Shadow2222
Member
Other than Null, how has Portable Ops been contradicted? Honestly curious.
MGSV: Ground Zeroes - Spoilers Thread - #TeamBowie
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crazyrabbits
Banned
Canon is usually defined by the creator and/or the company in charge of the IP. Fans can assign their own personal canon, but that's different. Though, like you said, canon can be superceded by later installments if it blatantly contradicts the official timeline or previous events.
Kojima seems to be reserved when it comes to shitting on stuff, so him saying Portable ops isn't canon would look disrespectful on his part, or that's what he believes anyway. His answer today felt very middling on purpose, he doesn't take Portable Ops seriously, but he doesn't want to discredit what that team did.
I don't mind if Kojima treats Portable Ops canon like this... but isn't this a little hypocritical? From MGS2-MGS4 he's been vocal about wanting to have his team make MGS games without him.
It finally happens, and it's certainly not bad at all, and he treats it like like dirt seemingly so he can make another game dwelling yet again over The Boss, in the stupidest fashion possible. I don't give much a shit about Kojima whining about "wanting to pass Metal Gear on" if this is how it works in practise.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Pretty much.
And come on guys, Metal Gear's continuity has been haphazard at best. Why are some defending PO's canon status when there's so many proof that it has been ignored?
If you're talking about Portable Ops in the bolded, its a basement tier Metal Gear game. MGS4 and Portable Ops share the same bed, and they both shat in it constantly.
I think one of the biggest ones was that at the end of Portable Ops, Gene gives Big Boss a huge stash of funds to build his own private army/fortress. It is unclear if it's Philosopher's Legacy level of $$$ but anyway fast forward to Peace Walker, and it's clear Snake is pretty much broke with a few measly soldiers lol
EmCeeGramr
Member
It's all stuff that at best could be handwaved away with "well maybe it wasn't important so nobody mentioned it..." but it's hard to seriously explain away why stuff as important as the events surrounding FOXHOUND's founding (even Miller's mention of FOXHOUND in Peace Walker conforms with MGS3's credits and not necessarily PO), the true reason for The Boss's death, the creation of the first Metal Gear, and the funds and ideas for Outer Heaven never came up in a game that was all about those things.
Kojima may eventually throw a bone to PO and mention Null or Gene or RAXA or whatever in TPP, but for now the game exists in a bizarre state where it's technically canon (for whatever that's worth) but official Kojima material blatantly ignores and disparages the game, making it non canonical in practical terms. It's roughly the same level of canon as Star Wars expanded universe products and video game tie-in novels.
"It wasn't bad" by current MGS standards.
I'm just saying Kojima is acting like a child over this, he gave them permission to make a (what was) completely canon MGS. To replace it is a dog move, and to replace it with the even more embarrassing (IMO) Peace Walker is what stinks most of all. Portable Ops team has proven it can make equally shit stories as Kojima these days so if Kojima truly does want to move on from the IP, it doesn't look like it's ever going to get better than this.
Shadow2222
Member
There are a couple of years between PO and PW, and we know Big Boss was involved in conflicts in that time period, plus the creation of the Patriots, so maybe the money went into those?
PO sets up the idea that Volgin fired the nuke under orders of someone else, which PW reveals to have been Hot Coldman, and the creation of the Patriots in the after credits dialogue.
EDIT: Ah, thanks EmCeeGramr, some of those points make sense.
PO sets up the idea that Volgin fired the nuke under orders of someone else, which PW reveals to have been Hot Coldman, and the creation of the Patriots in the after credits dialogue.
EDIT: Ah, thanks EmCeeGramr, some of those points make sense.
The Silver
Member
Portable Ops hasn't been "contradicted" to the extent MG 1/2 have and they are still canon, even MGS1 has been contradicted, Kojima said himself he'll play fast and loose with canon stuff if he has to to tell his story.
All of the stuff PW does to "contradict" PO can be interpreted in different ways,(i.e BB simply quickly burning through the money Gene gave him, not mentioning Raxa isn't the same as saying Peace Walker was the first MG, thus blatantly contradicting PO)
There's nothing in the game that renders PO impossible to have occurred, that's what I mean by a blatant contradiction.
All of the stuff PW does to "contradict" PO can be interpreted in different ways,(i.e BB simply quickly burning through the money Gene gave him, not mentioning Raxa isn't the same as saying Peace Walker was the first MG, thus blatantly contradicting PO)
There's nothing in the game that renders PO impossible to have occurred, that's what I mean by a blatant contradiction.
