SiteSeer
Member
oh god, one of the treatments is derived from wormwood.
i've got like 2600 at mother base!
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
oh god, one of the treatments is derived from wormwood.
having beaten the story stuff last night, it's taken a while to let everything settle in. i was actually pretty good about avoiding spoilers and doing a media blackout. the big twist is fairly telegraphed and people had been speculating ever since the announcement trailer from 2013 that kiefer sutherland was voicing two characters.
but mostly i went in blind, except knowing there was a controversial twist and that the game was 'unfinished'. i don't exactly agree.
with this being the last mgs from kojima, i definitely expected more of the mgs4 style. just overwrought with melodrama and things happening just for longtime fans of the series. instead, the game is considerably more reserved and pulls back on a lot of what i had expected. despite parasites, a nuke-launching robo-missing link, clones, and hypnotherapy, there's not a lot of exposition outside of one scene. the 'tone' of the game for the majority of my time with it was spent listening to 80s music while infiltrating bases, something that was hilariously out of place and welcome all at once as i started gaining more tools, and especially towards the end when i had a rocket launcher and stopped giving a shit. as a game it was immensely satisfying, and with me putting in over 40 hours, i felt like i had my fill and no more. fortunately, i did not feel burnt out at the end.
because i am a robot, i wasn't moved by mission 43, which felt like a prolonged ending of mgs3 (where the same motif was a lot stronger). the only time i winced was at the loss of heroism throughout the level. it's actually a nice touch to make the player feel there was a consequence to their actions. i did however really like the following stuff with venom snake and the ashes of the soldier. it's probably the one scene with the most earnestness in its drama. a lot of that has to do with kiefer sutherland. very quickly into this game i did not give a shit that david hayter was gone. kiefer's voice and performance was a lot more genuinely grizzled and tough, so that when he says 'you are all diamonds,' i can actually believe it. it's difficult for me to imagine believing that line with david hayter behind the delivery.
actually, a lot of the voice acting is a step up over previous entries. ocelot in mgs, mgs2, and mgs4 (and to a lesser extent mgs3 since he's referencing those other games) is a fucking cartoon character. same with cam clarke and david hayter. everyone's kind of hammy in these games which is part of their charm. mgsv tries to legitimize the performances and pulls in some better actors. although i think troy baker sounded almost exactly like joel from the last of us. i don't think there was a way for ocelot to have sounded like a normal person to be honest. the weakest point in the game was probably code talker though, with kaz not too far behind.
regarding the story, there are severe pacing issues. two thirds of the story is about seeking revenge on cipher and connecting metal gear to big boss's story from the 60s and 70s. the other third of the story is literally all about setup for metal gear solid. this is the part of the game that's really dumb. i loved that psycho mantis was this creepy little monster, that eli was a little shit, and that volgin was a demon from big boss's past. they also have almost no bearing on the story whatsoever and only exist to set up future events. while they have their own plots that are resolved, you could take them out of the main game and lose nothing. you would probably gain a lot more with a tighter focus on the whole skull face/snake/quiet stuff that was going on, characters who commanded screen presence beyond the novelty of being cameos.
quiet was interesting for me because i felt like her character design was really stupid (as were a couple 'bonus' scenes), but as the game progressed and since she was so damn useful, i really liked having her around. i could trust she could have my back in a tough situation - first tranquing folks with the guilty butterfly and later murdering skulls with the sinful butterfly as i ran around without anything to take them on except a lousy shotgun and some grenades. so when she leaves, i could actually notice that absence - and during her final mission, it actually felt good having her back at least one more time. the scene with her single-handedly murdering the entire platoon of soviets while venom just kinda watched like, 'well, that's what you get' was pretty hilarious too. as i've mentioned before, the part that falters for me is quiet saying she has forsaken her vengeance but doesn't allow for the wolbachia to neutralize the strain? i like part with her speaking english, but it doesn't feel like a big deal when we know there's a 'cure.'
speaking of character motivations that don't work for me: miller is a stupid asshole and i hate him. your crutch is a literal crutch: get an arm and a leg you moron. if he's really so hellbent on revenge, he seems to be the kind of guy who would want it personally on the battlefield. a fake-ass big boss can do the hard work, but miller would rather brood and be a pissy little baby the entire game. i touched on this earlier, and screamingmeat's explained his thoughts on him too, but i still don't think ocelot works as a version of him knowing what we do of mgs3 cocky brat ocelot and 00-10s 'actual insane person' ocelot. he comes across as the voice of reason way too often for what we know of him in the past and the future. he's creative with torture but that's about it.
as for the big twist - i am pretty okay with it. i don't think we needed an explanation for why big boss survives the outer heaven uprising, but i do like venom snake as a character. i also don't feel like the game was unfinished. to be really honest, it felt like the game's major story is about what happens with cipher and skull face, while 'chapter 2' is merely an epilogue following the major players involved. in a sense, it feels finished and then some. but i also don't think the eli/psycho mantis stuff actually matters so maybe that's why people felt like the game is incomplete. i just don't know where the story could have possibly gone, as all the loose ends seemed pretty tied up.
