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[Johndoey]

Fair enough. I always bought into it because we know Medic killed himself to save Big Boss already anyway. He sacrifices himself in GZ, jumping in front of the second Paz explosion. So Zero etc know that the Medic would give his life to Big Boss - and they reify this, making him Big Boss. So when Medic (now Venom) realises the truth in mission 46, he smirks at it and is OK with it.

It's only when he's about to die 10 years later, and realises he won't get any credit, that somebody else hijacked his life and Big Boss gets all the glory/legend, that he realises how horrible the plan is.

I know it would've ruined the scene for those that enjoyed it, but I would have absolutely loved if his last line was "In retrospect Big Boss was a dick". But nah I totally get why ya'll dig the ending.

Yeah I really like that reading – the reason I kept going is that I think there is a literal message there. I'm tying my reading into the 'Big Boss becomes a demon' narrative, which is that it's less 'demon' and more 'corrupt, apologetic manipulator', which is what he always fought against. I'm arguig the twist does fit into what the trailers promised.

I also don't think a 'Time to go to work' smash is what' happening. He's visibly angry and I think it's visibly a smash of rage.



Yeah - this is what I meant, but put more concisely.

I guess Venom would be glad to know Big Boss got got like two years down the road.

 

[Cronen]

Wait, the second bomb was in Paz's vaginal cavity? I assumed it was in her stomach as well, hence why she kept clutching her stomach while 'she' was in the medical bay.

Dat's fucked up, Hideo.

YUP!

 

[A-V-B]

He's right though, ask any writer worth their salt what the most important aspect of a piece of fiction is and none will tell you the plot.

Character, pacing, theme, structure, etc > plot.

Except structure is part of the plot. So is pacing.

But maybe I'm simply using a different theory of storytelling where basically all these elements tie into each other. Ultimately a story is its characters, yes, absolutely, but there should be a symbiotic relationship.

 

[brau]

The game fails in being clear.
I'm watching the Codec, and I spectate this thread...and I don't think you can definitely tell the story of metal gear, spanning through Snake Eater to 4. Too many inconsistencies, too many retcons, too many questions unanswered.
I get it, it's fun coming up with theories, but you won't find the answers from a forum or an analysis video. The only way you'll get the truth is if you ask Kojima yourself... AND even then there's no guarantee you'll get any truth (or consistency). The story is fucked. It reuses the same plot devises (a virus, something that manipulates soldiers, a deus ex machina etc.) and it stopped having a deeper message after 3.

The codec is that discussion with Yong, right?

I saw the one where they discuss the ending. They could not agree on something to explain the end. Each had a different interpretation.

What really got to me in that video was Yong making really big guesses to explain the story, and that to me is the big problem. Nothing is concise, nothing is clear. Not even the core of the story. Its a mess all the way through.

 

[Screaming Meat]

The game fails in being clear.

The codec is that discussion with Yong, right?

I saw the one where they discuss the ending. They could not agree on something to explain the end. Each had a different interpretation.

What really got to me in that video was Yong making really big guesses to explain the story, and that to me is the big problem. Nothing is concise, nothing is clear. Not even the core of the story. Its a mess all the way through.

What's wrong with ambiguity?

 

[Reebot]

"Aha! I'll do exactly as Big Boss has asked me to do! That will show him! Revenge will be mine!"

By killing Snake, he'll be the Boss to surpass Big Boss himself!

 

[Johndoey]

YUP!

They could've shoved it up her butt, I get why vagina was the first place they thought of. Plus alliteration with butt bomb.

 

[KOMANI]

The codec is that discussion with Yong, right?

I saw the one where they discuss the ending. They could not agree on something to explain the end. Each had a different interpretation.

What really got to me in that video was Yong making really big guesses to explain the story, and that to me is the big problem. Nothing is concise, nothing is clear. Not even the core of the story. Its a mess all the way through.

It's With Yong. The guy who makes excuses for Kojima.
In Metal Gear (and I speak only within the franchise), Kojima has not shown his brilliance since... 3? I'm really asking here, because the developer I liked has t done anything innovative or clever in a long time.
I don't agree with people claiming Hideo's brilliance for this game. What's brilliant about it? What's brilliant about 4? What's brilliant about PW? Transfarring?
He's brilliant in picking music for his trailer, and marketing his games, but Metal Gear? Explain to me what's so brilliant about V? Sincerely.

