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Metal Gear Solid V SPOILER THREAD| [EXTR3ME] Such a lust for conclusion, T-WHHOOOO
- Thread starter MMarston
- Start date
KOMANI
KOMANI
That was foxtrot (sic)
MGS3 was really all we needed to understand the descent into villainy. I feel like everything after that was pretty much unnecessary.
It's not like Big Boss ever was the murdering puppies kind of villain anyway. In MG and MG2 some characters claim they only help Big Boss because he saved them first, and one character in MG2 outright says he is a wonderful person. Of course, a terrorist view is always going to be distorted, but Big Boss was always a villain on the grey side of things. He is no Liquid Snake.
Chronology
Member
This is why I think the way TPP handles his transition is really elegant, because a lot of what happens with Venom throughout the course of the game supports the player's preconception of BB going through some bloody conflict en route to villainy. However, when we figure out the twist, it's revealed that BB has been prompting this all along, for the sake of being able to pursue his true vision elsewhere. This is re-emphasized by the Intrude N313 tape in the ending, wherein we can infer that BB requires that Venmo fight (and be killed by) Solid Snake at the end of MG1.
In this way, BB is shown as a more nuanced villain, not a butcher or warlord as we might have expected, but a man willing to manipulate and betray his friends and comrades in the name of a larger ideal, that being his vision of the Boss's will. In this he's very much an "ends justifies the means" type of villain, with the evil in his character being derived from those means, rather than, necessarily, the ends themselves.
Eh bruv actually read what I wrote. I don't have an issue with the replacement but from what Hayter said of how he found out he was replaced, they acted like royal assholes.
WTF??
Relaxed Muscle
Member
There's no transition, BB in PW accepts Boss true vision and will and then in PP he just wants to create zanzibarland out of fucking nowhere.
I think the point is that Venom is still very much the carbon copy of PW BB, he has the same ideals as in PW, he fights against the desire of vengeance and the pain of what happened in GZ as Kaz puts is, which is the opposite of Venom (he is basically a paranoic and wants to kill everybody). He's still fully loyal to his comrades (he goes beyond duty to save Quiet and he even forgives Emmerich).
The whole game is about rebuilding what he did in PW.
My interpretation of the ending is different, Venom is not following BB orders, he wants to steal BB dream and vision, he dosn't accepts just being a copy and that's how he plans on getting his revenge. Even this transition is rushed, though.
That's the sad thing about PP, is not even the transition of BB, is the transition of Venom. BB transition is there from the start and never explained, not subtle...
BTW I was watching MGS4 videos yesterday, just to remember how bad it was, and I realized that Hayter just fucking sucks. That grizzly fake voice, damn so bad. Sutherland does a much better job, even if he sounds bored most of the time, but some lines like the famous one from the whole "over my face" ashes scene and above a level beyond Hayter could dream off.
This game will probably be judged harshly when the dust settles. I beat the game a few days ago and I'm starting to forget everything about it already. I just don't think the open world worked very well.
The 2 areas are mostly empty with a bunch of outposts haphazardly thrown together on the roads to make it seems like they cared about crafting interesting areas. The only interesting area to infiltrate in the whole game was OKB zero and even then it felt inferior to camp Omega.
It also seems like they ran into problems making story relevant areas and missions in that world. Like I said here just after beating it, 4/5 of the game is padding. You have to trail and kill random weapon dealers and fulton prisoners or containers ad nauseam. After doing a bunch of those mission you get a cutscene that seems disjointed with the rest of the game to move the plot a long and are then greeted with more terrible missions. I could only play about 2-3 hours each day and I felt the game never really respected my time. The plot advanced at a snail pace and I would always get stuck waiting for counters to finish so I could research more items.
It doesn't help the plot feels unfinished. You are told your staff is investigating where Eli ran off to with the metal gear and the chopper but it never gets resolved except for a mention the timeline at the end. I still don't get the whole "Snake becomes a demon" thing hyped by Kojima and how the game would be controversial. The only shocking part is when you kill your infected soldiers and Venom had to or the disease would spread. You don't even get to the point where you build Outer Heaven in the game or at least have Snake talking about building it in Zanzibar Land. It's only seen in the ending when he listen to the tape.
