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[Inferno313]

This post makes me feel like I've walked into a Looney Tunes episode.

He's right though, ask any writer worth their salt what the most important aspect of a piece of fiction is and none will tell you the plot.

Character, pacing, theme, structure, etc > plot.

 

[Kazuhira]

Reddit users are really putting a lot of effort into this game,they are checking every inch of it.
The NeverBeGameOver thread is really interesting,even if some theories are too far-fetched.

 

[Reebot]

I genuinely think that raises an interesting question regarding the player's relationship to their avatar's identity (maybe not so much Free Will, though, but I see the poster's point). Mainly: "Does it matter?" and "Why?"

I'll meet you halfway; its got potential to raise some interesting questions. Obviously, for me, it failed completely, but I'd entertain an argument to the opposite.

But once "free will" enters the equation we've gone completely off the rails.

 

[Symphonia]

Wait, the second bomb was in Paz's vaginal cavity? I assumed it was in her stomach as well, hence why she kept clutching her stomach while 'she' was in the medical bay.

Dat's fucked up, Hideo.

 

[Inferno313]

Reddit users are really putting a lot of effort into this game,they are checking every inch of it.
The NeverBeGameOver thread is really interesting,even if some theories are too far-fetched.

I enjoy reading it but they've even gone a little too nutso for me. You want to speculate that a Chapter 3 is coming as DLC? Sure, that's one thing.

More and more of them think that MGSV is literally a "Phantom game" made by a B-team using assets from the real MGS5, which Kojima has been working on in secret.

And that's fucking crazytown.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I'll meet you halfway; its got potential to raise some interesting questions. Obviously, for me, it failed completely, but I'd entertain an argument to the opposite.

But once "free will" enters the equation we've gone completely off the rails.

Fair enough.

I enjoy reading it but they've even gone a little too nutso for me. You want to speculate that a Chapter 3 is coming as DLC? Sure, that's one thing.

More and more of them think that MGSV is literally a "Phantom game" made by a B-team using assets from the real MGS5, which Kojima has been working on in secret.

And that's fucking crazytown.

Uh... Okay?

 

[Shadow Ranger]

I enjoy reading it but they've even gone a little too nutso for me. You want to speculate that a Chapter 3 is coming as DLC? Sure, that's one thing.

More and more of them think that MGSV is literally a "Phantom game" made by a B-team using assets from the real MGS5, which Kojima has been working on in secret.

And that's fucking crazytown.

And him being fired is a ruse, and he'll be back when the real MGSV is revealed?

Yeah, I'd honestly take that after playing this...

 

[Johndoey]

I don't like MGS2, but that game was enigmatic and bizzare enough that it could reasonably warrant years of sporadic discussion. I don't see that with MGSV I honestly think the themes and individual story beats are fairly shallow and it lacks that air of mystery MGS2 pulled off. Discussion of this game is gonna taper off relatively quickly except for the odd clarification, or assholes like me complaining about canon for a 26 year old video game.

 

[Srey Plaughtered]

I enjoy reading it but they've even gone a little too nutso for me. You want to speculate that a Chapter 3 is coming as DLC? Sure, that's one thing.

More and more of them think that MGSV is literally a "Phantom game" made by a B-team using assets from the real MGS5, which Kojima has been working on in secret.

And that's fucking crazytown.

Metal Gear Solid 5: Really Kept you Fiddling Huh?

 

[Roni]

Metal Gear Solid 5: Really Kept you Fiddling Huh?

Kept you interpretating, huh?

 

[Kazuhira]

I enjoy reading it but they've even gone a little too nutso for me. You want to speculate that a Chapter 3 is coming as DLC? Sure, that's one thing.

More and more of them think that MGSV is literally a "Phantom game" made by a B-team using assets from the real MGS5, which Kojima has been working on in secret.

And that's fucking crazytown.

The 'moral therapy' theory is the best,great food for thought imo

 

[Moon_frogger]

Well, the in-game justification is that the dude's a triple agent. Do spies usually act like themselves and reveal their genuine internal thought processes? Who knows. Not me.

Personally, I don't think Ocelot has a personality. He's a... Cipher.

It's not justification that I'm looking for though, it's actual confirmation and not just....tales from some forum guys ass. The boss was a double agent as well, does that mean she faked her personality for the duration of metal gear solid 3? it was ocelots allegiances that were unknown, not his identity. he wasn't pretending to be a different person, he was pretending to work for someone. you're getting the two conflated here. It's baseless speculation that he didn't actually enjoy torture. it's even more wild and baseless speculation that he for some reason completely altered his mannerisms and personality.

