Metroid Prime Trilogy |OT|
- Thread starter Captain N
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It's really funny how much criticism MP1 got on this forum during its launch. Most of it directed at the scanning, but just as much at the control scheme. I didn't mind it at the time, but having re-experienced MP1 now with true WASD-esque strafing and aiming, it's such a fucking delight.
Thread is too big to sift through, but has anyone chimed in as being a total MP1 hater originally due to the GC controls, now a convert?
Thread is too big to sift through, but has anyone chimed in as being a total MP1 hater originally due to the GC controls, now a convert?
Yaceka said:
Pardon me for being confused by this:
I found what I was looking for; I was thinking of an article that wasn't even on IGN.
Did anyone else have trouble registering hits on Alpha Blogg in MP2?
I can't remember if I had that much trouble on the GameCube, but I died because I couldn't seem to hit him directly in the mouth. It took 7 or 8 shots just to get it to count. What a pain in the ass.
He's the fish boss right after you get the Gravity Boost.
evilromero
Member
Mp2 is just so compelling. It's one of those games where you lose your appetite and all sense of time.
scitek said:
you can scan him in the containment tank when you're going towards the roon where the fight takes place before you get the gravity boost. in the circular room, just look into the middle section and scan him.
wtf? there's assloads of enemies like that in mp2 and mp3. pirate turrets, floating energy sacs at the beginning of torvus, dark energy sacs while fighting chykka, ing webs blocking the road, ing thing blocking the door and a few others i don't recall atm and this is just mp2. mp3 has an assload of pirate variations (come on, just add a shield, armor or both and they're a new enemy for all 4 variations), some shriekbats in the pirate homeworld (i missed these dicks the first time i was scanning everything) and other minor enemies i forgot. the countless pirate variations are the most annoying because lots of them come in the middle of pirate assaults where you have to worry about surviving.
So after I finished 1 I started 2 and well, it still sucks as hard as it did back then. I'm not sure why but the atmosphere of Prime 1 just isn't there. The first area of the game(Agon Wastes) just feels like a drag. I guess that's why people dislike it. The Agon Wastes is pretty boring overall and that's the first area you encounter. I also don't like the redesign of the Space Pirates, they look weird and fucked up compared to Prime 1. I guess I'll just keep playing till I reach the better parts
.
I noticed the difference in quality between Prime and Prime 2 back when the second game launched but playing them back to back and it hit me like a brick.
Sanctuary fortress omg
I noticed the difference in quality between Prime and Prime 2 back when the second game launched but playing them back to back and it hit me like a brick.
Bullshit! Prime 2 nails atmosphere better than the first game did. Maybe Agon Wastes isn't the best area of the game, but Temple Grounds, Torvus Bog, and Sanctuary Fortress are all so well executed. There are soooo many more little details in the environment in Prime 2.
Complaints about the dark world and the 3-spoke wheel design aren't so bad, but you can tell that Retro just got better as a studio with the second game. So many things improved that people don't mention. Art design, boss battles, item placement, etc.
Complaints about the dark world and the 3-spoke wheel design aren't so bad, but you can tell that Retro just got better as a studio with the second game. So many things improved that people don't mention. Art design, boss battles, item placement, etc.
wackojackosnose
Member
scitek said:
Is this the guy with no save point close by (I played it ages ago on the GC)? The one where you had to play ~10 minutes just to get to him? Man he was a pain in the ass! I was beating him quite easily until I realised that if I lost this fight, I'd have to waste another 10 minutes travelling to him and would have to do the fight again. The pressure got to me so much that I lost my shot making composure and dropped from almost full health to my last energy tanker, even though he had less than a third of energy left and such an obvious attack pattern. Managed to beat him with under 50 energy points to spare though. He was definitely the worst boss in the game for me.
wackojackosnose said:
Yup, that's the one. They completely cut you off from the nearest save station after you hit the last switch that lets you access the boss. Total garbage, especially since I actually died and had to get back to him again. There aren't any more like that, are there? I can't remember.
Joei
Member
Brandon F said:
I'll let you know my opinion this weekend. I've played through MP1, and while the environment and feel for the game was Metroid enough for me, I absolute hate the controls of the game. I hated using the GC controller for that game with a burning passion. I'm not even sure how I completed it, but I did. That said, I've always wanted to try out MP3 with the new control scheme and when I saw the TRU buy 1 get 1 half-off deal a few weeks ago (also picked up Super Paper Mario), I had to jump on it. However, I haven't cracked open the Trilogy yet since I've been so preoccupied with Batman: AA, but I am planning on playing it this weekend.
