Magicpaint
Member
Prime 1 is the BEST selling Metroid game and Prime 3 sold better than Prime 2.ScionOfTheRisingSun said:
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Metroid Other M |OT| You're Not Supposed to Remember Him
- Thread starter Sadist
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Version 3.0
Member
I can't take someone seriously when the 'word' "prolly" is in his/her vocabulary.
How do people explain the drop between 1 and 2?Magicpaint said:
Is it the aging GC, many people buying into Prime naked and not liking the concept, new mechanics and lower review score overall?
It's weird 'cause
MP>>>>MP2
MP3>>>>Other M
and correct me if I'm wrong but
Fusion>>>ZM
Magicpaint
Member
You're correct about Fusion/ZM as well, it's hard to say really.My guess is that the excitement and build up to the first Metroid game on a new nintendo system allows it to sell better initially and then when the dust settles, only the really hardcore fans go for the sequel.Boney said:
_Alkaline_
Member
Boney said:
People don't appreciate true greatness.
ScionOfTheRisingSun
Banned
Magicpaint said:
Prime one and two were for an under performing underdog system, Prime 3 was for one of the most successful home console systems at the prime of its life. I bet Nintendo was expecting more from Prime 3, but that is just my interpretation.
Let us not forget that 2007 was when people still believe in Wii's ability to sustain games aimed at the core.
Leondexter said:
That is alright, I never take internet forum discussions seriously to begin with, it is all just to pass the time where instead I should be working.
UltimateIke
Member
One big thing to me is other Metroid games don't lock doors behind you. You are always allowed to explore areas you've already opened. I hate that, in Other M, every Sector except the one you are supposed to be in is locked once you leave it, and it doesn't open back until time for the story to go there again. It is annoying and gives you no chance to take things at your own pace.Sennorin said:
Magicpaint
Member
They probably expected Prime 3 to sell more but I don't think it sold that poorly considering the history of Metroid sales. Prime 1's sales aren't anything special compared to Nintendo's big franchises so their ceiling of expectations couldn't have been that high. But yeah after the Trilogy release bombed I think Nintendo felt it was time to try something new with Metroid?ScionOfTheRisingSun said:
Princess Skittles
Prince's's 'Skittle's
Metroid and Metroid 3 are non-linear.Acerac said:
Metroid 2 and Metroid 4 are extremely linear.
The series is, for the most part, known for non-linearity thanks to Super Metroid's massive notoriety, but it's not like it's been a consistent theme of the series.
Metroid Fusion does the exact same thing.UltimateIke said:
Metroid Killer
Member
You'll love this one then. A bit long, but worth it. USE YOUR PLASMA BEAM!etiolate said:
Compared to most other shooters/platformers/adventure games Metroid games are much more nonlinear in their progress. Just because Elder Scrolls takes the design to an extreme doesn't mean that Metroid games aren't nonlinear.Sennorin said:
Also just the fact that you were free to go whereever you wanted in Metroid(save Tourian), free choice between Kraid and Ridley... how can you say that isn't nonlinear gameplay?
I disagree. Yes Metroid 2 and Fusion(and Other M) are much more linear compared to the rest of the series. But looking at each game independently, you still got a limited choice in how to tackle the 'route', and backtracking remains as well. Just because it's a more streamlined experience doesn't make it 'extremely linear'.Princess Skittles said:
Once we got closer to Prime's release there was an insane amount of hype for the game. That hype wasn't there for Echoes and Nintendo really fumbled the marketing as well. Plus releasing the game in the same week as Halo 2 was suicide. Nintendo pretty much sent Echoes out to bombBoney said:
Boney said:
At one point, Nintendo gave away Prime with a purchase of a GC in America. They had a promo where you could choose between Prime, Star Fox Adventures, Mario Party 4 or some other game I can't remember. That's how I got Prime, but I didn't buy Prime 2 until the Wii trilogy was released. I never finished Prime on the GC, it was the Wii's pointer controls that helped me finish and appreciate it more. That said, I like Other M better then Prime 2 or 3.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
It's just a bad game overall. The story is just the cherry on top.supabrett said:
Princess Skittles said:
The series is known for non-linearity because that was like the defining aspect of the first game.