 

[Clear]

It's weird holding two conversations across as many threads XD

I kind of think it does have an effect, at least on some people. Think of it in terms of one of the major complaints: people are really pissed they didn't get to actually play as Big Boss or see his downfall. People have retroactively reevaluated the game based on the twist. I know I feel odd whenever the MB staff salute me and say "Boss".

I genuinely think that raises an interesting question regarding the player's relationship to their avatar's identity (maybe not so much Free Will, though, but I see the poster's point). Mainly: "Does it matter?" and "Why?"

Well, if you play long enough you'll have staff members saying "I don't care who you are" to Venom on Mother base, making it pretty much canonical that his phantom identity is at least suspected by/rumoured about among his men. This is doubled down on by the way the "Big Boss is Watching You" posters disappear late on also.

The free will aspect I mentioned was directly referring to Venom's sense self-identity and self-determination within the story/saga. The whole point of Big Boss's "Man who sold the world" tape is to free Venom from the bonds of not just the delusion that he is who he thinks he is, but from Big Boss's own past and memories.

Does/did Venom go bad because of BB's implanted memories/identity, the reveal of what was done to him, or just as a consequence of the position he holds as ruler of a rogue military state?

Its pretty provocative and interesting stuff to consider. Is the trajectory of both BB and his Phantom as characters within the overall saga a result of choice or circumstance? Remember BB may go along with the Phantom plan, but its Zero driving it all with his play backed by Ocelot and later by Miller. BB wakes some time sooner than Venom, but events are well under way and have been in motion for years at that point. Ahab has already been "programmed" to believe he is BB, so reversing the situation isnt that simple.

I dunno if it's the Boss he's proving himself against as much as Big Boss. Ocelot has some serious Bro/Foe Yay that even he can't hide. He practically soils his pants when he tells Solidus he looks like BB (I know it wasn't planned...).

This I think goes to the mono-maniacal aspect of Ocelot's adoration of the boss, he wants to be her so badly he actually has taken on the love she had for BB as part of the process.

 

[GodzillaDB]

No one seemed to point out that the Real Big Boss has white shrapnel while Venom has the actual black shrapnel... actually alot of things about the promotional art is terribly confusing even hindsight as it's weird even as a bate/switch. Also Decoy Octopus not being involved in MGSV feels like a huge missed opportunity.

Even though I liked the ending, it would have been cool if Venom turned out to be Decoy Octopus.

I don't believe Big Boss ever had shrapnel at any point during development. Kojima basically let the cat outta the bag with the GDC 2013 trailer showing him on the operating table without any of that stuff in his skull and Miller acknowledging a "third party" laying in the same room. I believe the confusion over the seemingly "white" shards comes from the discoloring effect of x-rays as seen in the promotional material of Venom Snake. I definitely agree it was a missed opportunity to re-imagine the origin story of Decoy Octopus with this entry, especially since Ocelot, Liquid and Psycho Mantis were already bundled up into the main narration. It would've been an interesting cop-out in my perspective with insight into a lesser known character that hardly received much attention in the original Metal Gear Solid other than being an excuse for the DARPA Chief twist despite treading similar territory.

Was that image made before the game was released ?

Yes, I believe that collage had been floating around the online community sometime after E3 2013. Practically most users seem to have accepted the doppelganger twist once Kojima showed too much with the GDC trailer that same year. In fact, a majority of people were more torn over the identity of the decoy than the actual twist itself with theories ranging from Punished/Venom Snake being the Medic himself, Decoy Octopus, Gray Fox, an unknown fourth clone, etc.

i named my dude snake and all that happened was it made ocelot look like a god damned moron when he gave big boss his passport.

Since Venom Snake was being fooled into believing he was the actual Big Boss, I felt it didn't make any sense other than to input legitimate information. I typed in "John" and ball-parked the birthday with the MSX2 Metal Gear release date and 1935 as corroborated by Peace Walker. My passport provided no advantages...

It does. The game literally starts and ends with "Just another day in Outer Heaven"

I believe Outer Heaven within the events of Phantom Pain was nothing more than a label and/or concept than an actual establishment. Mother Base still functions under the Diamond Dogs banner by the end of the game, but it's possible they switched over to the name afterward before constructing the main fortress in Africa. The appearance of the emblem in the debriefing mirror served a symbolic purpose since the prevalent finale interpretation suggests a large time jump occurred when he inserts the Operation Intrude N313 cassette tape suggesting the events of the original Meta Gear were immediately underway.