You see, that's why MP2 is so shitty. The just sat around a table and said: "So how are we going to piss of our players?". "Health draining - check, savestations far away from bosses - check, fetch quest - check, another fetch quest - check, more complex level design - check, boring visuals for the dark world - check, did we forgot anything?"scitek said:
Yeah, normally I would have kept it on like I did in MP3, but a lot of the bosses in MP1 at least really require you to be dead on with your shots.ZealousD said:
Like the hive boss for the missile launcher for example, I died on that boss twice until I took off lock on free aim.
wackojackosnose
Member
scitek said:
Yes, this motherfucking fish is the only one like that in ALL of the Prime games. The bosses can beat me, crush me, insert various instruments into my tight tight rectum and I won't care how unfair it feels if there's a (re)play save station near by, but if they make me travel ~10 minutes just to get my ass handed to me and then make me replay the whole 10+ minutes again that really is taking the piss.
scitek said:
Not exactly a boss, but there's morph ball fight (non guardian) in Sanctuary fortress within a cylinder machine with three or four levels that caught me completely by surprise. I wasn't at anywhere near full health and had no idea what the hell I was supposed to do for half the fight.
I finished the game for the first time last night, and my thoughts are not good. It's like Retro forgot all the good game design elements from the first game and jammed as much complex over the top stuff into the sequel with no restraint or forethought. I may elaborate on details later, but right now I'm still pretty disappointed in it.
Prime 1: 10/10
Echoes: 6.5/10
Corruption: 8.5/10
The Hermit
Member
DavidDayton said:
The water droid was unique? Well, at least it doesn´t self-destruct in seconds like the Shriekbat. In my first playtrough I wasn't even aware such enemy existed :/
At least I scanned him now...
I agree and I'm interested to hear your thoughts about that, but still I'd rate them:BorkBork said:
Prime: 99/100 (this has Phendrana Drifts so it wins and I'll forgive Retro the more rushed Phazon Mines)
Echoes: 90/100 (Sanctuary fortress makes up for a lot and Torvus Bog is great too, without that the game would be lost but with it omg)
Corruption: 98/100(perfect pacing is what makes this game shine, although I wasn't a fan of the seperate planet thing and the
tribute to Phendrana, Skytown and Space Pirate world are almost up there with the best from MP1
jaundicejuice
Member
OMG Aero said:
I've kept the lock on free aim and haven't really had any problems playing through the first Prime up to and past Thardus, I'm only doing a normal difficulty play through though. I'm not going to say it didn't take any adjustments, I find that lock on consistently offsets your aiming reticle, you'll free aim at an enemy, lock on to that enemy and the reticle will shift further in the direction you initially looked but it's easy enough compensate for and, I find, rewarding. It's not often your attacked by a gaggle of enemies but it's useful for the few instances you are.
[Nintex] said:
Health draining - Stops being an issue after you get the dark suit. The health adding, something people don't mention, can help quite a bit during certain boss battles.
Savestation away from the bosses - ONLY with the Alpha Bogg
2 fetch quests - False. There's only one key quest. Yes, there's two parts to each clue, but if you find all the dead luminoth during your normal run through (and you'll easily run into all but 2 or 3 of them) than the first parts are irrelevant.
Complex level design - FALSE. The overall world of Echoes is so much easier to understand. heres a graff
Metroid Prime 1: You have 3 different elevators that connect the Tallon Overworld and Chozo Ruins. The two elevators in the right part of Chozo there that both lead to Tallon can lead to some confusion. Getting to Phendrana from the Overworld or the mines involves hitting two elevators, which means you really need to plan your path in advance. It took me quite some time to get this layout memorized.
Metroid Prime 2: Look how much more organized that is! If you need to get anywhere, you just hop into one elevator! It's all connected and easy to understand.
Boring visuals for dark world - GTFO! Compare them to either Magmoor Caverns or the Phazon Mines and I'll choose Dark Aether anyday. There's still lots of little details and the way they morph the environment to sorta match the light world, but not quite, is great. Maybe you just don't like the foreboding, dark atmosphere, but Dark Aether isn't boring.