I listened to the truth records and I still don't get how the medic believes he was Snake and had the same voice as him. Probably somenanomachines parasites bullshit by zero.
The 2 areas are mostly empty with a bunch of outposts haphazardly thrown together on the roads to make it seems like they cared about crafting interesting areas. The only interesting area to infiltrate in the whole game was OKB zero and even then it felt inferior to camp Omega.
It also seems like they ran into problems making story relevant areas and missions in that world. Like I said here just after beating it, 4/5 of the game is padding. You have to trail and kill random weapon dealers and fulton prisoners or containers ad nauseam. After doing a bunch of those mission you get a cutscene that seems disjointed with the rest of the game to move the plot a long and are then greeted with more terrible missions. I could only play about 2-3 hours each day and I felt the game never really respected my time. The plot advanced at a snail pace and I would always get stuck waiting for counters to finish so I could research more items.
It doesn't help the plot feels unfinished. You are told your staff is investigating where Eli ran off to with the metal gear and the chopper but it never gets resolved except for a mention the timeline at the end. I still don't get the whole "Snake becomes a demon" thing hyped by Kojima and how the game would be controversial. The only shocking part is when you kill your infected soldiers and Venom had to or the disease would spread. You don't even get to the point where you build Outer Heaven in the game or at least have Snake talking about building it in Zanzibar Land. It's only seen in the ending when he listen to the tape.
I listened to the truth records and I still don't get how the medic believes he was Snake and had the same voice as him. Probably some
Lionheart1827
Member
Sorry if this has been answered already. One thing that kinda bugged me is that Venom was never infected with the english strain, even though the soldiers in the quarantine platform were all infected and were talking to him, as well as Quiet talking in front of him(and pequod as well).
Was there a reason for this or is it just that he got lucky? I listened to all of the code talker tapes, but theres so much information there that its hard to listen to at times. Lots of COPULATION and VOCAL CORDS etc etc.
Was there a reason for this or is it just that he got lucky? I listened to all of the code talker tapes, but theres so much information there that its hard to listen to at times. Lots of COPULATION and VOCAL CORDS etc etc.
He has a mask on during the quarantine and the Quiet thing, I don't know she was leaning over him he probably should've been infected, so eh. The Code Talker tapes are wholly inadequate for explaining how the parasites function. Also the helicopter showed up after she'd already left so the staff would be fine.
If Kojima was still around I bet we would get a "Subsistence" version of the game fixing a few issues and including some stuff.
The difference from Snake Eater to Subsistence was so massive (mainly because of camera though) that I felt bad for people who played Snake Eater first.
The difference from Snake Eater to Subsistence was so massive (mainly because of camera though) that I felt bad for people who played Snake Eater first.
Lionheart1827
Member
Damn, I still remember watching the scene when Quiet finally breaks her silence was like "oh god Snake is gonna get infected now, its either die by venom or die by being infected." And I figured they'd have some other way of saving him, but nah.
Get your facts checked.
While I agree the open world is empty and awful to traverse, especially on foot without sprinting. I think each and every outpost works great having multiple infiltration points.
But then again, there's no need to actually go from A to B when you can "Return to ACC" / use the box travel; the downside is the fucking chopper deploy when you want to return to the action.
Beyond some upgrades like cargo fulton, maybe a silenced sniper and a rocket launcher, you don't need any other items, having the items on a 5 minute timer (for lolRealism if they wanted a timer at all) waiting 10+ minutes for anything is a major kick in the balls and a lack of respect for player time after you went and farmed resources, this ain't no fucking grind MMO.
I've warmed up to the story after some time thinking it over. I think the biggest problem besides the terrible pacing is that the trailer make the game seem like something it's not. They're extremely deceptive. Remember when the red band trailer ended with him shooting fucking children? That didn't actually happen. When he shoots his own soldiers? He had a very good reason for it. They were basically zombies. Those brutal torture scenes? They were all warranted and even then the guy was merciful. Venom just doesn't become the demon the trailers make him out to be. Also, parasites are just as bad as nanomachines. They felt so out of place.
