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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO

Screaming Meat, I love ya fella, but I think this is a far too intelligent interpretation of MGSV and that particular quote. This would be a brilliant idea to explore, but Kojima isn't capable of this level of depth.

The social taboo Kojima was referring to was probably Quiet.
Quiet is just a boobly woman in a swimsuit who might share a optional 15-second fully clothed shower. A rerun of Connery-era James Bond at 6pm on cable tv pushes more boundaries than that.

I want to say he was probably referring to something that wasn't even implied in the finished game, but the closest candidate might be chapter 51 letting you seemingly shoot a child (that you knew wasn't going to actually die ahead of time).

Either that or acknowledging the existence of child soldiers despite heroically rescuing them, or taking a gentle stance on western imperialism that is about as controversial as your average textbook dryly talking about the Falkland Islands.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I was talking about both. He uses characters to deliver these types of messages, and the message in MGS2 is similarly, or perhaps even more provocative than the one in MGSV.

What you quoted was what I said in reference to you suggesting that having Skullface deliver the crux of the theme voids its (potential) status as a taboo, hence "it doesn't matter who says it". You're making an ancillary argument that is really beside the point.

I don't see why presenting English as villainous in MGSV is any more controversial than presenting the American government as manipulative asshole villains in MGS3.

Is that all you think MGSV is saying, that the English Language is "villainous"? Come on, man, that's pretty reductionist thinking.

Either that or acknowledging the existence of child soldiers despite heroically rescuing them, or taking a gentle stance on western imperialism that is about as controversial as your average textbook dryly talking about the Falkland Islands.

Yeah, it can certainly be read as a metaphor for cultural hegemony but I don't think it's all that gentle. There are very clear references to Sapir-Whorf. The game heavily implies that the foundations of Western thought itself are toxic. That's hardly a soft stance to take and not one I've seen in much media outside of philosophical/sociological literature. Definitely not a subject I've seen a game tackle.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
The social taboo is about the hamburgers and how the chemicals are good.

71937-jurassic-park-mother-of-god-gi-z6uX.gif
 

Xiraiya

Member
The social taboo is about the hamburgers and how the chemicals are good.
The social taboo is about the effects of disappointment and how one can translate the theme of a game into a real feeling that the player feels by taking risks such as deliberately hamstringing the game.
 
What you quoted was what I said in reference to you suggesting that having Skullface deliver the crux of the theme voids its (potential) status as a taboo, hence "it doesn't matter who says it". You're making an ancillary argument that is really beside the point.



Is that all you think MGSV is saying, that the English Language is "villainous"? Come on, man, that's pretty reductionist thinking.

Dude, come on. No one is offended by this idea. It's not like it's something that would be considered scandalous. In contrast, look at the reaction to the GZ stuff. Doesn't it make way more sense that the thing that actually sparked some outrage and disgust was the thing he was referring to when referencing taboos, and not some complex meditation on English being parasitic?
 

Bossun

Member
Guys, I think I might have lost the final twist of the game...

Oh no wait it was spoiled in the prologue of the game. I had called that shit the moment the doctor said "Choose a new appearance" and yet you still end up playing big boss.

I was like " Yup you're definitively not big boss, you've got switched".

But that's still a minor annoyance compared to how shitty everything is mostly is in this game.
 

Cyborg

Member
So I re-captured Huey. Whaaat? Anyone noticed this?

Edit: I finished the game, he was sent away. But after 10 side-ops he is back
 
oh.. interesting... he just came back? no cutscene or nothing? this on pc?

I'd assume its so you get back his stats for your R&D team... I'd still throw him off the platform if I could :p

Also it has been a while since that $80 million number popped up, was that supposed to include the fox engine's development as well? If so, solid stuff for first day sales, I can't wait to see how much this ends up selling, what with all this hubbub about FOB insurance.
 

Erigu

Member
So I re-captured Huey. Whaaat? Anyone noticed this?
Edit: I finished the game, he was sent away. But after 10 side-ops he is back
The game is a bit weird that way: Huey tends to randomly go back and be sent away again (since the recent patch? not sure)..
 

Xiraiya

Member
Something is confusing me, so I was looking up Optional Objectives for Voices and on Primergames saw this.