but mostly i went in blind, except knowing there was a controversial twist and that the game was 'unfinished'. i don't exactly agree.
with this being the last mgs from kojima, i definitely expected more of the mgs4 style. just overwrought with melodrama and things happening just for longtime fans of the series. instead, the game is considerably more reserved and pulls back on a lot of what i had expected. despite parasites, a nuke-launching robo-missing link, clones, and hypnotherapy, there's not a lot of exposition outside of one scene. the 'tone' of the game for the majority of my time with it was spent listening to 80s music while infiltrating bases, something that was hilariously out of place and welcome all at once as i started gaining more tools, and especially towards the end when i had a rocket launcher and stopped giving a shit. as a game it was immensely satisfying, and with me putting in over 40 hours, i felt like i had my fill and no more. fortunately, i did not feel burnt out at the end.
because i am a robot, i wasn't moved by mission 43, which felt like a prolonged ending of mgs3 (where the same motif was a lot stronger). the only time i winced was at the loss of heroism throughout the level. it's actually a nice touch to make the player feel there was a consequence to their actions. i did however really like the following stuff with venom snake and the ashes of the soldier. it's probably the one scene with the most earnestness in its drama. a lot of that has to do with kiefer sutherland. very quickly into this game i did not give a shit that david hayter was gone. kiefer's voice and performance was a lot more genuinely grizzled and tough, so that when he says 'you are all diamonds,' i can actually believe it. it's difficult for me to imagine believing that line with david hayter behind the delivery.
actually, a lot of the voice acting is a step up over previous entries. ocelot in mgs, mgs2, and mgs4 (and to a lesser extent mgs3 since he's referencing those other games) is a fucking cartoon character. same with cam clarke and david hayter. everyone's kind of hammy in these games which is part of their charm. mgsv tries to legitimize the performances and pulls in some better actors. although i think troy baker sounded almost exactly like joel from the last of us. i don't think there was a way for ocelot to have sounded like a normal person to be honest. the weakest point in the game was probably code talker though, with kaz not too far behind.
regarding the story, there are severe pacing issues. two thirds of the story is about seeking revenge on cipher and connecting metal gear to big boss's story from the 60s and 70s. the other third of the story is literally all about setup for metal gear solid. this is the part of the game that's really dumb. i loved that psycho mantis was this creepy little monster, that eli was a little shit, and that volgin was a demon from big boss's past. they also have almost no bearing on the story whatsoever and only exist to set up future events. while they have their own plots that are resolved, you could take them out of the main game and lose nothing. you would probably gain a lot more with a tighter focus on the whole skull face/snake/quiet stuff that was going on, characters who commanded screen presence beyond the novelty of being cameos.
quiet was interesting for me because i felt like her character design was really stupid (as were a couple 'bonus' scenes), but as the game progressed and since she was so damn useful, i really liked having her around. i could trust she could have my back in a tough situation - first tranquing folks with the guilty butterfly and later murdering skulls with the sinful butterfly as i ran around without anything to take them on except a lousy shotgun and some grenades. so when she leaves, i could actually notice that absence - and during her final mission, it actually felt good having her back at least one more time. the scene with her single-handedly murdering the entire platoon of soviets while venom just kinda watched like, 'well, that's what you get' was pretty hilarious too. as i've mentioned before, the part that falters for me is quiet saying she has forsaken her vengeance but doesn't allow for the wolbachia to neutralize the strain? i like part with her speaking english, but it doesn't feel like a big deal when we know there's a 'cure.'
speaking of character motivations that don't work for me: miller is a stupid asshole and i hate him. your crutch is a literal crutch: get an arm and a leg you moron. if he's really so hellbent on revenge, he seems to be the kind of guy who would want it personally on the battlefield. a fake-ass big boss can do the hard work, but miller would rather brood and be a pissy little baby the entire game. i touched on this earlier, and screamingmeat's explained his thoughts on him too, but i still don't think ocelot works as a version of him knowing what we do of mgs3 cocky brat ocelot and 00-10s 'actual insane person' ocelot. he comes across as the voice of reason way too often for what we know of him in the past and the future. he's creative with torture but that's about it.
as for the big twist - i am pretty okay with it. i don't think we needed an explanation for why big boss survives the outer heaven uprising, but i do like venom snake as a character. i also don't feel like the game was unfinished. to be really honest, it felt like the game's major story is about what happens with cipher and skull face, while 'chapter 2' is merely an epilogue following the major players involved. in a sense, it feels finished and then some. but i also don't think the eli/psycho mantis stuff actually matters so maybe that's why people felt like the game is incomplete. i just don't know where the story could have possibly gone, as all the loose ends seemed pretty tied up.
