Support NeoGAF

[Ravidrath]

It ain't so bad.

Make me a mod and I'll probably feel more comfortable.

Hell, make all devs mods and we'll go lay waste to the Skullgirls $150,000 thread, for starters!

I don't think it need a long time test about this,and they still have ~6 months to change this,it's pretty enough time i would say

Unless you also have had direct experience working with the stultifying bureaucratic ziggurat that is Microsoft, I'm going to ask you to trust me on this.

 

[painful fart]

his firing = 1 new hire probably

1 life ruined + 1 life made better
universe in balance

Man, this thread keeps delivering.

 

[Dennis]

It ain't so bad.

Is your next game going to be always-online?

My pitchfork is ready.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Holy shit

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cu5BRZc3M8

I died.

It had to happen. I'm just surprised it took this long.

 

[SolarPowered]

Do not mistake readership for respect. GAF is more of a horrifying curiosity in the industry than anything else.

Yes, there are tons of industry people on GAF, but very few of them are "out" because GAF is a terrifying place to be a developer.

Man, after watching and reading everything you guys went through since Skullgirls came out last year I think EVERYWHERE must be a terrifying place for many developers. If you gotta be in a terrifying place then it may as well be GAF.

 

[lazybones18]

Well this topic was an interesting read....even if I did skim like the 20 or so pages

 

[onQ123]

Well Aaron Greenberg apparently doesn't even know who he is suddenly.

Reiko
if I make another silly thread,
notify bish, Evilore or
Blackace immediately kthx



lol what's the story behind this tag?

 

[Ravidrath]

Well this topic was an interesting read....even if I did skim like the 20 or so pages

Skullgirls stalkers following me in here...?

 

[SolarPowered]

I've been posting and skimming in it for a while now...

 

[travisbickle]

I know i'm using bald guy Avatar but i'm not aegies,in fact my hair is very long


I don't think it need a long time test about this,and they still have ~6 months to change this,it's pretty enough time i would say

Business>>>anything for Microsoft i think,if they don't change it,i highly doubt it can sold well,then no profit,then that is bad for business

That's his point. You, one person on the internet, thinks it's a bad idea. There are obviously benefits to this system that's why it has been suggested and, according to rumour, developed to an advanced stage now...do you think you could persuade enough people within MS that were part of the process that developed an "always online" console so that they would change course and remove that function?

 

[bishoptl]

Make me a mod and I'll probably feel more comfortable.

If you think that's any sort of protection here...you are sadly mistaken. :\

Is your next game going to be always-online?

My pitchfork is ready.

SEE WHAT I MEAN

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

The guy got fired.

#DealWithIt

He only has himself to blame and I am not showing any sympathy especially after the ridiculous analogies he made.

 

[Ravidrath]

If you think that's any sort of protection here...you are sadly mistaken. :\

...Mod + SLJ avatar?

I could change my name to Dragona, too, for additional chilling effect.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Holy shit

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cu5BRZc3M8

I died.

What's important in this video is that even though the guy ignored everyone else's names, he made sure that Stalin was properly referenced and in the right sentence. You can't just ignore Stalin!

 

[Reiko]

Reiko
if I make another silly thread,
notify bish, Evilore or
Blackace immediately kthx



lol what's the story behind this tag?

Multiple Gaffers request to make a new thread based on one Gaffer's post. I make a new thread.

Gets trolled. New tag.

---------

Bishop, I applaud you for your silence and not breaking NDAs, because I know you like your job.

Unfortunately for Adam Orth he thought he was Hideki Kamiya and paid the price.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

That's his point. You, one person on the internet, thinks it's a bad idea. There are obviously benefits to this system that's why it has been suggested and, according to rumour, developed to an advanced stage now...do you think you could persuade enough people within MS that were part of the process that developed an "always online" console so that they would change course and remove that function?

Did you just said only me think require online is bad idea?

