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[JaggedSac]

Please tell me you didn't just write all that shit yourself.

The front door.

hall_front_door.jpg

Use it.

No, I did not just write them just now.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

That's *exactly* what I called utterly pathetic. MS Research should be a new PARC, a new Bell Labs. Sorry but most of these things look like snake oil to me.

The times have changed, there will never be another PARC. As far as your comment about Microsoft's research projects goes, well, that's you, I obviously disagree.

And yeah, they invented a few superficial features, but the concept behind their GUI has changed basically nothing. Seriously, can you list anything in interfaces that's as important as, to stick to an easy goal, what Apple did? Anything even remotely comparable to even the trashcan or menubars (drop down menus)?

Off the top of my head, task-switching.

They've been "business leader" in GUIs for decades and they're still sticking to the desktop metaphor that the Alto already had?

Hey, they did try something a little different very early on.

Really, not a single big company (or even the open source community) has tried to completely abandon the ancient desktop metaphor in any meaningful fashion. Why? I think that's a discussion for a whole new thread.

Well speech/gesture recognition is not the biggest issue behind this. What's missing is exactly the stuff faked by Milo

If by "faked" you mean he's not actually thinking, well duh. I don't see how that would be required for a simple user interface, though.

If by "faked" you mean all that talk about men in black - sorry, men with laptops - controlling Milo from the shadows, let's wait until the actual game comes out. Then we'll talk about what it can and cannot do.

But...why? What are some of the practical uses for Natal (except for cool looking but pretty tiresome looking navigation interfaces)? I mean, yeah, the technology *is* very cool, but why do people always talk in generalities? It's always about "possibilities" and "a step in the right direction", but, apart from a handful of ideas (commando gestures, grenade throwing, head tracking), I've not seen an actual game idea that really goes beyond Eyetoy stuff. I mean, if it's so awesome, if it opens so many possibilities then why don't people keep coming up with new game ideas?

So you're talking about games now? Because up to this point we were talking about interfaces in general, but fine.

Again, let's wait until we see the actual games before we start talking about whether they're introducing some fresh ideas or not. If you can't see the potential uses... I really can't help you. Actually, I could, but I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Please tell me you didn't just write all that shit yourself.

The front door.

Use it.

Errr...wtf. He actually posted ideas about Natal games, which makes his post the most worthwhile one in the entire thread imo

Dodgeball sounds pretty cool at least. The planet game I don't think is an obvious fit for Natal, it could be difficult to mentally remap the stuff on screen to what you can touch in space because of 3D, so maybe a better fit for the Sony thing.

 

[Rainier]

Please tell me you didn't just write all that shit yourself.

The front door.

Use it.

Didn't get the anger in your post till I noticed it's from here.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

No, I did not just write them just now.

I would not post indepth ideas or creative game mechanics on the internet. You do not know who might be lurking and snatch em up.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Well, I'm fully expecting some hardcore revisiting of threads like this after E3 and post-product launches. I'm hoping they're of the crow-eating variety where people's amplified sense of cynicism now will lead to some astonished reversals and not of the hopes-being-completely-dashed sort. I'm in the happy hope crowd.

And, really, some of the most awesome games ever released would never sound interesting or fun in on-paper concept form. The actual running game is always the thing.

 

[JaggedSac]

Didn't get the anger in your post till I noticed it's from here.

I was waiting for someone to see where I originally posted these ideas. I am a forum member on that site because it is a small community and was a decent place for gaming discussion for a while. I don't take part in any sales discussions.

I figured I would try out neoGaf to see if some actual gaming discussions might take place, but it appears it suffers from the same communities all gaming sites have.

 

[Rainier]

I figured I would try out neoGaf to see if some actual gaming discussions might take place, but it appears it suffers from the same communities all gaming sites have.

You're right, you're going to get rabid fanboys on pretty much every gaming site, but at least here there are enough knowledgeable people to call out bullshit and keep people (somewhat) honest. I've yet to find a better gaming forum on the net.

 

[Flachmatuch]

The times have changed, there will never be another PARC. As far as your comment about Microsoft's research projects goes, well, that's you, I obviously disagree.

For some reason, looking at the MS research stuff actually makes me mad :-D Such a fucking waste.

Off the top of my head, task-switching.

Task switching? Do you mean alt-tab? I'm pretty sure "task switching" itself came way before MS hehe Anyway, isn't that kind of, you know, scraping the barrel? Cool feature though.

But whatever, I'm ready to admit that based on the "alt tab" combination, MS is as innovative in terms of GUIs as Apple :-D

Hey, they did try something a little different very early on.

AAarrrrgghhhhh hahahaha I forgot about this one.

Really, not a single big company (or even the open source community) has tried to completely abandon the ancient desktop metaphor in any meaningful fashion. Why? I think that's a discussion for a whole new thread.