Berserker976
Member
Wow... SO much of this post I disagree with.
First of all, I can't really fathom someone thinking that the voice acting and dialogue in this game is miles ahead of previous entries, especially when you bring up Cam Clarke, whose Liquid Snake remains one of the best and most iconic performances in the series, and video games in general.
Also, Miller was far and away my favorite character in MGSV. In fact, he was kind of the only character in the game, or at least the only one who acted somewhat human. I mean yeah, he's bitter and angry throughout the entire game, but that makes sense. The weirder thing is how little everyone else cares. He stands out because he actually has a personality and passion.
You've really got to expand on how Venom was in any way a good character. I mean, for all intents and purposes he's a silent protagonist, which has to be intentional considering the meta twist at the end. He's an empty vessel, except for the few times where he inexplicably acts on his own. He's constantly torn between being a blank avatar and being a real character, and the result is he fails at being either, and we're left with some weird, in-between mush of a thing.
And I'm sorry, but the game is glaringly incomplete. There are multiple plot threads that are just dropped, Chapter 2 is all over the damn place, and the end of the game comes literally out of nowhere, with no prompting.
I mean, you may not care about Eli, but he's a genetic clone of Big Boss who has the third English strain, an army of children, a god damn Metal Gear, and a magical child with the powers of a demi-god. That subplot is left completely unresolved, and it's a way more dire situation than anything with Skull Face ever was!
Anihawk, your views and mine appear to be similar (positive about the game and story, believing it's a complete product, liking Venom's character, etc), but I'd like to offer some thoughts where we may differ, or where I might be able to clarify something:
With regards to Quiet, correct me if I'm wrong, but wolbachia doesn't cure someone once copulation has begun. It must be applied before the parasites have activated. So here we have a situation where Quiet waffled up until the last moment regarding whether she loves Venom or still wants revenge. She declined the treatment for that reason. That logic is consistent enough... What I take issue with is why the Diamond Dogs didn't force treatment on her. They seemed to think she was infected. I know she can be difficult to subdue, but they did manage to tie her to a chair in the interrogation scene, and knock her out in the teeth-stabbing scene. Or perhaps it was a matter of needing more time to make wolbachia suitable for the English-language strain?
Either way... I can buy Quiet's motivation, contrived though it may be.
Where I struggle with her is her past an assassin. She says "vengeance drove me to them," and I'm nearly positive this refers to why she joined XOF. While she does want revenge against Snake for the incident at the hospital (a bit hypocritical, since she started it), the line "vengeance drove me to them" can't be referring to that incident since she was already with them when it happened. So I just want to know what her backstory is before XOF... What happened in her past that led her to become an assassin. I hope it's something that would help me sympathize with her... questionable career. Then again, maybe the whole idea is she's a horrible monster who learns how to feel love when her enemy not only spares her, but forgives her and trusts her, as well. The "Bosses" have always had an intuitive knack for empathizing with monsters.
Quiet is an interesting character, for sure.
Now regarding Kaz... He was actually one of my favorite characters in the game. You mentioned his lack of limbs. He actually explains his choice to not use bionic limbs: The phantom pain helps him to remember the comrades he lost. Now that's a bit contrived, for sure, but it's a reason all the same. It's not what I like about Kaz, though... I just thought I'd mention it.
What I like about Kaz is his range as a character. He's consistently angry, yes... and he remains unforgiving to the end... but within that anger he runs the gamut of emotion. He's a romantic type with moments of starry-eyed wonder when Venom says something that touches his heart. At other times he's at odds with Venom, frustrated with his CO's growing softness toward their enemies, yelling in his face. Kaz seems most tortured by the lack of fulfillment from his revenge on Skull Face. There's a restlessness to him that begins to manifest itself as paranoia, leading to witch hunts (which aren't exactly unfounded, it turns out). And then there's a bit of introspection when he says after M43 that he feels guilty for the pandemic, since his witch-hunts caused his men to mistrust each other, which caused infighting among the rescue teams and infected. In the end, Kaz finds no peace, no matter how hard he tries. He continues his downward spiral of revenge, never able to forgive, only able to hold a grudge. Learning that BB used him in the post-credits exchange is the straw that breaks the camel's back, and we know where his revenge will lead him next... Dead, at the hands of either Ocelot or Liquid.
