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[Johndoey]

Ha, in all honesty, I really had no reaction to them putting it there. It's not the first time a terrorist tried to stash a bomb there (in media or real life).

Yeah I wasn't grossed out at the thought of it or anything, it just whiffed for me cause I think you're go "oh no Paz" but I went "Yay Paz is dead!". I don't think I was the target audience for the story in GZ.

Can someone remind of the content of the audio tapes in GZ cause mostly I remember Skully posturing, Chico complaining, and Paz getting raped on occasion. But its been a while and i'm drunk so........

 

[SomTervo]

Except he did it, not Ubisoft with Splinter Cell, not any indie with a 2D game, not anyone. It's hard not to call it brilliance when he's the one consistently getting there first.

Dude practically created the stealth genre in 1987, released a game with a meaningful modern story in 1990, pioneered cinematic storytelling in 1998, dude pushed for meta-commentary in games in 2001, completely revamped the basics of the stealth genre in 2004, revolutionized character locomotion and ended the story of a franchise in 2008, brought AAA stealth gameplay and storytelling to the PSP in 2010 and now stealth in an open, organic world.

Your will to hate is blinding you.

What other franchises break new ground like Metal Gear does? Most games don't even try.

Word!

I would like if someone did a summary of all themes, plot, and character arches or motives of the game with all of this in mind. See if the whole premise and execution really pay off.

I think overall right now, the story is so fragmented that its hard to follow as is. With everything layed down in tapes that might or might not have useful information.

The things i do know is that most characters in TPP seem to be flat. The Story has things happening.. but it never arches into its development, climax and conclusion. The TV format doesn't help, but even in tv and anime there are over arching episodes that cover themes and story with character development.

I guess the ending of Chapter 1 is a good example, when they actually say to be continued.

I agree. That'll come in time, though. People will do big spiderweb maps of the story and shiii.

Edit: no, wait, I agree that it would be great to have a big analysis of the game's various story elements.

I don't agree that it failed in execution as a whole. I think MGSV is a flawed gem, a near-masterpiece.

This guy knows his shit.

*blush*

 

[Stereogatari]

Well.. part of it.

The core gameplay -- that is, running around, shooting, sneaking -- is the best it's ever been by a country mile.

Don't forget that sweet gameplay loop. Sacking an outpost/guardpost is like grinding in an addictive JRPG. You've even got an airship and "town" in MB.

 

[brau]

That's why I loved it. It's also Kojima telling you that you were manipulated, hence differing interpretations of Venom's "look" likely reflect how the player took the deception.

I actually liked this bit... it felt more intimate. But not for reasons of story or narrative to follow MGS.

This scene was very different from Mission 43 too. where i thought there was a big impact on what was happening in the story.

Yeah, I remember we spoke about this. You compared it to GTAV and I said it's more like Hitman, where the fun comes from you slotting yourself into its world to "break" its sequences. I get where you're coming from, though (as always ;D).

I love Hitman. But Hitman is more how many ways can i get away with committing murder, and how smart can i be while i am at it.

Both Hitman and MGSV fall under the same hole tho.. they both try to string a story in between together, and this story has to be really awesome or it will just fall apart.

You ask me what was teh story of Hitman Bloodmoney and i can't say. but i can tell you how much fun i had with that game and all the levels and how memorable the setting of each encounter was.

MGSV has bits like that. But its not as often. The thing that prevails in my mind is how much time i spent getting from point a to b with very little to do. This is fixed in GZ... where its contained, so its a lot more memorable. It all comes down to tuning and balance. I still think most of the world in MGSV was there to justify things happening more often than not.

But i am sure time constraint dictated the cuts and restrictions and we had just a game that gives you the freedom of choice but only when you interact with it.

that post was way too long.

I agree. That'll come in time, though. People will do big spiderweb maps of the story and shiii.

Edit: no, wait, I agree that it would be great to have a big analysis of the game's various story elements.

I don't agree that it failed in execution as a whole. I think MGSV is a flawed gem, a near-masterpiece.

i felt Chapter 1 was great. It had pacing, it felt like i was the one doing the narrative. The story gave me glimpses of things to come. Skullface dying early lead me to believe that he would come back as a bigger issue in the next chapter. Specially with him appearing behind you in the end of it after he is dead. Chapter 2 comes and the trailer looks amazing. Things spiral down into something that promises to be bigger and bam... it never gets there.

Chapter 2 was short, pointless and most of everything was a hit or miss on how you find it. Which lacks the same pacing and presentation or cohesive sense that Chapter 1 had. This was a big blow to the story imo. Things kinda didn't go anywhere and the things that did just were not very important.

Man on Fire being Volgin and thats it was meh.
Mantis not developed or further explained is meh.
Liquid being bratty for the sake of being bratty and not developing a bond and a sense of betrayal by VS and BB is meh.
Quiet has an interesting close to her arch.
Paz has the most interesting arch imo.
Miller is just angry and continues to be angry except we are told that he always knew... meh.
Ocelot has motives but he never transcends to more in the story but just the guy that gives you facts. OH and hypnotizing!
Codetalked... parasite talks... he is just there to justify the story by saying the word parasites the most.
Skullface never appears again.....
Zero is a very interesting character because he is the most misunderstood since GZ... and not by us, but by his motives, his alliance and his goals.

BUt the most frustrating bit is that most of the things that make a big impact in the story/characters and arch all happen outside of the game. IN a tape someone recorded this happened.

 

[Kinyou]

I enjoy reading it but they've even gone a little too nutso for me. You want to speculate that a Chapter 3 is coming as DLC? Sure, that's one thing.

More and more of them think that MGSV is literally a "Phantom game" made by a B-team using assets from the real MGS5, which Kojima has been working on in secret.

And that's fucking crazytown.

It's obviously nuts, but just how cool would that be to get a classic MGS 5 that follows the story of the real Boss.

Maybe Konami will do a pachinko version of it.