Aaaanyway...I'm watching this one dude's play through of one of the side missions on YouTube. Somehow he's gone under the radar for a couple days now with four videos out. At one point he gets spotted by a dude and tranqs him in the head in slo mo. But when slo mo ends, the area is on alert. With all the detail Kojima throws in these games, I really wish the enemies had to pull out a walkie or something before alert status is just magically there. It would add an extra layer of fucking around to the proceedings as well. Shoot it on his hip, shoot his hand so he can't use it. Shoot the walkie in his hand in slo mo. Things like that.
Why so bitter and cynical? Portable Ops gameplay wise is trash and MGS4 on a narrative level is radioactive trash. If Kojima could comfortably move away from Metal Gear as a whole, he would. Whenever he starts to step away the team that gets assigned for a future Metal Gear project stumbles around long enough for Kojima having to come in and be involved. Is that because of spotty leadership? Is Konami really bad at helping and supplying their developers? Who knows.
Ground Zeros outclasses MGS4 in both narrative and gameplay. Phantom Pain has the potential to wash MGS4 and Portable Ops away completely.
If compared to MGS 1-3, Portable Ops is on some Devil May Cry 2 shit. You'll have to explain yourself more for me to take that statement seriously. If you meant by MGS4 standards, then yeah, Portable Ops is okay.
EmCeeGramr
Member
The half of the Legacy that Ocelot stole in MGS3 was what set up the The Patriots. "Maybe BB spent all he got from Gene" seems like a pretty lame excuse when it was clearly meant to foreshadow Outer Heaven.
And it's been a while, but I vaguely recall some detail about Granin's plans that was mentioned in a tape with Huey that made it seem unlikely or illogical that Sokolov also got access to them in the manner described in PO. Like, Huey got access to the original handwritten manuscripts from Coldman that the CIA had held in secret since Snake Eater or something like that, though I could be wrong.
Metal Gear 1 and 2 have had details retconned to hell and back, but the general events of Outer Heaven and Zanzibarland have been consistently acknowledged in the games as happening.
And it's been a while, but I vaguely recall some detail about Granin's plans that was mentioned in a tape with Huey that made it seem unlikely or illogical that Sokolov also got access to them in the manner described in PO. Like, Huey got access to the original handwritten manuscripts from Coldman that the CIA had held in secret since Snake Eater or something like that, though I could be wrong.
Metal Gear 1 and 2 have had details retconned to hell and back, but the general events of Outer Heaven and Zanzibarland have been consistently acknowledged in the games as happening.
I don't know about that one. The game says he was the guy in charge for Snake Eater, but beyond that...
For one thing, like EmCeeGramr pointed out above, you'd expect Snake to react or at the very least bring the subject up, if Coldman was the big bad mastermind who sent the Boss to her death in the first place.
And then, Coldman wanted Peace Walker to be operational, right? And the missing piece for the AI was the real reason for the Boss's betrayal, if I remember well? That's what Strangelove was trying to get out of Snake when she was interrogating him, but Coldman should have be well aware of what had really happened already, if he was behind everything...
Those are still acknowledged/referenced fairly often though.
Probably because having details that get in the way if the story Kojima wants to tell is normal. MG1 and 2 have details which are ignored or completely contradicted and are still considered canon as is MGS1.
Ultimately whatever Kojima says is what it is, but even if you want to ignore that I'm fairly certain that MGS4 had a flashback to some portable Ops stuff and that PO also established Zero as the head of the Patriots. Although you guys can correct me if I'm mistaken.
It was foreshadowed, yeah. "Same codename as Null".
In MGS2 and 3 they did this... ahh those moments were so panicy and fun, too. Then in MGS4 it was "SOP/nanomachines"
Yeah I loved that in 2. You could even shoot the walkie-talkie and stop them from calling for back up. I think in 2 you could even shoot the exclamation point over thier head and cause them to space out instead of going into alert.
The difference between Big Boss and Miller's voice can sometimes be very difficult to notice. There are times that I couldn't figure out if it is Big Boss or Miller talking.
The Silver
Member
Kojima can get away with not referencing PO because nothing incredibly important happened in that game, as he said himself it wasn't a main story.