 

[heringer]

"Aha! I'll do exactly as Big Boss has asked me to do! That will show him! Revenge will be mine!"

Well, why Big Boss played his part by going in that condecoration when he knew that was a shameful charade and he hated the suits for what they did?

Venom believes in Outer Heaven. He still isn't sure about how to feel and will play his part for now.

I think Big Boss being an utter hypocryte is far more in tune with the theme of the game.

 

[Screaming Meat]

It's With Yong. The guy who makes excuses for Kojima.
In Metal Gear (and I speak only within the franchise), Kojima has not shown his brilliance since... 3? I'm really asking here, because the developer I liked has t done anything innovative or clever in a long time.
I don't agree with people claiming Hideo's brilliance for this game. What's brilliant about it? What's brilliant about 4? What's brilliant about PW? Transfarring?
He's brilliant in picking music for his trailer, and marketing his games, but Metal Gear? Explain to me what's so brilliant about V? Sincerely.

The gameplay.

 

[A-V-B]

The gameplay.

Well.. part of it.

The core gameplay -- that is, running around, shooting, sneaking -- is the best it's ever been by a country mile.

 

[real_slime]

I think "The Fall of Big Boss" is less compelling than "The Fall of the Player".

The choice of making it a bait and switch makes it very personal to the player. This overshadows any long term narrative about BB and his intentions.

This shift is why MGSV is a great "story", even if the narrative has some holes in it.

It's not the fall of anyone though. Throughout the whole game, you just do consistently heroic deeds, save countless lives and always show mercy. There aren't really any characters in this game, and the few ones that do show some personality, like Miller, go through absolutely no change at all through all the various (scattered, meandering and boring) events of the game. Miller is pissed off and wants revenge at the start, and he's pissed off and wants revenge at the end. The only difference is in the post-credits voiceover when the target of his lust for revenge shifts to someone else, but he just hits on the exact same note over and over again throughout the game - and the people he hates aren't well developed either. He just claims they betrayed our team and my reaction is 'Hm, Miller is angry again.' This is the most well developed character in the game.

I don't know who the hell this Southern guy named after Ocelot is.

I will say this! This game is an interesting failure. It isn't just bad, it's really confusing as to why they made the choices that make it bad. A lot of it seems intentional, including simple gameplay nuisances like having to wait for the chopper at the start of every mission and having cassettes buried in menus so you can't start and stop them easily during gameplay. The story is deliberately sparse and has no flow at all - and when you dig into the tapes, you get some more context, but it's still disjointed and over-explained rubbish.

It's just a really weird mess. A mix of unique failures and mundane successes.

 

[KOMANI]

What's wrong with ambiguity?

Meat, my man.. Nothing is wrong with it. Bloodborne is ambiguous and intriguing.
Metal Gear is a mess. 8 games to tell one story, and it never finishes it. After 8 games, you lose your chance in being ambiguous.

Mgs2, the cobra unit, foxhound from mgs1... At one point, very ambiguous.. And it worked.
When you're doing your "last Metal Gear", you tie things up. But Kojima made the same mistake he made on 4. Introducing more questions than tiding things up.

 

[Berserker976]

Well, why Big Boss played his part by going in that condecoration when he knew that was a shameful charade and he hated the suits for what they did?

Venom believes in Outer Heaven. He still isn't sure about how to feel and will play his part for now.

I think Big Boss being an utter hypocryte is far more in tune with the theme of the game.

I'm not sure I get your point. None of this explains why Venom would do exactly as Big Boss wanted him to do if he was so angry and resentful of the man.

 

[Screaming Meat]

It's not the fall of anyone though. Throughout the whole game, you just do consistently heroic deeds, save countless lives and always show mercy.

Except for Mission 43.

Meat, my man.. Nothing is wrong with it. Bloodborne is ambiguous and intriguing.
Metal Gear is a mess. 8 games to tell one story, and it never finishes it. After 8 games, you lose your chance in being ambiguous.

Mgs2, the cobra unit, foxhound from mgs1... At one point, very ambiguous.. And it worked.
When you're doing your "last Metal Gear", you tie things up. But Kojima made the same mistake he made on 4. Introducing more questions than tiding things up.