He does have a good core, one concerned about child soldiers, nuclear disarmament, etc. He also seems to have the deepest concern for his family on Mother Base (although I don't want to minimize Venom's concern -- I think the cremation/ashes scene speaks for itself, but also smaller scenes like the "low morale" scene you get when your GMP is in the negative). His heart's in the right place, but it's shrouded in hate. I think that's what makes his character a bit tragic, but it's also why I find him interesting.
see i hear cam clarke as liquid snake and i hear scene-chewing tim curry. that isn't really a bad thing. i think it fits the tone of the first metal gear solid extremely well, which i can't take too seriously. troy baker's ocelot also sounds like a normal person (which doesn't really fit) but he sounds like the ocean's dub of vegeta in mgs. i mean no one actually talks that way. same goes for hayter's snake. it's a dude doing a tough guy voice instead of a dude having a tough guy voice. kiefer sutherland can pull it off because it's naturally him. he's the person david hayter is trying to sound like.
for essentially the entire game, miller is making reckless emotion-based decisions. they both have strong points about quiet's initial capture, but afterwards, miller is distrustful to a huge fault, and unable to see anything she does in any positive light. i once more have to reiterate that for a guy with so much passion and rage that he doesn't seem to care about getting in on the battlefield, maybe even fighting alongside snake. he's just this negative ball of energy at mother base that ocelot has to keep under control and venom snake has to pacify now and again.
i think i liked that he was a fairly silent guy who also wasn't a brooding asshole or an idiot. he generally goes with the flow and seems calm under pressure. i feel like this is punctuated by having a non-player character in quiet who is much the same way, so it doesn't feel like venom snake is the odd one out by rarely making his concerns known verbally. i think it's enough he's there for interrogation scenes, experiences guilt, tries to take care of the kids (which is actually a pretty bad idea but his heart seems in the right place), and feels responsible for his men. i feel like the one part that works against this is his grin at knowing he can be big boss. his character until then probably would have been horrified. although he does eventually smash the mirror, meaning perhaps he came around.
this comes purely from me thinking that their addition to the story is dumb and worthless to begin with. there's also no investment on the part of diamond dogs with this group other than making the rescue in the first place.
the main story stuff is related to skull face. a good side deal is about parasites in general and how quiet relates to them. the final part is venom snake's role in the overall mg story. there's the stuff with eli, and maybe we'll get the final mission there somehow, but all of it feels like a dlc pack considering how very little it matters in the long run.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
yeah for me eli felt unnecessary, forced through a bunch of silly coincidences or even unbelievable oversights (like the disposable of the 3rd strain lol), and basically imba and op ;p
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
it's sort of the same issue about not forcing the wolbachia on quiet. the phantom pain will be there whether or not he has prosthetic limbs. that's why it's a phantom pain. it's a huge aspect of kaz that makes him seem pretty dumb.
i think the one positive thing about his growing paranoia is that it correctly leads to framing huey as the enormous traitor that he is, when at first it was a gut feeling.
i noticed that too. i think the moment where it was clear he was kind of out of his element was taking on the former child soldiers like a military base was a good place to raise them, thinking it was the only way to have them continue their lives. that part was where it's clear he is pretty devoted to the idea of the diamond dogs base being its own nation of sorts (he even calls it outer heaven, i believe).
Berserker976
Member
Honestly, I thought Kiefer did a downright awful job in MGSV. And that's pretty impressive considering he has so few lines. I just don't buy him at all, I guess. Like, yeah, he has less emotion than the voice actors in the previous games, but that doesn't make him more realistic in my eyes, just more bland. Also, as far as quality goes, even when he does have lines he manages to frequently mangle intonation. (though to be fair to Kiefer that one is probably on Kriss Zimmerman)
You say he's distrustful to a huge fault, but let's actually look at the people he's most distrustful of: Quiet, who it turns out worked for Cipher and could have killed everyone on base at virtually any time, and Huey, who it turns out he was 100% right about. And as for getting out on the battlefield, I don't know why you'd assume he'd do that. Even in PW he was the guy running everything, if he went out on missions with Venom Diamond Dogs would absolutely fall apart. Part of the reason he's always stressed is that he's the one running shit
I'm amazed you could get such a rich character out of someone who has one facial expression and doesn't really talk. Also, I go in depth about the punching the mirror scene in a few earlier posts, but the gist is: I think it's really unlikely he punched it out of anger
But if you cut out all the side stuff all you're left with is a comically straightforward, flat story about finding out what Skull Face is up to and then stopping him, with no twists, or revelations, or anything interesting.
The story beats, minus side plots are basically:
-Find Miller, establish base
-Learn about Sahelanthropus
-Learn about parasites
-Hear Skull Face tell you his plan
-Watch as his plan utterly falls apart and then mutilate/kill him
I get why Venom's limited verbal expression puts off a lot of people, but we need to remind ourselves that a large amount of previous MGS dialogue was completely unnecessary. I cant even remember how many times the protagonists had to repeat everything in question. "Nanomachines?" "Metal Gear?" "Big Boss?" "Liquid?" "C4?"
Sometimes its better not to speak at all really.
Sometimes its better not to speak at all really.
Nice to see another Venom fan.Anihawk said:
RE: Venom's smirk and nod when he's told he's one-half of the legend:
I think his ego needed to hear that. Otherwise, he would've collapsed under the weight of the lie he was living. So I don't think it undermines the rest of his character. It just makes him human. And I agree he had a change of heart after the time skip, but by that point it was too late. He had played along with BB's plan for years, but it's only when Solid Snake is at his doorstep in Outer Heaven that he smashes the mirror in rejection of his fate.
