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[FirstInHell]

First of all, I asked you why you were unwavering in stating your opinion as fact that there have been no false positives, I didn't say that you said there weren't any false negatives, re-read my question to you.

"because they err on the side of caution"? Are you saying that perfectly fine 360s being banned would be something unprecedented and that MS would never make a mistake like that? They just made a HUGE mistake with the delivery of the H3 beta (which the Live team has taken responsibility for, RTW and Bungie are not at fault), and their consoles are getting RRoDs left right and center due to extremely shoddy manufacturing and your evidence is that "they err on the side of caution"?

Faceless Master, that's a pretty weak, baseless argument if you ask me.

I did not mod my Xbox. My Xbox is a refurb. I would bet you a million dollars that it will never be banned.

These people are the most pitiful scum of the earth. They think that the rules do not apply to them and when they get kicked in the balls for it, they bitch and moan. I wish I could swim in the river of tears that are flowing from them right now.

You get an Xbox from a factory. They all should be the same. What is it about your "friends" 360 that is causing it to be a false positive. Tell your "friend" to buy his games legitimately like the rest of us and there won't be an issue in the future.

 

[arne]

Baseless statements like the updates bricking consoles that were working perfectly previous to updating? Keep towing the party line by denying it, but we know the real deal. My point is that this Faceless Master is saying that this new mod-detection and banning initiative from MS is completely infallible and the possiblility that it in fact may have inadvertently banned a few unmodded consoles is completely out of the picture in his mind, and the fact that he won't entertain this possibility given MS's checkered past with the 360's hardware is foolish.

My "data" is my friend's unmodded 360 that got banned. I can't post a link to a verified news site that has his unmodded 360 that got banned or anything like that, but rest assured, it exists.

a) it's "toeing" -- sorry, but i've seen this used incorrectly way too many times on here.

b) updates don't brick consoles, software don't brick consoles. there was one issue, which was addressed and not swept under a rug like you claim and it wasn't "thousands and thousands" of consoles and it was a extremely unique and specific case and it had it's own specific error code and all those folks got taken care of because of that.

c) i'm never going to say that mistakes can't be made, because they do, because people can't ever account for anything. but you're claiming exactly *1* anecdotal story with the insinuation that it forebears some epidemic of false positives when the folks reading this thread have no idea on the history of your friend and his console, etc., etc. to say that a faceless master's argument is baseless is any less than your claims about how widespread this problem, if it exists, could be. *shrug*

also, you're not winning any points when it went from "a few friends" to "one friend"


i'll give you friend the benefit of the doubt because that's the way i am and, if true, i do feel bad for him. but he (and by association) you aren't in good company when a lot of the vocal majority of folks crying foul are not being wholly truthful with their circumstances and are enjoying their internet anonymity. they are spoiling it for anybody who might be affected.

also, i have no idea on security measures, % of what and how it's done, so I can't speak to what happened, how it's being done and if it's foolproof or not.

 

[ToiletofSadness]

also, i have no idea on security measures, % of what and how it's done, so I can't speak to what happened, how it's being done and if it's foolproof or not.

Suppose we'll have to wait until some intrepid hacker defeats it before we'll figure it out.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Baseless statements like the updates bricking consoles that were working perfectly previous to updating? Keep towing the party line by denying it, but we know the real deal. I am merely trying to point out that this Faceless Master is saying that this new mod-detection and banning initiative from MS is completely infallible and the possiblility that it in fact may have inadvertently banned a few unmodded consoles is completely out of the picture in his mind, and the fact that he won't entertain this possibility given MS's checkered past with the 360's hardware is foolish.

My "data" is my friend's unmodded 360 that got banned. I can't post a link to a verified news site that has his unmodded 360 that got banned or anything like that, but rest assured, it exists.

updates bricking consoles are just a part of having an updatable system that uses a flashable bootrom. it can and does happen on every updatable console or handheld.

and your data is your friend's unmodded system that is unmodded because they say so?

the last time this happened was only a few years ago, and people swore the same thing up and down and on their firstborn and mama's grave and undying love for thir high school sweetheart, and then when people figured out exactly what caused the bans, many people just admitted they lied before.

my evidence is history.

you can say all manner of things about shoddy 360 hardware.

it is.

i know.

mine died too.

it doesn't change the fact that the last time, just like this time, microsoft took their time and waited for just the right moment, struck, and despite numerous claims, when the dust settled, there were no false positives and people were exposed as liars.

this time will be no different.

some people with refurbs may unknowingly have a modded system, and yes that is microsoft's fault too, but i seriously doubt there are any false positives.

