akidnamededdy
Banned
I was driving to work today and Mike Oldfield's Nuclear came up on my playlist, remembered the trailer and actually blurted out "Man fuck you Kojima." I guess I'm still upset.
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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
So liquid has to meet the real big boss at one point right? Because his entire speech in mgs1 makes no sense unless he did. Too bad there isn't a game that explores the relationship of big boss and liquid perhaps explaining liquid's inferiority complex in mgs1. It's not like that's what was teased in trailers or anything.
I don't think Eli knows that Venom Snake isn't BB, he even called it father.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
Really came away satisfied by the ending. Loved to see the story loop around after three decades to Big Boss' phantom slamming the tape into the MSX. It's funny, there's so much non-verbal storytelling that makes the twist obvious, and going in knowing the "twist" made me appreciate it that much more. I really don't feel like that was the point, and the last few lines from BB about how the mythos of the Legendary Soldier, Big Boss is a construction, now made up by two people - BB going dark to do some dirt in order to build Outer Heaven, with his Phantom wiping out the enemies that pursue him.
Like Kojima went ahead and made it pretty blatant - "two phantoms were born," the beginning of the hospital scene which gives major Face/Off vibes, the reflection in the helicopter, all the way down to the fact that Venom, who used to be a Medic, only vapes - while the real BB lights up a stoagie. Venom walks with his head down, rarely talks, defers to those around him. There's a hell of a lot of characterization that isn't explicitly spelled out until the very end, but its pretty obvious from the beginning onwards.
It's pretty awesome. I wish we found out what happened to the Mother Base from TPP between then and Metal Gear 1, but its not important. I'm more impressed by the achievement Kojima's made in spending three decades - from 1987 to 2015 - to wrap this entire storyline around, across various consoles and as the technology as well as the medium has changed as rapidly as it has over the years. It's not perfect and certainly has its flaws, but I think that comes with being on the fringe as far as Kojima has taken games over the decades. Hell, look at all the other "gaming gods" over the years and how low they've fallen. Romero, CliffyB, Spector, etc etc. Only Kojima has stayed on top all this time.
A real diamond in the rough.
Like Kojima went ahead and made it pretty blatant - "two phantoms were born," the beginning of the hospital scene which gives major Face/Off vibes, the reflection in the helicopter, all the way down to the fact that Venom, who used to be a Medic, only vapes - while the real BB lights up a stoagie. Venom walks with his head down, rarely talks, defers to those around him. There's a hell of a lot of characterization that isn't explicitly spelled out until the very end, but its pretty obvious from the beginning onwards.
It's pretty awesome. I wish we found out what happened to the Mother Base from TPP between then and Metal Gear 1, but its not important. I'm more impressed by the achievement Kojima's made in spending three decades - from 1987 to 2015 - to wrap this entire storyline around, across various consoles and as the technology as well as the medium has changed as rapidly as it has over the years. It's not perfect and certainly has its flaws, but I think that comes with being on the fringe as far as Kojima has taken games over the decades. Hell, look at all the other "gaming gods" over the years and how low they've fallen. Romero, CliffyB, Spector, etc etc. Only Kojima has stayed on top all this time.
A real diamond in the rough.
Amen.
Berserker976
Member
God, no.
Putting little hints in the game about what the twist is going to be doesn't count as "characterization," and it doesn't make the twist any less pointless. Kojima utterly failed at wrapping anything up with this game. If you look at it from an overall lore perspective, it is utterly inconsequential. It's a side story trying to clumsily worm its way into the fiction. It says nothing of importance about any of the characters or events in the other games (Miller and Huey somewhat excluded).
Kojima took a franchise with an appealing gameplay-narrative design and changed how it worked on a basic level. In doing so he destroyed any sense of pacing, and cohesion the series used to be famous for.
MGSV is a travesty.
akidnamededdy
Banned
Yeah I gotta agree with this one.
Roni
Gold Member
That's a cool opinion, bro. But the plot is key in illustrating what really happened to the most important relationship in the franchise.
The way I see it, everything important or substantial about the story was already wrapped up in MGS1-PW. We already know everything. Kojima literally couldn't add anything to this game that would impact the larger narrative. He could only add detail or flavour. Sure, the twist wasn't necessary in the overall narrative, but it filled in a nice small blank. He couldn't have done anything substantial to the series anyway. This tied with his new-found focus on gameplay first, over everything.
