I don't think there's that much of an issue with how it's dealt with in Ground Zeroes, as far as we've seen. Sure, it's disturbing and even though it's not entirely explicit, it does seem to revel on it, but the characters react accordingly. The problem is that if you do stuff like this, then you cannot turn around and include this kind of shit or Naomi pole-dancing against Vamp for no real reason. And with that barely-clothed sniper woman in The Phantom Pain... we'll see.
MGSV: Ground Zeroes - Spoilers Thread - #TeamBowie
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I don't think there's that much of an issue with how it's dealt with in Ground Zeroes, as far as we've seen. Sure, it's disturbing and even though it's not entirely explicit, it does seem to revel on it, but the characters react accordingly. The problem is that if you do stuff like this, then you cannot turn around and include this kind of shit or Naomi pole-dancing against Vamp for no real reason. And with that barely-clothed sniper woman in The Phantom Pain... we'll see.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Before that. There's other sounds that come right after a cut where Skull Face rips off Paz's clothes and asks Chico to "take a taste" after comparing sex/women to food.
And that's how Kojima gets away with it.
But that's how I interpret ripping off her clothes, asking Chico "do you like what you see", saying Paz is sweet like fruit, a "man" has to know these things, time for a "taste test". "Take her now". Then the weird sexual relationship Paz has just afterwards.
It's rape.
Chico as Decoy Octopus would be a mind fuck, but think about it for a second:
That would make Chico, Ocelot, Liquid (Eli) and Psycho Mantis(Young) of the FOXHOUND unit from MGS1.
We'd only need to connect Quiet with Sniper Wolf somehow and the Code Talker with the Shaman Vulcan Raven.
That would make Chico, Ocelot, Liquid (Eli) and Psycho Mantis(Young) of the FOXHOUND unit from MGS1.
We'd only need to connect Quiet with Sniper Wolf somehow and the Code Talker with the Shaman Vulcan Raven.
With Eli (and who he supposedly is) I think Kojima might have a good angle on this.
We might see Big Boss form the FOXHOUND we end up facing in MGS1. You'd essentially form them, child soldiers, as Big Boss ('Saladin'). I mean, if Kojima cares to tie up the continuity.
EDIT:
I like the way you think, Mr. RHC.
Misterinenja
Member
Chico as Decoy Octopus would be a mind fuck, but think about it for a second:
That would make Chico, Ocelot, Liquid (Eli) and Psycho Mantis(Young) of the FOXHOUND unit from MGS1.
We'd only need to connect Quiet with Sniper Wolf somehow and the Code Talker with the Shaman Vulcan Raven.
Chico would fit the age at least based on the character design.
I think it would make perfect sense. Always being someone else allows him to run away from his pain. And it's getting likely he's Ishmael too. He's been developing into a master of disguise for nine years.
Yep. Although if some characters can merely be similar / connected is some ways to those Fox Hound members (like Quiet/Sniper Wolf and Code Talker/Vulcan Raven), I guess Skull Face could fill the Decoy Octopus slot as well.Chico as Decoy Octopus would be a mind fuck, but think about it for a second:
That would make Chico, Ocelot, Liquid (Eli) and Psycho Mantis(Young) of the FOXHOUND unit from MGS1.
We'd only need to connect Quiet with Sniper Wolf somehow and the Code Talker with the Shaman Vulcan Raven.
yeah i don't think they can follow through with the goofy shit in the main story while having such serious subject matter.
if anything the wackier parts of metal gear are going to be relegated to side ops.
jury is still out on quiet though but i've got a little faith now that i've heard the tapes. when the esrb description came out talking about an audio depiction of rape i was expecting the very worst in terms of treating the issue with care and subtlety, but they managed to pull it off in my eyes.
Chico as Decoy Octopus would be a mind fuck, but think about it for a second:
That would make Chico, Ocelot, Liquid (Eli) and Psycho Mantis(Young) of the FOXHOUND unit from MGS1.