Ditto. Not to mention the trailers tell an interesting take on MGS. Even when its deceptive and "marketing", the stories told in the trailers have a complete arch, unlike MGSV unfinished works. A beginning, middle, climax and end that makes you want more. Really good editing. Tho, some of the spoil beats to whole sections of the game. Actually, they spoil most of teh story haha.
I think its interesting that there are 2 takes on the ending tho.
I always thought VS went rogue after the truth. Tho it seems to abstract to make a "solid" call on what really happens.
If you want to gets the 5-6 stars item not only you need to keep extracting and find blueprints but also to farm fuel and wait forever for it to process. I played for 55 hours and half the Mother Base isn't fully upgraded. 2-3 hours of in game time to upgrade the base so I can research more stuff ugh. And the direct counter argument to your point would be that the whole system is simply pointless then, since they could have you find the items on the map instead.
My point about respecting my time was also plot wise. Don't make me to 4-5 padding missions between plot points when I can play 2-3 hours at a time.
Two points are bothering me in your post.
Almost everything can be "infiltrated" from anywhere on a 360° radius, coupled with the vastness and flatness of the world, there is no "infiltration" at all. You can practically "infiltrate"any base or outpost just by crouching without ever being seen. And the poor AI made it so that just getting flat on the ground would render you invisible in most instances.
There is no "infiltration" in MGSV outside of OKB zero a bit.
And you can "not travel through the map" but every option available is riddled with loading times. Even boxes. ACC is a pain even without calling the chopper, it's loading, back to the chopper, selecting mission, selecting drop zone, loading, landing animation...
And you are right about the items, and that's because level design is pretty much inexistant, flat and vast and you can snipe a whole base from 100 meters away without getting spotted. --> no infiltration means no need for any weapons basically. And timers get annoying too, in the end developing everything is a chore since you finished the game so fast you don't have anything more to do if you're not that into online. So you just wait into ACC for development to finish.
I must have missed/ignored some plot details regarding Mantis. Why do Mantis and the Man on Fire fight against fellow XOF agents at the hospital? Later, when Eli shows up, Mantis suddenly decides to swap sides and betray Skull Face so he can join Team Liquid. MGS1 foreshadowing aside... why?
I believe Skull Face isn't allied with XoF and Mantis and Man on Fire are working with Skull Face directly. Of course, XoF doesn't know this. Mantis later betrays Skull Face because he resonated more with Eli's hate.
Mantis is a hate sponge in TPP, he basically has no will or personality he follows whoever has the most lust for revenge in close-ish proximity to him. As such he has no allegiance to anyone.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I should ask Kojima for those facts first, since he didn't include them in the game, is a shame he no longer works so he can't retcon more shit.
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[The sound of footsteps are heard.]
Miller Snake? You still here?
C'mon, let's go back.
Snake I'm not going back.
Miller Huh?
Snake I'm done.
Miller Snake, you don't mean...
Snake I'm done looking for the truth.
Miller What are you saying, Snake?
Snake I was wrong.
Miller C'mon, Boss. Everybody's waiting for you.
Snake ...She betrayed me, Kaz.
Miller She what?
Snake In the end, she put down her gun.
And when she did... she rejected her
entire life up to that point...
including me.
Miller What do you mean?
Snake In giving up her life, she abandoned
everything she was as a soldier...
Miller And you consider that betrayal?
Snake I won't make the same choice as her.
My future's going to be different.
Miller Then...
Snake Yeah, that's right.
From now on, call me Big Boss.
[Sounds of soldiers falling in line as Big Boss walks
past them.]
Big Boss We will forsake our countries.
We will leave our motherlands behind us
and become one with this earth. We have
no nation, no philosophy, no ideology.
We go where we're needed, fighting, not
for government, but for ourselves.
We need no reason to fight.
We fight because we are needed.
We will be the deterrent for those with
no other recourse. We are soldiers without
borders, our purpose defined by the era
we live in.