 

[arne]

Suppose we'll have to wait until some intrepid hacker defeats it before we'll figure it out.

even if I did, it's not like I would be able to share!

(but I don't)

 

[polyh3dron]

a) it's "toeing" -- sorry, but i've seen this used incorrectly way too many times on here.

b) updates don't brick consoles, software don't brick consoles. there was one issue, which was addressed and not swept under a rug like you claim and it wasn't "thousands and thousands" of consoles and it was a extremely unique and specific case and it had it's own specific error code and all those folks got taken care of because of that.

c) i'm never going to say that mistakes can't be made, because they do, because people can't ever account for anything. but you're claiming exactly *1* anecdotal story with the insinuation that it forebears some epidemic of false positives when the folks reading this thread have no idea on the history of your friend and his console, etc., etc.

i'll give you friend the benefit of the doubt because that's the way i am and, if true, i do feel bad for him. but he (and by association) you aren't in good company when a lot of the vocal majority of folks crying foul are not being wholly truthful with their circumstances and are enjoying their internet anonymity. they are spoiling it for anybody who might be affected.

also, i have no idea on security measures, % of what and how it's done, so I can't speak to what happened, how it's being done and if it's foolproof or not.

I won't bore you with the details of having to deal with the kwik-e-mart call center and the great lengths I had to go to to get my 1st console replaced for free after being bricked by the Nov 30th update, just know that it made me very disillusioned and I am far from the only one this happened to. It's an issue that has definitely been swept under the rug as I was consistently told that the failure was my fault and the update couldn't POSSIBLY have bricked my console. Any time there is a thread concerning this issue on the official Xbox Technical Issues forum (I noticed there was a new set of affected owners from the spring update) it gets moved to the Wishlist And Feedback section. If that's not sweeping the issue under the rug then I don't know what is. And of course we have Peter Moore's infamous "Y'know, things break" blow off. He's becoming more like Kutaragi by the day.

I didn't say that this issue was a widespread epidemic by any means I was just saying that I have a friend it happened to and there could be others. I was putting that possibility out there when Faceless Master told me that it was impossible. It's not like MS hasn't screwed up something on the 360 before.

 

[Hunter D]

People thnk that they are banning legit consoles? They didn't do it with the xbox and I doubt they are doing it now.

They started banning people a few months back, but even then people were complaining about being banned even though they are "innocent." MS has probably been data mining since that time just so they can start up another round of banning.

 

[polyh3dron]

updates bricking consoles are just a part of having an updatable system that uses a flashable bootrom. it can and does happen on every updatable console or handheld.

The PS3 has had quite a few updates. Have you seen any "OMGZ the update killed my PS3 oh noes" threads on the playstation forums?

 

[arne]

I won't bore you with the details of having to deal with the kwik-e-mart call center and the great lengths I had to go to to get my 1st console replaced for free after being bricked by the Nov 30th update, just know that it made me very disillusioned and I am far from the only one this happened to. It's an issue that has definitely been swept under the rug as I was consistently told that the failure was my fault and the update couldn't POSSIBLY have bricked my console. Any time there is a thread concerning this issue on the official Xbox Technical Issues forum (I noticed there was a new set of affected owners from the spring update) it gets moved to the Wishlist And Feedback section. If that's not sweeping the issue under the rug then I don't know what is. And of course we have Peter Moore's infamous "Y'know, things break" blow off. He's becoming more like Kutaragi by the day.

I didn't say that this issue was a widespread epidemic by any means I was just saying that I have a friend it happened to and there could be others. I was putting that possibility out there when Faceless Master told me that it was impossible. It's not like MS hasn't screwed up something on the 360 before.