Edit: Case in point, almost forgot the Tallon-Magmoor elevator.
plagiarize
Banned
my main criticism about the dark world in MP2 isn't that it's badly designed, it isn't. i thought it was really striking, it's that when compared to the light world versions of the different areas, the dark world is so much more uniform. that's where i'd call it boring. it's not exactly true, but it's much closer to being true to say once you've seen one of the areas in the dark world you've seen them all, than it would be to say the same thing about the light world.ZealousD said:
the dark world versions of the areas just aren't nearly as distinct as the light world versions. when you spend a tonne of time there getting the dark world keys... it just all blurs together.
wackojackosnose
Member
ZealousD said:
Ehhh... I wasn't particularly enamoured with the 1st two areas of Echoes; they were very reminiscent of Prime 1 from what my (failing) memory tells me. I still think Echoes > Prime 1 though, with Corruption being marked on an entirely different chart from it's two predecessors because it is such a different game.
plagiarize said:
Yeah, all the dark world stuff has a consistent purple/red/black theme to it, that's true. But even though the coloration is the same, they still contain the unique layouts and designs of each individual area.
I never really spent a ton of time for the key search. Maybe just an hour or two, and I was picking up missed items during the process.
It slows the game down though, you just stand there waiting for your health to refill after an intense battle that takes a while.ZealousD said:
Savestations are far and in between luckily they tweaked some stuff because even the most simple enemy takes up way to much hits.
A key quest for each area and one at the end with a cherry on top.
It's also shitty that you can't see some keys without a certain visor and I think there's also one hidden in acid
It's not the elevator stuff but the actual rooms, up to 8 doors connecting to hallways, just look at the map of Torvus Bog. There's a good chance you're looking at the wrong floor, doors right above each other in Dark Agon Wastes what the hell.
You can just look at the map in MP1 to find out where you need to go, in MP2 the map is useless.
Magmoor was more of a cavern connecting Phendrana to the Chozo Ruins but I'll give you the mines. Anyway, the dark world looks so boring because it's all purple and brownish with a few light beacons placed around. Not to mention they just closed some doors, put down some random rubble and called it a day.
[Nintex] said:
The only time I ever did this was the first time I played through Agon Wastes. Either you aren't using your dark/light ammo effectively or you aren't speeding up the process by popping the different item canisters.
Confirmed. You aren't using the other beams effectively.
.
I never understood why people complained about the 3 keys per area. You pick them up while going through the level. They're on the way. It's not a fetch quest if you pick them up while doing your normal stuff. Do you complain about collecting missles too?
Also, all the dark temple keys require the dark visor, which is obtained after beating Chykka. If you're trying to collect keys before finishing Torvus, you're doing it wrong. The acid problems are irrelevant if you have the light suit, which you should be getting right after completing sanctuary fortress. Several keys are actually in acid.
I can't remember 8 doors in a room. I remember the tall room in Torvus having 6 and the reactor in Sanctuary having 5. Where's 8? Even then, those two rooms are in clear segments. Also, the same complaint about the map of Torvus Bog could be applied to the Phazon Mines map.
WHAT? I have no idea what you're talking about. How is it "useless"?
So you're implying that Magmoor is superfluous? A useless area? You're not making a good argument here.
I can do this too! Chozo Ruins is nothing but tan! Magmoor Caverns is nothing but red! Phendrana is nothing but white and a metal area!
For me personally, I ask myself this simple question: What made the first part of Echoes enjoyable, and what changed to make it unenjoyable in the second half?
Monotonous Complexity: I think a lot of the frustration came from my feeling that there was a lot of detraction by addition. It didnt need to be that complicated, and I get the sense that Retro was trying to go bigger and badder without realizing that approach may not always be a good thing. Prime struck a great balance between a big cohesive world and a navigable one. I was obviously fine in the beginning in Echoes, but as the game went on, it got less and less managable, until I just gave up and looked at the map all the time on where to go instead of intuitively learning the paths, something I do well in Super Metroid and in Prime.