And calling Metroid 2 linear is doing it a disservice. While linear in the sense that you can't progress to the next area until you killed all the Metroids in the current area, it was still quite open in how you tackled each area. There were X number of Metroids, and you wandered until you found them. There were no doors that locked off to funnel your progress forward, no computer or commander telling you exactly where to go next. It was not linear in the same way that Fusion or Other M was.
Nonlinearity was a consistent theme of the series until Fusion.
Version 3.0
Member
Boney said:
It was certainly more the system's fault than the game's. The Gamecube had been kicked to the curb as the "kiddie" system by then, and Prime 2's release went almost unnoticed thanks to the hype for the other systems' Christmas games, particularly Halo 2.
Metroid Killer said:
It was actually the week after Halo 2, the same week as Metal Gear Solid 3. But yes, it was suicide, since Nintendo didn't market it at all and had done nothing to combat the Gamecube's "kiddie" image.
Mama Robotnik
Member
Sennorin said:
Metroid and Metroid Prime explicitly tell us that the Chozo were gifted with limited sight into the future. They presumably prophesised Samus' path throughout the universe, centered a huge part of their culture on her journey from planet to planet, and buried artifacts to support her. She was their continuation and legacy.
This makes sense in the canon of the series, has evidence supporting it and is logical.
The idea that Adam would not authorise Samus to use her standard weaponry in a hostile station against even the most sizable and dangerous entities, is incomprehensible. The fact that Samus adhered to this absurdity, risking the lives of herself and others, is a sad stain on her character and the series as a whole. There is nothing logical, rational or "infinitely more sense"ible about this.
In conclusion, I think you are wrong.
Metroid Killer
Member
Yup^ (to Kevincow's post)
Although it is kinda true that throughout the franchise the games have gotten more and more linear in design. I would line the games up like this when it comes to how linear they are in progress:
Metroid -> Super Metroid -> Prime/Zero Mission/Echoes -> Corruption -> Return of Samus -> Fusion/Other M
While I think Super Metroid hit the sweetspot when it comes to how nonlinear a Metroid game should be, I would also love a return to a Metroid(nes) style game (as in complete isolation and very nonlinear in progress).
Although it is kinda true that throughout the franchise the games have gotten more and more linear in design. I would line the games up like this when it comes to how linear they are in progress:
Metroid -> Super Metroid -> Prime/Zero Mission/Echoes -> Corruption -> Return of Samus -> Fusion/Other M
While I think Super Metroid hit the sweetspot when it comes to how nonlinear a Metroid game should be, I would also love a return to a Metroid(nes) style game (as in complete isolation and very nonlinear in progress).
Mama Robotnik said:
The only one that made sense was not using power bombs because there might be survivors and power bombs are kind of a mini nuke that melts everything in a big area, but the rest as you said is just nonsensical.
And anyway, Samus making the decision to not use power bombs would have made more sense than her just following orders.
People keep overthinking it. It was just a way to limit powers. It was stupid, yeah, but so is every excuse ever given for Samus not having powers. Would you rather her get hit by an electrical wire and have a suit malfunction again? Who knows, maybe the way the varia suit protects Samus from heat involves deadly deadly radiation.Mama Robotnik said:
I don´t care about 2D-Metroids. Please tell me where the Prime-games were non-linear. The answer: They weren´t.
@MamaRobotnik: If you can accept a ridiculous "the Chozo saw the future and planted replacement equipment on all the planets Samus would eventually visit", I cannot take you seriously when you say you cannot accept Adam´s authorization. To be clear, I find both justifications for limiting Samus´ abilities silly, but I find the authorization way less silly.
And Other M isn´t average. I liked Prime 1 more than Other M, but I liked Other M more than the two Prime-sequels.
@MamaRobotnik: If you can accept a ridiculous "the Chozo saw the future and planted replacement equipment on all the planets Samus would eventually visit", I cannot take you seriously when you say you cannot accept Adam´s authorization. To be clear, I find both justifications for limiting Samus´ abilities silly, but I find the authorization way less silly.