You don't like the lack of resolution?

 

[KOMANI]

The gameplay.

Nah dude. Game mechanics were tight in 4 also, it's that no one notices it because you don't need to use most of it. And the game mechanic took a long time to get right, but they nailed it. That's not brilliance, that's expected when it's 2015. If gameplay is the only brilliance that Kojima can come up with after the Psycho Mantis fight, the meta of MGS2, and the End fight... That's disappointing.

 

[Johndoey]

The gameplay.

Eh, its alright nothing spectacular. The gunplay was only serviceable, driving was tight though. Never saw a reason to switch to a different sidearm except experimentation for its own sake. Solid stable of primary options though, shotguns were kinda pointless, grenade launchers were enjoyable. The development menu was monotone and somewhat difficult to scroll through and look at. The Sally boss battle was just straight up garbage though. Zones probably could've stood to be a little more compact, a scarf should've come standard on every outfit, it makes Venom look dapper. D-Walker probably should've come standard with some of its initial unlocks. Quiet's fetish gear should have been the unlock, and the Xof uniform the standard.

 

[real_slime]

Except for Mission 43.

This is the infection on mother base mission, right?

Nope. He's straight up heroic in that one. It's darkly heroic, but he does what he absolutely has to to literally stop the entire English speaking world from being wiped out. If he didn't stop the infected crew from getting outside, the infection would spread and every single one of them is dead no matter what he does anyway. It's the only thing he can do. Most of the characters respect his actions, including many of the soldiers he kills (or euthanises if you look at it that way). The only person who has a strong objection is Huey, and he's shown elsewhere in the game to be the most untrustworthy and villainous person on Mother Base (and Snake still shows him mercy). You could argue Huey's guilt of various things is ambiguous, but I can't tell if that's just because the game is so scattered or if they were trying to make his objections carry some weight - even if he was totally heroic, he's still wrong here. All those guys had to die in the scenario the story sets up, and Snake is the hero for being the one to take the burden of their death on himself to SAVE THE WORLD.

There's no fall - there's just a few cutscenes of Snake standing silently covered in blood with a metaphorical horn. Nothing he does really feeds into the idea he is becoming a monster.

 

[The Silver]

MGSV, it's an interquel placed in the timeline as a bridge between two major events we've already scene, I don't think this was the time to go off and do some crazy ambiguous shit.

MGS2? sure. MGS4? sure. even MGS3, go ahead with that ambiguity. MGSV however is far too closely connected to set in stone canon events that succeed and precede it, it has little wiggle room. The MGS lore at this point is just an albatross Kojima has to deal with to make the games he really wants. IMO MGSV finally hit the breaking point of Kojima's own ideas for themes and story and the little wiggle that MGSV provides for doing crazy things.

 

[KOMANI]

Except for Mission 43.



You don't like the lack of resolution?

I don't care for it. It's over (for now). Metal Gear, as a story, is non existent. I guess you can compare it to Lost. The Phantom Pain has made me not really care for The lore. Definitely not mad. But the game is neither brilliant or completes the missing link. It's a good game. Nothing more.

 

[heringer]

I'm not sure I get your point. None of this explains why Venom would do exactly as Big Boss wanted him to do if he was so angry and resentful of the man.

So you don't think you can be resentful and obey at the same time? If he is smart, he doesn't want Big Boss to know he is angry at him, so he will play his part for now. He still needs Big Boss.

 

[Neiteio]

They could've shoved it up her butt, I get why vagina was the first place they thought of. Plus alliteration with butt bomb.

 

[KOMANI]

She hit the wall from peace walker to V. She looks more like a rat now.

 

[Berserker976]

So you don't think you can be resentful and obey at the same time? If he is smart, he doesn't want Big Boss to know he is angry at him, so he will play his part for now. He still needs Big Boss.

I'm not saying that, I just think you have to make far fewer assumptions and leaps in logic if you go with the idea that Venom was loyal to the end, and was totally on board with Intrude N313.

 

[Neiteio]

She hit the wall from peace walker to V. She looks more like a rat now.

She's gorgeous in MGSV. Looks like a real person. In PW she was like a creepy IMVU doll.