We'd only need to connect Quiet with Sniper Wolf somehow and the Code Talker with the Shaman Vulcan Raven.
That's easy.
Quiet is Sniper Wolf's mother, Quiet gets killed by Big Boss and then BB takes in Sniper Wolf. Sniper Wolf identifies herself as a Kurd, which according to wikipedia:
Big boss going to one of those places in MGS V doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch.
http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Sniper_Wolf
Date of birth: c. 1976 – c. 1985
I remember having a really vivid dream about The Phantom Pain. You, playing as Big Boss, were perched up in a building, and you had to protect a little blonde haired girl by sniping targets as she hid and moved between the buildings. Really deserty locale.
Anyway, hopefully loose ends will be tied up.
Red Blaster
Member
everyone being related to each other is bar none one of the most annoying things in mgs canon
i sincerely hope kojima can contain himself and not pull lame shit like quiet is sniper wolf's mother
i sincerely hope kojima can contain himself and not pull lame shit like quiet is sniper wolf's mother
Indeed, I for one would welcome this development in MGSV.
I agree.
But I liked what he pulled off with The Patriots. Particularly with Donald Anderson being telegraphed in MGS3. And heck, I even liked knowing that Ocelot is genetically relevant in the franchise, especially considering that he's in almost every entry.
It's that or the other place.
Amentallica
Unconfirmed Member
That's a good hentai by those standards.
WrenchNinja
Member
This tape must be really something for everyone to be freaking out over it.
"there's a second bomb" is still dumb as fuck though. But whatever, good riddance to Paz.
"there's a second bomb" is still dumb as fuck though. But whatever, good riddance to Paz.
there are a few tapes bunched together on youtube. it's a good half an hour of material and it gets worse, and worse, and worse. really gets dark.
Palette Swap
Member
Yeah, being related feels unnecessary. If the point is just to say "these archetypes have always been around", tat doesn't mean everyone has to be everyone's dad/mom/clone.
OTOH, I really want to see the younger versions of characters when it makes sense (like Ocelot or Frank Jaeger).
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
The problem is that while the general idea is good, the execution is Star-Wars-prequels bad. The more serious Kojima's themes are, the more cheesy and cringe-worthy they appear.
Jesus, that was quite a bit darker than I expected. o -o
Good shit though. Putting a bomb there of all places was pretty smart, all things considered, and it does establish both Skull Face's keen intelligence and ruthlessness, as well as paving a path for some really fascinating character development for Chico. This is some really great stuff. Shame about Peace Walker already establishing Paz as a traitorous bitch and all, it's kinda hard to feel sorry for her after that.
I'd love to see the origins of the FOXHOUND unit in this game, so Chico being Decoy Octopus would be cool. I don't particularly care for "____ was ____'s parent!", especially in the case of the Emmerichs, but Sniper Wolf having some sort of connection to Quiet would be interesting, and getting more insight on their lives would make killing them in MGS1 even more sad.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the execution was fine considering the context.
Good shit though. Putting a bomb there of all places was pretty smart, all things considered, and it does establish both Skull Face's keen intelligence and ruthlessness, as well as paving a path for some really fascinating character development for Chico. This is some really great stuff. Shame about Peace Walker already establishing Paz as a traitorous bitch and all, it's kinda hard to feel sorry for her after that.
I'd love to see the origins of the FOXHOUND unit in this game, so Chico being Decoy Octopus would be cool. I don't particularly care for "____ was ____'s parent!", especially in the case of the Emmerichs, but Sniper Wolf having some sort of connection to Quiet would be interesting, and getting more insight on their lives would make killing them in MGS1 even more sad.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the execution was fine considering the context.
Sephiroth503
Member
Honestly it all seems unnecessarily perverse to me. A vagina bomb and a kid raping a woman? There are other ways to scar a character. For a series like Metal Gear to go off the deep end on this kind of sexual stuff, I dunno, I guess it just doesn't feel right.
He didn't write Metal Gear Rising. Or even direct it.