I agree that for all intents and purposes Venom IS Big Boss. He is part of the legend, not only in brand but also in deeds. What bothers people is that he isn't MGS3 Big Boss.

I loved the twist because it also shows real BB as a hypocrite scumbag.

I didn't want to see the MGS3 variant of the legendary soldier. I believe Phantom Pain should've showcased Big Boss turning into an undeniably wicked scoundrel akin to Walter White/Heisenberg like it alluded to in the marketing material. I understand the hypocrisy with establishing a military decoy in light of everything that has happened to Big Boss previously, but it was a weak effort when you don't fell any remorse for Venom Snake who accepts his fate until the very end.

 

[Screaming Meat]

The boss was a double agent as well, does that mean she faked her personality for the duration of metal gear solid 3?

This isn't as damning as you think. The Boss' job was to act like herself, surely? That's what the enemy were buying. I don't think a more embedded spy would do that.

But yeah, it's partial conjecture based on the character's history (in terms of game chronology rather than narrative) and his job. Not explicitly stated, but not a completely unreasonable assumption either, especially given his character make over.

Well, if you play long enough you'll have staff members saying "I don't care who you are" to Venom on Mother base, making it pretty much canonical that his phantom identity is at least suspected by/rumoured about among his men. This is doubled down on by the way the "Big Boss is Watching You" posters disappear late on also.

Ah, that's pretty cool. That doesn't change the fact that the game raises those questions.

The free will aspect I mentioned was directly referring to Venom's sense self-identity and self-determination within the story/saga. The whole point of Big Boss's "Man who sold the world" tape is to free Venom from the bonds of not just the delusion that he is who he thinks he is, but from Big Boss's own past and memories.

Does/did Venom go bad because of BB's implanted memories/identity, the reveal of what was done to him, or just as a consequence of the position he holds as ruler of a rogue military state?

Its pretty provocative and interesting stuff to consider. Is the trajectory of both BB and his Phantom as characters within the overall saga a result of choice or circumstance? Remember BB may go along with the Phantom plan, but its Zero driving it all with his play backed by Ocelot and later by Miller. BB wakes some time sooner than Venom, but events are well under way and have been in motion for years at that point. Ahab has already been "programmed" to believe he is BB, so reversing the situation isnt that simple.

That's certainly an interesting way of looking at things from a narrative perspective.

This I think goes to the mono-maniacal aspect of Ocelot's adoration of the boss, he wants to be her so badly he actually has taken on the love she had for BB as part of the process.

There's no indication whatsoever that his infatuation with BB is the result of an (completely unspoken or shown) infatuation with The Boss. He is shown time and again to be specifically interested in BB because it is him who first puts Ocelot in his place.

 

[Neiteio]

The opening line is actually something to the effect of "Just another day in a war without end -- Outer Heaven," so it seems to be saying it is literally Outer Heaven. Factor in the logo change in the mirror's reflection during the time skip and it seems clear that was its ultimate fate.

On mobile, though, so hard to check.

 

[SomTervo]

Finally finished. Thought it was amazing. I'm surprised most people hated the story. I thought it was great, and the plot twist was the best in the series, imo. LOVED the ending.

Great to hear. It has a lot of flaws, but I'm with you.

Here's to you.

 

[KTallguy]

I think "The Fall of Big Boss" is less compelling than "The Fall of the Player".

The choice of making it a bait and switch makes it very personal to the player. This overshadows any long term narrative about BB and his intentions.

This shift is why MGSV is a great "story", even if the narrative has some holes in it.

 

[Berserker976]

The opening line is actually something to the effect of "Just another day in a war without end -- Outer Heaven," so it seems to be saying it is literally Outer Heaven. Factor in the logo change in the mirror's reflection during the time skip and it seems clear that was its ultimate fate.

On mobile, though, so hard to check.

The place we see in the establishing shot is the actual Outer Heaven from MG1, it's not Diamond Dogs. The fate of DD is left completely unresolved.

 

[Clear]

I think "The Fall of Big Boss" is less compelling than "The Fall of the Player".

The choice of making it a bait and switch makes it very personal to the player. This overshadows any long term narrative about BB and his intentions.

This shift is why MGSV is a great "story", even if the narrative has some holes in it.

I'm sort of surprised more people aren't digging on the symmetry of both Venom and themselves as players going through the motions of believing themselves to be the one and only BB, only to have their darkest suspicions revealed to be true right at the end.

If you feel angry and betrayed, how do you imagine Venom is going to react were he a real person?