Objectives

Extract Shabani (Mandatory).
Successfully hit the floating boy with an attack (Optional).
Fight off the Man on Fire (Optional).
Pinpoint the route to Ngumba Industrial Zone, West Guard Post from an intel file (Optional).
Extract an African wild dog near Ngumba Industrial Zone, West Guard Post (Optional).
Extract the prisoner at Munoko ya Nioka Station (Optional).
Listen to the conversation about the “bodies at Munoko ya Nioka Station” (Optional).
I'm pretty goddamn sure there is no prisoner in that mission, I've done it a handful of times and even fulton'ed every guard at least once, it's definitely not listed in the objectives as it says 6/6 for me.
Didn't they do the official guide? Oh wait hmm... I guess I'm confusing them.


Guys, I think I might have lost the final twist of the game...

Oh no wait it was spoiled in the prologue of the game. I had called that shit the moment the doctor said "Choose a new appearance" and yet you still end up playing big boss.

I was like " Yup you're definitively not big boss, you've got switched".

But that's still a minor annoyance compared to how shitty everything is mostly is in this game.
The first real trailer had the song "Not Your Kind Of People".
I don't think it was meant to be that secretive to the player, Kojima is smarter than that at least.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
The first real trailer had the song "Not Your Kind Of People".
I don't think it was meant to be that secretive to the player, Kojima is smarter than that at least.

Also, the "What about him?" cutscene has been shown multiple times.
 

Xiraiya

Member
Also, the "What about him?" cutscene has been shown multiple times.

To be fair, Kojima made that confusing by saying he liked to think it was him watching over his creations, but yeah that was also obvious.

Also people never point this out, but Big Boss and Venom BOTH have two different kinds of shrapnel in the trailers, well actually they do but the color differences is what I never see mentioned.
"Venom" with the mullet (Big Boss) on the Motorbike has White Shrapnel in a different position above his eye, I thought that stuff was super weird.
 

kotor22

Member
He meant it was him, as in he named his avatar after himself and made it look like himself. Damn... Then he realized "o wait im actually in this game already... lol" :)
 
Finally putting this game down after 55 hours.

Got the Truth ending and I am calling it a day.


A fun game but yeah... so many missed opportunities. I have to imagine stuff like Venom's hallucinations where gonna be a big part of the game at one point but due to reasons only the Paz stuff made it in.

Plus how did they not do more with Mantis? I dug his presence in the game but I have to imagine they also had more stuff planned as a conclusion to his use in the game that got cut along with Mission 51.
 

Golnei

Member
Plus how did they not do more with Mantis? I dug his presence in the game but I have to imagine they also had more stuff planned as a conclusion to his use in the game that got cut along with Mission 51.

Mantis really was a wasted opportunity. We're given a little bit of his backstory in 1, but instead of expanding on that to flesh out his characterisation and take advantage of the ambiguous motivations he had in his first appearance, he's not allowed to be anything other than a floating deus ex machina. I wouldn't have wanted him to break out into a 30-minute monologue delivered by a stilted child actor trying and failing to speak Russian, but a little more direct characterisation would have gone a long way.

It wouldn't have even needed to be verbal or expository - a hallucination/illusion sequence where you're subjected to manifestations of his psyche compounded with indistinct memories of the hospital could have provided you with a sense of his character and hinted at some of the unknown parts of his backstory.
 

Johndoey

Banned
What you quoted was what I said in reference to you suggesting that having Skullface deliver the crux of the theme voids its (potential) status as a taboo, hence "it doesn't matter who says it". You're making an ancillary argument that is really beside the point.



Is that all you think MGSV is saying, that the English Language is "villainous"? Come on, man, that's pretty reductionist thinking.



Yeah, it can certainly be read as a metaphor for cultural hegemony but I don't think it's all that gentle. There are very clear references to Sapir-Whorf. The game heavily implies that the foundations of Western thought itself are toxic. That's hardly a soft stance to take and not one I've seen in much media outside of philosophical/sociological literature. Definitely not a subject I've seen a game tackle.

Your giving Kojima way too much credit here. I'm sure the taboo thing was probably in regard to the whole "this is basically ethnic cleansing" but it wasn't some subversive take that to the concept of western culture and its effects on the world. It was just generic evil guy "I hate [insert group] using [insert weapon] I will take my final vengeance, mwahahaha" shtick no great deal of introspective thought went into the language parasites. This games overall statement on Superpowers exerting pressure on weaker nations for ultimately petty and pointless reasons is "its bad and sucks", Ocelot chimes in occasionally to basically say "The U.S and USSR are big meanies, Snake".
 

MNC

Member
To be fair, Kojima made that confusing by saying he liked to think it was him watching over his creations, but yeah that was also obvious.