He didn't even have anything to do with the story of Rising or anything much at all.
What a terrible post. Factually incorrect to begin with and ends up passing judgment on a game you haven't even played, yet you can criticize it because apparently you played the other Metal Gears and read impressions about this one/listened to the tapes on YT, therefore this one can't have a serious tone to it and must be boiled down to a game about giant robots.
Bravo.
I guess, but I don't see why this is off-limits. Just because there are other ways to scar a character doesn't mean this isn't okay to write.
I thought the shit about nanomachines was horrendous, this is fine imo.
He did over see the story and it has the Kojima Productions stamp on it.
MGS has always had wacky humor in it...lol Raiden is naked, soldiers pissing on each other har har har....but when you start bring up subjects of forced sexual assault of minors, you better be damn sure you cut the wacky shit out...and judging by the sillyside missions it seems he has not cut it out.
He barely touched it and that's the name of the team. Just because some KojiPro people worked on it doesn't mean it's a Kojima game. Hence it not saying "A Hideo Kojima Game" on the cover.
What wacky shit is there in the main mission? Optional side content that doesn't have any bearing on the story matters because...?
Sephiroth503
Member
I don't think that the sexual content presented in the tapes fits the tone of Metal Gear and really only seems to be in there for shock value considering Metal Gear has traditionally been a series that has had it's fair share of not-so-serious and humourous moments. The forced sex between a child and an adult comes across as completely unnecesary if the goal is to wreck Chico's mental status. They could just as handily have had Chico's refusal to answer questions result in his comrades (other captured POWs) being shot in front of him or something.
I'm willing to judge the game on an individual basis. Not matching a pre-established series tone isn't a big deal to me, but badly juggling dissonant tones like MGS4 did is.
I'm okay with it being dark if I'm not supposed to be laughing at Johnny Sasaki shittin his pants in a cutscene ten minutes later.
ichtyander
Member
I wonder if the whole thing on the tapes as well as what we're seeing in GZ (and possibly TPP) is so extreme precisely because it's a perverse exaggeration of the events that actually transpired at that time, as in a propaganda material, records known to the public (or at least governments) about Big Boss and his supposed history.
It would also kind of bleed into the real world, like this very topic on GAF, the controversy regarding Quiet's looks, the public criticizing Kojima's work the same way the fictional public would talk about the infamous Big Boss and the horrible things him and people around him allegedly did at the time. Hell, even the transition into a more streamlined and open world gameplay system and pretty much all drastic changes in MGSV could be symbolically "explained" or "justified" by the fact that you're playing what others want you to play, a darker, edgy, action packed twist on the MGS series.
I'm not trying to make the whole rape and bomb thing look more justified or anything, it's just that the darker themes and the drastic measures of some characters kind of smell like there might be more to it, looking at the bigger picture.
It would also kind of bleed into the real world, like this very topic on GAF, the controversy regarding Quiet's looks, the public criticizing Kojima's work the same way the fictional public would talk about the infamous Big Boss and the horrible things him and people around him allegedly did at the time. Hell, even the transition into a more streamlined and open world gameplay system and pretty much all drastic changes in MGSV could be symbolically "explained" or "justified" by the fact that you're playing what others want you to play, a darker, edgy, action packed twist on the MGS series.
I'm not trying to make the whole rape and bomb thing look more justified or anything, it's just that the darker themes and the drastic measures of some characters kind of smell like there might be more to it, looking at the bigger picture.
I don't know, it's not like previous MGS titles haven't had some really dark moments in them. MGS3 was filled with them, like the brutality of the torture scene, Volgin's taste for sadism in all its forms, and the entirety of the ending. Certainly, MGS2 wasn't exempt from this either, if only for Olga's sudden and shockingly graphic death.
I agree completely. The sexual stuff in Ground Zeroes was completely unnecessary. Don't really like the tone Kojima is trying to get...
Sephiroth503
Member
The cynical side of me says these things are in here to generate discussion (and maybe controversy) about these themes in the game and deflect away from discussion of the game's brevity and slim content.
