The Faceless Master
Member
real life seems to agree, look at the sales data compared to "worse rated" games...efralope said:
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Metroid Prime controls-- yay or nay?
- Thread starter Chrono
- Start date
The Faceless Master
Member
because wanting more options is just so gosh darn narrow minded, bitchy and whiny...Mejilan said:
carbonbased
Member
1. It's one of the biggest games on the Gamecube, so it receives much more exposure than many other games.The Faceless Master said:
2. It tried a controller configuration that's only been seen in one game (as far as I know, Maken X) before it, a configuration very different from what the status quo for similar games was. If you make a game that has the exact same controls as 260 other games before it, no one is going to have reason to bitch about how your game controls.
3. It's obvious, from the general press, sales, and message board denizens, that the controls are not "unplayable." Sure, you're entitled to think they're bad, but don't act as if a large majority of the people out there don't at least view the controls as adequate.
disabledHeliocentric
Member
The Faceless Master said:
The majority of people who complain about Prime don't even own a Gamecube. They own an XBOX and somehow feel threatened by Prime which they see as some competitor to Halo.
You can see these reviews all over the place wherever users are allowed to post reviews, giving MP a 2/10 and saying "Prime is teh sucks, but the Halo Rox". These same people also use internet messageboards, unfortunately.
What I want to know is why does every fricking game have to have the same controls. I mean, as the game's creators have said this is not an FPS-- it is a First-Person Adventure. The gameplay and level design largely differ from every FPS I have played. This is unequivically a Metroid game. If you want FPS controls go play Halo( imo is a great game too but for totally different reasons).
Running along from room to room and platform hopping while avoiding creepy crawlers, solving puzzles, using a wide array of items, fighting bosses etc. is way more varied and a ways off the beaten path of the typical FPS strategising and positioning where you get sucked into one area and use it to avoid getting shot,(as opposed to say skipping about platform to platform and interacting with things with shooting).
Imo, Metroid Prime sports GREAT controls. This is NOT Gunvalyrie. Sorry for the rant but I enjoyed Prime tons and had to stick up for it.
Nay.
Nay to lack of free sight while moving.
Nay to lack of free strafe.
Nay to gimmicky visor and weapon switching.
Off topic, it reminds me of Resident Evil.
Interesting enough worlds (MP also has some interesting fights), but the clunky controls and loads of backtracking coupled with mediocre gameplay make too much a chore to play it anymore.
That's the problem I have with MP. Is not fun, AND the ambientation (rolling armoured space girl, whozza!) doesn't catch me enough.
I enjoyed plenty of games with mediocre gameplay (Hi Silent Hill) cause I really liked the atmosphere, I even defended the unconfortable RE controls as means to increase immersion, so guess I can understand why someone likes MP.
Am I the only one who, thinking of MP, feels instead like playing... the first Unreal?
That one had pretty good gameplay and ambientation, with a similiar Alien World vibe.
Nay to lack of free sight while moving.
Nay to lack of free strafe.
Nay to gimmicky visor and weapon switching.
Off topic, it reminds me of Resident Evil.
Interesting enough worlds (MP also has some interesting fights), but the clunky controls and loads of backtracking coupled with mediocre gameplay make too much a chore to play it anymore.
That's the problem I have with MP. Is not fun, AND the ambientation (rolling armoured space girl, whozza!) doesn't catch me enough.
I enjoyed plenty of games with mediocre gameplay (Hi Silent Hill) cause I really liked the atmosphere, I even defended the unconfortable RE controls as means to increase immersion, so guess I can understand why someone likes MP.
Am I the only one who, thinking of MP, feels instead like playing... the first Unreal?
That one had pretty good gameplay and ambientation, with a similiar Alien World vibe.
Crazymoogle
Member
Wow, lots of Jr members crawling out of the woodwork on this one.
The argument about "PC players prefer dual analog" sounds pretty suspect to me. I enjoy PC FPS games. They use something called a "mouse". The home consoles might as well have trackballs because those sticks aren't nearly as fast and accurate as they would have to be to match up. Sniping in MGS2 drives me nuts because of the analog stick aiming.
