Zanzibar, capturing OILIX, rescuing the resistance members. There is so much space in the mythos that you could envision Venom taking on pretty much any tasks attributed to Big Boss. It's supposed to be that way, you're supposed to be able to imagine you participated in Big Boss' greatest achievements in one way or another.

First off, I'm not sure "the story isn't pointless because you can make stuff up in your head" is a fantastic argument. But in any case, a lot of these aren't possible at all. In the post credits crawl it explicitly states that Big Boss built Outer Heaven, probably while Venom was busy with Diamond Dogs, and then Venom gets killed by Solid Snake in MG1.

So, not tons of wiggle room.

Also, I mentioned this in an earlier post, but, the legend of Big Boss is pretty much fully established pre-MGSV. He's known and basically worshiped by every soldier in the world, how much more of a legend does he need?

 

[Reebot]

It's from some AKB48 music video. Kojima thought it looked cool. That's all there is to it.

Yeah.

Nah its all part of a master ruse that's been left ongoing for over a month, Kojima is just so amazing at ruses.

he went the other way, just like he did in peace walker, and told a new story that contextualizes the games that came before them (and after in the timeline).

I know I was just dying to find out how Big Boss survived in that 8-bit game

First off, I'm not sure "the story isn't pointless because you can make stuff up in your head" is a fantastic argument.

If you shut off your TV and make something else up MGS V has a great story.

 

[wilsonda]

No, that's Mission 51, not Chapter 3.

You are correct... not sure why I said chapter 3 lmao

 

[GreyOcelot]

Well some of the things you listed there are clearly done by the real Big Boss since it is stated as so/Venom would be dead by then.



I agree with this. My gut reaction to the twist was I hated it since it wasn't exactly what I wanted as you said the expected story for this game. I got over that aspect of the story quickly. But as you said the pacing and presentation is completely off. That's my problem with it and I imagine many others as well.

it's just really strange how he wanted to make it more like a TV show, but the pacing is not like a modern TV show. the only stretch that is like a modern TV show is episodes 28-31. modern television dramas don't have disjointed narratives and episodes anymore really. most of the big modern dramas are serialized so much that they function like really long movies, and not disjointed collections of episodes about different characters and topics.

 

[Ashura_MX]

Nah its all part of a master ruse that's been left ongoing for over a month, Kojima is just so amazing at ruses.



I know I was just dying to find out how Big Boss survived in that 8-bit game



If you shut off your TV and make something else up MGS V has a great story.

A) Well, I can live with that (Kojima referencing shit he likes and using it in the game)

B) Me too

C) lol, agreed

 

[Berserker976]

it's just really strange how he wanted to make it more like a TV show, but the pacing is not like a modern TV show. the only stretch that is like a modern TV show is episodes 28-31. modern television dramas don't have disjointed narratives and episodes anymore really. most of the big modern dramas are serialized so much that they function like really long movies, and not disjointed collections of episodes about different characters and topics.

Yeah, ironically, modern TV shows follow a structure more similar to past MGS games.

 

[GreyOcelot]

I know I was just dying to find out how Big Boss survived in that 8-bit game

.

are you trying to trivialize the original MG? seemed like everyone wanted this game to bridge into MG1. it did exactly that. just not in the fashion you wanted.

 

[Reebot]

are you trying to trivialize the original MG? seemed like everyone wanted this game to bridge into MG1. it did exactly that. just not in the fashion you wanted.

Yeah no, it didn't, since BB surviving is basically irrelevant to the plot. He makes it out. Who cares how. Its revealed in a little footnote since the details don't matter.

There's so much more interesting material to dig into just left by the wayside.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I mentioned this in an earlier post, but, the legend of Big Boss is pretty much fully established pre-MGSV. He's known and basically worshiped by every soldier in the world, how much more of a legend does he need?

I think the point of that ending is to explicitly acknowledge the player's complicity in perpetuating the myth via having played MGS3, PW and GZ. We're the phantom. The game is very much about the people behind the scenes of future and past titles that were wiped from the records: Skull Face, Venom, Quiet, and - more interestingly (and literally) - the players themselves.

In terms of narrative, Ocelot explains it. Venom brings "the legend back to life" and subsequently keeps it alive, something Big Boss couldn't do as he was putting together OH. 9 years is a long time. We see that myth grow again, specifically in the conversations of the guards as the game progresses. We continue building that legend when we continue to play the game.

That's my take at least.