 

[KOMANI]

She's gorgeous in MGSV. Looks like a real person. In PW she was like a creepy IMVU doll.

She looked like my ex gf in PW.., who did in fact remind me of a girl from children of the corn.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Nah dude. Game mechanics were tight in 4 also, it's that no one notices it because you don't need to use most of it. And the game mechanic took a long time to get right, but they nailed it. That's not brilliance, that's expected when it's 2015. If gameplay is the only brilliance that Kojima can come up with after the Psycho Mantis fight, the meta of MGS2, and the End fight... That's disappointing.

Brilliant gameplay is disappointing? Come on, man, that's crazy talk. As if most games are brilliant. XD

They nailed open-infiltration stealth on their first try. Blew it out the park.

Eh, its alright nothing spectacular. The gunplay was only serviceable, driving waas tight though. Never saw a reason to switch to a different sidearm except experimentation for its own sake.

The gunplay ranks just under Max Payne 2/3 for me when it comes to TPS. That's only one part of it. Your standards must be incredibly high.

This is the infection on mother base mission, right?

Nope. He's straight up heroic in that one. It's darkly heroic, but he does what he absolutely has to to literally stop the entire English speaking world from dying. Most of the characters respect his actions, including the soldiers he kills (or euthanises if you look at it that way). The only person who has a strong objection is Huey, and he's shown elsewhere in the game to be the most untrustworthy and villainous person on Mother Base (and Snake still shows him mercy)

There's no fall - there's just a few cutscenes of Snake standing silently covered in blood with a metaphorical horn. Nothing he does really feeds into the idea he is becoming a monster.

Wait, is he straight up heroic or darkly heroic? One or the other, dude.

Plus, I didn't say Venom fell. Big Boss accepted a deal with the devil (Zero's plan) without batting an eyelid and became a terrible hypocrite on a level with Huey.

I don't care for it. It's over (for now). Metal Gear, as a story, is non existent. I guess you can compare it to Lost. The Phantom Pain has made me not really care for The lore. Definitely not mad. But the game is neither brilliant or completes the missing link. It's a good game. Nothing more.

Okay. I strongly disagree with that last sentiment though, man.

 

[Neiteio]

She looked like my ex gf in PW.., who did in fact remind me of a girl from children of the corn.

Erm, well, I'm not insulting your ex. I was just saying...

Why'd you have to go and make this conversation awkward, lol.

 

[SJRB]

She hit the wall from peace walker to V. She looks more like a rat now.

Well, she technically is...

 

[real_slime]

Wait, is he straight up heroic or darkly heroic? One or the other, dude.

They don't contradict each other. It's more heroic to have to take on that kind of guilt into yourself for the greater good than doing something where you don't have any personal consequences to live with. It's dark because of the situation he's put in, but his actions couldn't be more ultimate good guy in that situation. He did the best thing he could, and not for himself, but for the whole dang world.

You responded to my post about how nobody 'fell' in this story by saying that Mission 43 contradicts this - and Big Boss doesn't have anything to do with that, so you were talking about the actions of Venom Snake in that episode being villainous or indicative of the kind of fall people talk about with this game. Now you're saying you didn't say Venom fell, and that's fine, but I was responding to your first post where you indicated that's what you meant by pointing out mission 43.

 

[KOMANI]

Brilliant gameplay is disappointing? Come on, man, that's crazy talk. As if most games are brilliant. XD

They nailed open-infiltration stealth on their first try. Blew it out the park.



The gunplay ranks just under Max Payne 2/3 for me when it comes to TPS. That's only one part of it. Your standards must be incredibly high.



Wait, is he straight up heroic or darkly heroic? One or the other, dude.

Plus, I didn't say Venom fell. Big Boss accepted a deal with the devil (Zero's plan) without batting an eyelid and became a terrible hypocrite on a level with Huey.

Yea man, the answer "gameplay" is disappointing. Metal Gear was more than a game. Now it's just a game, so I'm not impressed that the "gameplay" is brilliant. It's supposed to be brilliant by now.

 

[KOMANI]

Erm, well, I'm not insulting your ex. I was just saying...

Why'd you have to go and make this conversation awkward, lol.