I think MP does a great job of using a control scheme that reflects the system being used and gameplay that is implemented, instead of the arbitrary rules of a genre that typically uses a completely different set of input devices.
The argument about "PC players prefer dual analog" sounds pretty suspect to me. I enjoy PC FPS games. They use something called a "mouse". The home consoles might as well have trackballs because those sticks aren't nearly as fast and accurate as they would have to be to match up. Sniping in MGS2 drives me nuts because of the analog stick aiming.
I think MP does a great job of using a control scheme that reflects the system being used and gameplay that is implemented, instead of the arbitrary rules of a genre that typically uses a completely different set of input devices.
Crazymoogle said:
Happens, when the board is reset in relatively recent times.
80 posts on the new board, over 1.3 posts daily, still Junior. Was just thinking about it. I must be new to this videogaming thing.
Ill start making 5+ crappy posts daily, and EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE MY WISDOM!
Edit: on with my newfound Heavy & Crappy Poster job!
Society said:
True, the concept of FPS usually gives the idea of a fast and fun game =)
disabledHeliocentric
Member
Ar_ said:
???
Well MP's gameplay is more varied than most FPS and most Survival Horror games.
Personally I can only take so much repetitive shooting as I wander generic FPS corridoors.
MP's environments are remarkably varied. Each room is unique, with its own secrets and charms(I guess in that sense it IS like RE, to its credit).
The controls are actually tight and responsive(unlike RE's). Everything moves at 60 FPS, the platforming is intuitive, the gameplay has a nice rhythm by turns giving you platforming, shooting, room exploration, boss fights, puzzles, special item upgrades which change how you play through the previously explored areas. I'd say its controls are among the best. The thing is this: It doesn't control, nor does it play like an FPS. It's going for a(here's an alien concept to some) Metroid feel, like how LOZ:Oot was aiming for a(a big stretch, but try to follow me) Legend of Zelda feel. As I played through Prime I also was playing fuson and replaying the other Metroids. I was able to go back and forth and say "YES!, this is a good Metroid game. YES!, This is better than Metroid Fusion".
My complaints: I think the art direction while quite good could still further evolve and improve. The gameplay and ambiance of the environments really carried the game for me, but after playing Zero Mission and replaying Super Metroid I'd like to see some purple/pink oozing bile levels(the last part before fighting Prime doesn't count!). Also, I want some marshmellow looking things shooting from vents. To its credit, Echoes appears far more purple. This is a good thing. Yes it is.
Alcibiades
Member
Crazymoogle said:
actually, I think some reviewers (I believe it was Kasavin for Gamespot and other praising it on that site + praise from GameSpy people) thought it was awesome and I think they were big PC FPS fans, and some dude (on a gamespotting column) talked about how he mostly played just PC games, but really was thinking about buying a GCN because the game was so great, it was really that impactful and would only be on a console...
I think it's safe to say that by and large, most PC FPS fans and tradional FPS fans did not like the controls though.
People who are used to mouse look, manual aim, and/or the ability to free look while strafing didn't like losing that depth of control in Metroid Prime.
MP has many fine qualities, but I think it's a consensus that most people enjoyed the game in spite of its controls, not partially because of them, which does speak to how good the content was.
People who are used to mouse look, manual aim, and/or the ability to free look while strafing didn't like losing that depth of control in Metroid Prime.
MP has many fine qualities, but I think it's a consensus that most people enjoyed the game in spite of its controls, not partially because of them, which does speak to how good the content was.
Ar_ said:
You know, I've never really felt the need to look around when moving in any FPS game. Sure, I'll do it in a PC game because all it takes is a flick of the wrist, but console FPS's all have such slow turning speeds that it just seems awkward to look around and try and still go the direction you were moving in before.
You can hold L when not locked onto an enemy to strafe side to side.
T-1000_Model3
Banned
Yay.