People say Venom is a silent protagonist. It's true he doesn't talk much, but I think he says a lot with what he doesn't say; he says a lot in his body language and facial expressions, in what he does and doesn't do. He constantly gives off a mood. He's definitely introverted compared to the real deal. He's a soft-spoken and passive personality who yields to his more assertive sub-commanders, at least at first.
While he goes along with Kaz's quest for revenge, and on some level wants revenge himself, after Skull Face is dead he is haunted by the "ghosts of his past," seeing not only a vision of Skull Face, but Paz, as well (the second and third Paz cutscenes, and final Paz tape only occur in Ch. 2). Revenge didn't bring him peace... Only restlessness. Like Paz says (or should I say, Venom's heart): "You can kill Skull Face, murder Huey, slaughter Zero, burn the whole world down, but it won't bring me back. Me, or any of the dead." I like to think Venom's soul-searching informs his decision to spare Huey, a mercy he didn't afford Skull Face (but perhaps would've, had he already learned his lesson).
I also like to think that while Kaz compelled him to shoot Skull Face, Venom was a gentler sort from the start. He not only spared Quiet, but forgave her and trusted her, seeing something human in a monster. With the child soldiers, he tried to give them the only life he knew, which was well-meaning but ill-informed. And with the second pandemic, it's clear he's not oblivious to the suffering around him. He bottles up a lot of his feelings, perhaps unsure how to process what's going on around him. And for good reason... His mind (Big Boss) is in conflict with his heart (The Medic).
By the end, I wanted to give Venom a hug, as silly as it sounds. As the player we can see that he's been dealt a rough hand that he doesn't fully realize until it's too late. He has such faith in BB that he continues to follow even when he's been misled. The man he idolized, who preached a gospel of never using people as a means to an end, was now doing just that, going against the principles of The Boss. BB put the Medic in harm's way; he put the Diamond Dogs in harm's way; he put the hospital in harm's way; he went along with Zero's plan, simply so he could advance his own agenda. But it's like Venom can't swallow this bitter pill until the very end when his role as a meat shield is impossible to ignore.
The fact that his story is lost to the annals of history, despite the fact he undeniably shaped the world, preventing the downfall of Western civilization, for starters, just makes his tragedy all the more... well, epic.
Robot Pants
Member
Yea reading through the post you quoted, i disagreed with so much and agree so much with you.
Seems some people are still in denial about TPP, but theyll come to.
oooooowhop^^
Berserker976
Member
I get why Venom's limited verbal expression puts off a lot of people, but we need to remind ourselves that a large amount of previous MGS dialogue was completely unnecessary. I cant even remember how many times the protagonists had to repeat everything in question. "Nanomachines?" "Metal Gear?" "Big Boss?" "Liquid?" "C4?"
Sometimes its better not to speak at all really.
Dude, go back and really play the other games. All the one word questions make for good youtube video compilations, but they don't make up a healthy amount of the dialogue in MGS games.
MGSV dialogue isn't just MGS dialogue with the fluff taken out. It's frustratingly sparse.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
the more time passes, the more I like Chapter 1
and I sort of have begun to feel more and more... almost an empathy for Venom Snake as a character after how betrayed I felt initially after Chapter 2
sort of like Kaz to Ocelot: Big Boss and Kojima can go to hell. I've got Venom Snake's back.
and I sort of have begun to feel more and more... almost an empathy for Venom Snake as a character after how betrayed I felt initially after Chapter 2
sort of like Kaz to Ocelot: Big Boss and Kojima can go to hell. I've got Venom Snake's back.
I have to disagree with the TLDR. MGS4 was better.
The pacing and the twist bothered me the most. The entire game didn't "feel" like an MGS game to me whatsoever. No memorable characters, no "oh shit" moments, no insanely awesome boss fights, no real gangsta numba 1 triple OG Big Boss, and the 4th wall breaking bullshit twist doesn't fit into the lore at all.
I feel like Kojima bent us over and rammed a dildo up our asses.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Fair enough. I thought it was 100% Kojima, but I've learned over the last month that Metal Gear means very different things to very different folks.
Personally - using your analogy - I think Kojima is at his best when he does what he wants, like bending us over for a thorough dildo ramming (MGS2). He's at his worst when he's pandering. In MGS4, I felt like he was meekly trying to milk our balls, crying with a mouth full of our spam spear, whispering through his stuffed mouth "Oh, fan-san, I hope you rike...".
I felt MGS4 was beneath him.
That's just me though.
I think the only reason the one word questions are there are to break-up the massive amounts of exposition. There is an awful lot of it (and yes, I've really played the games). The dialogue in TPP is definitely a step up IMO, although most of the exposition is relegated to tapes, stuff in cutscenes are finally being left unsaid and I'm not really against that.