It's ok, haha I don't take offense that my ex is soulless ! Hahaha

 

[Screaming Meat]

Yea man, the answer "gameplay" is disappointing. Metal Gear was more than a game. Now it's just a game, so I'm not impressed that the "gameplay" is brilliant. It's supposed to be brilliant by now.

I'm sorry, mate. I just don't get this line of thinking at all. Brilliant gameplay isn't something that drops out of people's asses.

MGS is first and foremost a game. It will remind you at every opportunity of that. Kojima is first and foremost a game designer. Brilliant gameplay shouldn't be sniffed at, it should be praised!

They don't contradict each other. It's more heroic to have to take on that kind of guilt into yourself for the greater good than doing something where you don't have any personal consequences to live with. It's dark because of the situation he's put in, but his actions couldn't be more ultimate good guy in that situation. He did the best thing he could, and not for himself, but for the whole dang world.

I see what you mean. It's how you wrote it that confused me, as if the "darkly" was a but right after the "straight up" bit.

You responded to my post about how nobody 'fell' in this story by saying that Mission 43 contradicts this

I can see why that was confusing. I said Mission 43 as a wry comment about the "saves countless lives" and "shows mercy". Although he arguably did both, the latter depends on how the player did that section.

I get your point though.

 

[brau]

What's wrong with ambiguity?

Nothing. But ambiguity and impliying things like this make sense when there is a well established character, world, etc etc. Non present in MGSV. At least not in my opinion.

And trust me, i get the whole idea behind the story, i just don't think its a successful story, or characters or events. It all feels mute by the end and that is a big problem. Not to mention unfinished.

It's With Yong. The guy who makes excuses for Kojima.
In Metal Gear (and I speak only within the franchise), Kojima has not shown his brilliance since... 3? I'm really asking here, because the developer I liked has t done anything innovative or clever in a long time.
I don't agree with people claiming Hideo's brilliance for this game. What's brilliant about it? What's brilliant about 4? What's brilliant about PW? Transfarring?
He's brilliant in picking music for his trailer, and marketing his games, but Metal Gear? Explain to me what's so brilliant about V? Sincerely.

Yea. Yong just defends it as a blind fanboy, and he was never really sure of his answers, just speculation. Which is a big issue with the game.

 

[Arttemis]

Am I the only one to not interpret the ending to mean Venom becomes angry at Big Boss? Big Boss wrote such a heartfelt letter to Venom (and the player) with kind words and good intentions. I didn't see any malice toward Big Boss, nor do I think we can assume Big Boss is sending Venom to the wolves by letting Snake into Outer Heaven.

I still don't see Big Boss's complicity in this deal as evidence of him being any worse than he was at the end of MGS3, PO, PW, GZ. Someone consumed with rage toward to world wouldn't banter with lines like, "I gave her a light, she took the long way down." It's too cheeky.

 

[brau]

Am I the only one to not interpret the ending to mean Venom becomes angry at Big Boss? Big Boss wrote such a heartfelt letter to Venom (and the player) with kind words and good intentions. I didn't see any malice toward Big Boss, nor do I think we can assume Big Boss is sending Venom to the wolves by letting Snake into Outer Heaven.

I still don't see Big Boss's complicity in this deal as evidence of him being any worse than he was at the end of MGS3, PO, PW, GZ. Someone consumed with rage toward to world wouldn't banter like, "I gave her a light, she took the long way down."

His smirk at the end could go both ways i guess.

it could mean he understands and accepts his role as BB phantom. Or he is pissed and will show BB to fear what he has created.

 

[Screaming Meat]

His smirk at the end could go both ways i guess.

it could mean he understands and accepts his role as BB phantom. Or he is pissed and will show BB to fear what he has created.

I guess that's on the player?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

As much as Konami has burned all the bridges, I really want them to do a remake of MG1 and MG2, with an eventual remaster of MGS1.

Fix all the retcons, make it work. The story is already there. The gameplay is already there. The characters are already there. The fans are already there.

 

[brau]

I guess that's on the player?

I feel like a lot of this conversation is aimed at the player indeed. But if you take that away, then the interpretation of what Venom will be doing is unclear.

I guess the ending was more of a dialogue from Kojima TO the player. Not even BB to VS. Maybe thats why it falls apart when you think too much about it.