My problem is that even within that, they haven't innovated one bit. Although tbh even if MS Research did come up with a completely new super innovative GUI model, we might not know about until it's in a product.

If by "faked" you mean he's not actually thinking, well duh. I don't see how that would be required for a simple user interface, though.

If by "faked" you mean all that talk about men in black - sorry, men with laptops - controlling Milo from the shadows, let's wait until the actual game comes out. Then we'll talk about what it can and cannot do.

It's the first. I really think a good user interface would need a lot of intelligence though, but yeah, this is a different topic.

So you're talking about games now? Because up to this point we were talking about interfaces in general, but fine.

I'm talking about either, I'm interested in both. Under "tiresome interfaces" I meant the silly MR stuff itself, not all possible Natal interfaces, what I wrote about game ideas is mostly true about general interface stuff also.

Again, let's wait until we see the actual games before we start talking about whether they're introducing some fresh ideas or not. If you can't see the potential uses... I really can't help you. Actually, I could, but I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over.

Yeah, let's. I can see at least some of the "potential uses" though, I'm just not sure they're worth too much I think whatever's needed for good new interfaces is way beyond Natal...not in terms of technology, but in how you use it. Natal is the "easy" part imo, and it's not even the necessary one. Coming up with an efficient interface without any input tools would be imo larger than Natal itself

You're right, you're going to get rabid fanboys on pretty much every gaming site, but at least here there are enough knowledgeable people to call out bullshit and keep people (somewhat) honest. I've yet to find a better gaming forum on the net.

It's awesome. People keep saying that "Gaf" was mistaken about the Wii/DS etc etc, but if you actually read the threads, you'll see a lot of insight and different opinions. Yeah, the majority opinion's not always right, but you will find a lot of viewpoints and a lot of ideas.

 

[PSGames]

This thread has been hijacked to shit. Jesus.

 

[Linkified]

Flachmatuch, everytime someone posts something to disprove a point of yours. You keep up this pretense that MS are an evil corporation so why post in a Natal thread?

 

[Flachmatuch]

Flachmatuch, everytime someone posts something to disprove a point of yours. You keep up this pretense that MS are an evil corporation so why post in a Natal thread?

Point out my concrete bias or the fault in my argument and don't just post general bullshit please. It's not like I couldn't answer back with similar accusations, but what's the point?

 

[TheOddOne]

Show me a single argument that I ignored, didn't answer or misunderstood before you say anything like this. I mean, I have my preferences and I admit to them, but that doesn't mean at all that I ignore or falsify arguments. As I said before, it's a serious claim, and you shouldn't use it unless you can prove it.

You know, it might actually be the case that MS *is* indeed a large corporation, whose influence is not perfectly good, and may even be a problem in this market. I don't see how it's that obviously stupid to say that having one of the world largest and richest corporations enter a new market with huge financial muscle might distort it and be a bad influence in the long run.

Really? The only thing you have done is spin the discussion in your direction and completly change the subject when the argument is relevant.

 

[Flachmatuch]

So what I asked should be pretty simple to do.

 

[soco]

Although tbh even if MS Research did come up with a completely new super innovative GUI model, we might not know about until it's in a product.

if you're waiting on super innovative GUI, you'll die before you see it. there's only one that was _super_ innovative and that was the original one at PARC. everything else has been a gradual progression based on previous individual improvements.

 

[professor_t]

I really wish I could share your hopeful perspective -- honestly, what kind of masochist *wants* to be disappointed? -- but I just can't muster any excitement over motion controls, especially after what we've seen with the Wii.

The quality of a game matters infinitely more to me than the control interface. I want the connection between me and what's happening in the game to be as transparent as possible, and in most cases the connection is more seemless (for me) with traditional controls.

I certainly hope Natal will change things, but I worry that resources are being invested in the wrong things (in short, trying to lure non-gamers to the fold). I completely understand this move from a business perspective, but I don't own MS shares, and I don't get a cut of their profits, so I don't see any reason to be happy about it.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Task switching? Do you mean alt-tab? I'm pretty sure "task switching" itself came way before MS hehe Anyway, isn't that kind of, you know, scraping the barrel? Cool feature though.

But whatever, I'm ready to admit that based on the "alt tab" combination, MS is as innovative in terms of GUIs as Apple :-D

Look, the bases of today's prevalent desktop paradigm have been established by Xerox and Apple ages ago. Everything since then, by any company, has been just slight refinement (even though cumulative effects of all those improvements are enormous). Like you said, we're still stuck with the same old desktop metaphor and you can only do so much within that space.

My problem is that even within that, they haven't innovated one bit. Although tbh even if MS Research did come up with a completely new super innovative GUI model, we might not know about until it's in a product.