Swept under the rug?! I don't think so: http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2006/11/01/having-an-issue-with-the-fall-update.aspx

It was the Oct 30 update I'm talking about. Nov 30 update didn't have any systemic issues -- and as you can plainly see, if there was one, it'd be handled appropriately. If you weren't part of the isolated group of people who experienced "issues relating to new or refurbished consoles failing after applying the Fall Update." within the tight timespan of 24 hours, then it wasn't a systemic issue with the update that bricked your console.

 

[LuCkymoON]

The PS3 has had quite a few updates. Have you seen any "OMGZ the update killed my PS3 oh noes" threads on the playstation forums?

Bish's PS3 was killed by an update. =S

 

[arne]

Bish's PS3 was killed by an update. =S

well, that's one right there. if PS3 updates killed that console then there must be more and "if they have collateral damage like this in doing so they should not be doing things like this."


see what I did there?

sigh.

 

[polyh3dron]

Swept under the rug?! I don't think so: http://www.majornelson.com/archive/2006/11/01/having-an-issue-with-the-fall-update.aspx

It was the Oct 30 update I'm talking about. Nov 30 update didn't have any systemic issues -- and as you can plainly see, if there was one, it'd be handled appropriately. If you weren't part of the isolated group of people who experienced "issues relating to new or refurbished consoles failing after applying the Fall Update." within the tight timespan of 24 hours, then it wasn't a systemic issue with the update that bricked your console.

I remember this post as I am an avid Major Nelson blog reader, but I'm referring to the Nov 30th update. As a matter of fact you can check Major Nelson's blog for that update for the uproar on the talkback for that update in particular since you are disputing that this was swept under the rug. The Major never addressed the issue other than saying "we're looking into it" and then locked the thread so it couldn't be discussed any more.

 

[arne]

I remember this post as I am an avid Major Nelson blog reader, but I'm referring to the Nov 30th update. As a matter of fact you can check Major Nelson's blog for that update for the uproar on the talkback for that update in particular since you are disputing that this was swept under the rug. The Major never addressed the issue other than saying "we're looking into it" and then locked the thread so it couldn't be discussed any more.

because they looked into it and there wasn't a systemic issue like they did with that oct 30 update. if there was no systemic, reproducible issue, what the hell do you want them to do?

but hey, you're not required to believe me. so whatever.

back on topic pls.

 

[Hunter D]

I remember this post as I am an avid Major Nelson blog reader, but I'm referring to the Nov 30th update. As a matter of fact you can check Major Nelson's blog for that update for the uproar on the talkback for that update in particular since you are disputing that this was swept under the rug. The Major never addressed the issue other than saying "we're looking into it" and then locked the thread so it couldn't be discussed any more.

I have never been banned from live when they were doing mass bannings man.

 

[polyh3dron]

well, that's one right there. if PS3 updates killed that console then there must be more and "if they have collateral damage like this in doing so they should not be doing things like this."


see what I did there?

sigh.

Degenerating the discussion to fallacies are we?

I'm done.

 

[Burger]

I have to agree with Arne. I find it hard to believe that unmodded consoles are being banned. Sounds like a few people didn't see it coming and are doing anything they can to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Anyway, it's a moot issue. If you Xbox did get banned, and your little security sticker is untouched, then ring Microsoft and I'm sure they will sort it out.

If you went and took that little sticker off to put more fans in, or paint the case, then sorry. Game over.

 

[arne]

Degenerating the discussion to fallacies are we?

I'm done.

:lol
haha, this is what your response is by using your own argument against you? how utterly classic. You realize that you sound a little like this: "I can't get my way, so I quit!"

 

[mrklaw]

I'm assuming this code can be put on discs and therefore make them refuse to play in modded machines? As the modded firmware still needs the original disc (albeit a copy), you can't hack the check out.

So not only do you get banned from live, you potentially get your supply cut off if MS are smart.

 

[polyh3dron]

:lol
haha, this is what your response is by using your own argument against you? how utterly classic. You realize that you sound a little like this: "I can't get my way, so I quit!"

You used my own argument against me by taking my quote out of context and using it to somehow equate one instance of a ps3 failing from an update meant to enhance a console with me saying that MS shouldn't be permanently banning consoles based on a modder detection scheme that might be claiming some innocent bystanders.

Oh, and for pointing out the degeneration of the argument and refusing to continue the discussion's descent into pointlessness as a result, you belittle me.

I see what you did there.