 

[GreyOcelot]

oh man. I was just replaying some missions, getting the mission tasks done. I was playing red brass, and i decided to just clear all 3 bases and fuck with the 3 targets. I cleared out Da Wialo and left the commander there stunned, and so I moved on to Da Shago. and as i arrived there, i noticed the commander was rapidly moving towards me from 800m away. Dude RAN ALL THE WAY from Da Wialo to Da Shago. went off to the side of the base, investigated seemingly nothing, then turned around and ran 1000m all the way back to Da Wialo.

 

[Johndoey]

Word!



I agree. That'll come in time, though. People will do big spiderweb maps of the story and shiii.

Edit: no, wait, I agree that it would be great to have a big analysis of the game's various story elements.

I don't agree that it failed in execution as a whole. I think MGSV is a flawed gem, a near-masterpiece.



*blush*

I like you man you got a good head on your shoulders, always back up your assertions. Even if I disagree with ya on this game.

 

[SomTervo]

I like you man you got a good head on your shoulders, always back up your assertions. Even if I disagree with ya on this game.

Back atcha bub. I've gotten frustrated a couple of times ITT with people who make (often vitriolic) jibes then don't actually engage in any conversation about the game.

oh man. I was just replaying some missions, getting the mission tasks done. I was playing red brass, and i decided to just clear all 3 bases and fuck with the 3 targets. I cleared out Da Wialo and left the commander there stunned, and so I moved on to Da Shago. and as i arrived there, i noticed the commander was rapidly moving towards me from 800m away. Dude RAN ALL THE WAY from Da Wialo to Da Shago. went off to the side of the base, investigated seemingly nothing, then turned around and ran 1000m all the way back to Da Wialo.

This is how you're meant to play the game. Just go deep and have fun.

It's not traditional MGS style, but we haven't seen that since MGS3. The gameplay iin MGSV is unbelievably deep and rich. I think the complainers ITT are just tired of it. There is definitely arguably too much of it.

 

[KOMANI]

Except he did it, not Ubisoft with Splinter Cell, not any indie with a 2D game, not anyone. It's hard not to call it brilliance when he's the one consistently getting there first.

Dude practically created the stealth genre in 1987, released a game with a meaningful modern story in 1990, pioneered cinematic storytelling in 1998, dude pushed for meta-commentary in games in 2001, completely revamped the basics of the stealth genre in 2004, revolutionized character locomotion and ended the story of a franchise in 2008, brought AAA stealth gameplay and storytelling to the PSP in 2010 and now stealth in an open, organic world.

Your will to hate is blinding you.

What other franchises break new ground like Metal Gear does? Most games don't even try.

I agree with everything you said, but I'm not angry. I just don't care. Don't mistake my harsh criticizing for hate. I love the franchise. But this game is the first to disappoint me.

 

[Unknown One]

I wouldn't see there is too much of it. The problem is the game makes you do the same damn mission types over and over. It's the repetitive nature of the overall game structure. Not to mention the huge amount of filler missions just dragging the nature of the game down.

 

[brau]

I wouldn't see there is too much of it. The problem is the game makes you do the same damn mission types over and over. It's the repetitive nature of the overall game structure. Not to mention the huge amount of filler missions just dragging the nature of the game down.

This is what i was talking about.

You are expected to always engage the game. Usually in the same way.

The game breaks this when you have to procure weapons and items on site, or you get caught and its gameover. This is as far as it goes to engage you directly. Everything else, you have to go and poke at the game for you to get a sense that something is happening.

 

[Inferno313]

I would like if someone did a summary of all themes, plot, and character arches or motives of the game with all of this in mind. See if the whole premise and execution really pay off.

I think overall right now, the story is so fragmented that its hard to follow as is. With everything layed down in tapes that might or might not have useful information.

The things i do know is that most characters in TPP seem to be flat. The Story has things happening.. but it never arches into its development, climax and conclusion. The TV format doesn't help, but even in tv and anime there are over arching episodes that cover themes and story with character development.

I guess the ending of Chapter 1 is a good example, when they actually say to be continued.

The structure is a bit odd, but I don't think it's such a failure that you can't identify the core elements.

Chapter 1 has a very traditional three act structure. The first act would be the prologue up through Mission 12. We're introduced to the cast of characters. We learn a bit about the relationship between each of these characters. Then at Mission 12 we get our first turning point. We see Skullface for the first time in this story, and we learn of the existence of Sahelanthrapus. That's our inciting incident. Act 2 would be everything from Mission 13-27. We have a clear goal at this point, stopping Skullface, but find ourselves in increasingly worse situations. We learn the stakes of Skullface's scheme as the outbreak begins. Mission 28 begins the third act and climax which carries through Mission 31. The outbreak is stopped, Skullface is dead, Sehelnthrapus is captured, and most of the most major plot threads seem tied up. It's a pretty neat and tidy three act structure.

Chapter 2 is where things get weird. Which probably has as much to do with it's divisive nature as does the change in gameplay structure. Any kind of traditional plot structure is gone at this point, and it acts as kind of a protracted denouement. I'm sure there are more obvious literary parallels to this, but off the top of my head it's similar to the battle of bywater in The Return of the King (the novel) or the last few scenes of The Hurt Locker after Jeremy Renner tries to find the parents of the boy.

At the same time, it seems Chapter 2 is where Kojima gets to the meat of a lot of his themes. It's where "The Phantom Pain" of Revenge really kicks in. The first chapter is this traditional action movie plot where you finally get Revenge at the end. Chapter 2 is this looser slow unraveling of everything you've built through the game without a goal in sight.

 

[Neiteio]

Way I see it, many of the characters in TPP -are- flat, in the sense they have strong personalities that are relatively fixed... But that's fine. They have roles to play and they play them well. Often they're exerting pressure on Venom, and it's Venom who grows. (Quiet, too, but Venom is the important one.)

I've described before how he's finding himself, becoming more of a leader than a follower (relative to his men, I mean), and trending toward benevolence and mercy. Getting his revenge on Skull Face is a turning point. The "ghosts of his past" (Paz and Skull Face) imply a meditation on revenge vs. mercy, and we see where he lands. The most notable expression of this is how much he struggles with the deaths of his men during M43, yet how he spares the man responsible shortly thereafter. Someone could cynically say Huey has plot armor, but I think it's a calculated contrast that would remain even if Huey was never mentioned again. It's a decision that bewilders Kaz, who hasn't softened like Venom.