Also people never point this out, but Big Boss and Venom BOTH have two different kinds of shrapnel in the trailers, well actually they do but the color differences is what I never see mentioned.
"Venom" with the mullet (Big Boss) on the Motorbike has White Shrapnel in a different position above his eye, I thought that stuff was super weird.
Early in development etc. "Big Boss" also has a robot arm on the motor cycle scene there.
 

Cyborg

Member
So I had a couple of friends over so I told them I have finished MGS5. They asked me how were the epic boss fights. I started telling them and then realized there is only one real boss in the game :S Metal Gear.

Playing through the game I didnt realize this but aside the Metal Gear and Quiet I cant remember I have fought a boss in this game. Yet another fck up :(
 
So I had a couple of friends over so I told them I have finished MGS5. They asked me how were the epic boss fights. I started telling them and then realized there is only one real boss in the game :S Metal Gear.

Playing through the game I didnt realize this but aside the Metal Gear and Quiet I cant remember I have fought a boss in this game. Yet another fck up :(

Yeah this is definitely a major point in the game imo being a 'good game but bad Metal Gear game'.
The series is known for having some of the best boss fights in gaming so lacking them just sucks :(
 

Joeku

Member
I myself concluded it to be because we know it's done. No more further plot developments by Kojima.

Well, that and the twist weirdly muddles things rather than recontextualizes them in a fun way while at the same time making the whole MGSV experience sorta pointless, but not in a cool American Psycho way.
 
I myself concluded it to be because we know it's done. No more further plot developments by Kojima.

Yeah this is big. Previously when there's a big twist at the end it just makes you excited to see where it goes in the sequel.

Imagine how people would feel about the twist if Kojima was still at Konami and teasing about being interested in possibly remaking the original Metal Gear with the current plot.

What could have been...
 

Haunted

Member
So I had a couple of friends over so I told them I have finished MGS5. They asked me how were the epic boss fights. I started telling them and then realized there is only one real boss in the game :S Metal Gear.

Playing through the game I didnt realize this but aside the Metal Gear and Quiet I cant remember I have fought a boss in this game. Yet another fck up :(
Skulls (Mission 1)
Skulls (Mission 6)
Quiet
Skulls (Mission 16)
Man on Fire
Skulls Snipers
Skulls (Mission 29)
Sahelanthropus


How do you get episode 51 ? Finish all side ops ?
No, Mission 51 did not make it into the game, it was cut and shelved at some point during development. You can see a video of it (cobbled together from concept art and work-in-progress cutscene drafts) on the collector's edition or on Youtube.

There's no reward for finishing all the sideops.
 

Golnei

Member
I would have been fine with the twist as it were presented had they not removed the more thematically rich original art used on the final timeline and replaced it with a stock image of the Outer Heaven logo on its own.


Such a powerful character dynamic.

So I had a couple of friends over so I told them I have finished MGS5. They asked me how were the epic boss fights. I started telling them and then realized there is only one real boss in the game :S Metal Gear.

Playing through the game I didnt realize this but aside the Metal Gear and Quiet I cant remember I have fought a boss in this game. Yet another fck up :(

The Skull Snipers were a pretty fun encounter as well, but I wouldn't really consider them more than a Quiet retread. It is a shame how badly they handled that aspect of the game - Quiet herself is a decent warmup/tutorial boss, Sahelanthropus is fun enough compared to other mechs in the series; and the Skull Unit are okay if you view them as midbosses/more powerful regular enemies in the vein of the Tengus, FROGs and Ocelot Unit rather than replacements for bosses; but there's nothing else there at all for unique boss enemies, save for the Man on Fire; which isn't really much of a fight at all, just a series of setpieces.

I'd take it over Peace Walker's mechs; but it's definitely still a low point in that regard compared to the rest of the series. Yet another reason why the Metal Gear series' ultimate fate is so tragic is that we'll never get to see a game with a full set of bosses built around the amount of freedom and options the player has in V. I can't imagine the Big Boss pachislot machine improving much in that regard...

Imagine how people would feel about the twist if Kojima was still at Konami and teasing about being interested in possibly remaking the original Metal Gear with the current plot.

What could have been...

I wouldn't have found it all that hard to believe if that was his plan for the future of the series - he's previously lamented how hard it was to hand off a project to his staff; so merely providing oversight on a remake of MG1 and/or 2 would have been the perfect situation, while he worked on Silent Hills. The presence of an original scenario to work from and MGSV's fantastic gameplay base would have left very little room for a MGSR-esque disaster.
 