Again, I wouldn't agree that they haven't innovated one bit. They did contribute to modern desktop interfaces either by innovating (the already mentioned alt-tab task-switching or newer ribbon toolbars, for instance) or by popularizing GUI elements pioneered by someone else (context-sensitive menus come to mind). I don't think we'll reach an agreement over this so we better drop it.

It's the first. I really think a good user interface would need a lot of intelligence though, but yeah, this is a different topic.

It wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it needs the same kind of faked intelligence exhibited by Milo. I mean, it should be intelligent enough in handling, organizing and presenting the data, but it doesn't need to convince us it's anything but a machine (in Milo's case, a human being). It's imperative, however, that we're able to communicate with it rather naturally - it just doesn't need to talk back (although I guess it wouldn't hurt if it did).

I don't think Natal will give us HAL 9000, but it might very well give us Blade Runner's Esper.

 

[Psychotext]

Point out my concrete bias or the fault in my argument and don't just post general bullshit please. It's not like I couldn't answer back with similar accusations, but what's the point?

But you said on the last page that you hate them... and that you could explain why. Surely that in itself is an indication of bias?

 

[Monty Mole]

Didn't get the anger in your post till I noticed it's from here.

lol no anger at all.

The front door was a joke - suggesting he should try getting out more as that appeared to be a pretty lengthy post he wrote there which would normally get lost in a thread like this

 

[Flachmatuch]

But you said on the last page that you hate them... and that you could explain why. Surely that in itself is an indication of bias?

It's just an indication of preferences. I thought "bias" was when you actually let those preferences influence your thoughts. Should I be pretending I am neutral towards them, even when I'm not? Or should I stop thinking about everything I'm not completely neutral towards?

Anyway, sorry about derailing the thread.

Look, the bases of today's prevalent desktop paradigm have been established by Xerox and Apple ages ago. Everything since then, by any company, has been just slight refinement (even though cumulative effects of all those improvements are enormous). Like you said, we're still stuck with the same old desktop metaphor and you can only do so much within that space.

Again, I wouldn't agree that they haven't innovated one bit. They did contribute to modern desktop interfaces either by innovating (the already mentioned alt-tab task-switching or newer ribbon toolbars, for instance) or by popularizing GUI elements pioneered by someone else (context-sensitive menus come to mind). I don't think we'll reach an agreement over this so we better drop it.

Hehe ok. Just one more remark: I don't think it'd be too easy to come up with a definition of innovation, any definition, that can differentiate between levels of innovation and would still show that MS is innovative in terms of GUIs.

As for the desktop metaphor, I know it's too much (and probably quite silly) to ask for a complete rehaul. It's just that there are a lot of problems and inefficiencies with the current model and there's just no attempt at solving those.

It wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it needs the same kind of faked intelligence exhibited by Milo. I mean, it should be intelligent enough in handling, organizing and presenting the data, but it doesn't need to convince us it's anything but a machine (in Milo's case, a human being). It's imperative, however, that we're able to communicate with it rather naturally - it just doesn't need to talk back (although I guess it wouldn't hurt if it did).

I don't think Natal will give us HAL 9000, but it might very well give us Blade Runner's Esper.

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe you're right, but this is way too off topic I think Really interesting question though.

 

[Psychotext]

It's just an indication of preferences. I thought "bias" when you actually let those preferences influence your thoughts. Should I be pretending I am neutral towards them, even when I'm not? Or should I stop thinking about everything I'm not completely neutral towards?

It's really more than people are going to find it difficult to believe that you're looking at this stuff objectively when you've clearly indicated your feelings toward the company.

Hell, I can't stand many companies and I'm not entirely sure it doesn't affect my reasoning towards them... if not just on a subconscious level.

 

[Linkified]

It's just an indication of preferences. I thought "bias" when you actually let those preferences influence your thoughts. Should I be pretending I am neutral towards them, even when I'm not? Or should I stop thinking about everything I'm not completely neutral towards?

Well I would really like you to know why you have this negative attitude towards them PM me, if you don't wanna post it here.

 

[Flachmatuch]

It's really more than people are going to find it difficult to believe that you're looking at this stuff objectively when you've clearly indicated your feelings toward the company.

Hell, I can't stand many companies and I'm not entirely sure it doesn't affect my reasoning towards them... if not just on a subconscious level.

No matter which way I look at it, I think it's better if I state my preferences that might distort my judgment, and not leave them to guesswork. In fact, theoretically it's a lot better to disclose these things as people can correct you when you're fucking up and it's easier for yourself to remain "objective" too.

I think people are mistaken about my reasons though, I have loads of idiotic prejudices, but preferring one mnc to another, identifying with it and wanting it to "win" is not really one of those.