As in, at least some of the people most angry at not getting a big and splashy heel-turn are actual examples of why the next "chapter" is going to turn out the way it does

 

[SomTervo]

Agreed but , technically speaking, he's playing a part in MGS3 as well. He's a triple spy then too, after all. Regardless, the 20 year gap between 3 and V could easily account for him cooling down on the cockiness front. He still has exactly the same crush on Big Boss.

You know, I'm not sure we ever saw the "real" Ocelot till V and even then I'm not entirely sure if that's really him or not. .

Very true, I think I mis-wrote in my post, though, because I agree with you and I've written that before. Imo the only time we see Ocelot being "himself" is in MGSV. In MGS3 he's A) a spy and B) trying to prove he's a badass to Snake. He's got a lot to gain.

in MGS3 ocelot calls torture 'the ultimate form of expression'. that does not sound like someone who considers it merely necessary for intel. It sounds like someone who is obsessed with torture. was he faking then as well?

In MGS3 he is faking, yes. He is ADAM, the second spy for the CIA, IIRC. I think I miswrote in that post.

There's no mention of the body double scheme in the Kaz-Zero tape. Zero makes it look like it's actually Big Boss. He's stringing Kaz along.

During the tape your referring to I don't believe Zero tells Miller about project Venom racing, all he tells him is that he (Zero) has Big Boss's best interests at heart and that Miller will be alerted if Big Boss awakens with the code phrase we hear at the beginning of the game. I am going purely off memory so this could all be incorrect.

Cool, yeah I got that wrong.

 

[Johndoey]

I'm sort of surprised more people aren't digging on the symmetry of both Venom and themselves as players going through the motions of believing themselves to be the one and only BB, only to have their darkest suspicions revealed to be true right at the end.

If you feel angry and betrayed, how do you imagine Venom is going to react were he a real person?

But Venom's isn't a real person and he seems into the concept of being Fake Big Boss, so... his opinion doesn't matter(?). I can't feel bad for Venom cause when you make a major decision like "continue to be a phantom standing in for a real person" you take the bad with the good, Bad: Get deep sixed by a rookie. Good: Admiration of your followers. Dudes doesn't get to be pissed when he gets the carrot and the stick.

 

[SomTervo]

For some reason MGSV is tricking everyone into thinking there was a plot hole that was never there.

The plot has basically been airtight since MGS2, and was further given a vacuum barrier by MGS4.

MGSV never needed to, and doesn't, fill in any plot hole.

What it does is fill in a character hole. It fills in the one action which shows Big Boss totally turning on his own beliefs - the manipulation, control and ultimate sacrifice of Venom.

This post makes me feel like I've walked into a Looney Tunes episode.

OK.

It's a well-known fact among anyone who has studied any kind of narrative art. A good 'yarn' is how everything began, but since then stories have moved past this relatively simplistic approach. All the most important works of fiction I can think of don't focus on "plot" at all - Of Mice and Men, Robinson Crusoe, Brave New World, 1984, Utopia, Ulysses, Beloved, Blood Meridian, There Will Be Blood, Boyhood, - this is a tiny smidgen of the GOAT "stories", all of which were universally lauded (in some cases Nobel Prize winning) and have zero focus on plot.

Obviously I'm in no way putting MGSV on that pedestal with them, it is not of that calibre, but Hollywood and mundane storytelling has taught people to expect plot payoff in the first act. Which is a total fallacy. Real human stories don't have that, and good storytelling doesn't need that.

 

[Neiteio]

The player reaction and Venom reaction (to the twist) are different, but that's what makes it work. Venom needs to believe it wasn't all for naught so he trusts in a higher plan until it's too late. This is tragic from the player's POV because they know what's coming and can see what Venom cannot.

 

[heringer]

I have a question about the ending.

When Venom punches de mirror, was that 1995? It appears like a time lapse and he gets pissed at real Big Boss for sending Gray Fox and Solid Snake there?

He first smiles at the thought of being Big Boss, but flash forward 11 years and he now finally realised real Big Boss doesn't consider himself a friend or equal, but just another tool.

 

[marvelharvey]

What? The chopper's call sign is Pequod? I've been calling him B-squad for 100+ hours. This was a bigger twist than 'Truth'.

 

[SomTervo]

I have a question about the ending.

When Venom punches de mirror, was that 1995? It appears like a time lapse and he gets pissed at real Big Boss for sending Gray Fox and Solid Snake there?

He first smiles at the thought of being Big Boss, but flash forward 11 years and he now finally realised real Big Boss doesn't consider himself a friend or equal, but just another tool.

Nailed it.

That's how I read it, at least. It's Big Boss's ultimate betrayal of him and him realising this. Even though it's not really a betrayal, just a sacrifice. He's just been a pawn the entire time he's been running shit just like BB.