No, Mission 51 did not make it into the game, it was cut and shelved at some point during development. You can see a video of it (cobbled together from concept art and work-in-progress cutscene drafts) on the collector's edition or on Youtube.

There's no reward for finishing all the sideops.

But in the chapter 2 prologue video they showed a small clip of paz and quiet going somewhere, what about that.
 

Haunted

Member
But in the chapter 2 prologue video they showed a small clip of paz and quiet going somewhere, what about that.
I don't think there's a scene like that with both of them together.

There are cutscenes with Quiet and cutscenes with Paz.

Quiet's story is wrapped up in Mission 45, while Paz's story is wrapped up in the sidequest that's completed by doing all the "extract the wandering mother base soldiers" sideops and visiting her 10 separate times on the medical platform.
 
Kinda cross posting here...

I thought it was Child Soldiers.

Then I thought it was because he sort of touched on the 'AIDS is man made' conspiracy theory, but I don't that is all that taboo.

Now I think it is the fact that he is talking about the English Language as a parasite, as analogous with globalization and American imperialism, and as a destroyer of civilisations and cultures. Like, Code Talker and Skull Face go all out in slamming it. That's a pretty bold statement for a video game to make, I think, and I can understand why someone from Japan might think that a taboo subject.

He is unambiguously saying that the English language's dominance is a cultural dead end. He equates thinking and our understanding of the world with language (a la Sapir-Whorf) and, in those terms, he is basically attacking the foundations of Western Thought and equating it with a parasite.

There is some irony then that this was the game meant to appeal to more Western, English-Speaking audiences.

This is exactly what I got out of it.

And I think irony regarding the gameplay was intentional. Or rather a thing that ties the message to the game design.
 

Ratrat

Member
Skulls (Mission 1)
Skulls (Mission 6)
Quiet
Skulls (Mission 16)
Man on Fire
Skulls Snipers
Skulls (Mission 29)
Sahelanthropus


No, Mission 51 did not make it into the game, it was cut and shelved at some point during development. You can see a video of it (cobbled together from concept art and work-in-progress cutscene drafts) on the collector's edition or on Youtube.

There's no reward for finishing all the sideops.
The two Eli fights are closer to boss battles than Man on Fire.
 
I enjoyed the boss fights... a lot, even. But more in a side boss sort of way. Game has some great side bosses but I wish it had more of a Cobra Unit equivalent, and I mean that in terms of creating cool characters as much as cool gameplay.

Man on Fire had awesome potential after Missions 1 and 20, but was wasted in what feels like just poor game production management. Maybe it would have worked out in a 3 Chapter story, hell even a fully-fledged 2nd chapter, but not with 1.5 chapters.
 
I don't think there's a scene like that with both of them together.

There are cutscenes with Quiet and cutscenes with Paz.

Quiet's story is wrapped up in Mission 45, while Paz's story is wrapped up in the sidequest that's completed by doing all the "extract the wandering mother base soldiers" sideops and visiting her 10 separate times on the medical platform.

Got it boss !

It sucks I missed like 800 pages of t-whoo jokes. You know, until like 20 episodes in, I thought kojima has finally come up with a more realistic story for mgs and somehow will repair the damage done by mgs4..boy oh boy.

I got so many questions, I don't even know where to start. Wolbachia, metal archaea, emmerich, phantom snake...

I myself concluded it to be because we know it's done. No more further plot developments by Kojima.

I know what's it for me. It's like snake taking of his mask and turning out of raiden in mgs3's ending but after I have spent 100 hours extracting containers and shit. It all just feels pointless. But at least the real big boss isn't dead, for a while I thought that was possible, that know body knows this other than the doctor and ahab.
 
The two Eli fights are closer to boss battles than Man on Fire.
both of them probably vary of a lot... Eli's first fight can be a pretty darn fun CQQ match. but my first time, I just walked about while he patrolling, smacked him with a few rubber bullets and then Quiet dropped him with a single sniper tranq ;p zero dialogue or scene. totally different experience than if you approach him when he's at his throne and then get all the cqc scenes. man of fire maybe the same way, varying on if you just zap him once and bum rush the heli, or actively try lure him to the water towers or something because you think you have to do more than than actually required.
 

Golnei

Member
The two Eli fights are closer to boss battles than Man on Fire.