 

[clashfan]

No matter which way I look at it, I think it's better if I state my preferences that might distort my judgment, and not leave them to guesswork. I think people are mistaken about my reasons though, I have loads of idiotic prejudices, but preferring one mnc to another, identifying with it and wanting it to "win" is not really one of those.

someone is heading for a meltdown...

 

[Pctx]

ITT: Future game companies spawn in real-time; Die Hard.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

I certainly hope Natal will change things, but I worry that resources are being invested in the wrong things (in short, trying to lure non-gamers to the fold).

Eh, those resources would likely have gone unused (meaning no extra hiring or team-building for this or anything else) or put to more of the same...which would likely net a disappointed remark or two on the internet complaining about more of the same stuff being produced. You want to give people who create new things to build off of. Motion control foundations for design are more interesting than what we've gotten mostly this gen so far in more refined, but samey stuff. In all cases, I'd prefer to see the foundation and base of the pyramid of possibilities widened rather than narrowed.

 

[professor_t]

Eh, those resources would likely have gone unused (meaning no extra hiring or team-building for this or anything else) or put to more of the same...which would likely net a disappointed remark or two on the internet complaining about more of the same stuff being produced. You want to give people who create new things to build off of. Motion control foundations for design are more interesting than what we've gotten mostly this gen so far in more refined, but samey stuff. In all cases, I'd prefer to see the foundation and base of the pyramid of possibilities widened rather than narrowed.

Well, I definitely hope this turns out to be the case. My pessimism may be more a function of my inability to imagine fun, effective applications of the technology than any inherent limitations of the guiding philosophy.

The Wii is a different animal, to be sure, but it's the only good comparison point I have, and so far it hasn't provided very many compelling experiences (for me), and none of them were compelling because of the way the game controlled.

Nevertheless, this is one situation in which I would love to be proven wrong.

 

[CadetMahoney]

From a platform POV, Sony has been the company doing the "copying" this generation. Sixaxis was a blatant late add-in to combat the Wii. PSN, DLC, downloadable low-budget games, trophies, etc, all ideas seen earlier on 360.

The PS-wand is probably more reminiscent of the Wii than Natal is of the Eye-Toy. Natal's biggest difference over Eye-Toy is probably not even the IR, but its software SDK - allowing all games to take advantage of the Natal hardware in the same way all games take advantage of Live.

judging from the move thread and it's title there's alot of "Nintendo clone" being mentioned so I have to agree.

 

[Iknos]

You expect development in human computer interfaces from Microsoft? I'd be surprised, looking at their track record.

http://www.microsoft.com/usability/UEPostings/p153-robertson.pdf

Equipment. The study was run on high-end Pentium ma-
chines (P6-266 or P6-300), with at least 128 MB of mem-
ory, and a 17-inch display. The machines had either an
Intergraph Intense 3D Pro 1000 or 2200 graphics accel-
erator card and ran Windows NT4.

This was back in 97.

There are good reasons why concept cars do not become reality the next day. Some features fail to become reality.

People don't like change. Companies don't like taking risks.

Lots of reasons why you don't see too much innovation in products from these large companies even though they invest a lot into R&D.

Honda FC Sport

Not going to see a car like that on the road in the next 5 years. Does this mean Honda fails at innovation? Are current Honda vehicles "pathetic" because that is all you as a customer know about them?

 

[sinnergy]

MS is pretty advanced in Interaction Design, can be applied to anything hardware software UI etc..

The even have their own ID labs. They know what they are doing..

 

[Chittagong]

MS is pretty advanced in Interaction Design, can be applied to anything hardware software UI etc..

The even have their own ID labs. They know what they are doing..

Hope we one day see actual products too with Surface, camera gesture interfaces, Courier stuff, fridge door / kitchen table computer etc. Makes me super mad to always see the cool stuff in their videos and conferences, beautifully productized, and then all they ship is Windows 7.

 

[travisbickle]

http://www.microsoft.com/usability/UEPostings/p153-robertson.pdf



This was back in 97.

There are good reasons why concept cars do not become reality the next day. Some features fail to become reality.

People don't like change. Companies don't like taking risks.

Lots of reasons why you don't see too much innovation in products from these large companies even though they invest a lot into R&D.

Honda FC Sport

Not going to see a car like that on the road in the next 5 years. Does this mean Honda fails at innovation? Are current Honda vehicles "pathetic" because that is all you as a customer know about them?

Concept cars are just a cheap way for the car company to get attention. There is no way they are intended to become a reality just a marketing tool to get people talking.

 

[Iknos]

Concept cars are just a cheap way for the car company to get attention. There is no way they are intended to become a reality just a marketing tool to get people talking.

They are never intended to become mass market vehicles. That's why they are called "concepts".