What? The chopper's call sign is Pequod? I've been calling him B-squad for 100+ hours. This was a bigger twist than 'Truth'.

Lmfao

Morpho was the A-team.

Pequod is the B-squad

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I have a question about the ending.

When Venom punches de mirror, was that 1995? It appears like a time lapse and he gets pissed at real Big Boss for sending Gray Fox and Solid Snake there?

He first smiles at the thought of being Big Boss, but flash forward 11 years and he now finally realised real Big Boss doesn't consider himself a friend or equal, but just another tool.

Yes it is.

 

[Johndoey]

The player reaction and Venom reaction (to the twist) are different, but that's what makes it work. Venom needs to believe it wasn't all for naught so he trusts in a higher plan until it's too late. This is tragic from the player's POV because they know what's coming and can see what Venom cannot.

Nah, I used to think this, but now it's just like you took the guise of a hunted military commander you should've seen something like this coming. Dude needed to nut up and deal, he could've abandoned ship if he really wanted too.

 

[The Silver]

Their whole "brother" exchange has "Plisskin" saying, "Save it - you're no brother of mine," denying any relationship between them.

At that point in the story, Raiden doesn't know his real identity, and considers Solid Snake a terrorist responsible for the Tanker incident. At the start of the scene, Solidus calls himself "Solid Snake". The real Solid Snake doesn't want to tell Raiden the truth about himself yet, but he doesn't like Solidus taking his identity, so he uses the third-person: "Stop impersonating him".

Considering Solidus introduces himself as "the boss to surpass Big Boss," interpreting Solid's line to refer to Big Boss is absurd.

Yeah.... I'm surprised this is even a thing. Solidus is literally impersonating Solid Snake. He calls himself Solid Snake in that very same cutscene. Why do people think Solid Snake was talking about Solidus impersonating Big Boss?

Yeah, I second this.

That was my initial reaction as well, but the whole conversation where Solidus refers to him as 'Snake' and 'brother', as well as Raiden calling him 'Snake'; would seem to suggest the pretense of both Solid and Solidus' disguises had pretty much collapsed at that point - 'stop impersonating him' in regards to Solidus taking on the name of Solid would have worked if it came directly after 'that is not Solid Snake', with the intervening dialogue, it makes just as much sense to refer to setting himself up as another Big Boss.

Yeah, i didn't even know this was a point of contention. I don't think it's debatable really. He's clearly referring to solidus trying to present himself as solid snake

through the power of my Big Boss level googling I've found what I was looking for

The barely translated MGS2 Cinema commentary from Kojima(there are ones for MGS1 and 3 as well)
http://www.tentenpro.com/muni_shinobu/mgs2/commentary.html

Snake : "あの男の真似事はやめろ！！ Stop imitating that man!!"
After looking at Solidus' face, Snake realizes that Solidus is purposefully making his appearance resemble that of Big Boss, with his hairstyle, mustache, and beard. Here Snake is telling Solidus to stop imitating Big Boss.

 

[heringer]

Nailed it.

That's how I read it, at least. It's Big Boss's ultimate betrayal of him and him realising this. Even though it's not really a betrayal, just a sacrifice. He's just been a pawn the entire time he's been running shit just like BB.



Lmfao

Morpho was the A-team.

Pequod is the B-squad

Yes it is.

Well, that's pretty awesome. I just got that from watching the ending again.

 

[SomTervo]

Nah, I used to think this, but now it's just like you took the guise of a hunted military commander you should've seen something like this coming. Dude needed to nut up and deal, he could've abandoned ship if he really wanted too.

"Venom, it's time to nut up or shut up"

Remember it is 11 years later, tho. He's spent 11 years totally succeeding as BB's body double. Suddenly it all comes crashing down when his back's against the wall and Solid Snake is coming for him, and when it's all to late he realises he will probably die, and in the end he meant little/nothing to BB, and will be forgotten forever.

through the power of my Big Boss level googling I've found what I was looking for

The barely translated MGS2 Cinema commentary from Kojima(there are ones for MGS1 and 3 as well)
http://www.tentenpro.com/muni_shinobu/mgs2/commentary.html

Snake : "あの男の真似事はやめろ！！ Stop imitating that man!!"
After looking at Solidus' face, Snake realizes that Solidus is purposefully making his appearance resemble that of Big Boss, with his hairstyle, mustache, and beard. Here Snake is telling Solidus to stop imitating Big Boss.