Right, this is why I think he was at his best with MGS1, 2, and 3. I loved MGS2. It was similar shit he pulled with this one, but we KNEW we weren't playing as Solid Snake during the Plant Chapter (TPP) after we actually played as Snake during the Tanker Chapter (GZ). Raiden started off as us, the player, but in the end he threw away the dog tags and became his own character. It's like the opposite here. I didn't like it one bit. Not to mention the entirety of TPP has absolutely no bearing on the lore. Like, if PW and TPP were never told, it wouldn't have mattered in the grand scheme of things.
looooool
oh it's not about emotion than a natural or genuine quality. like i can always tell that david hayter is a dude doing a voice. it's charming for the games he does it in because they're generally more cartoony all around. tpp's tone is notably darker and pulled back than every other bombastic game in the series. the boss needed to sound like a real person here. scenes like this wouldn't work otherwise. i try to imagine david hayter's 'i wish i was kiefer sutherland' voice saying 'you're all diamonds' and trying to take it seriously and each time alternate-reality me keeps complaining about how it's a dumb line without knowing it's the delivery.
i guess i didn't get the part where if he's such a big deal why he needed to personally head up a mission in afghanistan.
well i'm a fan of nuance i guess.
you don't need twists or revelations to have a good story. i just wanted a tighter story, and all the psycho mantis/eli/volgin stuff did was divert attention away from the main plot and general themes of the game. the real 'story' is more like: prologue (escape the hospital), main game ('chapter 1'), and the epilogue ('chapter 2'). chapter 2 is where everything is pretty much wrapped up, including episode 51 which seems like something that was cut for time or budgetary reasons and not because kojima forgot to write an ending. psycho mantis and eli feed into the whole vengeance theme that the game seems built on, but it's stronger with skull face, venom, and quiet. you don't learn anything from psycho mantis or eli, and they are little more than props in the story. skull face's vengeance has him prepared to destroy society, venom's vengeance has him learn that it solves nothing, and quiet's vengeance is the same way, although she doesn't have to kill her target first before she understands this. eli is like miller in that it leads down a path towards emptiness but we already have miller for that so why do we need eli?
as far as the actual story goes, if you take out eli and psycho mantis, there would need to be another reason to stop metal gear. there are other gameplay ideas here instead of fighting it out in the open after skull face leads you to it. they could have easily done something with the ai shit from peace walker instead where yeah, the pilot needs to be small, but if an ai became aware to a point where metal gear was out of control, then you could have had the same final section after a tense escape from a facility.
I dont think I implied that previous MGS games are all about useless dialogue. All i said is that quite a few times dialogue was completely unnecessary, as if Kojima tried really hard to make his characters express themselves.
Having said that, I also never implied that MGSV is the perfect balance concerning dialogue.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Why do you think these points are inherently bad?
You choose one of the worst most schmultzy scenes in the entire series to make your point...? Hell, I think it is better! XD
Dont know if this has been mentioned before, but nevertheless here goes.
What I do like about Kojima is how he constantly uses a lot of symbolism in his games.
Take for example the code sign for the helicopter.
In Ground Zeroes, the chopper's code sign is "Morpho". Morpho, for those who dont know is a species of butterfly. And according to butterfly folklore:
Source: http://scalar.usc.edu/works/chid490animalmourning/dragonfly-and-butterfly
Now after reading all this, the whole Paz side story in MGSV with the final scene of the butterfly that Venom catches (but isnt real) gets a very nice symbolic nature.
In MGSV, the chopper code sign changes to Pequod, which is of course the name of the Whaling Ship in Moby Dick, a novel that has been referenced extensively in MGSV.
What I do like about Kojima is how he constantly uses a lot of symbolism in his games.
Take for example the code sign for the helicopter.
In Ground Zeroes, the chopper's code sign is "Morpho". Morpho, for those who dont know is a species of butterfly. And according to butterfly folklore:
Source: http://scalar.usc.edu/works/chid490animalmourning/dragonfly-and-butterfly
Now after reading all this, the whole Paz side story in MGSV with the final scene of the butterfly that Venom catches (but isnt real) gets a very nice symbolic nature.
In MGSV, the chopper code sign changes to Pequod, which is of course the name of the Whaling Ship in Moby Dick, a novel that has been referenced extensively in MGSV.
Berserker976
Member
Because he was super desperate. At that point in the story Diamond Dogs is a single platform, and Miller is doing everything without Big Boss around. Also, what happened to him in Afghanistan is exactly why he doesn't go out often.
Hey, cool, I'm a fan of nuance too! Unfortunately, MGSV mistakes bland stoicism for emotional depth, so we don't get very much real nuance. Instead, we end up with a whole bunch of dry characters sitting around staring at each other for no reason.