It's not just internet peoples think it's bad idea anymore btw,unless MS don't care retailers
http://gamingeverything.com/45022/v...e-nextbox-most-say-its-a-bad-idea/#more-45022

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/retail-xbox-720-always-on-connection-must-not-happen/0113667

 

[Ravidrath]

Did you just said only me think require online is bad idea?

It's not just internet peoples think it's bad idea anymore btw,unless MS don't care retailers
http://gamingeverything.com/45022/v...e-nextbox-most-say-its-a-bad-idea/#more-45022

They sold 76M Xbox 360s.

The think they "won" this generation, even though they sold fewer consoles than Nintendo or Sony.

There are maybe a few hundred thousand people at most that will see or care about this news story now, and most of them will forget by the time the system is out.

GAF is part of a vocal minority, nothing more. And even if we do end up being "right" and it does prove to be bad for business, they have plenty of data and work they've already paid for to justify their current position, and plenty of money to try and rectify it.

 

[IHaveIce]

Holy shit

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cu5BRZc3M8

I died.

Holy fuck not only laughed I out loud, no my reactions and reasons were pretty similiar.

Destiny PS4 pls

Edit : He was fired? Oh shit son

 

[Sorc3r3r]

Wow this thread is still going strong.

The first Microsoft will announce their new box the better, everyone knows, no one can speak,
rumors (the bad ones) are hurting them in the meantime a lot in my opinion, they will have to adress point for point all the negative stuff the newbox is rumored to have, and be very clear about that or the doubts will kill their launch, no more hiding or half spoken sentences for them.

This whole situation is becoming a joke, hope they have a great PR people that can recover from the hole where these rumors are sinking the new box.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

On the topic of dev's avoiding GAF in general, I'm not sure I would have even known that Skullgirls fundraiser existed if not for the front-page thread it had for over a month. So there's that.

On the other hand, I probably wouldn't have known/cared who Dennis Dyack was if not for GAF either, so it sort of balances out.

 

[Reiko]

Wow this thread is still going strong.

The first Microsoft will announce their new box the better, everyone knows, no one can speak,
rumors (the bad ones) are hurting them in the meantime a lot in my opinion, they will have to adress point for point all the negative stuff the newbox is rumored to have, and be very clear about that or the doubts will kill their launch, no more hiding or half spoken sentences for them.

This whole situation is becoming a joke, hope they have a great PR people that can recover from the hole where these rumors are sinking the new box.

Their best PR man, Peter Moore left a long time ago.

 

[2MF]

On the topic of dev's avoiding GAF in general, I'm not sure I would have even known that Skullgirls fundraiser existed if not for the front-page thread it had for over a month. So there's that.

On the other hand, I probably wouldn't have known/cared who Dennis Dyack was if not for GAF either, so it sort of balances out.

I think it's better to let people know you're a dev than hiding. I have the impression that what gets you at gaf is the hiding and subsequent detective-GAF reveal.

 

[onQ123]

If by 'hype' you meant something like this then yeah:

Wow.

link to video?

 

[Ravidrath]

I think it's better to let people know you're a dev than hiding. I have the impression that what gets you at gaf is the hiding and subsequent detective-GAF reveal.

The problem is that even if you're open as a dev, as I am, people will constantly tell you you're wrong even though they're in highschool and you've worked in the industry for 20 years.

People flat-out called me a terrible manager based on nothing more than some indefinable feeling they had, even though I laid out budgets right there in our Indiegogo campaign and they have never had a full-time job.

 

[Reiko]

I think it's better to let people know you're a dev than hiding. I have the impression that what gets you at gaf is the hiding and subsequent detective-GAF reveal.

That's the thing... That one "Sweet Billy" post was irrelevant until that Reddit guy gave Detective GAF something to work with.

 

[farisr]

If MS, at anytime, has planned this (which seems to be the case with all the rumors arising from statements given by various sources and devs) they are not going to back down from it (at least in the beginning), because chances are, they have probably landed some third party exclusives implementing this system. They have been planning this for a while.

Of course if they haven't landed any such deals, then yeah, they could even decide at the last moment before their reveal event that they don't want to go through with this.