I keep forgetting Eli's fights exist, but they really are more of a boss than the Man on Fire. Actually fighting him was such a massive anticlimax - after being built up so heavily and being the focus of the entire prologue; you're presented with a puzzle boss who barely counts as a puzzle or a boss. Even aside from how easy it is to get past him, it's particularly sad that given all the abilities they'd shown off in in both MGS3 and earlier in V, he displays a smaller range of attacks and is much less of a threat overall than even his boss battle in 3.

You know, until like 20 episodes in, I thought kojima has finally come up with a more realistic story for mgs and somehow will repair the damage done by mgs4..boy oh boy.

At least he made Zero's role in the entire mess a little less contrived, I thought his characterisation here made the retcon that placed him as the founder of Cipher and the Patriots less incongruous.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Dude, come on. No one is offended by this idea. It's not like it's something that would be considered scandalous. In contrast, look at the reaction to the GZ stuff. Doesn't it make way more sense that the thing that actually sparked some outrage and disgust was the thing he was referring to when referencing taboos, and not some complex meditation on English being parasitic?

Certainly does when you put it like that! :D I’m not saying you’re wrong, either. The timeline fits with the tweet after all. But while GZ was controversial, does it hit on any kind of taboo?

Tape 4? Maybe, but that was pretty much ripped straight from the Abu Grahib headlines. In fact, it was toned down from the reality. Depicting the torture of a kid? Not sure anyone was all that up in arms about that, which was odd. Again, nothing that wasn’t all over the headlines a few years ago. Snuke? Yeah, that could be it too, but a lot of people didn’t think he handled it at all well and I don’t see him being ostracised from the industry because of it.

What about this English Language thing in TPP? Yeah, it absolutely doesn’t seem like a taboo on the surface (although I can understand why someone outside the culture would think it was), but if he had mishandled it as he mentioned in his tweet, couldn’t it have had the potential to come across as quite racist (not sure if that's the word)?

Your giving Kojima way too much credit here. I'm sure the taboo thing was probably in regard to the whole "this is basically ethnic cleansing" but it wasn't some subversive take that to the concept of western culture and its effects on the world.

Because people had a bad time with the game and feel a bit betrayed, I honestly think some people aren’t giving it quite enough credit.
 

heringer

Member
Which Snake do you guys think is the best soldier? Big Boss is clearly the best leader, but in terms of accomplishments, can Venom hold a candle to BB and Solid Snake?

I enjoyed the boss fights... a lot, even. But more in a side boss sort of way. Game has some great side bosses but I wish it had more of a Cobra Unit equivalent, and I mean that in terms of creating cool characters as much as cool gameplay.

Man on Fire had awesome potential after Missions 1 and 20, but was wasted in what feels like just poor game production management. Maybe it would have worked out in a 3 Chapter story, hell even a fully-fledged 2nd chapter, but not with 1.5 chapters.

The problem with the boss fights is lack of characterization. Gameplay wise, I thought some of the bosses were good, like the sniping skulls (the fact that you can avoid them makes it even more interesting) or the one in the airport. Quiet was a bit easy, but I enjoyed too.

If you think back, the Cobra unit boss fights weren't that great at all, The End aside. What made them interesting was the cool characterization. The skulls were just plain boring and under explored.
 
The problem with the boss fights is lack of characterization. Gameplay wise, I thought some of the bosses were good, like the sniping skulls (the fact that you can avoid them makes it even more interesting) or the one in the airport. Quiet was a bit simple, but I enjoyed too.

If you think back, the Cobra unit boss fights weren't that great at all, The End aside. What made them interesting was the cool characterization. The skulls were just plain boring and under explored.

the cobra unit was awesome. cool boss fights with great character designs. but none of them have any character development at all (save for the sorrow). under explored is actually the perfect descriptor for the cobra unit
 

heringer

Member
the cobra unit was awesome. cool boss fights with great character designs. but none of them have any character development at all (save for the sorrow). under explored is actually the perfect descriptor for the cobra unit

I agree with you. But at least they were somewhat cool. Gameplay wise, I don't think they are among the best in the series.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Skulls (Mission 1)
Skulls (Mission 6)
Quiet
Skulls (Mission 16)
Man on Fire
Skulls Snipers
Skulls (Mission 29)
Sahelanthropus

What about Eli? You also forgot the earlier Snuffleupagus mission where you have to escape.

I agree with you. But at least they were somewhat cool. Gameplay wise, I don't think they are among the best in the series.

Gameplay wise they absolutely are. Easily. The Pain is the only dud in the bunch.
 
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