ElectricBlanketFire said:
And Other M isn´t average. I liked Prime 1 more than Other M, but I liked Other M more than the two Prime-sequels.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Could you explain this a bit more please? I genuinely would like to know why.Sennorin said:
Most importantly, the authorization was a lame way to control progression. Needing to walk into a room with glass, unable to hit a switch and then doubling back to trigger a cutscene so you could get the wave beam for the earlier room was dumb. Needing to lock on a grapple point to unlock authorize the grapple beam even though literally 30 seconds before, looking at that grapple point did nothing was even worse.
What is this, you didn't say Prime games only. Even then, people outlined it's not just the fact there is only one possible path. The Prime games still give you the option to go down those dead ends.
Sennorin said:
What is this, you didn't say Prime games only. Even then, people outlined it's not just the fact there is only one possible path. The Prime games still give you the option to go down those dead ends.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Sennorin said:
I think one of the big problems with Other M's authorisation is that even when you unlock the previously limited equipment it just seems less satisfying. You had it all along, sure, you had to progress through the story for it to unlock, but it is not as satisfying as working through a puzzle/boss fight and being rewarded with a badass new gun. While they are pretty much the same process of unlocking, psychologically I feel they are poles apart.
ElectricBlanketFire said:
Prime 1 had great, varied, open environments. It also was a totally unique experience. Prime 2 was too difficult for my enjoyment and had too dark, brownish environments, only true highlight was the last area. Prime 3 had a less open world, and didn´t feel fresh at its release. I rather forced myself to play.
Meanwhile, Other M was nother fresh experience, totally different from anything I´ver ever played before, so it was more like playing Prime 1 for the first time. Also, I loved seeing more of the world of Metroid, outside of the mission´s place. And Other M´s combat is probably the most fun I´ve ever had in an action-game, fullstop.
KarmaCow said:
But walking down dead ends, only to realize that you´re not allowed to progress, isn´t fun, it´s frustrating. Give me either true non-linearity or don´t.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I feel a lot of fans freaked out over the "authorization" gimmick because they were so infatuated with Samus they were literally angry she was taking orders from "another man". (She's MAI girlfriend! Get yer own!)
The authorization thing was not *well written* in a few places, as was just specified. That is true. However the basic logic of it, is, and always has been, perfectly sound, and perhaps one of the most REALISTIC power gating gimmicks in a video game.
You are a soldier in a super suit.
You enter a space station.
People should not shoot up space stations.
That makes holes. It breaks things. Air goes out. Systems fail. Everyone dies.
The *dude officially in charge* tells you to stow yer dangerous shit until he gives the word.
You are a professional, and not a gamer who just wants to shoot everything to see what happens. So you follow that order.
How does this not make sense?
In case nobody noticed, Adam *also* had to authorize more dangerous weapons for his own team - Samus was not being treated differently (or "sexist") because she was a grrl.
I actually expect they'll never use a logical gimmick for gating Samus' powers again because players just couldn't wrap their head around an unexpected turn for the rational in Metroid's universe :lol:
The authorization thing was not *well written* in a few places, as was just specified. That is true. However the basic logic of it, is, and always has been, perfectly sound, and perhaps one of the most REALISTIC power gating gimmicks in a video game.
You are a soldier in a super suit.
You enter a space station.
People should not shoot up space stations.
That makes holes. It breaks things. Air goes out. Systems fail. Everyone dies.
The *dude officially in charge* tells you to stow yer dangerous shit until he gives the word.
You are a professional, and not a gamer who just wants to shoot everything to see what happens. So you follow that order.
How does this not make sense?
In case nobody noticed, Adam *also* had to authorize more dangerous weapons for his own team - Samus was not being treated differently (or "sexist") because she was a grrl.
I actually expect they'll never use a logical gimmick for gating Samus' powers again because players just couldn't wrap their head around an unexpected turn for the rational in Metroid's universe :lol:
I like Other M more than any of the Prime games as well even if Prime 1 and 2 are a much better crafted experience. They're just different genres.ElectricBlanketFire said:
As for authorization, I stand by in terms of story, in no opportunity she is actually "in danger", and that contradicts the game logic. And that's off putting to some (most). If you leave Samus in sector 3 without the Varia she'll die, but that's just gameplay elements, same as a crappy player have Samus die against just a little bug. It might bend people's suspension of disbelief snapping it, but I still mantain there's still a thread of logic behind the authorization process.