I'm more a fan of the Type S controller since the Cube pad bothers me in some genres. But for Metroid Prime its great for me.
I think the bitching is way overblown really. I'm no god at shooters,I hold my own,am able to adjust to controls like the average person can-in the end I had no problem with Metroid Prime. Sure the first 5-10 minutes theres an adjustment period,but what the hell,its not nearly as umm (whats the word)..."awful?" as some of you guys make it out to be
I'm more a fan of the Type S controller since the Cube pad bothers me in some genres. But for Metroid Prime its great for me.
I think the bitching is way overblown really. I'm no god at shooters,I hold my own,am able to adjust to controls like the average person can-in the end I had no problem with Metroid Prime. Sure the first 5-10 minutes theres an adjustment period,but what the hell,its not nearly as umm (whats the word)..."awful?" as some of you guys make it out to be
aerodynamik
Member
I hate being so late to the party. I won't read everything, anyway...
- The controls in MP kick ass, for what they are supposed to do. And there are never too many enemies at the same time, so targeting is enough (in normal difficulty mode, at least).
- I didn't find Phazon Mines particularly hard, except for the damnable Omega Pirate. I hate when you have but the shortest window of opportunity to just damage a boss, and that's the way most bosses work in MP. But for the rest of the game you have sooo many energy packs by the end of the game that you can breeze through anything, and actually you end up not caring much about getting hurt in transition zones. I consider that a mistake from the developers. Maybe you (to the author of the thread) didn't pick up many of those energy packs.
That said, I luuuuuv the game.
- The controls in MP kick ass, for what they are supposed to do. And there are never too many enemies at the same time, so targeting is enough (in normal difficulty mode, at least).
- I didn't find Phazon Mines particularly hard, except for the damnable Omega Pirate. I hate when you have but the shortest window of opportunity to just damage a boss, and that's the way most bosses work in MP. But for the rest of the game you have sooo many energy packs by the end of the game that you can breeze through anything, and actually you end up not caring much about getting hurt in transition zones. I consider that a mistake from the developers. Maybe you (to the author of the thread) didn't pick up many of those energy packs.
That said, I luuuuuv the game.
Kiriku said:
I don't see that at all. The game works with the control scheme because that's the way it was designed, like RE controls work for RE. If MP was a mouse/keyboard game for PC and they ported it to console with the current scheme, I would probably complain because the designers wouldn't have designed it with that control setup in mind. For that reason I usually can't stand console ports of PC FPS games. Dual anologue controls cannot acurately duplicate a mouse/keyboard setup. You do not have the same level of speed and precision.
One of the best things Bungie did when making Halo was keeping in mind that it was a console game and to be played with controller only. Vertical axis movement is slow, as is aiming and gameplay in general, and IT WORKS! I'm a PC shooter whore, but I had no problem adapting to Halo, just like I had no problem with MP. Nor did I feel the game was harder because of said controls. To be honest, I can't imagine playing MP using two anologue sticks. Maybe if they had no lock on feature ...
*shrugs*
Vlad said:
FPS games generally don't require nearly as much jumping as MP does.
When they do require some platforming, I surely apprecciate being able to look slighy down while running to accurately see where Im stepping.
No free look while moving, in this situation, means either less accurate movement or multiple pauses to look - both of which I find less than ideal.
It is also handy if you have enemyes attacking from right above or below you, to check their position while avoiding attacks.
Without it, you either semplify the level design, or risk the player feeling crippled in such situations.
The slow turning speed is actually a reason that makes free strafing even more missed.
IIRC you can't strafe when there aren't enemyes around.
Too bad, since strafing would make the movement in general swifter and precise.
It allows for faster changes of direction and slight repositioning on a platform, without going thru the clumsy routine to rotate, move and rotate again.
Helps correcting eventual imprecisions in your direction (analog stick isn't all that accurate), while running.
Overall, I find that freelook + strafe would allow to navigate faster without causing a loss in accuracy. Enough reason to be dissatisfied with MP's.