Before MGSV even started:
> we knew why BB is bitter
> we knew why BB becomes a demon (he basically already had by the end of PW and the Truth mission solidifies it at the end)
> we knew who the Patriots were, where they came from, and why (MGS V fills in nice details like Zero's distance from the AI project)
> we knew where Liquid and Solid fit in (MGSV did fail by not including chapter 51 though, which was so important to Liquid's development)
> we knew what happens after Outer Heaven, through to the death of Big Boss in 2014
MGSV just filled in the minor blank of how Outer Heaven was founded and the events of MG1. Which were both tiny plot points anyway. And it told it's own decent story at the same time.
Berserker976
Member
David and Hal?
And thanks for complimenting my opinion, always feels good to see people validate your ideas.
Old
Jeevesmeister
Banned
I'm sorry you didn't get what you specifically wanted but if you're still caring about Metal Gear at this point for the "lore," then you're a lost soul, sorry.
Metal Gear has never been about "lore," its been Kojima using the medium of games to talk about higher ideals such as myth, digital discourse, patriotism, the use of nonlinear warfare in the form of corporate controlled discourse platforms (i.e. twitter, etc) as a method of political control, etc etc. "Lore" is boring.
There's certainly flaws worth criticizing, but jesus christ, tone down the hyperbole.
Oh horseshit. It's the best hundred hours or so experience to come out of gaming in a long, long time.
I actually discovered this very early on in my playthrough. I suspected the twist from the prologue alone but that pretty much confirmed it 120 hours prior to me actually getting to the end.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
You know, in retrospect, I don't think the "taboo" subject that Kojima was tackling was really the Child Soldiers (although you won't find any game that would even touch that with a 12 foot barge pole).
At one point, I thought it might be the classic "AIDs in Africa was manmade" conspiracy theory that the VCP seem analogous to, but that isn't all that of a taboo. Just crazy people talk.
I now think it is the fact that he is talking about the English Language as a parasite, as analogous with globalization and American imperialism, and as a destroyer of civilisations and cultures. Like, Code Talker and Skull Face go all out in slamming it. I think that's a pretty bold statement for a video game to make, I think, and I can understand why someone from Japan might think that a taboo subject. There is some irony then that this was the game meant to appeal to more Western, English-Speaking audiences.
Couldn't have put it better.
On another note: Zero is actually really cool, isn't he?
At one point, I thought it might be the classic "AIDs in Africa was manmade" conspiracy theory that the VCP seem analogous to, but that isn't all that of a taboo. Just crazy people talk.
I now think it is the fact that he is talking about the English Language as a parasite, as analogous with globalization and American imperialism, and as a destroyer of civilisations and cultures. Like, Code Talker and Skull Face go all out in slamming it. I think that's a pretty bold statement for a video game to make, I think, and I can understand why someone from Japan might think that a taboo subject. There is some irony then that this was the game meant to appeal to more Western, English-Speaking audiences.
Couldn't have put it better.
On another note: Zero is actually really cool, isn't he?
David and Hal?
And thanks for complimenting my opinion, always feels good to see people validate your ideas.
I believe he is referring to Zero/Big Boss.
What? Really? It's my fault for caring about a plot that has been going on for over 25 years?
Kinda retcons the retcon of Zero being a villain especially hearing all of Eva's speech in 4.
I already did all tasks, it's just the mission itself is very boring (if you need to complete all tasks, I mean).
Berserker976
Member
I actually mostly agree with this, but I would add characters to the mix. When I said "lore" I should have been more clear. I didn't necessarily mean the basic plot continuity. I was including the series' many themes and ideas (most of which use the overall plot as a vehicle, but I digress) since, as you pointed out, that stuff is way more important to the series than who was where doing what, when.
So, what themes did MGSV successfully tackle, in your opinion?
I would agree but I'm pretty sure in MGS2 etc America was insanely criticised. Like they really fucking went all out on how much it's fucking up the world. The language thing is new here and the broad colonial message is definitely great - I wouldn't call it taboo, though?
And yeah, Zero's development in the post-Truth tapes was fantastic. It never gelled with me how he became a villain he was so clearly and heavily played as a good guy in MGS3.
I disagree, Mission 31 ending does the "men become demons" and closes the GZ <-> TPP arc.
The execution is terrible, but I'll take this before the mental circus that is Mission 46
Berserker976
Member
Yeah, in MGS2 The Patriots were literally a consciousness that developed from the American zeitgeist over hundreds of years... it was awesome.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
akidnamededdy
Banned
Oh yeah relegating it to a brief audio tape you unlock only after a hundred hours of bullshit really shows its importance.
I'm only assuming you're referring to the Zero truth tapes, the fact that I can't say so for certain should illustrate just how poorly anything related to the overall series story is handled in this game.