As much as Konami has burned all the bridges, I really want them to do a remake of MG1 and MG2, with an eventual remaster of MGS1.

i was looking forward to Silent Hills. New grounds and a new idea for Kojima. I felt this combo would really make him bring forward a lot of that love he has for games. P.T was amazing that way.

 

[KOMANI]

I'm sorry, mate. I just don't get this line of thinking at all. Brilliant gameplay isn't something that drops out of people's asses.

MGS is first and foremost a game. It will remind you at every opportunity of that. Kojima is first and foremost a game designer. Brilliant gameplay shouldn't be sniffed at, it should be praised!



I see what you mean. It's how you wrote it that confused me, as if the "darkly" was a but right after the "straight up" bit.



I can see why that was confusing. I said Mission 43 as a wry comment about the "saves countless lives" and "shows mercy". Although he arguably did both, the latter depends on how the player did that section.

I get your point though.

8 games in the main franchise. 6 in 3D... Yeah, you should have gotten gameplay done pact at that point. Still, MGS1-3 are more limited in gameplay (camera, fps shooting etc) than V, and yet are still better games. Better stories, better characters, better voice acting, better message, better execution, plus there are innovations. As opposed to? V? Which just has good game mechanics? In the Metal Gear lineage, it's a decent Metal Gear game. It's less than what we've come to expect.

 

[Neiteio]

As much as Konami has burned all the bridges, I really want them to do a remake of MG1 and MG2, with an eventual remaster of MGS1.

They will, but they will be pachinko machines with "HIT THE LEVER"

 

[SomTervo]

Except structure is part of the plot. So is pacing.

But maybe I'm simply using a different theory of storytelling where basically all these elements tie into each other. Ultimately a story is its characters, yes, absolutely, but there should be a symbiotic relationship.

There's no arbitrary theory of storytelling. (This isn't directed solely at you, I'm just trying to clarify things here.) "Story" works in one way:

The "story" is the entire thing. The whole universe, everything you don't see and do see. Story is made up of several ingredients: backstory/"lore" (the stuff you don't see), characters, places, themes, narrative (ie style or "execution") and plot.

Plot is only one thing: cause and effect events. Something happens, which makes something else happen, which makes something else happen, et cetera. This thread of events, taking you from the first minute to the last, is the "plot". Plot is only the logical thread that pulls the viewer through the narrative. Nothing more or less. The "narrative" is the thing which dictates pacing – it's how the thing is "told" – but plot is a less important sibling of the narrative. Plot a part of the story, but it's just the 'yarn' part. For example, many perfectly paced movies/tv shows/books/games have no 'plot' for ages, but the pacing is still perfect because of how it's told. Eg in The Wire or Mad Men, almost fuck all happens for several episodes. The plot is thin; the story is not.

When you say "story" more generally, story refers to the entire thing (and plot is a subset of that, just like the items I listed above). You have to be more precise otherwise. Sometimes you can say 'that movie/game had a great plot, but the narrative was shite', meaning, it had great twists and developments, but how it was told was poor. My gf thinks this of the film The Usual Suspects. Great plot and characters, with a great plot twist, but she found the execution (the narrative) turgid and tedious. (I disagree.)

Remember plot is sort of at the bottom of the pile. It's lowest in the storytelling ingredients hierarchy. Many of the greatest things have only one or two plot points (eg Mad Max: Fury Road: they go away from a place; they go back to a place).

I'm not quite sure which problem MGSV has. It's very big and complicated. The flaws are there, but they're hard to pinpoint. I think it mainly comes down to the narrative. I think the plot, characters and themes are all great. It's just the execution.

Also, all the shite above is codified in academic theory, I'm not just talking out my ass here

 

[Johndoey]

Alliteration

Spoiler

Put it in Paz's Pussy

.

Spoiler

Plz no ban, is just joke

 

[Johndoey]

Brilliant gameplay is disappointing? Come on, man, that's crazy talk. As if most games are brilliant. XD

They nailed open-infiltration stealth on their first try. Blew it out the park.



The gunplay ranks just under Max Payne 2/3 for me when it comes to TPS. That's only one part of it. Your standards must be incredibly high.