Shit, we were just having a discussion about this 10 pages back or so. Fucking great to have proper confirmation. That was exactly how I read it. It's hard to read it otherwise in context.

 

[Clear]

But Venom's isn't a real person and he seems into the concept of being Fake Big Boss, so... his opinion doesn't matter(?). I can't feel bad for Venom cause when you make a major decision like "continue to be a phantom standing in for a real person" you take the bad with the good, Bad: Get deep sixed by a rookie. Good: Admiration of your followers. Dudes doesn't get to be pissed when he gets the carrot and the stick.

Comes back to choice, free will if you like.

He didn't get asked whether he wanted to be BB's phantom in exactly the same way that the payer never got asked whether they wanted to play BB or his stand-in.

Its what I was getting at with asking whether people's approach to playing the game would have been different had they known upfront they weren't the real BB.

Obviously the true identity of their in-game persona matters to a lot of players, maybe just because as fans they want to play a style they believe is appropriate for that character. So why is applying this within the purely fictional world of the story such a stretch?

As players/audience members we want character motivations that seem believable and relatable (surely?), but what is believable and relatable for a character labouring under a false identity as opposed to being their true self?

Where does their nature ("Medic") stand in comparison to the nurture of the implanted memories of Big Boss ("Venom")? Hell, both characters have what looks like frontal lobe damage due to shrapnel which is known to have behaviour changing properties relating to self-control and aggression!

 

[Berserker976]

That's how I read it, at least. It's Big Boss's ultimate betrayal of him and him realising this. Even though it's not really a betrayal, just a sacrifice. He's just been a pawn the entire time he's been running shit just like BB.

In what way was Intrude N313 a planned sacrifice or betrayal? Solid Snake was sent in to die, Venom dying wasn't part of the plan.

This is one of the reasons I don't think Venom is ever angry or resentful of BB. There was really no betrayal. Big Boss just needed Venom there because the real thing had to keep his cover at Foxhound.

 

[Sub_Level]

through the power of my Big Boss level googling I've found what I was looking for

The barely translated MGS2 Cinema commentary from Kojima(there are ones for MGS1 and 3 as well)
http://www.tentenpro.com/muni_shinobu/mgs2/commentary.html

Snake : "あの男の真似事はやめろ！！ Stop imitating that man!!"
After looking at Solidus' face, Snake realizes that Solidus is purposefully making his appearance resemble that of Big Boss, with his hairstyle, mustache, and beard. Here Snake is telling Solidus to stop imitating Big Boss.

Nice find. I remember that from gamefaqs days.

Check out this: http://www.tentenpro.com/muni_shinobu/

edit: click on the spaces and have sound on

 

[SomTervo]

In what way was Intrude N313 a planned sacrifice or betrayal? Solid Snake was sent in to die, Venom dying wasn't part of the plan.

This is one of the reasons I don't think Venom is ever angry or resentful of BB. There was really no betrayal. Big Boss just needed Venom there because the real thing had to keep his cover at Foxhound.

What's the punch in the mirror about, though?

Also I don't think it was planned, and the more I think about it, the less I think it's a betrayal. (An intentional one, at least.)

I think when Solid Snake is cutting swathes through Outer Heaven, Big Boss sends the tape to Venom, and basically says 'You've been great, you've been me, but now it's probably game over'. He's not directly betraying Venom, but the only thing to happen is for Venom to die as a sacrifice. Big Boss can't go and save him because that would blow the ruse. And Venom ultimately realises it was all moot, he helped build BB's legend rather than his own, and now it's game over. Even though Big Boss was always on his side, he's still been sacrificed for his benefit. And in that moment he realises how insidious the entire body double plot was.

He looks unhappy and punches the mirror when it becomes 1995. This is the only reasoning I can see behind it.

 

[Johndoey]

"Venom, it's time to nut up or shut up"

Remember it is 11 years later, tho. He's spent 11 years totally succeeding as BB's body double. Suddenly it all comes crashing down when his back's against the wall and Solid Snake is coming for him, and when it's all to late he realises he will probably die, and in the end he meant little/nothing to BB, and will be forgotten forever.



Shit, we were just having a discussion about this 10 pages back or so. Fucking great to have proper confirmation. That was exactly how I read it. It's hard to read it otherwise in context.

It's just like dude he agreed to have you surgically altered and memory jacked to snatch some heat off his ass, dude doesn't have your best interest at heart. Its like a shitty marriage. I can't identify with his reasoning so his anger kinda at the betrayal kinda flops for me.

Comes back to choice, free will if you like.

He didn't get asked whether he wanted to be BB's phantom in exactly the same way that the payer never got asked whether they wanted to play BB or his stand-in.