Hellraizah
Member
It's so funny to hear comments like "it's not a first person shooter, it's a first person adventure game......"
If my memory serves right, most of the time in Metroid Prime, you shoot and you play in first person perspective.
When any gamer can come up with a control scheme that would give you more liberty in what you do while preserving the core of the game without any problems, it's easy to see that common FPS controls with dual analog sticks would work very well with Metroid Prime. I truly hope that they include this choice of control setup in Metroid Prime 2, because I will enjoy seeing how every Metroid Prime fan will be switching to the common FPS controls in no time (especially for multiplayer).
If your game is played from a first person/third person view, you need the dual analog stick control scheme to give the most liberty to the gamer. By the way, I predict that Resident Evil 4 controls will suck balls for the same reason.
If my memory serves right, most of the time in Metroid Prime, you shoot and you play in first person perspective.
When any gamer can come up with a control scheme that would give you more liberty in what you do while preserving the core of the game without any problems, it's easy to see that common FPS controls with dual analog sticks would work very well with Metroid Prime. I truly hope that they include this choice of control setup in Metroid Prime 2, because I will enjoy seeing how every Metroid Prime fan will be switching to the common FPS controls in no time (especially for multiplayer).
If your game is played from a first person/third person view, you need the dual analog stick control scheme to give the most liberty to the gamer. By the way, I predict that Resident Evil 4 controls will suck balls for the same reason.
Metroid Prime 2 would have been hindered with no lock on.
-Scanning would have been more difficult and frustrating.
-Boss battles would have either been really generic "SHOOT BAD GUY" or really frustrating because of the lack of lock on.
-Some control options would need to be removed like missiles and the ability to combine missiles with the charge beam. It would have removed a lot of depth in gameplay.
DUAL ANALOG JUST WOULDNT WORK
Its not for Metroid Prime or its sequel. It would be frustrating at best in Metroid Prime and if the next game is built around it, it will be a lot more shallow than the first.
I almost want Prime 2 to include DA control so the people who want it will see how poorly the game works with it.
-Scanning would have been more difficult and frustrating.
-Boss battles would have either been really generic "SHOOT BAD GUY" or really frustrating because of the lack of lock on.
-Some control options would need to be removed like missiles and the ability to combine missiles with the charge beam. It would have removed a lot of depth in gameplay.
DUAL ANALOG JUST WOULDNT WORK
Its not for Metroid Prime or its sequel. It would be frustrating at best in Metroid Prime and if the next game is built around it, it will be a lot more shallow than the first.
I almost want Prime 2 to include DA control so the people who want it will see how poorly the game works with it.
Hellraizah
Member
olimario, are you for real ?
How would the dual analog stick scheme make the game shallow ???
Replace the L trigger from "lock on" to "jump" and voilà.
Oh, and in third person.
How would the dual analog stick scheme make the game shallow ???
Replace the L trigger from "lock on" to "jump" and voilà.
Oh, and in third person.
Hellraizah said:
Absolutely for real. Boss fights would be reduced to simple "shoot enemy" fights. Puzzle solving and adventuring would be simplified with the lack of scanning enemies and environments.
Not to mention that Lock on is used for a lot more than just combat, where it works fine to begin with.
Metroid Prime 2 would be a simplified, jumbled mess if Retro switched it to DA.
Alcibiades
Member
the game world/gameplay/control were probably all developed in conjuction (ground up, etc..)...
It's not like they decided at the very end what control scheme they were going to go with, even the bosses were designed around that...
Halo-style control is for shooters, as AFAIK, I did a lot of adventuring/exploring, and the shooting was more of an after thought in many cases. It would be very frustrating to have to shoot everything GoldenEye/Halo-style again and again having to aim for ultra-small creatures, etc.., when it's much easier to have do lock-on since things kind of become automatic when breezing through places where there are re-spawed enemines (similar to how avoiding/shooting enemies in Metroid/Super Metroid felt in backtracking in those games)...