IDK man I would put a lot of the tps i've played over this, moment to moment gameplay wise. The shooting didn't click with me for whatever reason. I definitely think the gameplay is damn solid though don't get me wrong.

Damn second back to back post.

 

[Neiteio]

Alliteration

Spoiler

Put it in Paz's Pussy

.

Spoiler

Plz no ban, is just joke

Ha, in all honesty, I really had no reaction to them putting it there. It's not the first time a terrorist tried to stash a bomb there (in media or real life).

 

[brau]

There's no arbitrary theory of storytelling. (This isn't directed solely at you, I'm just trying to clarify things here.) "Story" works in one way:

The "story" is the entire thing. The whole universe, everything you don't see and do see. Story is made up of several ingredients: backstory/"lore" (the stuff you don't see), characters, places, themes, narrative (ie style or "execution") and plot.

Plot is only one thing: cause and effect events. Something happens, which makes something else happen, which makes something else happen, et cetera. This thread of events, taking you from the first minute to the last, is the "plot". Plot is only the logical thread that pulls the viewer through the narrative. Nothing more or less. The narrative is the thing which dictates pacing – it's how the thing is "told" – but plot is a less important sibling of the narrative. It's a part of the story, but it's just the 'yarn' part. For example, many perfectly paced movies/tv shows/books/games have no 'plot' for ages, but the pacing is still perfect because of how it's told. Eg in The Wire or Mad Men, almost fuck all happens for several episodes. The plot is thin; the story is not.

When you say "story" more generally, story refers to the entire thing (and plot is a subset of that, just like the items I listed above). You have to be more precise otherwise. Sometimes you can say 'that movie/game had a great plot, but the narrative was shite', meaning, it had great twists and developments, but how it was told was poor. My gf thinks this of the film The Usual Suspects. Great plot and characters, with a great plot twist, but she found the execution turgid and tedious. (I disagree.)

Remember plot is sort of at the bottom of the pile. It's lowest in the storytelling ingredients hierarchy. Many of the greatest things have only one or two plot points (eg Mad Max: Fury Road: they go away from a place; they go back to a place).

I'm not quite sure which problem MGSV has. It's very big and complicated. The flaws are there, but they're hard to pinpoint. I think it mainly comes down to the narrative. I think the plot, characters and themes are all great. It's just the execution.

Also, all the shite above is codified in academic theory, I'm not just talking out my ass here

I would like if someone did a summary of all themes, plot, and character arches or motives of the game with all of this in mind. See if the whole premise and execution really pay off.

I think overall right now, the story is so fragmented that its hard to follow as is. With everything layed down in tapes that might or might not have useful information.

The things i do know is that most characters in TPP seem to be flat. The Story has things happening.. but it never arches into its development, climax and conclusion. The TV format doesn't help, but even in tv and anime there are over arching episodes that cover themes and story with character development.

I guess the ending of Chapter 1 is a good example, when they actually say to be continued.

 

[Screaming Meat]

8 games in the main franchise. 6 in 3D... Yeah, you should have gotten gameplay done pact at that point. Still, MGS1-3 are more limited in gameplay (camera, fps shooting etc) than V, and yet are still better games. Better stories, better characters, better voice acting, better message, better execution, plus there are innovations. As opposed to? V? Which just has good game mechanics? In the Metal Gear lineage, it's a decent Metal Gear game. It's less than what we've come to expect.

Well, I didn't think it just had brilliant gameplay but even so, the one thing that makes a great game over and above absolutely everything else, is gameplay. It is the defining characteristic of the medium and is the one thing games do better than any other media. Everything else is a bonus.

Honestly, I will never understand the comment "it just had brilliant gameplay". That's almost like saying about a book "the plot was shit, it just had brilliant writing".

I feel like a lot of this conversation is aimed at the player indeed. But if you take that away, then the interpretation of what Venom will be doing is unclear.

I guess the ending was more of a dialogue from Kojima TO the player. Not even BB to VS. Maybe thats why it falls apart when you think too much about it.

Honestly, that's exactly how I took it. The myth of Big Boss is the pact between the player and Kojima.

IDK man I would put a lot of the tps i've played over this, moment to moment gameplay wise. The shooting didn't click with me for whatever reason. I definitely think the gameplay is damn solid though don't get me wrong.