 

[libregkd]

The problem is that even if you're open as a dev, as I am, people will constantly tell you you're wrong even though they're in highschool and you've worked in the industry for 20 years.

That Skullgirls thread awhile ago still has me amazed at exactly how some people think things in games get done and for how much.

 

[2MF]

That's the thing... That one "Sweet Billy" post was irrelevant until that Reddit guy gave Detective GAF something to work with.

But what did Sweet Billy lose from that comment? Twitter is what got him.

 

[Replicant]

Wow.

link to video?

Mexican ambulance fail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0bWxA0OiA0

 

[Reiko]

But what did Sweet Billy lose from that comment? Twitter is what got him.

It just added credence that he was a "jackass" according to a former co-worker, despite the best efforts of David Jaffe defending his blunder.

All of those little things just added up.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

They sold 76M Xbox 360s.

The think they "won" this generation, even though they sold fewer consoles than Nintendo or Sony.

There are maybe a few hundred thousand people at most that will see or care about this news story now, and most of them will forget by the time the system is out.

All of us are in a vocal minority. And even if we are "right" and it does prove to be bad for business, they have plenty of data and work they've already paid for to justify their current position.

I don't think it just few hundred thousand care about this news right now,but yeah there's decent chance "most of them will forget by the time the system is out" happen,but let's hope people we keep remember it this time,if they don't change it.

About how long time they need to change this,i really not sure,i just think it won't need a long time if they decide change it now,but if they don't change it,i won't buy it and hope this "feature" will fail...and for me,if they realize that's wrong and decide change it after release,even it need a long time,i will still buy 720 when it can play games offline
It is not too late to mend the fold even after some of the sheep have been lost

 

[travisbickle]

Did you just said only me think require online is bad idea?

It's not just internet peoples think it's bad idea anymore btw,unless MS don't care retailers
http://gamingeverything.com/45022/v...e-nextbox-most-say-its-a-bad-idea/#more-45022

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/retail-xbox-720-always-on-connection-must-not-happen/0113667

The people within MS who have made the decisions will have justified it against any potential negatives. Practically everyone involved in making this happen will be behind the idea. Even the topic you are in is discussing remarks from an MS employee stating he thinks always online is a good idea. MS will have information rebutting every possible negative to be made...it's just unfortunate MS weren't able to feed out this information before the internet reacted to the possibility.

 

[Ryuhza]

Wow.

link to video?

Something magical I learned. Google lets you run a search by using an image. Just go to image search, click the camera icon in the search bar, past the URL of the image, and BAM! No questions asked.

 

[animlboogy]

The problem is that even if you're open as a dev, as I am, people will constantly tell you you're wrong even though they're in highschool and you've worked in the industry for 20 years.

People flat-out called me a terrible manager based on nothing more than some indefinable feeling they had, even though I laid out budgets right there in our Indiegogo campaign and they have never had a full-time job.

Did you look at the comments elsewhere? No exaggeration, 10x worse than that horrible thread. Which, I will say again, was filled with people defending your budget and referring to it as low balling from the get go. Including me, I was all over the first few pages swatting people away to the point that I was worried I could catch a ban for crossing the line with my attitude.

I don't think most other places on the Internet even have people informed enough to defend you guys in the first place. Again, look at the Giant Bomb comments on the very article that started that thread. Packed to the brim with ignorance.

You're giving GAF the short end for having a part of its audience that behaves like the rest of the Internet. That's not really fair.

Edit: there was even a really cool "lesson was learned" moment in there where an artist who was being kind of mouthy about it tried doing his own design, and in the process came out respecting how much time and effort it would really take. But whenever that thread is talked about, all that stuff gets glossed over and it's used to make this community seem stupid. I mean, how often do people actually admit they're wrong and put a few hours of work in just to test their theory? That was like a small miracle, and I doubt it would have happened in the midst of the many other discussions on the topic throughout the Internet.