SomedayTheFire
Member
Definitely. It seems absolutely stupid and pushing the boundaries just for the sake of it.
Coffee Dog
Banned
I am reminded of the incest vagina bomb from Mark Millar's Nemesis.
There are more subtle ways for me to hate a villain than to tie a damsel to the train tracks. A shame that Kojima doesn't see that.
There are more subtle ways for me to hate a villain than to tie a damsel to the train tracks. A shame that Kojima doesn't see that.
I don't think that's really fair considering it's a major aspect of The Phantom Pain as well. It's infinitely better handled than the Drebin's BNB story-time bullshit. Actually gives insight and development to a character we care about and drives the plot forward, rather than being meaningless and arbitrary nonsense employed to add "depth", like almost all of MGS4.
As much as I adore MGS2, even that game felt ridiculous with Otacon's completely arbitrarily dark past. This is much better than that, imo.
Edit - Oh, and it helps that this kind of stuff is actually stuff that happens in real life in places like these (I mean it's horrible that these awful things happen of course but you get what I'm saying). For a base modeled after Guantanamo Bay it does make sense.
It's never necessary. But, often, it is reality. And I'd say Kojima handles it relatively well.
The 'rape' just plays into defining Skull Face as a character. A "Do this, or I'll kill you" type manipulator. I barely remember the movie, but he reminds me of the bad guy in Jack Reacher. In that film
, something like that. He also goes on a tirade, similar to Skull Face, about his harsh origins.
Hiding the bomb inside of Paz, in multiple locations, probably wasn't intended to be sexual. Rather, he doesn't give a fuck. "They won't look here, put the bomb in there". It isn't so much that he's cruel, but just that he doesn't particularly care.
I'm looking forward to seeing more of Skull Face. As far as bad guys go, Kojima has done a good job. The things he's done to members of Mother Base should induce a fist clenching anger. I can see why Kaz would want revenge.
I didn't feel like that. The motivation for Kaz and Big Boss doesn't seem to be "oh, he hurt Paz".
Skull Face just uses Paz as a means to an end. It shows how he is as a character. It doesn't matter that she's female, or defenseless, or anything like that.
The 'rape' just plays into defining Skull Face as a character. A "Do this, or I'll kill you" type manipulator. I barely remember the movie, but he reminds me of the bad guy in Jack Reacher. In that film
he tells one of his henchmen to eat one of his own fingers as punishment for a mistake
Hiding the bomb inside of Paz, in multiple locations, probably wasn't intended to be sexual. Rather, he doesn't give a fuck. "They won't look here, put the bomb in there". It isn't so much that he's cruel, but just that he doesn't particularly care.
I'm looking forward to seeing more of Skull Face. As far as bad guys go, Kojima has done a good job. The things he's done to members of Mother Base should induce a fist clenching anger. I can see why Kaz would want revenge.
I didn't feel like that. The motivation for Kaz and Big Boss doesn't seem to be "oh, he hurt Paz".
Skull Face just uses Paz as a means to an end. It shows how he is as a character. It doesn't matter that she's female, or defenseless, or anything like that.
Sephiroth503
Member
I have to disagree. I would be very surprised if rape and sex with a minor are aspects of Phantom Pain at all. I definitely feel it is in here for shock value and will happily say I was wrong if the Paz/Chico sex scene has a meaningful impact in Chico's (or maybe Skull Face's) character development but I'm not holding my breath.
I guess we'll just have to see how it turns out in the end really.
PoemOfTheLastMoment
Banned
Skullface IS volgin. I'm sure of it. You can tell by the way he walks and is introduced in the E3 2013 trailer.
Sephiroth503
Member
That would disappoint me greatly but I'm slowly coming to terms that it might be lol. There's already too much familiarity between characters in the MGS universe as is
Shadow2222
Member
I see that the Chico tapes add up to a pretty decent length. Are there other tapes, or are those the entirety of the tapes available to listen to?