Now I'm really done. Seriously.

 

[arne]

You used my own argument against me by taking my quote out of context and using it to somehow equate one instance of a ps3 failing from an update meant to enhance a console with me saying that MS shouldn't be permanently banning consoles based on a modder detection scheme that might be claiming some innocent bystanders.

Oh, and for pointing that out as a fallacy and refusing to continue the discussion's descent into pointlessness as a result, you belittle me.

I see what you did there.

my point was, isolated incidents can't be used to point out flaws or dictate system-wide policy.

That is what I understood is the gist of your comment. Whether the initial purpose was to enhance the console or not is irrelevant -- and one could argue that removing modders/pirates/etc. from XBL enhances the community and hence the inherent value of the console which is something that you alluded to in the post I pulled the quote from.

 

[Ponn]

my point was, isolated incidents can't be used to point out flaws or dictate system-wide policy.

That is what I understood is the gist of your comment. Whether the initial purpose was to enhance the console or not is irrelevant -- and one could argue that removing modders/pirates/etc. from XBL enhances the community and hence the inherent value of the console which is something that you alluded to in the post I pulled the quote from.

Hey Arne, where is my Blue Dragon!? I finally got a 360, I jumped in and want a date on Blue Dragon. I think I deserve it especially since I ended up with a crapped out console thank you very much. Which by the way I haven't even received my return box and I called on Monday.

 

[arne]

Hey Arne, where is my Blue Dragon!? I finally got a 360, I jumped in and want a date on Blue Dragon. I think I deserve it especially since I ended up with a crapped out console thank you very much. Which by the way I haven't even received my return box and I called on Monday.

It comes out this summer?

and I'm tech support all of a sudden?

 

[Ponn]

It comes out this summer?

and I'm tech support all of a sudden?

Actually no, i'm just hoping you feel so bad for me you will send me your advanced copy I KNOW you have.

 

[arne]

Actually no, i'm just hoping you feel so bad for me you will send me your advanced copy I KNOW you have.

I WISH I had it. I wouldn't be here participating in this "discussion" I'd be frickin playing it!

 

[Robobandit]

I WISH I had it. I wouldn't be here participating in this "discussion" I'd be frickin playing it!

Who are you and why are you here on GAF?

Everyone knows that people don't really play games on NeoGAF, they just come here to complain about games that they don't play

Blue Dragon is one of the reasons I bought this machine, can't come soon enough

edit:

and every company's employee is tech support when they post anywhere or go into public.

I'm sure people stop you on the street if you're wearing a xbox shirt and ask why they haven't received their replacement 360s yet.

 

[RiskyChris]

Great, now I have to worry that MS will send me a modded xbox refurb when mine inevitably "rings" on me, then get banned when I try to play on live?

I hope I'm one of the 3-5% of consoles that don't die.

 

[polyh3dron]

Great, now I have to worry that MS will send me a modded xbox refurb when mine inevitably "rings" on me, then get banned when I try to play on live?

I hope I'm one of the 3-5% of consoles that don't die.

QFT.

 

[Chichikov]

My friend Matt's console got banned. He didn't mod it, but it is modded. He got it refurb from Microsoft. When the Crackdown scene leak happened, one of my less intelligent friends downloaded it and burned it to DVD, gave it to Matt for his birthday. I told him that it wouldn't work and he was a moron, but the next day Matt said the game worked fine. He never downloaded anything else to my knowledge, though he used the pirated Crackdown to get the Halo 3 Beta.

I obviously don't know your friend or can tell if it's true.
But you got to admit, this story sounds like total and utter BS.
(not to mention that even by his own admission he played a pirated game, so he really cannot complain).

Great, now I have to worry that MS will send me a modded xbox refurb when mine inevitably "rings" on me, then get banned when I try to play on live?

I hope I'm one of the 3-5% of consoles that don't die.

Is there any *real* evidence of it happening?
and no, people whining on xbox-scene is not evidence.

 

[FirstInHell]

QFT.

You just got completely bitchslapped in this thread, I think you should take that break from the thread you mentioned. Maybe you can use your free time to troubleshoot your "friends" unmodded Xbox and send Microsoft a detailed analysis of what they are doing wrong.

