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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
So finished the game yesterday, listened to the tapes and even watched Ep. 51 on YT.
OK, on the presentation side the story IS pretty weak or unconventional respectively.
BUT, in concept it is a very bold way of storytelling with two exceptional twists. It is still the total mindfuck we are used from the series.
On first sight it looks like Kojima fucked up the whole canon in this one - on the other hand the lore just opens up more: it screams for a MGS 3 Prequel with The Boss (maybe Skullface) and a MGS4 successor
To get this out of the way first: Ep. 51 does nothing for the story. It does not save/repair it for those who think that it is completely broken. Ep. 51 basically explains why Salehantrapous does not appear in the later games.
The last tapes turn the MGS lore upside down - here are my theories:
1. Skullface's death. No one in the right mind introduces a villain just to let him be killed half way through. Kojima is not that stupid. He decided against making him typical a video-game villain (Bossfight) - instead Skullface becomes the driving force for all events to happen in the whole series and I do believe that Kojima wrote the story in a way that leaves room for interpretation considering references to Skullface in the other games:
You hear it from me first : Skullface is Vamp!!!! (sort of) Let me elaborate: In Ep. 31 Skullface explains that he is from Romania. At this point I thought "Well, this is too obvious". On one of the last tapes Miller/Ocelot explains that SF is from Hungary - and first I thought "ok, I was wrong" but then he goes on saying "from nothern Transylvania".
This is no coincidence. A mutated strain of SF's vocal chord parasites is a better explaination for Vamp's special abilities than nanomachines. Why doesn't Zero use nanomachines in the first place to overcome his sickness (Parasites >>>>nanomachines) ?
2. Where is Fake Big Boss later on? Let's assume the real BB is the one at the end of GotP. I think we can agree that Fake BB is not killed in the NES/MSX games. Considering all the fuck-ups in TPP, I come to the following solution: Fake Big Boss is Solidus. Solidus is the "third clone" of Big Boss.
OK, on the presentation side the story IS pretty weak or unconventional respectively.
BUT, in concept it is a very bold way of storytelling with two exceptional twists. It is still the total mindfuck we are used from the series.
On first sight it looks like Kojima fucked up the whole canon in this one - on the other hand the lore just opens up more: it screams for a MGS 3 Prequel with The Boss (maybe Skullface) and a MGS4 successor
To get this out of the way first: Ep. 51 does nothing for the story. It does not save/repair it for those who think that it is completely broken. Ep. 51 basically explains why Salehantrapous does not appear in the later games.
The last tapes turn the MGS lore upside down - here are my theories:
1. Skullface's death. No one in the right mind introduces a villain just to let him be killed half way through. Kojima is not that stupid. He decided against making him typical a video-game villain (Bossfight) - instead Skullface becomes the driving force for all events to happen in the whole series and I do believe that Kojima wrote the story in a way that leaves room for interpretation considering references to Skullface in the other games:
You hear it from me first : Skullface is Vamp!!!! (sort of) Let me elaborate: In Ep. 31 Skullface explains that he is from Romania. At this point I thought "Well, this is too obvious". On one of the last tapes Miller/Ocelot explains that SF is from Hungary - and first I thought "ok, I was wrong" but then he goes on saying "from nothern Transylvania".
This is no coincidence. A mutated strain of SF's vocal chord parasites is a better explaination for Vamp's special abilities than nanomachines. Why doesn't Zero use nanomachines in the first place to overcome his sickness (Parasites >>>>nanomachines) ?
2. Where is Fake Big Boss later on? Let's assume the real BB is the one at the end of GotP. I think we can agree that Fake BB is not killed in the NES/MSX games. Considering all the fuck-ups in TPP, I come to the following solution: Fake Big Boss is Solidus. Solidus is the "third clone" of Big Boss.
Stereogatari
Banned
I don't think so, but my question is thus...is there a way to unlock new Side Ops without going to the ACC.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Ahab is Big Boss in MG1. Ishmael is Big Boss in MG2. Atleast that's what timeline at the end of the game suggests.
Ahab is busy in Zanzibar Land while Ishmael is busy in Outer Heaven (or is it the other way around?)
I m at work so I dont have the time to properly dissect each of your questions, but in regards to why Zero didnt use nanomachines, its because obviously nanomachines were not available as a technology back then. It was only later that they emerged as a technology. Perhaps during the 80s/90s nanomachines were still in R&D phase, not ready to be used in humans.
Nope, only an achievement.
troll post?