But like that other guy said, fuck me for caring about a story thirty years in the making, right? Kojima obviously didn't.
Roni
Gold Member
David and Hal?
And thanks for complimenting my opinion, always feels good to see people validate your ideas.
David Oh and John. How their animosity shaped the world for the next 4 decades and how Skull Face crushed their chances of reconciliation by putting one in a coma for 9 years and killing the other's brain.
Calm down and think back to the other games. This isn't the first time the real story is left out of focus. Happened to MG1, MG2, MGS1, MGS2, MGS4, Peace Walker and now MGSV.
The Metal Gear franchise has always been about misdirection. MGS3 was the only time the narrative and the real story walked hand in hand. This is nothing new and you shouldn't have expected anything different.
And even in MGS3, while the story is much more direct, you're left in the dark as to what it all means.
Kojima has been ridiculing people like you since Metal Gear Solid 2.
Really now. And please stop trying to compare this to mgs2.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Not really. There is no such thing as an enemy in absolute terms, after all, and TPP sticks that idea. Zero still believes he is the only exponent of the true will of The Boss (that much is shown in the tapes) and it is still a twisted world view, he just doesn't want to see his old friend murdered. Even Venom:Boss doesn't believe Zero would want him dead. They were ideological enemies, like Magneto/Xavier. I thought that was a really cool and quite touching.
Sure, MGS2 basically cast America as the villain, but I think this is far more of an escalation. Here he is saying unambiguously that the English language's dominance is a cultural dead end. He equates thinking and our understanding of the world with language (a la Sapir-Whorf) and, in those terms, he is basically attacking the foundations of Western Thought and equating it with a parasite. XD
From someone outside of the language, that may seem quite taboo, I think. I can't think of many prominent games, films or other cultural artefacts that go all in on claiming the English Language is essentially weapon of mass control and cultural death. 1984 obviously touches on it, but that's more about the reduction and obfuscation of language (and therefore thought) rather than specifically shaming English.
akidnamededdy
Banned
I don't know what you're on about. The only other game in the franchise that involved misdirection on this level was MGS2, and the difference here is that MGS2 was kind of brilliant. I'm not just talking about plot twists, which is what I think you're getting at when you rattle off your list of every game in the series.
And there's not really anything to be left in the dark about when it comes to MGS3. It told you all you needed to know about Big Boss's future attitude. Everything since then has been fluff that only serves to complicate things further.
I just realised... Is it Quiet who says "V has come to"? Because I always thought it was Paz, it sounds like Paz, but obviously she's dead. Who else could it be? One of the nurses? There's a slight lilt in the accent which makes me think it's Quiet. I thought she was just dispatched to kill Snake off, not to report on his status.
It sounds like you're the one who's comparing it to MGS2 from this thread. (Not saying you are, haven't read all your posts.)
MGSV is it's own game. It doesn't even have a number at the end. It's Metal Gear Solid Venom. I wouldn't ever want another MGS2. MGS2 stands on its own.
It sounds like you're the one who's comparing it to MGS2 from this thread. (Not saying you are, haven't read all your posts.)
MGSV is it's own game. It doesn't even have a number at the end. It's Metal Gear Solid Venom. I wouldn't ever want another MGS2. MGS2 stands on its own.
Regardless how I feel about mgsv in total... the video for the missing chapter three with that amazing concept art... it makes me want to Kickstart a campaign to get konami to either
1.) Build and release chapter 3... I will buy it for 10 bucks
2.) Sell me all of theor mgsv concept art so I can die a happy man
3.) All of the above
1.) Build and release chapter 3... I will buy it for 10 bucks
2.) Sell me all of theor mgsv concept art so I can die a happy man
3.) All of the above
Zero is just a guy who let his ambitions run away with him. Zero isn't really a terrible guy, his "phantom" is -- i.e. the legacy he left to the world. His ideals that he tried to carry on were carried too far, and he couldn't stop it. He created this monster (Cipher, and later, the Patriots) for good but it turned out evil. That's what I make of Zero.
Actually, that's what I make of Venom and Big Boss as well. They're not really evil dudes, and their actions were defined by the times in which they lived.
I think MGSV is a game about a character as a person vs a character as the sum of their ideals and ambitions. They are in no way the same, but history remembers the latter instead of the former without fail.
Berserker976
Member
Actually, it seemingly changes it to: There is no such thing as an enemy, not even in relative terms.
Let's not forget that in MGS4 Eva referred to the conflict between Zero and Big Boss as a war. In fact, her speech still does more to characterize their conflict than anything else.