 

[Ravidrath]

I don't think it just few hundred thousand care about this news right now,but yeah there's decent chance "most of them will forget by the time the system is out" happen,but let's hope people we keep remember it this time,if they don't change it.

About how long time they need to change this,i really not sure,i just think it won't need a long time if they decide change it now,but if they don't change it,i won't buy it and hope this "feature" will fail...and for me,if they realize that's wrong and decide change it after release,even it need a long time,i will still buy 720 when it can play games offline
It is not too late to mend the fold even after some of the sheep have been lost

See, your inability to grasp my point strikes me just like how I think their inability to grasp your point would be.

And you're just doing it based on a feeling, and they're doing it based on years of investment and focus group testing.

Did you look at the comments elsewhere? No exaggeration, 10x worse than that horrible thread. Which, I will say again, was filled with people defending your budget and referring to it as low balling from the get go. Including me, I was all over the first few pages swatting people away to the point that I was worried I could catch a ban for crossing the line with my attitude.

I don't think most other places on the Internet even have people informed enough to defend you guys in the first place. Again, look at the Giant Bomb comments on the very article that started that thread. Packed to the brim with ignorance.

You're giving GAF the short end for having a part of its audience that behaves like the rest of the Internet. That's not really fair.

GAF was better than the Kotaku and Joystiq comments, but... that's not exactly setting a high bar. And it wasn't THAT much better at first, although it did turn around by the end.

Of course I'm appreciative for people like you and RagingSpaniard and Feep defending us, but through the day I was getting linked to the thread by devs all day seething with rage at that thread and not any of the other sources. So I think that thread in particular touched a nerve because they, like me, expected better from GAF.

 

[Reiko]

See, your inability to grasp my point strikes me just like how I think their inability to grasp your point would be.

And you're just doing it based on a feeling, and they're doing it based on years of investment and focus group testing.

I think MS needs to hire new focus groups if the rumors are true.

More importantly, people in touch with reality.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

The people within MS who have made the decisions will have justified it against any potential negatives. Practically everyone involved in making this happen will be behind the idea. Even the topic you are in is discussing remarks from an MS employee stating he thinks always online is a good idea. MS will have information rebutting every possible negative to be made...it's just unfortunate MS weren't able to feed out this information before the internet reacted to the possibility.

Sounds like every Microsoft HQ's PC are always offline and can't connect to internet

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Something magical I learned. Google lets you run a search by using an image. Just go to image search, click the camera icon in the search bar, past the URL of the image, and BAM! No questions asked.

Even better, get the context menu option.
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...google/dajedkncpodkggklbegccjpmnglmnflm?hl=en

 

[IHaveIce]

See, your inability to grasp my point strikes me just like how I think their inability to grasp your point would be.

And you're just doing it based on a feeling, and they're doing it based on years of investment and focus group testing.

Yeah Microsoft's focus group testing is shit.

Their 'focus groups' ruined Halo, ruined OS systems and more.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I think MS needs to hire new focus groups if the rumors are true.

More importantly, people in touch with reality.

What focus group did they used for xbox requiring money to allow people to play multiplayer games when all other options to play online games was free.

Microsoft isn't known for being on the customer's side. People told them that the Windows 8 thing was horrible but they went along with it. They want to force their store for Windows 8 or whatever, and developers made their concern's known yet it seem like they ignored it, wanting to 1 up Apple.

 

[Monty Mole]

Worth quoting. Also, he's not just any random employee, he's a director.

Being a 'Creative Director' isn't the same thing as being a company director. It's just a standard job title for that kind of role but is far from having directorship responsibilities!

 

[Ravidrath]

Yeah Microsoft's focus group testing is shit.

Their 'focus groups' ruined Halo, ruined OS systems and more.

I don't disagree! But they keep using them as justification for every single thing they do, and seem quite happy to keep doing that despite evidence to the contrary.

And their data that they paid for, however bad it will seem in hindsight, will always be perceived as more actionable than the inchoate feelings of internet people.