And like SomTervo said, the A-to-B plot is only part of the equation. The game strings it together with only a handful of exhibits, but there's a lot more conveyed through body language and facial expressions, through what's not said and done. This is interpretative, of course, but so is a lot of performance work. It felt consistent to me: A certain softness in Venom that's there from the start and becomes more apparent when he's tested on revenge. He fails the first test (or at least, fails to do the right thing), but by the end of the game he sees no value in revenge.

Is it the game's main focus? No, not necessarily. But there was enough there for Venom to feel like a character who evolved. It was subtle but supported by changing actions and the occasional insights we receive directly into his mind. This game isn't one to spell everything out in codecs, and frankly, I appreciate this. You have to try and understand these characters by observing them rather than simply listening.

 

[SomTervo]

I wouldn't see there is too much of it. The problem is the game makes you do the same damn mission types over and over. It's the repetitive nature of the overall game structure. Not to mention the huge amount of filler missions just dragging the nature of the game down.

Every time I start thinking that I play a side op which is in a unique place with unique enemy placement, and I fall in love all over again.

However, I am very disappointed with the lack of objective types. I long for Ground Zeroes' "destroy the anti air guns" and stuff. That was gold and totally absent in TPP. The idea is that you make these objectives up yourself out of necessity, but there are so many options and so much freedom that this necessity never really arises. If you rise to meet the freedom in gameplay, then it's perfect, but if you want something more structured, you're gonna be disappointed.

Killer av, btw.

The structure is a bit odd, but I don't think it's such a failure that you can't identify the core elements.

Good post - the way I describe it is that Chapter 1 is like the traditional MGS game narrative, chapter 2 is the follow-up TV miniseries where they tie off a few loose ends. It's a very different thing, but I felt it fit well into the overall package.

This is what i was talking about.

You are expected to always engage the game. Usually in the same way.

The game breaks this when you have to procure weapons and items on site, or you get caught and its gameover. This is as far as it goes to engage you directly. Everything else, you have to go and poke at the game for you to get a sense that something is happening.

If that's how you found the game, that's fine – but the game does not "expect" you to engage in the same "usual" way. The game expects you to play it and have fun in any way possible - that's all. It expects you to make the most of all the ingredients it gives you. That's why it was designed the way it is. I agree often there isn't enough direction, but not every game needs loads of that, especially not sandbox ones.

 

[Screaming Meat]

You know, it must be said:

I thought stepping in here was going to be a bloody nightmare, but the discussions are all really civil and a genuine delight to take part in.

I'm uh not dying, btw. Just sayin'.

Hope that didn't come across as patronising. Not the intention!

 

[Neiteio]

The structure is a bit odd, but I don't think it's such a failure that you can't identify the core elements.

Chapter 1 has a very traditional three act structure. The first act would be the prologue up through Mission 12. We're introduced to the cast of characters. We learn a bit about the relationship between each of these characters. Then at Mission 12 we get our first turning point. We see Skullface for the first time in this story, and we learn of the existence of Sahelanthrapus. That's our inciting incident. Act 2 would be everything from Mission 13-27. We have a clear goal at this point, stopping Skullface, but find ourselves in increasingly worse situations. We learn the stakes of Skullface's scheme as the outbreak begins. Mission 28 begins the third act and climax which carries through Mission 31. The outbreak is stopped, Skullface is dead, Sehelnthrapus is captured, and most of the most major plot threads seem tied up. It's a pretty neat and tidy three act structure.

Chapter 2 is where things get weird. Which probably has as much to do with it's divisive nature as does the change in gameplay structure. Any kind of traditional plot structure is gone at this point, and it acts as kind of a protracted denouement. I'm sure there are more obvious literary parallels to this, but off the top of my head it's similar to the battle of bywater in The Return of the King (the novel) or the last few scenes of The Hurt Locker after Jeremy Renner tries to find the parents of the boy.

At the same time, it seems Chapter 2 is where Kojima gets to the meat of a lot of his themes. It's where "The Phantom Pain" of Revenge really kicks in. The first chapter is this traditional action movie plot where you finally get Revenge at the end. Chapter 2 is this looser slow unraveling of everything you've built through the game without a goal in sight.

I like your three-act structure. I usually think of Ch. 1 as the following three acts: Missions 1-12 (Afghanistan, ending in the the discovery of Sahelanthropus), Missions 13-20 (Africa, uncovering a conspiracy involving the invalids and yellowcake), and Missions 21-31 (the pandemic reveal, Code Talker, and foiling Skull Face's plan). I think that's more balanced from a gameplay perspective, but I also like your idea of making M28-M31 the "Act 3," since it really is the climax of the conflict.

It all leads up to exacting revenge on Skull Face, which then sets up Ch. 2, a slice-of-life short story collection that functions like an extended epilogue and wraps character arcs with the general unifying thread of "Have we achieved personal peace." It shows how life at Mother Base went on after Skull Face, the life they earned themselves with revenge, for better or worse. Venom makes some decisions that show him putting on his big boy pants and standing down Kaz, when before he would've let Kaz guide his hand and pull the trigger. Cutscenes such as the second and third Paz visions and of course Diary #5 are exclusive to Ch. 2 and inform this meditation on "Was revenge the right answer." It's a loose structure and I can understand those who didn't like it, but it worked for me as a sort of character exploration.

 

[Inferno313]

You know, it must be said:

I thought stepping in here was going to be a bloody nightmare, but the discussions are all really civil and a genuine delight to take part in.

I'm uh not dying, btw. Just sayin'.

Hope that didn't come across as patronising. Not the intention!

I agree. No matter whether you're an MGSV fan or a dirty dirty hater (I tease). This thread is full of strong and civil arguments and less drive-by shit-posting here than in any spoiler thread I've been apart of on Gaf.