The game fits the control and the control fits that game, that's how it was designed, can you imagine doing the bee-mini-boss-thing with manual control?
It's not like they decided at the very end what control scheme they were going to go with, even the bosses were designed around that...
Halo-style control is for shooters, as AFAIK, I did a lot of adventuring/exploring, and the shooting was more of an after thought in many cases. It would be very frustrating to have to shoot everything GoldenEye/Halo-style again and again having to aim for ultra-small creatures, etc.., when it's much easier to have do lock-on since things kind of become automatic when breezing through places where there are re-spawed enemines (similar to how avoiding/shooting enemies in Metroid/Super Metroid felt in backtracking in those games)...
The game fits the control and the control fits that game, that's how it was designed, can you imagine doing the bee-mini-boss-thing with manual control?
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
Yup, shooting is an afterthought in metroid games, i mean enemies are usually so weak, they're absolutely no threath to samus. Metroid games have always been about exploring, while killing waves of enemies easily in your path, then encounter tough boss, move on and repeat. Just like metroid prime. Since all boss in MP were made from ground up with lock on in mind, it kinda stay true to the formula this way.
Hellraizah
Member
It's that, in real life, you can move your head and check where you want to see while still going in one direction. In Metroid Prime, you can't. If they wanted us to feel that Samus armor is clunky and doesn't allow much movement, mission succeeded.
Alcibiades
Member
Hellraizah said:
why would Samus movement be twisty and fast?
even the way there is a slowdown in movement as one turns to look upward goes with the feel of the game that you are in this armored Samus suit...
It's not real life, it's a sci-fi adventure, the fact that it doesn't control like a typical military FPS should come as no surprise if you've played previous Metroid games...
edit: not saying that you could predict controls for a 3-d Metroid from playing 2-d Metroid's, but it's doubtful you'd expect GoldenEye or Halo controls going into the game when the style is so different (no matter what the perspective was, 2d, first or 3rd person, etc..). Metroid isn't a shooter even in 2-d...
So all you people whining about the control scheme how would the controls be set up?
Left stick for movement
Right stick for looking
Now keep in mind that prime has a LOT of controls that are needed to use every part of the game.
How would you set up the following?
Weapon select
Visor Select
Lock On
Jump
Missle
Beam
Beam/super missle
Map
Morph Ball
Left stick for movement
Right stick for looking
Now keep in mind that prime has a LOT of controls that are needed to use every part of the game.
How would you set up the following?
Weapon select
Visor Select
Lock On
Jump
Missle
Beam
Beam/super missle
Map
Morph Ball
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
I talked with panajev about how it could be done a while ago
Basicly
Jump and attack buttons are the primary focus, since your thumb would be on the C-stick for looking around, it has to be on the triggers
L = jump
R = shoot, digital click = charge up
Missile = Z button
Weapon select = Right and left Dpad
Visor select = Up and down dpad
lock on = not needed
map = start
Morph ball = any button on the layout, since you wouldnt need the c-stick anymore in that form. Could
Personally, i would stick with the original theme, the triggers on GC's pad are just not suited for repeative tapping such as the beam weapon.
Sacrifice the main actions of the game just to look around? no thanks. Not to mention that switching beams and visors wouldnt be anywhere near as good as the original layout, but there's not much of a choice if they would want dual analog stick.
Basicly
Jump and attack buttons are the primary focus, since your thumb would be on the C-stick for looking around, it has to be on the triggers
L = jump
R = shoot, digital click = charge up
Missile = Z button
Weapon select = Right and left Dpad
Visor select = Up and down dpad
lock on = not needed
map = start
Morph ball = any button on the layout, since you wouldnt need the c-stick anymore in that form. Could
Personally, i would stick with the original theme, the triggers on GC's pad are just not suited for repeative tapping such as the beam weapon.