You're going to have to expand on the bolded, because I cannot even fathom what this implies. How is the story not the focus in like.... all of those games?
Also I'd argue the relationship between Zero and Big Boss isn't really addressed much at all in this game. Sure, we get a hospital visit in one of the truth tapes, but for 99% of the game we're following the story of some dude Big Boss slapped a "Kick Me" sign on.
Spring-Loaded
Member
I saw someone say they avoided Quiet leaving without using the butterfly emblem by completing all base development, or something? They sounded like they didn't really know what they were talking about though.
Sounds like its one of the nurses.
And about the MGS2 comment, I personally don't compare it to MGS2. I have seen others try to but I don't think the comparison works. I was bringing up 2 since the other member had said that Kojima has been making fun of
"people like you since MGS2".
Inferno313
Banned
Are you talking about Mission 51 or did I miss something about a chapter 3 video?
Mission 51 was the finale for Chapter 2.
Jeevesmeister
Banned
The whole fucking point of the Raiden reveal is that he's essentially the player of Metal Gear Solid 1, and a middle finger to the worship of Solid Snake. Also I can easily compare this to MGS2.
At one point in MGS2 the President is surfing on a harrier jet piloted by a vampire. At one point in MGSV a boobie lady snipes the pilot of a fighter jet sent by a man literally named Skull Face from the side of a helicopter. It's a bit of magical realism, absurdity if you will, that serves as a reminder not to get too worked up by the specifics of the plot, and appreciate the moments for what they are.
The three biggest takeaways from Phantom Pain, at least for me, is first how trama manifests after an awful event, i.e. the end of Ground Zeroes, and how it changes people - Kaz and Venom specifically. Kaz loses an arm and a leg and his sight, and becomes downright sinister, while Venom loses an arm, has shrapnel manifesting into a horn, and is sunken, melancholy, and the contrast of the two framed by fucking Revolver Ocelot - which if you know anything about Ocelot before and after this game - being played as the straight man between the two, is powerful and really well done. Language and the consequences of the English language taking over the world is another huge one I'm still thinking through and will have to go back to. And the third, with that end monologue from BB, about the realities of how myths are constructed, is pretty important.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It is a war, albeit a "Cold" ideological one, mostly fought in the intelligence arena. The first real shots fired between them (when the war goes "Hot") is the Outer Heaven Uprising, which turns out not to be between them at all. Every subsequent uprising is part of the ongoing war.
Search on youtube for mgsv chapter 3 and I think you'll find the video. There was a chapter 3 where you find Eli and face off. This part was unfinished and cut from the game. However, a video documentary with unfinished cutscenes and concept art was released on the CE blu ray disc. It is on YouTube as well but I'm on mobile now and can't link it directly.
Inferno313
Banned
No, that's Mission 51, not Chapter 3.
Roni
Gold Member
Oh, really?
So MG1 is just about a rookie soldier stopping a nuclear incident by destroying an entire fortress led by his boss? No. It's about a botched counter-intelligence operation gone superbly wrong. Counter-intelligence? Countering who? The Patriots. Who are not even mentioned in the game.
And MG2 is just about a new country threatening the world and Solid Snake being called back into duty to stop them? No, it tells the story of how Big Boss lost the war he was fighting. Through the use of a weapon designed to be superior to him, a weapon which was being manipulated by his 'greatest' enemy. That weapon was his clone; and the player.
And would MGS' story only be about a group of mad men led by the second clone of Big Boss who wants to live in his father's footsteps and rebuild Outer Heaven? Yeah, and for that he needs the corpse of Big Boss to fix his genome army. Except Solidus is behind the whole scheme - being manipulated by Ocelot, using Liquid to force the Patriots into releasing Big Boss. And this plot point is not even mentioned in the game, not even in a little dialogue tape, it is only revealed in the sequels.
MGS2 is just a brilliant espionage thriller with a meta commentary on how players aspire to be like their heroes? Yeah, but it's really about how Ocelot finally managed to one-up the Patriots and hijack their biggest weapon and, with that, set up the field for MGS4.
MGS4 is the story of how Solid finally killed Liquid and deactivated the Patriots, right? Well, it's really the story of how Ocelot and EVA manipulated you into doing their bidding all the while painting themselves as targets to the Patriots system so the Patriots themselves would actually help you in destroying them.
Peace Walker tells the story of how Snake finally came to hate/deny the Boss' will. Easy!
Well, what about the creation of the Patriots? What about LET? Yeah... that's not really in game except for the secret tape you get for playing the game for 100 hours.
I'm assuming I don't need to mention MGSV, since you're so passionate about it.
Read above.