Its what I was getting at with asking whether people's approach to playing the game would have been different had they known upfront they weren't the real BB.

Obviously the true identity of their in-game persona matters to a lot of players, maybe just because as fans they want to play a style they believe is appropriate for that character. So why is applying this within the purely fictional world of the story such a stretch?

As players/audience members we want character motivations that seem believable and relatable (surely?), but what is believable and relatable for a character labouring under a false identity as opposed to being their true self?

Where does their nature ("Medic") stand in comparison to the nurture of the implanted memories of Big Boss ("Venom")? Hell, both characters have what looks like frontal lobe damage due to shrapnel which is known to have behaviour changing properties relating to self-control and aggression!

Venom has a very clear and ever present motivation even before the reveal, he wants to further Big Boss's legacy. Everything he does is directly in service to this and he is described as Mother Base's best most loyal soldier. And the brain damage thing doesn't fly with me besides a few hallucinations and the memory loss from the botched therapy. Venom is the picture of self control, he responds appropriately for the situations he encounters, while trying to affect positive outcomes, absolutely nothing seems "off" about him. Venom is basically respectful and bland. I mean the entire game centers around suppression of expression and individuality it just handles the topic poorly.

 

[The Silver]

I also don't believe Venom was angry at all in the mirror scene. Venom's entire "life" as Big Boss he's been haunted by that demon, he struggled with guilt for his actions and saw himself as a monster.

Now Venom is in Outer Heaven, he's aware of the Intrude mission(I don't think there's any proof to say Solid is literally right outside blowing shit up), he looks in the mirror and sees the demon one last time and destroys it, revealing his true self.(how he sees it at least) Venom is no longer shackled by guilt, he no longer thinks he's a monster, he's taken out the demon and he's going to accomplish his mission; fully committed, fully invested, even if it kills him.

 

[KOMANI]

Batman Begins does the body double angle better.

 

[SomTervo]

it's just like dude he agreed to have you surgically altered and memory jacked to snatch some heat off his ass, dude doesn't have your best interest at heart. Its like a shitty marriage. I can't identify with his reasoning so his anger kinda at the betrayal kinda flops for me.

Fair enough. I always bought into it because we know Medic killed himself to save Big Boss already anyway. He sacrifices himself in GZ, jumping in front of the second Paz explosion. So Zero etc know that the Medic would give his life to Big Boss - and they reify this, making him Big Boss. So when Medic (now Venom) realises the truth in mission 46, he smirks at it and is OK with it.

It's only when he's about to die 10 years later, and realises he won't get any credit, that somebody else hijacked his life and Big Boss gets all the glory/legend, that he realises how horrible the plan is.

 

[Reebot]

Batman Begins does the body double angle better.

Is Big Boss immortal? Are his methods... supernatural?

 

[heringer]

What's the punch in the mirror about, though?

Also I don't think it was planned, and the more I think about it, the less I think it's a betrayal. (An intentional one, at least.)

I think when Solid Snake is cutting swathes through Outer Heaven, Big Boss sends the tape to Venom, and basically says 'You've been great, you've been me, but now it's probably game over'. He's not directly betraying Venom, but the only thing to happen is for Venom to die as a sacrifice. Big Boss can't go and save him because that would blow the ruse. And Venom ultimately realises it was all moot, he helped build BB's legend rather than his own, and now it's game over. Even though Big Boss was always on his side, he's still been sacrificed for his benefit. And in that moment he realises how insidious the entire body double plot was.

He looks unhappy and punches the mirror when it becomes 1995. This is the only reasoning I can see behind it.

Maybe Big Boss didn't want Venom to die, but he treats him as colateral damage when, at least in Venom's eyes, Big Boss could have saved his "friend". When he realises that, it feels like a betrayal to him, it feels like Big Boss doesn't give a shit about him and he will just vanish, with real BB getting all the glory.

 

[KOMANI]

Is Big Boss immortal? Are his methods... supernatural?

Nanomachines

 

[Berserker976]

What's the punch in the mirror about, though?

Also I don't think it was planned, and the more I think about it, the less I think it's a betrayal. (An intentional one, at least.)

I think when Solid Snake is cutting swathes through Outer Heaven, Big Boss sends the tape to Venom, and basically says 'You've been great, you've been me, but now it's probably game over'. He's not directly betraying Venom, but the only thing to happen is for Venom to die as a sacrifice. Big Boss can't go and save him because that would blow the ruse. And Venom ultimately realises it was all moot, he helped build BB's legend rather than his own, and now it's game over. Even though Big Boss was always on his side, he's still been sacrificed for his benefit. And in that moment he realises how insidious the entire body double plot was.