I don't know, it doesn't bother me at least, and I thought it worked well in some situations like Grapple Beam, Screw Attack, Gravity Suit and the Plasma Beam.
I got from the story that she felt guilty for her past transgressions against Adam and wanted to redeem herself in his eyes, as he was one of the only people she actually cared about in the entire universe. When she was young she constantly disobeyed orders and challenged her CO's authority, which in hindsight she viewed as juvenile. So I guess I figured she was down to play the game if it meant showing him that she actually cared about their relationship. Up to and including putting herself in danger and others all the while knowing that when necessary, Adam would authorize exactly what she needed at the time. When Adam isn't around any longer, she activates her equipment on her own time but one again only when necessary.Mama Robotnik said:
*shrug*
Metroid Killer
Member
Sennorin said:
You argue that hardcore Metroid fans bitch about Other M being too linear compared to previous Metroi games, and then you disregard all 2D Metroids...Sennorin said:
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Kaijima said:
I think you're reading way too much into it.
Green Mamba
Member
Kaijima is on his pedestal, looking down on the lower life forms once again. And Sennorin is jumping through logical hoops that just boggle the mind like usual.
This topic never changes.
This topic never changes.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
It's actually better the second time through.daedalius said:
Green Mamba
Member
If only because you can skip the scenes.ElectricBlanketFire said:
Metroid Killer
Member
No you said you don't understand hardcore Metroid fans critisizing Other M for being linear.Sennorin said:
They criticize Other M in the same way Fusion and Corruption got criticized for being linear compared to the other games in the franchise. You can't just take 2D metroids out of the equation when the old 2D games are what made those hardcore metroid fans.
Also these are the Metroid games released in the last 10 years.
Metroid Fusion
Metroid Prime
Metroid: Zero Mission
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
Metroid: Other M
Only Fusion, Corruption and Other M have gone in a more linear streamlined direction, that does not mean in anyway that it going to be the standard for the franchise in future installments.
ScionOfTheRisingSun
Banned
I'll say this about Other M,
that surprise boss fight against Phantoon after the end was the single most epic moment in my history with the series, never saw it coming.
Kaijima said:
Yeah. The power-up that does literally nothing but protect Samus from burning to death is a serious danger to other people on the ship. So is the one that does nothing but negate effects on gravity. Oh, and the grapple beam, Samus is just gonna accidentally kill everyone around her with that thing.
Even ignoring that, it still doesn't make sense. If her weapons really are so dangerous, why would Adam let her continue using them after it was necessary? If they were so horribly dangerous, wouldn't it make more sense for him to authorize the weapon use on a situational basis? "Oh, you need to shoot that switch through the wall? Okay, use your wave beam for this. But then turn it off afterwards."
But instead, it's, "Alright, whatever, I have arbitrarily decided that this weapon that was horribly dangerous to everyone around you is no longer horribly dangerous to everyone around you just because you encountered one obstacle that requires it to pass. Go ahead and use it with reckless abandon."
Not only is it an irritating mechanic, it doesn't even make sense within the context of the game.
Green Mamba
Member
Yeah, Other M's authorization system isn't hated because it's different, it's hated because it doesn't even make sense within the context of the game. Fusion's change to the power gaining was pretty different, but nobody cried foul there, because it made sense within the context of the game. Other M's power gaining system just makes Samus and Adam look like mouth breathing idiots.
EDIT: And never mind that Samus still finds some completely randomly placed Energy Tanks and Missile Expansions scattered throughout the station, not to mention the Diffusion Beam and Seeker Missiles just randomly dropped from enemies she defeated, so the inherent Metroid gamieness that the power up system was meant to explain didn't even cover all the bases.
EDIT: And never mind that Samus still finds some completely randomly placed Energy Tanks and Missile Expansions scattered throughout the station, not to mention the Diffusion Beam and Seeker Missiles just randomly dropped from enemies she defeated, so the inherent Metroid gamieness that the power up system was meant to explain didn't even cover all the bases.
vcassano1 said:
I think the same. We all know that the set-up is just that, a set-up so you don't start with all your equipment, because then it wouldn't be a Metroid game, and there would be no sense of progression, which is a big part of the games. But the gimmick in Other M is terrible because you only feel constrained, the sense of progression is minimal, and most important, you can't do any sequence breaking.