I absolutely agree with this. I just happen to think the base story in MGSV is very, very weak. I think George Weidman of Super Bunnyhop put it nicely: https://youtu.be/KO4Tusk_V2k?t=15m23s
to be fair this is a scene from a metal gear solid game.
It was the way it was told. We got so much backstory in the other games with a chance to finally see it all play out in TPP, but it didn't happen that way. Don't even get me started on the false advertising from the trailers. Now that was pure cockshit. Decent into madness? Ultimate story? Men become demons? Yeah, no. Half-assed at best. I thought MGS was immune to disappointing me, but now I see I was wrong. Literally reevaluating my entire life because of the massive disappointment this was for me.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
haha true, but this and "love blooming on the battlefield" have to be two of the worst offenders outside of MGS4.
I'd have preferred to see them take Snake's dialogue out of MGS3's ending and see if that changed anyth--- oh.
Nemesis_
Member
This sounds so over the top but I've spoken to other long time fans of the series who feel the same way.
I admit after finishing the game I kind of went into a bit of a gaming lull for a week or so. Thankfully I'm out of it now, but yeah, this ending was bizarrely affecting.
It's because of the amount of time I put into feeling excited for this damn game. I'm such a huge fan that this seemed the ultimate MGS game. I neglected my girlfriend at the time over a lot of the hype, which lead to a horrible break up and the worst mental trauma I've ever experienced, neglected school (as in I didn't even bother signing up for classes half the time), and generally shut myself out from the world because I deemed it more important to stay in and soak up every bullshit new little piece of info released from MGS. Looking back, I cannot believe I did this. It's something I'd only ever do for an MGS game, too. No other series pulled me in like MGS. Not even close. And to be disappointed like this? Not even anger, but sheer soul crushing disappointment. It shatters ones image. Sounds over the top for sure, but it's the best way I can describe it. Maybe in the long run it's a blessing in disguise. What a shit I was. But then again, this simply being the last MGS game and it actually delivering would've been nice, too.
what happened to him in afghanistan was a freak occurrence that probably would have left big boss mutilated as well. no one was prepared for the skull parasite units.
who was staring at each other? venom kind of takes a lot of stuff in, and quiet doesn't talk, but ocelot's always got a plan, miller's always ranting like a lunatic, skull face is monologuing, and huey's making up stories.
so this once more boils down to 'where's the twist kojima? where's the twist!?' which i don't really buy. if you look a the game as the story of venom snake stopping skull face, then the climax happens during the part of the game where you have to explode a huge nuke-launching robot (which seems like a big showstopping moment for me but i guess it doesn't beat tapping buttons or the game telling me what's on my hard drive).
Berserker976
Member
haha true, but this and "love blooming on the battlefield" have to be two of the worst offenders outside of MGS4.
I'd have preferred to see them take Snake's dialogue out of MGS3's ending and see if that changed anyth--- oh.
How about taking the dialogue out of scenes that didn't directly follow a major betrayal and life altering trauma? Like his banter with Ocelot, or Paramedic, or Sigint, or Major Zero, or EVA, or Granin, or Sokolov?
You are just super determined to willfully ignore this point, aren't you?
How about taking the dialogue out of scenes that didn't directly follow a major betrayal and life altering trauma? Like his banter with Ocelot, or Paramedic, or Sigint, or Major Zero, or EVA, or Granin, or Sokolov?
You are just super determined to willfully ignore this point, aren't you?
naked snake has always been fairly chatty though. this doesn't change in mgsv.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Really? Dude, I'd reevaluate the twist before I'd reevaluate my life!
MGS2 questioned the relationship between us and the game. It was critical of it. When I listened to the denouement in TPP I took it as a celebration, a positive acknowledgement of the player's part in the entire Big Boss myth, including that which had already happened.
How about taking the dialogue out of scenes that didn't directly follow a major betrayal and life altering trauma? Like his banter with Ocelot, or Paramedic, or Sigint, or Major Zero, or EVA, or Granin, or Sokolov?
You are just super determined to willfully ignore this point, aren't you?
You didn't make a point. You posted a video.
The above you're referring to would be completely out of character for Big Boss, but not Venom.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
the phantom pain is real
The cure is not perfect. She left the Mother Base after witnessing both the vocal cord parasite and the Wolbachia mutate into more dangerous things due to a radiation leak and realizing that she can't completely control her infection by just not speaking English.
Berserker976
Member
I was making a point with the video. The point was that MGSV is hilariously devoid of dialogue. The choice to make Venom a mute robs us of a shit load of character development.
This I will cop to. Real Big Boss' dialogue in the hospital mission and some of the truth tapes were the closest thing to good Metal Gear dialogue in the game. It's just a shame that only accounts for like .5% of TPP.
And lets Kojima cheat a lot with the plot because the protagonist is rendered a passive mute.
i think this is a solid point. probably the only thing that makes sense after what she had seen.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
You took what I meant by "things being left unsaid" in the most literal way possible, so you could not make your point with a video that took this literal interpretation to an illogical extreme, one that I wasn't suggesting in the first place. I would also remind you that I said it was a "step up", not perfect.