Sacrifice the main actions of the game just to look around? no thanks. Not to mention that switching beams and visors wouldnt be anywhere near as good as the original layout, but there's not much of a choice if they would want dual analog stick.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
Hellraizah said:
Haha. I was thinking the exact opposite. If Retro was to include a dual analog control scheme in MP2, I would think that most critics would realize how it just doesnt work in an MP type of game.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Last I checked, you shoot the bosses to beat them in MP. The "trick" is choosing the right weapons, not using lock-on; lock-on just makes targeting tiny bits of 'em easier. That's never been part of any Metroid until Prime, and, quite frankly, I wouldn't miss it. Nothing about using dual analog would make boss puzzles any less Metroid -- you can still give them weaknesses and alternate targets.
And getting rid of scanning is a GOOD thing.
Sorry, oli, you're clueless.
And getting rid of scanning is a GOOD thing.
Sorry, oli, you're clueless.
Littleberu
Banned
Drinky Crow said:
You needed to switch between visor mode, between guns, and morph ball to beat some boss. It would have been impossible to keep track of the boss without Lock On, well, very hard anyway.
I agree the part that boss could've been as good with dual analog, but the bosses in MP weren't designed for that.
And scanning is a good thing, it adds depth and story without cut-scenes and such. If someone only want to go from start to finish without knowing the story, he could. I read every pirates log I find, and Chozo Lore, etc. It's just more interesting that way. I tend to be on the slow side too.
The Faceless Master
Member
seriously... wtf?Heliocentric said:
i'm not saying that i want controls *only the way i play*
i'm saying it should have a controller config...
hopefully an in-depth one like timesplitters 2 or red faction 2...
besides, alot of fps games have that option to set walk and turn on the same stick like prime... just in case...
and why does everyone keep talking about how it's an adventure, not a shooter?
'dual analog' controls make it easier to look around period while you are moving
GUESS WHAT!!?!?
that means it's easier to have your adventure without having to stop just to look around!
dual analog = easier to move around and look around in a 3d environment from a first person perspective
why do people keep bringing up shooting?
i'm talking about just WALKING AROUND BEING TOO COMPLICATED WITH ONE STICK!!!
its like its some sort of dumbass form letter argument where everyone who doesnt like prime control is some sort of xbox fanboy or pc zombie
i guess alot of people missed the part where i said animal crossing = 2002 goty when everyone was saying it was metroid prime... i wonder what kind of fanboy that statement makes me...
or maybe it's because i don't like wavebirds...
and yes, prime is the worst metroid by far... until prime 2...
can't wait for animal crossing ds...
OG_Original Gamer
Member
So what do you do about the dash. How will I be able to avoid damage from the Beetle, the large mini boss version. The only weak spot is the tail or abdomen.
Buggy Loop said:
Well, they could just tone down the frequency of beam and visor switching. I wouldn't mind at all, to be frank. And I don't think it would make it any less "Metroid". I mean, I can't recall switching beams a lot in the previous games. Maybe less "Prime".
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
Kiriku said:Well, they could just tone down the frequency of beam and visor switching. I wouldn't mind at all, to be frank. And I don't think it would make it any less "Metroid". I mean, I can't recall switching beams a lot in the previous games. Maybe less "Prime".
What about the triggers used for shooting? Think how furiously you tapped the A button in metroid prime, do you think it would work as fine with analog triggers? On DS2 it wouldnt be a problem, that controller has perfect triggers for an FPS game, but GC's pad.. no
disabledHeliocentric
Member
The Faceless Master said:
I think aside from maybe Ninja Gaiden it is the best action/adventure title this generation.
I found the controls to be fantastic. Not just good, but fantastic. I had no problem looking around. I smell sour grapes. If R&D1 had made a 3rd person console Metroid, or if this had used Dual Analog I'd definately give it a chance and be open minded. But this didn't happen and I can live with this. I can embrace this. At least there are new Metroid games after 8+years. And they are among the best games this gen if not ever.
And I stand by my comment that most of the people who are bashing Prime own an xbox but do not own a gamecube and are somehow threatened by it due to their allegiance to Halo. I'm not saying EVERYBODY. I'm not saying YOU. But I get this impression by and large.