Damn second back to back post.

Buttery smooth for me. I think of something, it happens. Can't ask for more. The number of options available are incredible. I can't think of a game that smoothly switches between gunplay, traversal and a fairly deep melee system so perfectly.

There's no arbitrary theory of storytelling. (This isn't directed solely at you, I'm just trying to clarify things here.) "Story" works in one way:

The "story" is the entire thing. The whole universe, everything you don't see and do see. Story is made up of several ingredients: backstory/"lore" (the stuff you don't see), characters, places, themes, narrative (ie style or "execution") and plot.

Plot is only one thing: cause and effect events. Something happens, which makes something else happen, which makes something else happen, et cetera. This thread of events, taking you from the first minute to the last, is the "plot". Plot is only the logical thread that pulls the viewer through the narrative. Nothing more or less. The narrative is the thing which dictates pacing – it's how the thing is "told" – but plot is a less important sibling of the narrative. It's a part of the story, but it's just the 'yarn' part. For example, many perfectly paced movies/tv shows/books/games have no 'plot' for ages, but the pacing is still perfect because of how it's told. Eg in The Wire or Mad Men, almost fuck all happens for several episodes. The plot is thin; the story is not.

When you say "story" more generally, story refers to the entire thing (and plot is a subset of that, just like the items I listed above). You have to be more precise otherwise. Sometimes you can say 'that movie/game had a great plot, but the narrative was shite', meaning, it had great twists and developments, but how it was told was poor. My gf thinks this of the film The Usual Suspects. Great plot and characters, with a great plot twist, but she found the execution turgid and tedious. (I disagree.)

Remember plot is sort of at the bottom of the pile. It's lowest in the storytelling ingredients hierarchy. Many of the greatest things have only one or two plot points (eg Mad Max: Fury Road: they go away from a place; they go back to a place).

I'm not quite sure which problem MGSV has. It's very big and complicated. The flaws are there, but they're hard to pinpoint. I think it mainly comes down to the narrative. I think the plot, characters and themes are all great. It's just the execution.

Also, all the shite above is codified in academic theory, I'm not just talking out my ass here

This guy knows his shit.

 

[brau]

Honestly, that's exactly how I took it. The myth of Big Boss is the pact between the player and Kojima.

THats how i took it too. I thought it was a charming and touching moment between Kojima and the player and as a farewell.

Buttery smooth for me. The number of options available are incredible. I can't think of a game that smoothly switches between gunplay, traversal and a fairly deep melee system so perfectly.

I love the gameplay and i agree with you on the options. My only gripe is that for the amount of time you play the game, the game does very little to engage you. I have mentioned this several times. But you always have to go engage the game for it to be fun. Its never the other way around where the game seeks to engage you for you to find your fun moments.

 

[Roni]

That's not brilliance, that's expected when it's 2015.

Except he did it, not Ubisoft with Splinter Cell, not any indie with a 2D game, not anyone. It's hard not to call it brilliance when he's the one consistently getting there first.

Dude practically created the stealth genre in 1987, released a game with a meaningful modern story in 1990, pioneered cinematic storytelling in 1998, dude pushed for meta-commentary in games in 2001, completely revamped the basics of the stealth genre in 2004, revolutionized character locomotion and ended the story of a franchise in 2008, brought AAA stealth gameplay and storytelling to the PSP in 2010 and now stealth in an open, organic world.

Your will to hate is blinding you.

What other franchises break new ground like Metal Gear does? Most games don't even try.

 

[Screaming Meat]

THats how i took it too. I thought it was a charming and touching moment between Kojima and the player and as a farewell.

That's why I loved it. It's also Kojima telling you that you were manipulated, hence differing interpretations of Venom's "look" likely reflect how the player took the deception.

I love the gameplay and i agree with you on the options. My only gripe is that for the amount of time you play the game, the game does very little to engage you. I have mentioned this several times. But you always have to go engage the game for it to be fun. Its never the other way around where the game seeks to engage you for you to find your fun moments.

Yeah, I remember we spoke about this. You compared it to GTAV and I said it's more like Hitman, where the fun comes from you slotting yourself into its world to "break" its sequences. I get where you're coming from, though (as always ;D).