So I'm not really sure what point you're supposedly making, because it has little to do with what I actually said. I'm not your strawman. I AM MEAT.
I also fundamentally disagree that TPP is "hilariously devoid of dialogue".
'metal gear' dialogue is present throughout the game. all that crazy wacky shit regarding parasites could have been talk about genes in mgs1 or memes in mgs2.
i think the humor of the game was missing the most. the hamburgers tapes were really it, aside from infiltrating bases to only time will tell by asia the way god intended.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah. Can't argue with any of that.
Berserker976
Member
From the time you start the OKB Zero mission, to after you take down Sahelanthropus, Venom literally doesn't say a single word.
Then he says "Let's see Skull Face"
Then he's silent again all the way through the ending of Chapter 1.
That's over 30 minutes of cutscenes (plus a lot more than that of gameplay) focused on Venom where he doesn't say anything at all.
Eli, a character that is with you on base for a majority of the game has a grand total of about 4 lines.
This is abnormal.
eli's a little shit and i thought it was weird he didn't talk. like when you find him on the boat, i had assumed he would have launched into a three hour diatribe about his father or leadership or something. i guess it's something he picked up later.
venom snake is a man of few words. that's fine. there's no need for him to be super talkative. even in the tapes i recall that generally he's asking questions instead of formulating plans, like he's trying to figure things out.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
a man of few words and a fondness for simple things
which is why even after Mother Base and its FOB grow to probably about 3-4 square miles of oil platform and thousand soldiers, in cutscenes he' still rocking that base AM MRS-4 with iron sights ;p
sort of makes me want to replay the game in a sort of half-Subsistence way with just the base MRS-4 and the base M2000 hunting rifle
which is why even after Mother Base and its FOB grow to probably about 3-4 square miles of oil platform and thousand soldiers, in cutscenes he' still rocking that base AM MRS-4 with iron sights ;p
sort of makes me want to replay the game in a sort of half-Subsistence way with just the base MRS-4 and the base M2000 hunting rifle
Kojima has stated that Venom will not speak a lot and instead let the player be the jugje of what is presented in front of him, make up his own mind. Kojima tries to put the player in Venom's place, since -in reality- thats exactly what is revealed at the end.
It is abnormal for a MGS game I will agree on that because we had been used in protagonists talking a lot. So yeah from that standpoint, I do agree it is abnormal, but in the context of who Venom is supposed to be representing, it makes sense.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
So you pick two characters who don't say much. Cool. Want to add Quiet in there too...?
What about the large quantity of other dialogue spoken throughout the game by Ocelot, Kaz, Huey, Skull Face, Zero, Paz, Big Boss and Code Talker, both on the tapes and in cutscenes? You make the game sound like it's a silent movie...
For what... Metal Gear? Yeah, and...?
"Abnormal" (or "different", as I would put it) =/= inherently bad.
Berserker976
Member
So you pick two characters who don't say much. Cool. Want to add Quiet in there too...?
What about the large quantity of other dialogue spoken throughout the game by Ocelot, Kaz, Huey, Skull Face, Zero, Paz, Big Boss and Code Talker, both on the tapes and in cutscenes? You make the game sound like it's a silent movie...
For what... Metal Gear? Yeah, and...?
"Abnormal" (or "different", as I would put it) =/= inherently bad.
Zero is only in like, 3 tapes at the very end of the game, same with Big Boss, Paz is only in her tape chain and one of the Zero ones, and the vast majority of all the other dialogue is just tapes tapes tapes tapes. All completely optional.
Take those away and the game actually isn't too far off from a silent movie. And hey, you might as well because most of the tapes are just dry exposition dumps anyway.
Oh, and Venom is the protagonist, it's extremely significant that he's silent because we spend all of our time with him. Eli being almost entirely voiceless is also way out of character, even to the way he's portrayed in TPP itself.
The silence really stands out in this game, that's what I'm trying to get across. It's a very noticeable absence of words.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Well of course it is... when you go through arbitrarily discounting actual dialogue that doesn't fit with your point. You're not all that far away from saying: "When you take all the dialogue away, there is no dialogue". XD
For instance: tapes. I'm sorry, man, but they are part of the game. I've got mixed feelings about that too but they are a device Kojima chose to expand on points and it really doesn't matter one iota that they are optional. They pretty much fulfil exactly the same role as CODEC, minus the situational in-the-field stuff and interrupting cutscenes. They are there and they contain a huge amount of dialogue, monologues and narrative, for good or ill... just like CODECs did. You don't get to discount them, I'm afraid.
The fact that you lament tapes for being mostly "dry exposition dumps" when probably 75% of the dialogue in the entire series is exactly that but broken up by one word questions, speaks volumes (pun intended).