 

[Nikashi]

Great, now I have to worry that MS will send me a modded xbox refurb when mine inevitably "rings" on me, then get banned when I try to play on live?

I hope I'm one of the 3-5% of consoles that don't die.

Okay, guys.

I understand that you are upset you got caught red handed as a pirate.

Telling people that Microsoft sent you SOMEONE ELSE'S modded console is really really grasping at straws. Just admit you got caught, enjoy the fact you can still pirate games ALL YOU WANT as long as you stay the **** off Live, and move on. Why would you want Live anyways, you guys clearly have a problem paying for things

(Note: It sounds like you modded your Xbox and you're already making excuses for the inevitible ban you're going to get, to be honest)

 

[RiskyChris]

Okay, guys.

I understand that you are upset you got caught red handed as a pirate.

Telling people that Microsoft sent you SOMEONE ELSE'S modded console is really really grasping at straws. Just admit you got caught, enjoy the fact you can still pirate games ALL YOU WANT as long as you stay the **** off Live, and move on. Why would you want Live anyways, you guys clearly have a problem paying for things

(Note: It sounds like you modded your Xbox and you're already making excuses for the inevitible ban you're going to get, to be honest)

Did you read my post? My box is still new, the original from when I purchased it. It's going to die one day, just like every other xbox. To highlight, I have not been banned yet and my box is not modded.

There already have been numerous posts in this thread saying how people have modded their boxes, and when they sent them in for warranty they received a different box back refurbed.

I'm going to make a little bit of a logical conclusion, I hope you can follow: that modded box is going to get refurbished and sent to someone else.

 

[Nikashi]

I'm going to make a little bit of a logical conclusion, I hope you can follow: that modded box is going to get refurbished and sent to someone else.

I'm honestly at a loss here. You believe MS will take a tampered console, somehow not notice it's modded, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE JUST PROVEN THEY CAN DETECT AND BAN THE MOD, and have been able to for quite some time, and then send it to a DIFFERENT person, THEN ban that new person for having a modded console, which they magically weren't able to detect when it was wide open and REPAIRING it.

This based on the fact people with modded Xboxes were sent repaired ones rather than having their warranty not honored because it was tampered with.

I am at a loss for words.

 

[aaaaa0]

I'm going to make a little bit of a logical conclusion, I hope you can follow: that modded box is going to get refurbished and sent to someone else.

And what do you think they do when they refurbish a box? Wrap it with a towel, shove it in a box and ship it back out?

If they can detect a mod over Live, what are the chances that a tech running whatever full suite of software diagnostics they have won't be able to find it?

 

[RiskyChris]

I'm honestly at a loss here. You believe MS will take a tampered console, somehow not notice it's modded, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE JUST PROVEN THEY CAN DETECT AND BAN THE MOD, and have been able to for quite some time, and then send it to a DIFFERENT person, THEN ban that new person for having a modded console, which they magically weren't able to detect when it was wide open and REPAIRING it.

This based on the fact people with modded Xboxes were sent repaired ones rather than having their warranty not honored because it was tampered with.

I am at a loss for words.

Who's to say that they're checking firmwares as they refurb units? We already know that modders have had their warranty honored, so MS has had modded units mixed in the fray. I'm not convinced that MS is reflashing firmware in their process to fix machines. Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to remain pessimistic.

 

[aaaaa0]

Who's to say that they're checking firmwares as they refurb units? We already know that modders have had their warranty honored, so MS has had modded units mixed in the fray. I'm not convinced that MS is reflashing firmware in their process to fix machines. Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to remain pessimistic.

Well you'd think they have to do SOMETHING, since if they don't change the console ID or something like that, then all the DRM'd content that belonged the the OLD user of that refurbed 360 would still be licensed for that console when it was given to the NEW user -- yay FREE XBLA games.

So obviously they're doing something more than just wrapping the consoles in towels and crossing their fingers.

 

[RiskyChris]

Well you'd think they have to do SOMETHING, since if they don't change the console ID or something like that, then all the DRM'd content that belonged the the OLD user of that refurbed 360 would still be licensed for that console when it was given to the NEW user -- yay FREE XBLA games.

So obviously they're doing something more than just wrapping the consoles in towels and crossing their fingers.

Of course they do something. They professionally have the systems brought back to life.