 

[The Silver]

exactly.

seems like people just wanted to be big boss recruiting grey fox, naomi, sniper wolf, etc. i bet kojima even thought about doing that, but it probably bored him to tears having to retread stories he came up with 15-30 years ago. he went the other way, just like he did in peace walker, and told a new story that contextualizes the games that came before them (and after in the timeline). i get the complaints about pacing and characters (especially ocelot), but i think the game would be viewed a lot differently if it was simply paced more closely to a traditional metal gear, or even paced like peace walker, where only the main story beats were separated as main ops.

the problem is it doesn't really do that

Venom, the main twist of the game, he's completely inconsequential outside of some old 8 bit game that barely had a story in the first place. Nothing changes for Solid or Liquid, they never learned the truth, BB and Eva fail to mention him, Venom ends up being nothing since we've already seen the definitive end in MGS4 and he's a no show.

The only major character who gets any real develpment that places his actions in a new light is Zero. You could've gone a lot farther here and included more of the Patriots, do something more with Liquid fucking Snake, Mantis is a plot device, he finally has Ocelot not acting like a sneaky spy and we get nothing new from him.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Did EVA know about Venom?

 

[Ashura_MX]

Bit of a shame they had (because reasons) market this as MGS instead of Metal Gear Venom. It works much better as a stand alone game (if you cut the "we're all big boss bullshit at the end)

 

[Reebot]

Did EVA know about Venom?

Probably. She and Ocelot we're buds, he'd fill her in. Zero might have sent her a memo too since he seems to have gone soft.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Bit of a shame they had (because reasons) market this as MGS instead of Metal Gear Venom. It works much better as a stand alone game (if you cut the "we're all big boss bullshit at the end)

I don't think that was quite what the game was trying to say.

Probably. She and Ocelot we're buds, he'd fill her in. Zero might have sent her a memo too since he seems to have gone soft.

It's not explicitly stated though, right?

 

[JayEH]

Bit of a shame they had (because reasons) market this as MGS instead of Metal Gear Venom. It works much better as a stand alone game (if you cut the "we're all big boss bullshit at the end)

Well it is MGS Venom. Kojima tried to get it done subtly with you you thinking it's a 5 until you beat the game and realize it's actually for venom. He wanted to do something similar with MGS2 with its original title supposed to be MGS III representing the three largest buildings in new york.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Venom, the main twist of the game, he's completely inconsequential outside of some old 8 bit game that barely had a story in the first place.

Are you kidding?

 

[Hopeford]

My issue with the twist is that it doesn't really add...well, anything to anything. Like okay, Venom isn't Big Boss...but Snake still killed both Venom and Big Boss. So this means that...I don't know, just don't really feel the emotional punch from the twist considering Venom doesn't amount to anything by himself.

Like I can kind of appreciate the idea of him keeping BB's legend alive while Big Boss is doing his thing but like...well, Venom reacts so little to everything that my reaction to the twist is basically his reaction to the entire game, which is kind of just going "Okay." Like the twist doesn't upset me or anything, it's just kind of...there? It doesn't really do anything to me. I guess maybe if the medic was a character with more lines in Ground Zeroes or something then maybe it would have been different.

As it is I'm just like..."Eh, okay, sure."

 

[Screaming Meat]

My issue with the twist is that it doesn't really add...well, anything to anything. Like okay, Venom isn't Big Boss...but Snake still killed both Venom and Big Boss. So this means that...I don't know, just don't really feel the emotional punch from the twist considering Venom doesn't amount to anything by himself.

Like I can kind of appreciate the idea of him keeping BB's legend alive while Big Boss is doing his thing but like...well, Venom reacts so little to everything that my reaction to the twist is basically his reaction to the entire game, which is kind of just going "Okay." Like the twist doesn't upset me or anything, it's just kind of...there? It doesn't really do anything to me. I guess maybe if the medic was a character with more lines in Ground Zeroes or something then maybe it would have been different.

As it is I'm just like..."Eh, okay, sure."

It tells us a lot more about BB than it does Venom. He's basically become exactly what he despises.

 

[Reebot]

It's not explicitly stated though, right?

Not that I can remember, but it'd be extremely out of character for one of the two not to fill her in.

 

[Ashura_MX]

Well it is MGS Venom.

Except not, because you're building on Big Boss hype and get help from the Big Boss buddies.

Now if Big Boss died and the twist at the end is that Ishmael was just hallucination, and Venom continues the legend, is more cliche but it would work best for me having the final hallucination of BB "Go my phantom and become an evil bastard"

 

[SRG01]

It tells us a lot more about BB than it does Venom. He's basically become exactly what he despises.

Yup, it also calls back to the infamous Solid Snake quote about legends:

A legend is usually bad news. Someone tells it, someone else remembers, everybody passes it on.

The legend of Big Boss keeps being passed on, as someone who was the ultimate soldier and so forth. But in reality he was a coward and hypocrite, and let someone else do the dirty work for him.

Solid Snake, on the other hand, is rightfully a legend but he refuses to be called one.