I did the same thing, and it made me interpret the photograph scene in Mission 51 in a completely different way
KyanMehwulfe
Member
few random thoughts going into i guess the third week post-ending and replaying the game a lot
- i really really like the soundtrack ... it's not particularly varied but it has a sort of dark synth to it (e.g. Metal Archaea or whatever) that you can feel in a lot of the tracks. i'm sort of addicted to it at work (and, interestingly enough, it reminds me a bit of Vampire TM Bloodlines OST... I've had the two on rotation)
- game really need a cave... i watched First Blood (Rambo 1) last night lol... it made me really really miss MGS3 and that super dark cave... MGS V is never dark
- thinking about MGS3 made me sad that V doesn't have a single sort of big plant or base to infiltrate... like, even a 30 minute interior section in OKB or the oil refinery... we get 1 set of stairs first time I saw that, I was thinking fuck yeah, interior section! not so much lol
- boss fights in MGS are a double edged sword for me cuz i hate half of them (especially II and most of IV) and find them repetitive, monontonous, and usually dread them (biggest reason that stops me from replaying chapter 2 in MGS IV) but i really miss the Cobra Unit ;p the Skulls were cool in a sub boss way and actually I love the M29 fight but half of what makes MGS bosses cool are the characters... the theme, art, story.... the MGS3 for me have the GOAT bosses of any game :O
actually I feel like that "I should..." cat . gif ;p I should play MGS3 lol then replay MGS V again with the new Naked Snake dlc camo haha
- i really really like the soundtrack ... it's not particularly varied but it has a sort of dark synth to it (e.g. Metal Archaea or whatever) that you can feel in a lot of the tracks. i'm sort of addicted to it at work (and, interestingly enough, it reminds me a bit of Vampire TM Bloodlines OST... I've had the two on rotation)
- game really need a cave... i watched First Blood (Rambo 1) last night lol... it made me really really miss MGS3 and that super dark cave... MGS V is never dark
- thinking about MGS3 made me sad that V doesn't have a single sort of big plant or base to infiltrate... like, even a 30 minute interior section in OKB or the oil refinery... we get 1 set of stairs
first time I saw that, I was thinking fuck yeah, interior section! not so much lol- boss fights in MGS are a double edged sword for me cuz i hate half of them (especially II and most of IV) and find them repetitive, monontonous, and usually dread them (biggest reason that stops me from replaying chapter 2 in MGS IV) but i really miss the Cobra Unit ;p the Skulls were cool in a sub boss way and actually I love the M29 fight but half of what makes MGS bosses cool are the characters... the theme, art, story.... the MGS3 for me have the GOAT bosses of any game :O
actually I feel like that "I should..." cat . gif ;p I should play MGS3 lol then replay MGS V again with the new Naked Snake dlc camo haha
I'm not 100% sure, but Metal Gear 1 takes place in Outer Heaven (Wiki).
So this means Ahab is killed in 1995 (MG2).
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Then I am mistaken. Ahab indeed dies first, Big Boss is defeated later and goes into coma (again), and is woken up in MGS4.
Edit: Fun wiki time: http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Venom_Snake
I kind of want this to happen, if only because it'd mean his abilities were first granted by parasites and augmented with nanomachines; as well as being supplemented with hypnosis (the shadow stab). Include ghosts, telepathy, hallucinations, revenge magic and AI; and he'd become a perfect composite of Kojima hackery.
I named Venom Joakim Mogren and it unlocked chapter 4
Wow great! I will start a 100hours long second run tonight and I will use the same name
There are some great pieces, but most are criminally underused. Sins of the Father, A Phantom Pain, Behind the Drapery, Nitrogen, How bout them zombies, ey?, Dormant Stream...all of them could have been used non-diegetically to great effect. And I never really felt that most of the ingame music lived up to the heights of Ground Zeroes - nearly every cue used in the Paz extraction sequence was incredibly atmospheric, for example; and the MGS1 remixes in Deja Vu meshed surprisingly well with MGSV's sound design.
immortal-joe
Member
Just the one that gets discussed the most (not my shot):
This is the "major" one as it shows how Venom is the one who dies in MG1, while the original Big Boss / Naked Snake gets taken out in MG2 and put into a coma.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
yeah even the pieces... almost none of them stand out as just single independently special tracks. or incredibly memorable of, say, a moment... probably for me just the one from the chapter 1 ending at mother base of mission 43. definitely not as many as most MGS games that have same amazing epic or beautiful tracks that stand by themselves or basically represent single moments. most of the tracks, I have to stop and try to even remember where in the game it was because it is precisely so thematic that a lot of them blur together.
it's more like... great in the way that an album is supposed to be an experience... from start to finish, a real journey through a single 2 hour experience of sounds that are connected in theme and mood.
i find myself almost never skipping or selecting any single tracks... i basically just only listen to it from start to finish as one sort of album experience, and in that way I'm really beginning to appreciate it.
it's more like... great in the way that an album is supposed to be an experience... from start to finish, a real journey through a single 2 hour experience of sounds that are connected in theme and mood.
i find myself almost never skipping or selecting any single tracks... i basically just only listen to it from start to finish as one sort of album experience, and in that way I'm really beginning to appreciate it.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Yeah, at that point, it was scrolling too fast and I was too far behind so I was missing stuff. Thanks! That illuminates things.