Until an official MS rep says they are ensuring the systems are clean before going back out, I will continue to be wary of the replacement operations they've got running.

 

[Wulfer]

QFT.

Dude you should quit while your ahead. You already sound like a whining brat!

You said your done so, be done then!

 

[polyh3dron]

You guys think it's so one-sided and that I got bitchslapped when the MS dude's stance was on some definite shaky ground hisself. Okay. I was just trying to stand up for the little guy, but now I realized that you guys are right.

The updates haven't destroyed any 360s whatsoever and there were no innocent bystanders at all that were affected by this banning because that would be completely impossible.

 

[polyh3dron]

Who's to say that they're checking firmwares as they refurb units? We already know that modders have had their warranty honored, so MS has had modded units mixed in the fray. I'm not convinced that MS is reflashing firmware in their process to fix machines. Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to remain pessimistic.

According to others in this thread Microsoft is right and you are wrong and absolutely nothing will make them think otherwise, so it's kind of foolish to press the issue.

 

[arne]

You guys think it's so one-sided and that I got bitchslapped when the MS dude's stance was on some definite shaky ground hisself. Okay. I was just trying to stand up for the little guy, but now I realized that you guys are right.

The updates haven't destroyed any 360s whatsoever and there were no innocent bystanders at all that were affected by this banning because that would be completely impossible.

now you're just being bitter and taking what was happening to the totally other extreme for no reason other than to be spiteful.


if you want to make something out of nothing, go right ahead, but you'll be proven wrong. how does my stance that there is no systemic issue with any update and therefore the software updates don't brick "thousands and thousands" of consoles? if it's reproducible, it's systemic, if it's not reproducible, it's a one-off case and it sucks. to date all but that Nov. 1 post I pointed to have yielded non-reproducible brickings. which means a whole lot of people were complaining about nothing and spreading FUD for no real reason. And I'm going to say yet again, if your friend is indeed a false positive, that is 1 and that hardly makes any case -- in my opinion -- to not ban modded consoles at all, as you suggest.


also, let's throw a wrench into things here... The Escapist says that the modding check detects copied software itself and not the firmware. They don't cite a source though.

 

[The Faceless Master]

if the current theory going around is true, there is no way for a normal person to get a false positive.

 

[Hammer24]

I absolutely congratulate Microsoft - the right move at the right time!

Now if they would just step up and honor the warranty of my broken 360, I would like to get it repaired...

 

[Uncle]

What if my 360 dies and I get a refurb that has Super AIDS? Do they check the systems for Super AIDS? I don't want to get Super AIDS.

 

[Brashnir]

What if my 360 dies and I get a refurb that has Super AIDS? Do they check the systems for Super AIDS? I don't want to get Super AIDS.

refurb (and all 360s really) consoles are immune to super-AIDS, but there remains the small chance that it could be infected with the plague. You'll just have to take your chances with that one.

 

[Hammer24]

refurb (and all 360s really) consoles are immune to super-AIDS, but there remains the small chance that it could be infected with the plague. You'll just have to take your chances with that one.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

also, let's throw a wrench into things here... The Escapist says that the modding check detects copied software itself and not the firmware. They don't cite a source though.

That's interesting. If it's true, you have to wonder why they don't just reject copied discs when they detect them. Unless they're worried that that gives the crackers something to test against, which would just speed the cloaking process.

Personally I find this stuff fascinating. There was a great article in Wired a while back about the DirecTV back-hack but I can't seem to find it in their archives.

 

[Moz La Punk]

Haha, some of the people I have on Xbox Live are banned. This is funny as shit.

 

[Diablohead]

The thing I feel sorry for is that people are already selling banned consoles on ebay and people are buying them, damn thats harsh.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

The thing I feel sorry for is that people are already selling banned consoles on ebay and people are buying them, damn thats harsh.

Ebay transactions are logged, if someone does try to get online with it and can't, the feds come into the picture.

 

[Burger]

I swear some people on here have actual mental retardation.

The 360 has a f*cking SECURITY DECAL ON IT!

If that is missing when you send your POS modded console back to Microsoft, they will know that some shit is going down on your box.

Nobody is sending out modded refurbished consoles. You guys are frikken nuts.