I honestly think that nixing one third of the total rooms in the game (and the dark world) would have streamlined the experience immensely. Do I really need to run through 3 areas to get to an elevator? Or do a morph ball sequence to get to and from an energy controller area? What do you mean I cant get to the dark world room I want to from this portal?! Theres so much redundancy that it overwhelmed the areas that are supposed to hold my interest. And Im probably one of the few people that was underwhelmed by Sanctuary fortress. Ive always preferred the organic Metroid environments. Mechanical ones tend to be stale, sterile and repetitive, no matter how many fancy textures you throw on the walls.
Risk vs. Reward:I honestly cant believe what they did in the second half of the game. I would get a powerup and be totally eager to test it out on the last place I remember. On more than one occasion, I would access a new area only to be blocked again by another required powerup. I got nothing for my troubles, and would have to sit there and rethink where I needed to go again. Again, exercises in frustration through poor pacing.
Another issue is that the reward often does not justify the investment in time and effort. There are a lot of instances where its literally a ten minute puzzle and all I get at the end is a missile expansion. Another one where I had to endure probably 5 loading portals back and forth to get one powerup. But then an energy tank sits right in your path. Weirdness.
Keys: A lot of people bitch about the keys, and I think its justified. It doesn't help that you basically need the light suit in order to get anywhere on the quest, whereas in Prime, you can pretty much start picking stuff up half way through the game. The clues were not as retarded either. On a tangent: I know I'm in the minority in this, I really really hate the inventory system in Echoes.
Equipment: I dont even want to get into the equipment. Every piece of equipment in Prime 1 was used to great effect. Enemies had weaknesses to beams, visor use was strategic on more than one occasion and boss fight. I cant say that for Echoes. Why did they even put the annihilator beam in? To ping sounds and to open like two doors? Because thats all I used it for. The dark visor is a cheap limiting version of the x-ray visor, and the sonic visor is annoying to use, ugly to look at, and next to useless outside of one boss fight. (Final Dark Samus fight could have been using the Dark Visor with no difference in strategy)
Storyline: Many people already stated this, but the Luminoth/Ing saga are completely boring. It had potential, if the Luminoth werent such a bunch of idiots and the Ing had some sort of evil intelligence (it would have been cool to read their logs). Isnt it sad when the most entertaining bit were logs concerning the Space Pirates, who are pretty much non-existent in the storyline after the first few hours? Heck, most of the fun details are completely dropped in the second half. I also felt the Phazon portions were really awkwardly shoehorned in, but whatever.
Despite my rant, there were individual elements that really really impressed me. The music overall was great, many non-Ing creatures were absolutely stunning (the grenchler is probably my favorite beast in the Prime trilogy), and the boss fights were fun for the most part. But as a cohesive gaming experience, Echoes falls short, which is doubly disappointing given the pedigree of its predecessor. Hate to be harsh, but Im not sorry I gave up on the game 5 years ago.
Monotonous Complexity: I think a lot of the frustration came from my feeling that there was a lot of detraction by addition. It didnt need to be that complicated, and I get the sense that Retro was trying to go bigger and badder without realizing that approach may not always be a good thing. Prime struck a great balance between a big cohesive world and a navigable one. I was obviously fine in the beginning in Echoes, but as the game went on, it got less and less managable, until I just gave up and looked at the map all the time on where to go instead of intuitively learning the paths, something I do well in Super Metroid and in Prime.
I honestly think that nixing one third of the total rooms in the game (and the dark world) would have streamlined the experience immensely. Do I really need to run through 3 areas to get to an elevator? Or do a morph ball sequence to get to and from an energy controller area? What do you mean I cant get to the dark world room I want to from this portal?! Theres so much redundancy that it overwhelmed the areas that are supposed to hold my interest. And Im probably one of the few people that was underwhelmed by Sanctuary fortress. Ive always preferred the organic Metroid environments. Mechanical ones tend to be stale, sterile and repetitive, no matter how many fancy textures you throw on the walls.
Risk vs. Reward:I honestly cant believe what they did in the second half of the game. I would get a powerup and be totally eager to test it out on the last place I remember. On more than one occasion, I would access a new area only to be blocked again by another required powerup. I got nothing for my troubles, and would have to sit there and rethink where I needed to go again. Again, exercises in frustration through poor pacing.
Another issue is that the reward often does not justify the investment in time and effort. There are a lot of instances where its literally a ten minute puzzle and all I get at the end is a missile expansion. Another one where I had to endure probably 5 loading portals back and forth to get one powerup. But then an energy tank sits right in your path. Weirdness.