 

[Reiko]

What focus group they used for xbox requiring money to allow people to play multiplayer games when all other options to play online games was free.

Good one.

 

[jorma]

Is this the proper recap:

Guy gets fired "for what he said"
Microsoft doesn't deny their stance
(basically hidden contracts with developers have been made and their is now way out without legal impact)

In conclusion, Microsoft wanted to Lie about the impact and hide it as much as they could... Letting people discover it after the initial purchase. To mitigate day one sales.

That's my take as well. I feel bad for him, it's not his fault he had to defend a shitty strategy.
MS should have slapped his fingers because he had a shitty attitude on twitter, but sacking him is just petty. It's not going to mend the customer relations, since the problem is mainly with the message, not the messenger.

I'm pretty sure that this is MS caving in to publisher demand, and it would not surprise me if they got some exclusive content in return. But now that's just gonna piss me off even more because that is content that would have been on all consoles if MS had just said "nuh-uh" to publishers, like Sony obviously did.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I don't disagree! But they keep using them as justification for every single thing they do, and seem quite happy to keep doing that despite evidence to the contrary.

And their data that they paid for, however bad it will seem in hindsight, will always be perceived as more actionable than the inchoate feelings of internet people.

Had they paid more attention to what the Internet was saying about Windows Phone and Windows 8, those products probably wouldn't have been as disastrous as they have been. It kind of makes you wonder who participates in these focus group things in the first place.

Since the Xbox 360 in 2006, Microsoft's biggest new products have been Zune, Kin, Windows 7, Windows Phone 7, Windows 8, Windows Phone 8, and Surface. Of these products, the only one which anyone could say received anything resembling a positive reception from the general consumer was Windows 7. Their track record has been abysmal, so why do they keep doing the same thing over and over knowing it's probably going to fail?

 

[travisbickle]

Sounds like every Microsoft HQ's PC are always offline and can't connect to internet

What are the main negative reactions to this news?

"what about people who don't have internet?"

"I don't like forced DRM."


Do you think MS hasn't thought about either of these over the last 2, 3 possibly 4 years of developing this? Do you think now there's a top man at MS going "oh shit we forgot about people without an internet connection, call it off guys!!" And do I need to talk about MS and DRM?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

What focus group did they used for xbox requiring money to allow people to play multiplayer games when all other options to play online games was free.

Microsoft isn't known for being on the customer's side. People told them that the Windows 8 thing was horrible but they went along with it. They want to force their store for Windows 8 or whatever, and developers made their concern's known yet it seem like they ignored it, wanting to 1 up Apple.

Microsoft think they have as much brand power as Apple. They are in for a rude awakening. Heck even Apple has had its blips. There comes a point when people will see the bullshit you are serving and simply reply fuck you (at least thats what I hope).

 

[unbias]

The problem is that even if you're open as a dev, as I am, people will constantly tell you you're wrong even though they're in highschool and you've worked in the industry for 20 years.

People flat-out called me a terrible manager based on nothing more than some indefinable feeling they had, even though I laid out budgets right there in our Indiegogo campaign and they have never had a full-time job.

If your argument/statement is sound, I'm not sure why you would care? The reality is you are dealing with high school or collage age people still learning about business. Getting all worried or angry about that, would be like me getting angry when a client tries to tell me what retained earnings are or having them tell me beta coefficients are over blown. Besides it is the internet, half the time they actually agree with you, but like being trolls.

 

[Fistwell]

Do you think MS hasn't thought about either of these over the last 2, 3 possibly 4 years of developing this? Do you think now there's a top man at MS going "oh shit we forgot about people without an internet connection, call it off guys!!" And do I need to talk about MS and DRM?

Well that's one way to spin it. Then there's the fact that half the internet was up in arms at the mere whiff of always online, but nevermind that.

 

[Reiko]

Had they paid more attention to what the Internet was saying about Windows Phone and Windows 8, those products probably wouldn't have been as disastrous as they have been. It kind of makes you wonder who participates in these focus group things in the first place.

....