 

[Unknown One]

Every time I start thinking that I play a side op which is in a unique place with unique enemy placement, and I fall in love all over again.

However, I am very disappointed with the lack of objective types. I long for Ground Zeroes' "destroy the anti air guns" and stuff. That was gold and totally absent in TPP. The idea is that you make these objectives up yourself out of necessity, but there are so many options and so much freedom that this necessity never really arises. If you rise to meet the freedom in gameplay, then it's perfect, but if you want something more structured, you're gonna be disappointed.

Killer av, btw.



Good post - the way I describe it is that Chapter 1 is like the traditional MGS game narrative, chapter 2 is the follow-up TV miniseries where they tie off a few loose ends. It's a very different thing, but I felt it fit well into the overall package.



If that's how you found the game, that's fine – but the game does not "expect" you to engage in the same "usual" way. The game expects you to play it and have fun in any way possible - that's all. It expects you to make the most of all the ingredients it gives you. That's why it was designed the way it is. I agree often there isn't enough direction, but not every game needs loads of that, especially not sandbox ones.

I'm not really counting side ops since it's side missions. But the main mission is mostly stalk this guy, extract these guys, and eliminate this guy. Sometimes you get those annoying ass Skull Units.

Side ops are much more fun than the main missions. Those were crap.

 

[SomTervo]

You know, it must be said:

I thought stepping in here was going to be a bloody nightmare, but the discussions are all really civil and a genuine delight to take part in.

I'm uh not dying, btw. Just sayin'.

Hope that didn't come across as patronising. Not the intention!

I agree. No matter whether you're an MGSV fan or a dirty dirty hater. (I tease) This thread is full of strong and civil arguments and less drive-by shit-posting here than in any spoiler thread I've been apart of on Gaf.

I think that's the case now, and I don't want to cause any beefs/ruin the vibe, but back in SpT1... Things were really not as nice. It was pretty horrible.

To be blunt, I think it's only nice in here now because the earlier swathes of raging people have left in frustration, or because they just want to forget the game.

I'm not really counting side ops since it's side missions. But the main mission is mostly stalk this guy, extract these guys, and eliminate this guy. Sometimes you get those annoying ass Skull Units.

Side ops are much more fun than the main missions. Those were crap.

Oh, sorry. Misunderstood. You should call those "side objectives", just a little bit more clear.

I wasn't a fan of 2/3rds of the main missions either until I started replaying them to do the side objectives. Once you start going for 6/6 side objectives on each one, they become way more fun (in the vast majority of cases). In fact, I'd even say the gameplay begins to shine when you go back to replay the Episodes.

 

[Berserker976]

If that's how you found the game, that's fine – but the game does not "expect" you to engage in the same "usual" way. The game expects you to play it and have fun in any way possible - that's all. It expects you to make the most of all the ingredients it gives you. That's why it was designed the way it is. I agree often there isn't enough direction, but not every game needs loads of that, especially not sandbox ones.

I think I'd be totally ok with this if this were a new IP. The problem is, I'm a big fan of the Metal Gear Solid series. I had hoped to play another one. But by going open world, MGSV suffers the same fate as all open world games, it loses focus.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every game needs to have a tight focus. My other favorite games series is the Elder Scrolls series, for instance. It's just that, having a tightly focused narrative was a staple of the Metal Gear Solid series, and MGSV breaks that tradition in spectacular fashion.

 

[Screaming Meat]

I think that's the case now, and I don't want to cause any beefs, but back in SpT1... Things were really not as nice. It was pretty horrible.

To be blunt, I think it's only nice in here now because the earlier swathes of raging people have left in frustration, or because they just want to forget the game.

Ah.

 

[Neiteio]

 

[Inferno313]

Everytime I see a shipping container out and about this happens.

Me: Oh shit I have to fulton that!

Girlfriend: What?

 

[brau]

You know, it must be said:

I thought stepping in here was going to be a bloody nightmare, but the discussions are all really civil and a genuine delight to take part in.

I'm uh not dying, btw. Just sayin'.

Hope that didn't come across as patronising. Not the intention!

are you being patronizing to me right now? is that what you are trying to say?

 

[Neiteio]

Everytime I see a shipping container out and about this happens.

Me: Oh shit I have to fulton that!

Girlfriend: What?

I had that happen this morning while driving out to interview someone, lol. It was a red freight container sitting in the yard. No guards or anything. Easy pickings, but y'know, IRL and such.

 

[brau]

If that's how you found the game, that's fine – but the game does not "expect" you to engage in the same "usual" way. The game expects you to play it and have fun in any way possible - that's all. It expects you to make the most of all the ingredients it gives you. That's why it was designed the way it is. I agree often there isn't enough direction, but not every game needs loads of that, especially not sandbox ones.

For the time that they framed this game to take to complete. you bet design should've thought about that kind of interaction. Tools and items by the dozen don't mean much if the game is not keeping you engage on its own terms.

I am not even talking about an overhaul. But the game has plenty of issues where you can just run to the objective to be done without playing the game. You get caught. just run away until they don't follow.

I have not even mentioned the fulton and buddy system that completely unbalance the game. Making it optional doesn't make it a good design move.

Just my 2 cents tho.

 

[SJRB]

How does Code Talker get on top of the Command Platform tower with his wheelchair anyway?

 

[Unknown One]

How does Code Talker get on top of the Command Platform tower with his wheelchair anyway?

Do you even need to ask? Parasites, son!

 

[WrenchNinja]

How does Code Talker get on top of the Command Platform tower with his wheelchair anyway?

How does anyone do anything in this game? Parasites.

 

[SomTervo]

I think I'd be totally ok with this if this were a new IP. The problem is, I'm a big fan of the Metal Gear Solid series. I had hoped to play another one. But by going open world, MGSV suffers the same fate as all open world games, it loses focus.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every game needs to have a tight focus. My other favorite games series is the Elder Scrolls series, for instance. It's just that, having a tightly focused narrative was a staple of the Metal Gear Solid series, and MGSV breaks that tradition in spectacular fashion.