Keys: A lot of people bitch about the keys, and I think its justified. It doesn't help that you basically need the light suit in order to get anywhere on the quest, whereas in Prime, you can pretty much start picking stuff up half way through the game. The clues were not as retarded either. On a tangent: I know I'm in the minority in this, I really really hate the inventory system in Echoes.
Equipment: I dont even want to get into the equipment. Every piece of equipment in Prime 1 was used to great effect. Enemies had weaknesses to beams, visor use was strategic on more than one occasion and boss fight. I cant say that for Echoes. Why did they even put the annihilator beam in? To ping sounds and to open like two doors? Because thats all I used it for. The dark visor is a cheap limiting version of the x-ray visor, and the sonic visor is annoying to use, ugly to look at, and next to useless outside of one boss fight. (Final Dark Samus fight could have been using the Dark Visor with no difference in strategy)
Storyline: Many people already stated this, but the Luminoth/Ing saga are completely boring. It had potential, if the Luminoth werent such a bunch of idiots and the Ing had some sort of evil intelligence (it would have been cool to read their logs). Isnt it sad when the most entertaining bit were logs concerning the Space Pirates, who are pretty much non-existent in the storyline after the first few hours? Heck, most of the fun details are completely dropped in the second half. I also felt the Phazon portions were really awkwardly shoehorned in, but whatever.
Despite my rant, there were individual elements that really really impressed me. The music overall was great, many non-Ing creatures were absolutely stunning (the grenchler is probably my favorite beast in the Prime trilogy), and the boss fights were fun for the most part. But as a cohesive gaming experience, Echoes falls short, which is doubly disappointing given the pedigree of its predecessor. Hate to be harsh, but Im not sorry I gave up on the game 5 years ago.
evilromero
Member
Ok wtf will Alpha Blogg in Trilogy. He was never this difficult in Prime 2 originally. Something is wrong with the quick strafe. It doesn't seem to respond fast enough and as a result he just barely hits me even when I jump early.
Giolon
Member
I agree with every single one of BorkBork's reasons. I'd also add that ZealousD's area graphs aptly demonstrate what I loved about MP1's level design and hated about MP2's level design so much.
Metroid Prime 1 felt like a real place, and had a very organic feel in how everything was connected (Tallon Overworld was at the top, you went down to Chozo Ruins, down further to Magmoor caverns, up to Phendranha Drift which sat over the caverns, and then the Phazon Mines which went down from the other side of Tallon Overworld and consequently met up with the other side of Magmoor -- beatiful!) Metroid Prime 2 is an extremely artificial spoke-hub world design where every area connects to every other, and yet it was more than twice the pain in the ass to traverse.
Metroid Prime 1 felt like a real place, and had a very organic feel in how everything was connected (Tallon Overworld was at the top, you went down to Chozo Ruins, down further to Magmoor caverns, up to Phendranha Drift which sat over the caverns, and then the Phazon Mines which went down from the other side of Tallon Overworld and consequently met up with the other side of Magmoor -- beatiful!) Metroid Prime 2 is an extremely artificial spoke-hub world design where every area connects to every other, and yet it was more than twice the pain in the ass to traverse.
lostinblue
Banned
So... Metroid Prime 2 continues being considered the bastard child of the triology?
A shame, a shame. I hoped time to let it settle would make people realize how great it really was... But... it wasn't Prime 1, thankfully... instead it was Prime 2.
I think the game is meant to be what it is, a darked metroid with light and shadow world that further tests the gamer patience, by not being as streamlined and having a steeper dificulty curve... But it's all good.
Criticizable? yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a mistake in the teams eyes, to make it that way.
A shame, a shame. I hoped time to let it settle would make people realize how great it really was... But... it wasn't Prime 1, thankfully... instead it was Prime 2.
I think the game is meant to be what it is, a darked metroid with light and shadow world that further tests the gamer patience, by not being as streamlined and having a steeper dificulty curve... But it's all good.
Criticizable? yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a mistake in the teams eyes, to make it that way.