Big Boss establishes power in Zanzibar via a junta so I sort of doubt it's the same bottom up approach he and Fake Snake took in Outer Heaven.
From the wiki
Ok, this makes sense. So basically Kojima used MGSV to fix the plot holes in MG 1+2 or
the other way around: he used the plot holes to write the story fpr MGSV.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
video of just that ok or you need pics?
//edit// nm seems it's all good haha
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Any other timeline shots you have would be cool. That one above is the most important, of course, but would love to read the whole thing at my leisure.
The Silver
Member
there was no plot hole, Big Boss doesn't die at the end of MG1, he literally tells you at the end that he isn't dead and he wants revenge and what not.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
i recorded basically everything if you want to pause and read
this is the pre-credits pre-1984 history one
and the post-credits post-1984 one you probably more interested in
Hmm...a pretty big gap between 1995 and 1996.
Can someone explain Solidus' backstory?
He is the odd one considering how the plot unfolds.
Solidus' entire existence was fabricated - hinted at by the only time we see him alive and in person being within a VR simulation. The corpse in MGS4 was just a stand-in, coming off a long series of cut-outs and body doubles that maintained the illusion of a president who never actually existed.
Why else do you think he's barely mentioned in the rest of the series?
Ok, sorry now I totally lost it. Have you played MG1? The timeline says Venom is killed in 1995(MG1). Who is the last boss in MG1 then?
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Venom posing as Big Boss.
I 100% agree with him, as do many others ITT (and across the board).
Edit: Lol except the Vamp bit. That is ridiculous. And the BB surviving MG1/2. I only agree with the start of his post.
I got you but how do you explain the post above?:
This doesn't make any sense.
Big boss is sending out Solid to stop Venom.
Solid kills Venom.
BB wants revenge
???? My head is exploding. Please, help......
The Saga of Big Boss
+Let's Russia get mininuked, has to go back in to prove he's not a screw up. Fights a ghost, a guy with bees, and barely beats a middle aged woman in unarmed combat.
+Beats up non-robot ninja Gray Fox.
+Builds a bunch of sterile platforms in the ocean, and kidnaps people to work for him. Beats up a teenager in her underwear.
+Rescues two children.
+Lets those two children get blown up.
+Everything he's ever worked for gets destroyed in about five minutes by a guy no one's ever heard of.
+Fucks off for 20 years.
+Gets nearly killed by Solid Snake, someone better than him in basically every way.
+Kills a 100 year old vegetable in a wheelchair.
+Dies.
+Let's Russia get mininuked, has to go back in to prove he's not a screw up. Fights a ghost, a guy with bees, and barely beats a middle aged woman in unarmed combat.
+Beats up non-robot ninja Gray Fox.
+Builds a bunch of sterile platforms in the ocean, and kidnaps people to work for him. Beats up a teenager in her underwear.
+Rescues two children.
+Lets those two children get blown up.
+Everything he's ever worked for gets destroyed in about five minutes by a guy no one's ever heard of.
+Fucks off for 20 years.
+Gets nearly killed by Solid Snake, someone better than him in basically every way.
+Kills a 100 year old vegetable in a wheelchair.
+Dies.
The Silver
Member
Yes i have.
Venom did not exist when MG1 was released, in the context of that game all the way up until MGS PW, it was understood that Big Boss did not die in MG1 as he tells you he's alive at the end and MG2 says he became a cyborg from his injuries at Outer Heaven. There wasn't a plot hole.
MGSV retroactively changed it so now it's Venom who was the Big Boss at Outer Heaven who really does die and the BB at the end who says he's still alive would have to be the real one now.
For some reason MGSV is tricking everyone into thinking there was a plot hole that was never there.
Skull Face being Vamp is stupid beyond belief. He can be from Hungary and from Transylvania, borders in Europe changed through history and Transylvania belonged to different countries over early 20th century. But that's beside the point because Jesus, with all Kojima bs that would still trump a lot of it.
Concerning "I think we can agree that Fake BB is not killed in the NES/MSX games.", the game itself says Venom was killed in Metal Gear, period.
> Solid (like all Enfant Terribles) is a thorn in Big Boss's side. BB sends Solid to die at the hands of Venom Snake
> Solid is so capable he overcomes Venom's security (Venom starts messaging Solid giving him bad advice)
> Big Boss reveals to Venom that he sent Solid Snake to get him, as a ruse (Intrude tape).
> Venom suddenly realises the fundamental betrayal of spending the last 10 years as someone's body double/secret right hand man, for it to finally culminate in his death
> Punches mirror in rage, walks out to meet his fate, Big Boss solidified as villain
> Solid Snake kills Venom and destroys Outer Heaven - which Big Boss obviously wants revenge for. At least for the destruction of Outer Heaven and his army, if not killing his body double, too
There are loads of variations on the idea, though.