Really the only thing from MG1/2 that still gets referenced and hasn't been contradicted or retconned is the big event that's impossible to ignore, the fact that Solid Snake defeated Big Boss in some way.
The man himself said it's canon so it is, even if nothing in the game never gets mentioned again it won't change the fact it happened until Kojima says it didn't or its contradicted to the point where the events literally could not have happened.
Really the only thing from MG1/2 that still gets referenced and hasn't been contradicted or retconned is the big event that's impossible to ignore, the fact that Solid Snake defeated Big Boss in some way.
The man himself said it's canon so it is, even if nothing in the game never gets mentioned again it won't change the fact it happened until Kojima says it didn't or its contradicted to the point where the events literally could not have happened.
Sorry, yeah I was talking about MGS4 + Peace Walker. Though I suppose I take what I said back, because Kojima still has healthy ambitions for MGS gameplay. I have a bad feeling about Phantom Pain's plot (even though I was moved during the Paz tapes) but it's not like I have the evidence yet to back this feeling up. Good feelings about MGSV's gameplay.
I understand what you mean now. Thanks for the clarification.
nhlducks35
Member
THEY PLAYED US LIKE A DAMN FIDDLE
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Really ?
Maybe it's just me but Keifer's voice is very distinct. Maybe not as distinct as Hayter's, but he sounds more 'seasoned' ..
as someone said before, it's a good half-way point between Hayter and Richard Doyle (MGS4 big boss).
Yeah, i was going that too. I dislike that Big Boss only says like 3 words when he does talk. Feels off and Keifer almost sounds like he personally doesn't care.
Honestly, I feel it's because MGS is finally learning "less is more."
valentine71
Banned
While i was very disappointed with Hayter being out of this one, it really didn't bother me when i played the game. It definetely is a new Metal Gear. New as a revolution. Both in terms of gameplay and the story telling. Still i would have loved Richard Doyle as well, i really liked his performance in MGS4. But Kiefer is cool too imo.
But still i believe Kiefer voicing Big Boss is i believe have something to do with Solidus(could be Hayter). Eli could be Liquid but he might be Raiden too i believe. Also we know Solidus have higher accelareted aging than Liquid or Solid. Seeing Solidus looking like in his late 20s or early 30s wouldn't be suprising to me honestly since he looked in late 50s in MGS2. Sorry about telling those in the spoiler thread but after finishing Ground Zeroes, i just thought about this.
Back to Ground Zeroes, i really love what they have turned the series into. More serious storytelling, less cheeky stuff. Much more freedom in terms of gameplay. I have been a fan of Metal Gear series since the first Solid game and played and finished nearly all of them but still, where the series is going is a better place than before.....
IT'S NOT RIGHT, THAT WAS OURS.
Also, regarding Portable Ops, the establishment of FOXHOUND was already canon via the earlier game's timelines.
Gun Animal
Member
Yeah there's definitely something off with they way Kiefer is reading his lines, it reminds me of Quentin Flynn's performance in MGS2. That said, Flynn upped his VA game after that and I feel like Kiefer could do the same so by no means am I counting him out. Looking forward to the future of Metal Gear, as always.
Reguarding PO, both it and Rising are "expanded universe" meaning that they're canon but are secondary to the core canon. I've also seen a distinction of hard-canon/soft-canon/non-canon for things like this. Accepting this grey area between canon and non-canon is the only way for us nerds to get along. Embrace the expanded universe, metal gear friends.
Edit: haha yes I hope Eli IS Raiden, because he didn't have enough aliases as it is. Jack "the Ripper" "White Devil" "Raiden" "Mr. Lightning Bolt" "Snake" Eli. Has anyone else noticed that MGS is probably the most alias-heavy work of fiction ever produced?
Reguarding PO, both it and Rising are "expanded universe" meaning that they're canon but are secondary to the core canon. I've also seen a distinction of hard-canon/soft-canon/non-canon for things like this. Accepting this grey area between canon and non-canon is the only way for us nerds to get along. Embrace the expanded universe, metal gear friends.
Edit: haha yes I hope Eli IS Raiden, because he didn't have enough aliases as it is. Jack "the Ripper" "White Devil" "Raiden" "Mr. Lightning Bolt" "Snake" Eli. Has anyone else noticed that MGS is probably the most alias-heavy work of fiction ever produced?