Exactly. To me Echoes felt too "structured". The flow of the game didn't feel as natural as Prime or any other Metroid game (bar Fusion, I guess). Visit an area, go to its temple thing, go to the dark world for the keys, kill boss, return energy, rinse and repeat. It felt like a fucking Zelda game.Giolon said:
In the other Metroid games you're just thrown into the world and you have to figure out where to go yourself. The times where you did have to back track in Echoes felt out of place because of the overarching game structure.
(Don't think I don't like Echoes though, I looooove it. That said, "worst" of the trilogy).
Until I had come back to Metroid Prime 1 in the trilogy, I actually thought the Prime 2 logs were more memorable then the other games.BorkBork said:
The Space Pirate logs were fun to read in Prime 2 because they basically consisted of them getting destroyed by Samus, them getting destroyed by Dark Samus and them getting destroyed by trying to recreate Samus' weapons.
Desiato said:
Interesting Premise: Echoes became a bit of a Zelda clone. But Zelda games all manage to have really good pacing. Dungeons can be completed in one session (Echoes felt like a giant slog to be quite honest), and there are interludes of exploration with newly accquired tools with minimal backtracking. "Keys" are generally obtained within the context of the dungeon without going off on a tangent (except for Wind Waker of course, and that was something that was heavily criticized).
OMG Aero said:
Space Pirate logs were totally the highlight. You almost feel sorry for them. Prime 1 had some hilarious Pirate logs too. The one with the morph ball experimentation comes immediately to mind.
BorkBork said:
This sounds like an individual thing. Personally, I think the way they streamlined the overall layout of the game in Prime 2 helps me a lot. In Prime, sometimes you really have to plan your routes far in advance. For example, the first thing you want to do when you get the ice beam is go into the wrecked ship. Then you find out you're stuck and you need the gravity suit. Well crap, what's the fastest way to get to Phendrana Drifts, the area on the whole other side of the world? Which elevators do I take? There's like a billion different paths! I never felt like the world in Echoes was really much more complicated. Sure, you don't have anything like Magmoor where it's basically a single corridor, but every area was manageable I thought.
I can't remember any specific areas like this, except for the sheer number of times you run into power bomb areas before you can eventually get it.
I can't think of any 10 minute puzzles. The most extreme is in the S shaped room in Sanctuary Fortress, and I think that's probably more like a 4-5 minute puzzle at the max.
I agree that being able to start the quest earlier in Prime is great. But some of the artifacts in Prime 1 are really out of the way. For example, you have to do the whole bottom portion of the Phazon Mines all over again to get that one artifact. And one thing that people don't mention is that you can't get all of the clues at once in the first game. That was a real annoyance for me the first time I played through the first game.
I felt the color coded enemies in Prime were a weak point. The explanation is that they reverse engineered your beam weapons, but in fact they all fire the same power beam? I think it felt totally arbitrary. The dark visor is actually pretty useful for some enemies, most especially the phasing space pirates that pop up about halfway through the game. I actually like the dark visor better, because the red highlighting is better for exposing hidden objects and enemies. Plus, I think it's easier to see the game with it than with the x-ray visor.
I agree, but I don't play Metroid for the story.
And I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Even if you have small complaints about individual elements, like a single tough morphball puzzle or a boss, I think that saying that Echoes "sucks" or is on a completely different tier from the original is overreacting. The graphics were better. Art design was better. The overworld made more sense. Some of the best bossfights in the series (had some of the worst too, but the trilogy rectified that). Better enemy design. Scanning was improved. Expansions are easier to find. While I wouldn't go so far as to say Echoes was better than the first game, I just wish people didn't focus so much on the negatives. There's a lot to like about Echoes and I don't think it makes sense to sweat the small stuff.
magicalsoundshower
Member
I agree here, it might have been a cool idea if they had been used sparingly but the entire Phazon Mines were crawling with them which was quite annoying. Was there an explanation for the color-coded Fission Metroids which were just as annoying, by the way? If there is, I might have missed it, I'm not the most thorough person when it comes to scanning and "collecting" lore.ZealousD said:
Davey Cakes
Member
Sadly, yes, even though I honestly think that (even though NONE of the MP games deserves the be described as a "bastard child") Metroid Prime 3 better fits that bill.lostinblue said:
I played through and loved Echoes back in 2004 without a single thought of the "complaints" that people have about the game. Yeah, I didn't prefer it over MP1, but that lack of preference didn't mean that the game was so much worse, either.
It's simply the difference between a 10/10 and a 9/10.
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