Unlucky - you can pause them like a cutscene and read to your heart's content.
Lmao, skimmed the latter half of his post - yeah in no way is Skull Face being vamp right. That is so trolley.
I did not read that post closely enough! I just loved the sentiment in the first few lines.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
You monster.
Don't forget being beaten by a 100 year old sniper, and defeats him by waiting for old age to kill him.
He probably banged EVA for those 20 years, and hid behind the walls of OKB Zero.
Let the legend come back to life
What's the Gray Fox bit about? I don't remember this
It hasn't specifically been contradicted yet, so ninja baby Grey Fox will be canon forever, unfortunately.
I like how Eva fucking over (lol) Big Boss at the end of MGS3 doesn't matter at all since all of them just hook back up immediately afterwards, and she still fucked up the retrieval mission.
Portable Ops breh.
Enfant Terribles project really got away from everybody didn't it? How horrible mismanaged was this thing, like they had no actually plan for what to do if this shit was successful. Shouldn't they have trained these kids in like a secret bunker or some shit to be loyal soldiers, not just kinda lose track of em'?
Portable Ops if I remember correctly.
I think you're talking about something I am 100% not aware of.
I don't remember Big Boss beating up any ninjas. Any that could be Gray Fox. Or any that were babies. (I didn't finish Peace Walker but I watched the important last cutscenes, that's the only bit I'm missing. Or is it portable ops?)
Shit.
Bizarre.
The Silver
Member
Hey, she cared for Solidus so much she dove into a fire and killed herself, she's ok in my book.
That whole thing is still weird.
MGS4 is a goddamn mess, she really didn't need to be in that game and honestly neither did Big Boss.
This is a big crux for me.
Every time I feel a little miffed about a storytelling element in MGSV, I think of MGS4, which immediately casts MGSV into a golden light, warts and all.
MGS4 is an utter joke for the most part.
Death Metalist
Member
Nah, Big Mama was awesome. Seeing Snake meeting and reconnecting with his surrogate mother, the reveals within the cutscene and then ending in a spectacular chase IF you played it with the cinematic camera. Also, you could hug her if you hold triangle which also works as a small cover. Even Big Boss was awesome, without him the game wouldn't have ended as memorably as it did "This is good, isn't it?"
It would have ended with either Snake killing himself which is the predictable route since all the trailers and also throughout the course of the game you just feel like YUP HE'S GONNA DIE IN THE END. The other ending would be him and Otacon getting executed which is pretty fucking stupid and not in a good way.
She thought it was BB's corpse(Well to fool the A.I patroits, for the greater good and all that shit).
Edit: I love MGS4, it's my favorite one but I know it has very loud haters as well. I'm in the boat that adores the first 5 games though. All of them are fantastic and each has their ups as well as downs.
If you pared down MGS4 to the characters who needed to be in it, you'd be left with the smallest cast in the series.
Though it's interesting how MGSV's similar problems with fanservice cameos almost seem worse at times - despite having a significantly less bloated cast and a very different method of narrative delivery compared to 4, the pointlessness of those returning characters' roles is even more obvious without the distracting excess of 4's orgy of cameos and returning characters.
The Silver
Member
No, Big Boss says she and Ocelot put him back together using parts from Solidus and Liquid, she knew.
Thx Som, I can finally live with that explanation.
Regarding my Skullface theory: Why in hell would Kojima choose the one small region from the "dark"-part of Europe, which is only known because of one thing in literature/culture??? I'm not saying that Skullface lives on in humanoid form as Vamp, I've said: "sort of".
The Boss' persona is transferred into an AI
Big Boss is cloned
Why wouldn't a similar concept work for Skullface. He only lives physically in MGSV because of the parasites. I think SF is a symbiotic lifeform - he is not a human being by definition.
The MGS saga in the end becomes a war between the The Boss Meme and the Skullface Meme.
Skullface reminds me of John Doe (Seven) - he dies but his "meme" lives on.
His theatrical behaviour also reminded me a lot of Vamp.
You will eat a very fat crow, when Konami releases MGS6 with Raiden vs. Skullface 2.0
They will explain how the parasites used what has remained of SF in MGSV and sythesized Vamp in a first attempt to recreate Skullface.
Death Metalist
Member
Yeah, I edited my post before you replied because I forgot to include that detail. In any case there are many reasons why she jumped into the fire other than to fool the patriots. For one, Just because Solidus isn't Big Boss, doesn't mean that he means nothing to her. We don't really know whether she was or wasn't Solidus's surrogate mother. Heck, we don't know shit about their relationship.
I'd like to take it though as just part of the plan to fool the patriots that she was willing to kill herself for BB and nothing more but there is room for interpretation on why she jumped in the fire.