I totally get you. I was lucky because A) MGS4 was so horrible I expected 0 from the story of any following games and B) it looked like they were focusing 99% on gameplay this time around, which was music to my ears, because I always replayed the games for the gameplay, not the story, which was a one-and-done deal for me.

Cue MGSV and one of my personal GOATs.

PS I don't think the story lost focus because of the open world. I don't think it's the open world's fault. Plenty of open worlds have great, focussed stories. MGSV's story lost focus because it just wasn't a priority like the previous games. (Also imo the stories were always fairly unfocused, they were just loud and intense.)

Ah.

it was really mean

are you being patronizing to me right now? is that what you are trying to say?

I don't think he is man. I'm pretty sure he's being sincere.

For the time that they framed this game to take to complete. you bet design should've thought about that kind of interaction. Tools and items by the dozen don't mean much if the game is not keeping you engage on its own terms.

I am not even talking about an overhaul. But the game has plenty of issues where you can just run to the objective to be done without playing the game. You get caught. just run away until they don't follow.

I have not even mentioned the fulton and buddy system that completely unbalance the game. Making it optional doesn't make it a good design move.

Just my 2 cents tho.

I accept that. I would definitely do things differently. However, I don't think these aspects break the game at all. I think it's a truly great game despite these issues.

Also, playing on PC is amazing because you can mod any mission to be Subsistence variant.

And guess what? It works fine. It forces you to do shit with far more intelligence and care.

Really boggles the mind why they didn't make it optional across the board.

 

[brau]

I don't think he is man. I'm pretty sure he's being sincere.

I am sure he knows i am pulling his leg.

i do agree i enjoy having debates and convos about mgsv.

 

[SomTervo]

I am sure he knows i am pulling his leg.

i do agree i enjoy having debates and convos about mgsv.

Christ thank god, that post was intense to read, haha!

 

[Neiteio]

I totally get you. I was lucky because A) MGS4 was so horrible I expected 0 from the story of any following games and B) it looked like they were focusing 99% on gameplay this time around, which was music to my ears, because I always replayed the games for the gameplay, not the story, which was a one-and-done deal for me.

Cue MGSV and one of my personal GOATs.

This is, like, my exact situation. I wasn't even following MGSV outside of watching the trailers. I've always been interested in the stories of these games but not the way they're told, and MGS4 was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. More like the anvil that broke its back. Now to be clear, I have a lot of affection for MGS4, and it has some truly great moments, but I have to cringe through so much of it, if I'm not struggling to stay awake.

So I wasn't planning to pick up MGSV. Not right away, at least. But then by pure chance I got hooked on Quiet's Theme, and the review hype got to me, and by degrees I started thinking, "Maybe I should check out Ground Zeroes." And so I did. And I was so impressed by the incredible gameplay and the more minimalist approach to storytelling that I picked up MGSV and the guide on Day One.

And like you, TPP is now one of my favorite games ever.

it was really mean

I must've missed the first spoiler thread. It's sad to hear people were mean to each other over a game. These things should unite us, not divide us. Our opinions can differ, but we should at least appreciate that we were all drawn to this same series.

 

[Berserking Guts]

Found my first S+ in the field.

 

[Berserker976]

PS I don't think the story lost focus because of the open world. I don't think it's the open world's fault. Plenty of open worlds have great, focussed stories. MGSV's story lost focus because it just wasn't a priority like the previous games. (Also imo the stories were always fairly unfocused, they were just loud and intense.)

I think a big part of why MGSV's story was so unfocused was because on a purely mechanical level, it is fragmented.... and then fragmented again for good measure.

In MGS games it used to be that you were either in gameplay, or in a cutscene/codec until you got to the end of the game, there was a flow to it.

In MGSV you have your pre-mission briefing, the helicopter ride in, a looooong stretch of gameplay, then maybe a cutscene or debriefing, credits, then you load into the ACC and have to navigate a menu to get to any new important cassette tapes, listen to those, go back to your mission menu and select the next one, or if you're in chapter 2 you load into a random side op, etc. etc. repeat until the next mission or cutscene randomly pops up.

No flow.

 

[Neiteio]

Found my first S+ in the field.

 

[brau]

I accept that. I would definitely do things differently. However, I don't think these aspects break the game at all. I think it's a truly great game despite these issues.

Also, playing on PC is amazing because you can mod any mission to be Subsistence variant.

And guess what? It works fine. It forces you to do shit with far more intelligence and care.

Really boggles the mind why they didn't make it optional across the board.

Agreed. i don't know why they didn't have the option of hard mode, extreme mode and subsistence mode for all missions. GZ had done it.

And i agree that the game needed more variety in objectives here and there. Even in the side ops. I also think it would've been more interesting to stumble into missions AND side ops without looking for them.

I dunno,just make hte game more organic. I have a few posts describing the things i am talking about. Like not having the game do the assault the helmets for no helmets. Those are things i would rather do in the game.

Also, i think the auto regen takes away the risk of the game. Doesn't amtter if you are not careful, you get into a firefight just go guns blazing because you can just hide until it refills up and you are good to keep on going. There is no real consideration for how thoughtful you need to be.

Fulton just takes away any threat.

Marking is debatable.

Buddy system just makes the game so easy.

Christ thank god, that post was intense to read, haha!

ScreamingMeat and i understand each other. we are both fans of Ennio. Also Ubik. we have a lot in common

 

[WrenchNinja]

The first thread wasn't mean at all. It's not really any different from the following two threads in discourse. There was just more depression and anger at the game.

 

[SJRB]

Found my first S+ in the field.

The legion of Boaster trolls claim another victim.


It is my true belief that there's one mercenary army to surpass even Diamond Dogs - Bauxite Boasters. At least three members infiltrated each outpost in Afghanistan and Africa.

 

[Timeaisis]

How does Code Talker get on top of the Command Platform tower with his wheelchair anyway?

Parasites lift him up and fly him over to it.