Kaijima said:
But all of her weapons are eventually unlocked and continue to be used without any problems. So why are they so dangerous to the Space Station before they are unlocked? Why don't they continue to be a danger to the structural integrity of the space station after they are unlocked? Samus uses them in the game and they don't appear to be a danger to the space station or squadmates. The whole logic of the authorization system just collaspes on itself.
On top of that, why are Samus's weapons suddenly an environmental hazard? She's been in several space stations/facilities before Other M with several of her power unlocked. They weren't a danger in those situations. Metroid Fusion took place in a space station with Samus being able to use her powers freely. It's a strange change to the series mythology that doesn't add anything of value to it.
mantidor said:
I've suggested this before but why didn't they just have the hyperbeam from Super Metroid make the power suit malfunction? They can say that Samus's powers will come periodically as the automated repair system does its work. It's functionality the same as the authorization system without the added baggage and leaps in logic.
ScionOfTheRisingSun
Banned
Green Mamba said:
Don't you mean it is mechanically the exact same thing as getting a powerup in a room after a boss fight with the difference only existing in people's minds?
It is a videogame people, you are not supposed to look behind the curtain of a mechanical contrivance.
Green Mamba
Member
I think a good enough solution would have been to have Adam confiscate all of her items and distribute them through Data Rooms a la Fusion. At the very least then you could excuse Samus running through super-heated rooms without turning on her Varia Suit (and excuse Adam for letting her do so) by having the only available Data Room to download it be behind superheated rooms.
Metroid fans are perfectly fine not looking behind the curtain of mechanical contrivance. It's Other M that lifts the curtain and yells at you you repeatedly to look at the man behind it while prying your eyelids open. You're not allowed to not look behind it.ScionOfTheRisingSun said:
Metroid Killer
Member
Pretty hard when it's shoved up our faces in Other M.ScionOfTheRisingSun said:
Yes the logic of the games don't always make sense (see Doors only Samus can open, Pirates having morph ball sized puzzles in their bases, etc.). But except for some scans mostly just going in detail about various subjects in the Prime games, the games have never really tried to explain why it is like it is. And as you said why should they, they are just excuses for having fun.
But with Other M because the focus on story the gameplay mechanics flawed logic is amplified, and considering that Other M's way to grant Samus power-ups is unlike any other Metroid games it was obviously gonna get commented a lot.
I do think it was a good idea to come up with something other than 'Samus loses all her powers', but it could have been done better.
ScionOfTheRisingSun said:
As I said before, sequence breaking. The difference is huge when the power up is an actual item you catch, and not a cutscene-triggered event.
I liked echoes gimmick in that regard, you come to a new planet so it makes sense that you need new abilities because the environment is different, the suit is modular enough to adapt to many different alien technologies, and then you give them up at the end of the game because you don't need them outside. The only minor gripe is that U-Mos could have given you the light suit from the beginning, but is really minor compared to something like Other M.
Mockingbird
Member
Green Mamba said:
Can you skip the story segments where you have to walk slowly? Or the parts where you have to look for something suspicious? Took me forever to find the stupid little bunny.
ScionOfTheRisingSun
Banned
Let us be realistic gentelmen, in terms of narrative veneer it was perhaps clumsy, but in terms of gameplay it made no difference. By moaning about it you display questionable priorities in the way you appreciate this medium.
It is like when people complain about Kratos always losing all of his abillities in the begining. I bet they all know that the games would suck without the nice gradual way the gameplay evolves as you unlock each ability. But despite knowing they choose to moan anyway.
I guess what developers should take away from this is that mechanical contrivances in games are best left unadressed by the narrative veneer. That way fewer people will complain.
It is like when people complain about Kratos always losing all of his abillities in the begining. I bet they all know that the games would suck without the nice gradual way the gameplay evolves as you unlock each ability. But despite knowing they choose to moan anyway.
I guess what developers should take away from this is that mechanical contrivances in games are best left unadressed by the narrative veneer. That way fewer people will complain.