He's still kind of a villain, but this game does add some extra depth to it and reinforce one of the series' core themes of how a person's legacy ends up being corrupted and used beyond what they intended.
You know what? I like MGS2. I like that it's not a traditional sequel. But that's because it actually has a bigger message and it's Raiden bait and switch is well integrated into that game's plot. MGSV is full of half baked ideas that never get fully fleshed out. What's the overarching theme of MGSV? Because I can't think of one. Is it revenge? Kaz is out for revenge sure but that makes him a one dimensional character. Quiet wants revenge on Venom even though he never was the one to burn her. Liquid wants revenge just because Liquid said he wanted revenge in MGS1. His character development is complete ass in this game. Venom doesn't give a fuck about anything and just rolls with whatever Kaz says. The theme is certainly not race so who the fuck knows why Chapter 2 is called that. Phantom Pain as a concept is never really touched upon besides Miller being angry again. The one time it's actually used very well is in the Paz storyline.
Not even getting to themes, the plot of MGSV is just dumb. Even discounting the greater MGS plot, this is a weak plot. The pacing is awful, there's no buildup, you have a villain that is barely expanded on. Then you have a twist that comes at the end of the game for no reason what so ever. It shows up in your mission list for no reason. You're told the revelation then the game ends. Wow you got me Kojima. So no this is a very failed attempt at a MGS2 like plot.
The point is MGS2 entire level design, mission design, enemy design, etc all is a build up to the final reveal towards the end. MGSV is not that. It's Kojima wanting to tell this meta narrative about the player's role in MG as a whole but the game doesn't build up to this. You're given some clues in the prologue and a couple of others thing sprinkled here and there. You look at MGS2 and it is from top to bottom designed to be the game it is. MGSV wants to be that but then Kojima is like well I need to have a plot that makes sense in this time frame. Maybe Kojima never cared about the lore. Maybe the entire series was never about the lore and I shouldn't care about it as much as I do. But what MGSV tries to accomplish isn't well done. So even then, I am not satisfied with this game's plot discounting the greater lore.
Yah said it in the main thread, but I'd definitely pay for a Chapter 3 set in a new location. After 200+ hours (lol) I'm starting to get a little fatigued by Afghanistan and Africa. The gameplay in this is just so good.
Yes, it's revenge. They use the word hundreds of times and it's a motivating factor for virtually every character. You may like how it came through in the final game, but come on, Kojima repeats his themes in like every other sentence of these games.
Gene --> Meme --> Scene --> Sense/Will --> Peace --> Revenge
akidnamededdy
Banned
So we're pretending that Kojima had the idea for the Patriots while writing any of the games released before MGS2 now? Gimme a fucking break dude.
From the other translations race stands for that (a car race) or arms race, but I've yet to actually beign chapter 2 so who knows. Still, a race makes more sense than it being about human races.
Berserker976
Member
Awesome, thanks for elaborating! Now, let's take a closer look at what TPP has to say about these issues.
How trauma manifests itself after an awful event - I assume you're rolling the theme of revenge into this, as your examples are Kaz and Venom. So, you say this trauma and lust for revenge turns Miller into a sinister, presumably bad, guy. Does the game back this up? Miller is aggressive to Quiet and Huey, both of which he ends up being 100% right about. He sets up a program designed to disarm and reintegrate child soldiers into society (Venom's first impulse was to use them as soldiers). He sets up an animal refuge. He's the driving force behind total global disarmament of nuclear weapons. Now let's look at Venom. Is he driven by revenge? Does he act the way he acts because of trauma? These questions become almost impossible to answer once we find out he's hypnotized and not the real Big Boss.
Language and the consequences of the English language taking over the world - This one is an extremely interesting idea that has its exploration unfortunately relegated to a single speech made by the villain in a jeep, and some tapes. Of the three you listed, I would say this one is explored the most, but it's still lacking any kind of cohesion.
The realities of how myths are constructed - This theme is almost entirely undermined by the fact that the "Big Boss Legend" is fully established before the events of TPP take place. It's even mentioned in an early tape that every soldier in the world knows and respects the name "Big Boss." I guess the ending was trying to say that you helped in perpetuating that legend, but in the grand scheme of things, everything you did turned out to be pretty inconsequential.
TPP's problem isn't that it completely lacks interesting themes, it's that it fails at saying anything meaningful about them, unlike every other MGS game, in my opinion.
Spring-Loaded
Member
There's room for more gameplay refinements too. I'd pay for Chapter 3 if it had a lot of new gameplay stuff, similar to the jump between GZ and TPP.
There's a few tapes after the last mission.