 

[A-V-B]

It's not the fall of anyone though. Throughout the whole game, you just do consistently heroic deeds, save countless lives and always show mercy. There aren't really any characters in this game, and the few ones that do show some personality, like Miller, go through absolutely no change at all through all the various (scattered, meandering and boring) events of the game. Miller is pissed off and wants revenge at the start, and he's pissed off and wants revenge at the end. The only difference is in the post-credits voiceover when the target of his lust for revenge shifts to someone else, but he just hits on the exact same note over and over again throughout the game. This is the most well developed character in the game.

I don't know who the hell this Southern guy is who is named after Revolver Ocelot.

I will say this! This game is an interesting failure. It isn't just bad, it's really confusing as to why they made the choices that make it bad. A lot of it seems intentional, including simple gameplay nuisances like having to wait for the chopper at the start of every mission and having cassettes buried in menus so you can't start and stop them easily during gameplay.

It's just a really weird mess. A mix of unique failures and mundane successes.

Huey was a success, I think.

But... it would've been nicer if more characters had arcs. I'm gonna throw out some quick fan garbage here as an example of how characters could've changed across the story.

What if instead of Eli hating BB right off the bat, he instead

Spoiler

had grown to admire the legendary survivor from afar, and upon meeting him, actually wanted to impress Big Boss? What if they proceed to train together, and build a raport, with Eli eventually going out into the field? Meanwhile BB is teaching Eli about Cypher and the Philosophers, and sharing his dream of a world of soldiers without borders. Just for this period in time, BB believes he might be atoning for losing Paz and Chico, that there may yet be hope.

But this is merely the ray of light before the fall.

As all the trauma from BB's past psychologically piles up in the present, combined with several catastrophic mission failures after the defeat of Skull Face, BB has a mental break, and punches the proverbial gas into villainy land.

One symptom of the break is taking out his disappointment on his men in ways physical and mental. This includes Eli. Soon he no longer considers Eli - or any of the progeny of Les Enfants Terribles - to be "his," though this would have to be an idea in his mind beforehand so it could grow. In Big Boss's book, Eli is now just a soldier, as disposable as the other men and women on Motherbase. It's only fair. That's the way the world works.

And as BB becomes more antagonistic towards Eli, you'd have scenes like BB telling Eli he's flawed - an imperfect clone - and received fewer of the genes that made him a great soldier like Big Boss. Which could also be cool because now Big Boss is buying into his own bullshit. He's becoming lost in the legend. How could this failed soldier be the legend's son?

Eli pretends to not be affected, but deep down Big Boss is still the only adult he's ever respected. This steady alienation would in turn develop Eli's character. Eli's feelings break down in stages: first into confusion, then into a boundless desire to get back the relationship they once had by taking big risks and proving his worth.

And then ending in bitter hatred.

During one of BB's own missions that Eli has been assigned to as a "last chance," and one that's quickly going to hell, Eli is surrounded on all sides after an alarm is tripped. It's unclear if BB or Eli are at fault, but it's Eli who takes the heat. The landing zone is too hot for Peqoud to make an extraction, and Big Boss, on the other side of the enemy base, is unable to drop his own objective.

But Big Boss can still choose to sacrifice Eli to prevent the mission's abject failure. He can call in an artillery strike to keep the enemy from retrieving a game-changing piece of intel that Eli has. And Big Boss comes this close to succeeding. He orders the strike. A couple of his men are insubordinate, but others begrudgingly step in to pull the trigger.

Except that it's foiled when another extremely talented member of Motherbase who has been growing worried for Big Boss's mental health and has tracked him from the shadows - someone like Gray Fox - miraculously rescues Eli on the battlefield. Eli, at the soldier's side, watches as the artillery lands where he would have been.

Eli returns to Motherbase, and it's clear. BB has now completely pushed his son away. BB couldn't even comprehend a rescue op after the mission. He went for the kill. Big Boss tries to justify it, that this vital intelligence would've been in Zero's hands instead of his, there would've been no taking it back. But Eli's not buying it. Once, he would've died for his family. Now he has no family but the one he's built himself.

This culminates with Eli deciding to rebel. As in MGSV, he bands together with his young brothers-in-arms and absconds from Motherbase, with a final violent confrontation with Big Boss. Eli, now Liquid Snake -- on the long path to Shadow Moses.

This would also lead to Big Boss giving Ocelot the mission to track Liquid down and continue guiding the boy under the guise of Ocelot having mutinied too. As much as BB believes Liquid to be inferior, he still realizes how dangerous even a Big Boss-lite is out in the wild, unchecked. Ocelot eventually succeeds. He covertly guides Liquid, who now works in the field for the British SAS.

And of course, Kaz and Big Boss find another capable soldier to groom. A familiar looking young man, ex-Green Beret... now working for FOXHOUND. Big Boss sees the superior clone. No more "sons". It's all business. And Kaz sees the one to send Big Boss to Hell. For him it's all personal. Cue MG1.

Or something like that. Just a bit of character development. Obviously you'd have to write this thing and then put it through Da' Works with multiple drafts.

Okay, end rambling.

 

[brau]

Parasites lift him up and fly him over to it.

you obviously get it.

 

[SomTervo]

Found my first S+ in the field.

Dat orange

The second you see it, you know. You just know you're not stopping until you've got that guy.

This is, like, my exact situation. I wasn't even following MGSV outside of watching the trailers. I've always been interested in the stories of these games but not the way they're told, and MGS4 was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. More like the anvil that broke its back. Now to be clear, I have a lot of affection for MGS4, and it has some truly great moments, but I have to cringe through so much of it, if I'm not struggling to stay awake.

So I wasn't planning to pick up MGSV. Not right away, at least. But then by pure chance I got hooked on Quiet's Theme, and the review hype got to me, and by degrees I started thinking, "Maybe I should check out Ground Zeroes." And so I did. And I was so impressed by the incredible gameplay and the more minimalist approach to storytelling that I picked up MGSV and the guide on Day One.

And like you, TPP is now one of my favorite games ever.


I must've missed the first spoiler thread. It's sad to hear people were mean to each other over a game. These things should unite us, not divide us. Our opinions can differ, but we should at least appreciate that we were all drawn to this same series.