The Silver
Member
Raiden would still be a toddler in 1984, he's not Eli.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with Solidus?
everything has to be linked. Eli? that's actual the darpha chief, quiet? that's actually sniper wolfs mum.
I think Kiefer does well, actually.
It certainly isn't just Kiefer's voice. I can't see how people mistake his voice for Kaz's, either. It's far more believable that Hayter's most recent portrayals of the character.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Portable Ops is the only canon. Even MGS1 is a false continuity. There is only Gene.
The Silver
Member
I said it before but I feel Kiefer is much better suited to this game than Hayter's "cartoony" voice.
I think Hayter was really only perfect for MGS1 Solid Snake were the character was much more cold, ruthless, and unemotional.
I think Hayter was really only perfect for MGS1 Solid Snake were the character was much more cold, ruthless, and unemotional.
Gun Animal
Member
Kiefer is a talented actor, especially with a role like this. There's just several instances where he reads lines as if he has no idea what the context for them is. For all I know, that could very well be someone else's fault. It's not really a big deal.
This is nonsense and pretty much not how canons work. Take a look at the Resident Evil series if you want an example. There are several games which are flat-out never mentioned, but are entirely canon because CAPCOM say so. MPO is acknowledged in Peace Walker so it's been "done" fine.
Is MGS2 no longer canon because Big Boss's age was contradicted in MGS3? Come on. Kojima makes everything up as he goes along and openly doesn't care about retcons or plot holes.
MPO is not a main story, but it is canon. In Japanese fiction, these are typically referred to as "extra editions." Stories which have no dramatic impact on the development or outcome of the main plot, but are still part of the mythology. MPO isn't strictly ignored, it's outright referenced in Peace Walker (exactly how Resident Evil Survivor is referenced in Resident Evil Zero) but is not given a lot of attention because it's not a main story and was not written by Kojima. Yet Kojima himself openly acknowledges it as part of his own universe, which he does not do for several other games.
It is convenient that people only accept Kojima's "Word of God" when it personally suits them.
This guy gets it. Right now Kojima treats Portable Ops and Rising the same way, distinct from Ghost Babel, Mobile, etc.
You're probably thinking of the word "gaiden", but there's nothing that means "extra" or "edition" there... ^^;
Interesting choice, but "gaiden" is, like many Japanese terms, totally vague and dependent on context to determine exact meaning. It can refer to canon or non-canon works. Extra edition is a derivative term that refers specifically to canon works that don't dramatically affect the main plot.
"Another Story", another derivative term, refers specifically to non-canon stories that take place parallel (non-intersecting) to the main story, like an alternative universe. Usually these stories follow the main plot up until a certain point, then go in a different direction. The AC!D games and maybe Ghost Babel and Mobile (if it weren't for VR) fit this, Portable Ops doesn't.
Oh, right, "bangai hen". Don't know that I'd translate the "hen" into "edition" in that context, but okay.
Whoa, whoa, calm down. Sometimes, that's what it means. It really isn't that specific or clear-cut (same thing for "bangai hen", actually).
But since we're talking Japanese terms... What do you make of the word "正史" ("seishi")?
That's what it's meant every time I've encountered it. I imagine there is some leeway since Japanese can generally be pretty vague, but "Another Story" is used more for certain things than others while "Gaiden" is inherently up to the user, as it can mean side-story (may or may not be canon) or simply story.
Seishi just means history/authentic history/official history/authorized history, etc. It's not really a special term and doesn't imply anything in this case. A Kojima timeline dealing only with Kojima works isn't exactly surprising. Resident Evil does the same thing, they have dozens of timelines which cover only the main games. However, they've published ones which acknowledge the extra editions too.
Well, you got lucky. The Wikipedia article you linked to also acknowledges it's not that clear-cut.
Oh, so this one isn't specific and clear-cut, and it's not even a special term or anything. Well, that's convenient. ^_^;;
Since you use the Japanese Wikipedia...
Where did you see anything about it being a "Kojima timeline"? It says "『メタルギア』シリーズ正史".
I acknowledged it's not clear-cut... Japanese is inherently very vague.
"『メタルギア』シリーズ正史"? Metal Gear Series Official Timeline? That is a pretty regular term. It's a Kojima-sanctioned timeline he wrote everything for. Of course it's a Kojima timeline and we already know how he treats things he didn't write, canon or not.
Lollipop Dave
Member
People are just angry because Snake's Revenge isn't canon.