We will sometimes have to sell ourselves
and services. If the times demand it,
we'll be revolutionaries, criminals,
terrorists.
And yes, we may all be headed straight to
hell. But what better place for us than
this?
It's our only home.
Our heaven and our hell.
This is Outer Heaven.
THE END...?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
He still accepted her wish of peace, and protected it, even if he didn't accepted how she gave up her soldier life, the same goal in just in different terms, that ending just means he's gonna follow his army with no nation ideals. Not creating a nation to somekind of global revolution, that idea clearly comes after GZ, something we don't see.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Yes, he feels that The Boss basically committing suicide betrayed her "soldier" life and by proxy him, but not the ideals and message she left behind.
But this is irrelevant, the fact is, he stills follows his no nation, no philosophy, no ideology army and then jumps to fund a nation and start an global revolution, with no character development or apparent reason than bad writing.
Your original post:
"BB in PW accepts Boss true vision and will and then in PP he just wants to create zanzibarland out of fucking nowhere."
There is no "out of fucking nowhere" he rejects the boss and goes full merc Big Boss in the same breath (kinda), it all happens in that script I pasted.
Even that doesn't quite work, since he was also voiced by Sutherland in GZ - maybe to make the twist seem less jarring, but all it did was raise further questions.
It might make a little more sense if you assume GZ was just what the medic believes to have happened rather than a straight depiction of events, which is why he'd mentally superimpose his own voice on Snake. But that doesn't stand up in TPP itself - him just happening to sound completely identical to Snake is the explanation we're meant to accept.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
One thing is full merc, another thing is creating a whole country and starting a global revolution, specially since in the script you pasted he mentions a no nation, no philosophy army, which contradicts his Zanzibar Land plans he spouts at the end of PP.
Yes but in MGS4 we're told that it's because he needed to combat Cypher because he felt zero misinterpreted her will. Nothing's contradicted.
Hmm, reading through this again does seem like he's already in the state of mind of MG1 and 2 Big Boss, which renders the whole "turning into a monster" thing moot. His reasoning in MG2 is how his goal is to fuel war so he and his soldiers can have a place in the world and stay relevant, which seems in line with the PW speech.
ginger ninja
Banned
I noticed something, the very first time you start the game, it is same setting as mission 46 and the same tape playing. So it is possible that the truth mission happens after Venom wakes up but before the game actually kicks off in afghanistan, right ?
What do you mean? Truth is the same time as the Prologue, just the real version
ginger ninja
Banned
SJRB
Gold Member
..what?
No that scene takes place years after the end of this game. It can't possibly take place before Afghanistan.
When you boot the game for the first time you see the room in outer heaven with weapons, and a bloody big medic looks in the mirror and his life flashes before his eyes.
His "life" starts at the hospital, then you play MGSV and it ends with him playing the other side of the tape N313.
Thats one of many interpetations, but its all the same thing more or less, big medic looks in the mirror and the game plays, the game ends and you're back in the mirror scene.
His "life" starts at the hospital, then you play MGSV and it ends with him playing the other side of the tape N313.
Thats one of many interpetations, but its all the same thing more or less, big medic looks in the mirror and the game plays, the game ends and you're back in the mirror scene.
This is pretty much the only interpretation. The game is, for a lack of better word, "a flash-back".
Cyborg
Member
So am I getting this right:
1. When you boot the game for the first time you see the room in outer heaven with weapons, and you already see Venom Snake (that is the present) in the mirror.
2. Than you get a flashback and go back before the mirrior scene and start the game
3. You finish the game and he then turns over the tape to side B resuming the mirrior scene?
1. When you boot the game for the first time you see the room in outer heaven with weapons, and you already see Venom Snake (that is the present) in the mirror.
2. Than you get a flashback and go back before the mirrior scene and start the game
3. You finish the game and he then turns over the tape to side B resuming the mirrior scene?
Great post, thanks.
ginger ninja
Banned
Well yea it can't take place before Afghanistan but it's not a given that it takes place after the main game, just like the ending conversation between kaz and ocelet.
That tape scene is probably at the Outer Heaven base since the location is the same one he listens to the intrude tape at.