He looks unhappy and punches the mirror when it becomes 1995. This is the only reasoning I can see behind it.

I'll start by quoting the relevant parts of my previous posts when you first asked me about this

I've mentioned this before, but I think it's more than likely that Venom doesn't punch the mirror because he's angry at Big Boss.

When Venom looks into the mirror, we see reflected all the different incarnations of "medic boss" from the hospital to current day. Then, Venom punches the mirror, shattering his past self, rejecting fully his medic persona, and all that's left is Big Boss. He didn't punch it because he was angry with Big Boss, he punched it because he became Big Boss. By shattering the representation of his medic self, he's simultaneously rejecting his "player" self, since that's the point at which he goes off to act as the villain in MG1.

And if Venom really was cornered and cursing Big Boss because he'd been sent to die, why did he still pretend to be the real Big Boss when Solid Snake reached him?

I think it makes way more sense if Venom was totally on board and thought he was going to win right up til Solid Snake blew him up with an RPG.

And if you're looking for a more concrete, reality based reason for punching the mirror as opposed to a thematic reason, then I guess you could say he was psyching himself up. Less of a "Grrr, I'm angry! *smash*" and more of a "Time to go to work. *smash*" kinda thing.

 

[heringer]

This take is interesting, but I don't think it's supported by the lore. BB sent in SS thinking he would fail. When it becomes clear he has a chance of winning, the real BB even starts giving him bad advice over the codec.

And if Venom really was cornered and cursing Big Boss because he'd been sent to die, why did he still pretend to be the real Big Boss when Solid Snake reached him?

I think it makes way more sense if Venom was totally on board and thought he was going to win right up til Solid Snake blew him up with an RPG.

Because he wants to be Big Boss. In his eyes, he IS Big Boss, and now he will kill Solid Snake and get revenge on real Big Boss.

 

[SomTervo]

I'll start by quoting the relevant parts of my previous posts when you first asked me about this

And if you're looking for a more concrete, reality based reason for punching the mirror as opposed to a thematic reason, then I guess you could say he was psyching himself up. Less of a "Grrr, I'm angry! *smash*" and more of a "Time to go to work. *smash*" kinda thing.

Yeah I really like that reading – the reason I kept going is that I think there is a literal message there. I'm tying my reading into the 'Big Boss becomes a demon' narrative, which is that it's less 'demon' and more 'corrupt, apologetic manipulator', which is what he always fought against. I'm arguig the twist does fit into what the trailers promised.

I also don't think a 'Time to go to work' smash is what' happening. He's visibly angry and I think it's visibly a smash of rage.

Maybe Big Boss didn't want Venom to die, but he treats him as colateral damage when, at least in Venom's eyes, Big Boss could have saved his "friend". When he realises that, it feels like a betrayal to him, it feels like Big Boss doesn't give a shit about him and he will just vanish, with real BB getting all the glory.

Yeah - this is what I meant, but put more concisely.

 

[Reebot]

Nanomachines

The flight plan I filed with Pequod lists me, my dog, and Dr. Code Talker, but only one of you

 

[KOMANI]

The game fails in being clear.
I'm watching the Codec, and I spectate this thread...and I don't think you can definitely tell the story of metal gear, spanning through Snake Eater to 4. Too many inconsistencies, too many retcons, too many questions unanswered.
I get it, it's fun coming up with theories, but you won't find the answers from a forum or an analysis video. The only way you'll get the truth is if you ask Kojima yourself... AND even then there's no guarantee you'll get any truth (or consistency). The story is fucked. It reuses the same plot devises (a virus, something that manipulates soldiers, a deus ex machina etc.) and it stopped having a deeper message after 3.

 

[Berserker976]

Because he wants to be Big Boss. In his eyes, he IS Big Boss, and now he will kill Solid Snake and get revenge on real Big Boss.

"Aha! I'll do exactly as Big Boss has asked me to do! That will show him! Revenge will be mine!"

 

[heringer]

Yeah I really like that reading – the reason I kept going is that I think there is a literal message there. I'm tying my reading into the 'Big Boss becomes a demon' narrative, which is that it's less 'demon' and more 'corrupt, apologetic manipulator', which is what he always fought against. I'm arguig the twist does fit into what the trailers promised.

Yeah. I think the idea here is that in the end Venom feels manipulated just like Big Boss felt in the end of MGS3.

And that's the ultimate hypocrisy because every ideal Big Boss has emerged from that feeling of being a pawn.