Legend. I'm surprised there are so many MGS4 defenders. The gameplay is god-tier, but the experience is fucking horrible.

Absolutely re amicable discussion on a site like this. I think many were genuinely upset about how the story turned out.

I think a big part of why MGSV's story was so unfocused was because on a purely mechanical level, it is fragmented.... and then fragmented again for good measure.

In MGS games it used to be that you were either in gameplay, or in a cutscene/codec until you got to the end of the game, there was a flow to it.

In MGSV you have your pre-mission briefing, the helicopter ride in, a looooong stretch of gameplay, then maybe a cutscene or debriefing, credits, then you load into the ACC and have to navigate a menu to get to any new important cassette tapes, listen to those, go back to your mission menu and select the next one, or if you're in chapter 2 you load into a random side op, etc. etc. repeat until the next mission or cutscene randomly pops up.

No flow.

See, I think if they gave you more deployment options, there would be far less of an issue. Eg not just helicopter. Underwater deployment, BASE drop deployment, etc. Like MGS1-3.

The way I see it, in MGS1-3:

> you watched a cutscene setting the backstory
> you watched a cutscene of Snake deploying in a cool way
> you watched a cutscene of him arriving
> you watched a CODEC call of him briefing more
> watch a cutscene of him scanning the area
> you played the infiltration itself until a new area/mechanic/character/story beat (one every 20-30 minutes usually)
> then cutscene
> you played a bit of the exfiltration
> watch cutscene of climax
> watch cutscene of actual exfiltration

In MGSV:

> you watched (and played bits of) a cutscene setting the backstory
> you watched a cutscene of Snake deploying in a cool way
> you played him arriving
> you played him getting briefing (tapes)
> you played him scanning the area
> you played the infiltration from deployment all the way into the target without any cutscenes
> perhaps watched a cutscene in a story mission here, but probably not
> you played the exfiltration all the way out of the target
> you played the climax
> you played the actual exfiltration

The above x1000 instead of just x2 (MGS1-3), x5 (MGS4) or xN (Peace Walker). When you quantify the game this way, it sort of is the ultimate MGS game. Within MGSV is multiple MGS1-4 adventures, contained in its huge structure.

I suppose the argument is that by making so much of the MGS traditional pacing, the impact was lost overall. I still love it, MGSV is basically a "make your own MGS game" generator for me. Land somewhere, pretend I'm Solid Snake, infiltrate like shit and have a great adventure.

 

[Neiteio]

See, I think if they gave you more deployment options, there would be far less of an issue. Eg not just helicopter. Underwater deployment, BASE drop deployment, etc. Like MGS1-3.

The way I see it, in MGS1-3:

> you watched a cutscene setting the backstory
> you watched a cutscene of Snake deploying in a cool way
> you watched a cutscene of him arriving
> you watched a CODEC call of him briefing more
> watch a cutscene of him scanning the area
> you played the infiltration itself until a new area/mechanic/character/story beat (one every 20-30 minutes usually)
> then cutscene
> you played a bit of the exfiltration
> watch cutscene of climax
> watch cutscene of actual exfiltration

In MGSV:

> you watched (and played bits of) a cutscene setting the backstory
> you watched a cutscene of Snake deploying in a cool way
> you played him arriving
> you played him getting briefing (tapes)
> you played him scanning the area
> you played the infiltration from deployment all the way into the target without any cutscenes
> perhaps watched a cutscene in a story mission here, but probably not
> you played the exfiltration all the way out of the target
> you played the climax
> you played the actual exfiltration

The above x1000 instead of just x2 (MGS1-3), x5 (MGS4) or xN (Peace Walker). When you quantify the game this way, it sort of is the ultimate MGS game. Within MGSV is multiple MGS1-4 adventures, contained in its huge structure.

I suppose the argument is that by making so much of the MGS traditional pacing, the impact was lost overall. I still love it, MGSV is basically a "make your own MGS game" generator for me. Land somewhere, pretend I'm Solid Snake, infiltrate like shit and have a great adventure.

Nailed it.

It depresses me that the series is over just as they finally get the gameplay right and make the exposition less intrusive.

 

[real_slime]

Huey was a success, I think.

But... it would've been nicer if more characters had arcs. I'm gonna throw out some quick fan garbage here as an example of how characters could've changed across the story.

What if instead of Eli hating BB right off the bat, he instead

Spoiler

had grown to admire the legendary survivor from afar, and upon meeting him, actually wanted to impress Big Boss? What if they proceed to train together, and build a raport, with Eli eventually going out into the field? Meanwhile BB is teaching Eli about Cypher and the Philosophers, and sharing his dream of a world of soldiers without borders. Just for this period in time, BB believes he might be atoning for losing Paz and Chico, that there may yet be hope.

But this is merely the ray of light before the fall.

As all the trauma from BB's past psychologically piles up in the present, combined with several catastrophic mission failures after the defeat of Skull Face, BB has a mental break, and punches the proverbial gas into villainy land.

One symptom of the break is taking out his disappointment on his men in ways physical and mental. This includes Eli. Soon he no longer considers Eli - or any of the progeny of Les Enfants Terribles - to be "his," though this would have to be an idea in his mind beforehand so it could grow. In Big Boss's book, Eli is now just a soldier, as disposable as the other men and women on Motherbase. It's only fair. That's the way the world works.

And as BB becomes more antagonistic towards Eli, you'd have scenes like BB telling Eli he's flawed - an imperfect clone - and received fewer of the genes that made him a great soldier like Big Boss. Which could also be cool because now Big Boss is buying into his own bullshit. He's becoming lost in the legend. How could this failed soldier be the legend's son?

Eli pretends to not be affected, but deep down Big Boss is still the only adult he's ever respected. This steady alienation would in turn develop Eli's character. Eli's feelings break down in stages: first into confusion, then into a boundless desire to get back the relationship they once had by taking big risks and proving his worth.

And then ending in bitter hatred.

During one of BB's own missions that Eli has been assigned to as a "last chance," and one that's quickly going to hell, Eli is surrounded on all sides after an alarm is tripped. It's unclear if BB or Eli are at fault, but it's Eli who takes the heat. The landing zone is too hot for Peqoud to make an extraction, and Big Boss, on the other side of the enemy base, is unable to drop his own objective.

But Big Boss can still choose to sacrifice Eli to prevent the mission's abject failure. He can call in an artillery strike to keep the enemy from retrieving a game-changing piece of intel that Eli has. And Big Boss comes this close to succeeding. He orders the strike. A couple of his men are insubordinate, but others begrudgingly step in to pull the trigger.

Except that it's foiled when another extremely talented member of Motherbase who has been growing worried for Big Boss's mental health and has tracked him from the shadows - someone like Gray Fox - miraculously rescues Eli on the battlefield. Eli, at the soldier's side, watches as the artillery lands where he would have been.

Eli returns to Motherbase, and it's clear. BB has now completely pushed his son away. BB couldn't even comprehend a rescue op after the mission. He went for the kill. Big Boss tries to justify it, that this vital intelligence would've been in Zero's hands instead of his, there would've been no taking it back. But Eli's not buying it. Once, he would've died for his family. Now he has no family but the one he's built himself.

This culminates with Eli deciding to rebel. As in MGSV, he bands together with his young brothers-in-arms and absconds from Motherbase, with a final violent confrontation with Big Boss. Eli, now Liquid Snake -- on the long path to Shadow Moses.

This would also lead to Big Boss giving Ocelot the mission to track Liquid down and continue guiding the boy under the guise of Ocelot having mutinied too. As much as BB believes Liquid to be inferior, he still realizes how dangerous even a Big Boss-lite is out in the wild, unchecked. Ocelot eventually succeeds. He covertly guides Liquid, who now works in the field for the British SAS.

And of course, Kaz and Big Boss find another capable soldier to groom. A familiar looking young man, ex-Green Beret... now working for FOXHOUND. Big Boss sees the superior clone. No more "sons". It's all business. And Kaz sees the one to send Big Boss to Hell. For him it's all personal. Cue MG1.

Or something like that. Just a bit of character development. Obviously you'd have to write this thing and then put it through Da' Works with multiple drafts.

Okay, end rambling.

I mean, you just outwrote this entire game. But it all presupposed that you are actually playing as Big Boss and not the ineffectual cipher Venom Snake.

 

[Screaming Meat]

The way I see it, in MGS1-3:

> you watched a cutscene setting the backstory
> you watched a cutscene of Snake deploying in a cool way
> you watched a cutscene of him arriving
> you watched a CODEC call of him briefing more
> watch a cutscene of him scanning the area
> you played the infiltration itself until a new area/mechanic/character/story beat (one every 20-30 minutes usually)
> then cutscene
> you played a bit of the exfiltration
> watch cutscene of climax
> watch cutscene of actual exfiltration

In MGSV:

> you watched (and played bits of) a cutscene setting the backstory
> you watched a cutscene of Snake deploying in a cool way
> you played him arriving
> you played him getting briefing (tapes)
> you played him scanning the area
> you played the infiltration from deployment all the way into the target without any cutscenes
> perhaps watched a cutscene in a story mission here, but probably not
> you played the exfiltration all the way out of the target
> you played the climax
> you played the actual exfiltration

The above x1000 instead of just x2 (MGS1-3), x5 (MGS4) or xN (Peace Walker). When you quantify the game this way, it sort of is the ultimate MGS game. Within MGSV is multiple MGS1-4 adventures, contained in its huge structure.

I suppose the argument is that by making so much of the MGS traditional pacing, the impact was lost overall. I still love it, MGSV is basically a "make your own MGS game" generator for me. Land somewhere, pretend I'm Solid Snake, infiltrate like shit and have a great adventure.

Exactly!

To me, the bulk of the missions are a mini-Metal Gear narrative, a Tanker Chapter of varying quality and narrative importance. Side OP's are VR Mission writ large. I don't think the open world, agency-centric design makes it inherently unfocused because, well, it really isn't open world.

 

[heringer]

Except he did it, not Ubisoft with Splinter Cell, not any indie with a 2D game, not anyone. It's hard not to call it brilliance when he's the one consistently getting there first.

Dude practically created the stealth genre in 1987, released a game with a meaningful modern story in 1990, pioneered cinematic storytelling in 1998, dude pushed for meta-commentary in games in 2001, completely revamped the basics of the stealth genre in 2004, revolutionized character locomotion and ended the story of a franchise in 2008, brought AAA stealth gameplay and storytelling to the PSP in 2010 and now stealth in an open, organic world.

Your will to hate is blinding you.

What other franchises break new ground like Metal Gear does? Most games don't even try.

I dunno about the bolded. In what way do you mean that? In terms of stealth Splinter Cell was so far ahead of MGS3 (especially after Chaos Theory) it's not even funny. In terms of gameplay, MGS only surpassed Splinter Cell with MGS4. I think the bolded makes much more sense for MGSV than 3.

 

[Berserker976]

it sort of is the ultimate MGS game

Haha! Ultimate stealth action game? Maybe. Ultimate MGS game? Nononono.

The problem with your scenario is that although all of the components are more or less there for every mission, they're essentially bite-sized. Infiltrating the Mfinda Oilfield is no Operation Snake Eater.

That's not to say that I didn't enjoy infiltrating places in these missions, but to compare each location in MGSV to the entirety of Shadow Moses or the Big Shell is madness.

 

[real_slime]

Haha! Ultimate stealth action game? Maybe. Ultimate MGS game? Nononono.

The problem with your scenario is that although all of the components are more or less there for every mission, they're essentially bite-sized. Infiltrating the Mfinda Oilfield is no Operation Snake Eater.

That's not to say that I didn't enjoy infiltrating places in these missions, but to compare each location in MGSV to the entirety of Shadow Moses or the Big Shell is madness.

Some of the areas in TPP are comparable in virtual size obviously, that's probably what people mean. But you're talking a truckload of bread vs a balanced and tasty meal in terms of quality.

I guess people will think that's too harsh.

 

[-Deimos]

Found my first S+ in the field.