Support NeoGAF

[Ecstatic]

The audience they're attempting to court is highly unlikely to pay for X-Box Live. So either they'll go without it entirely or MS will have to offer something to these folks.

I'm sure if they built Wi-Fi in to the console and packaged 3 months of LIVE with a new console, it would all go very well for Microsoft.

Free access to LIVE is just something I can't see happening until at least the next generation Xbox (if ever).

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I think Natal, like most any gaming hardware that has ever come to existence, will have some good games and some gems.

Whether or not it has the developer support to be anything more than a quickie add-on made of hopes and dreams remains to be seen.

 

[FabCam]

Does anyone think it's going to be funny to see Nintendo steal the "core" gaming spotlight Tat E3 with Zelda while MS and Sony faff about with party game collections :lol

 

[Vinci]

I know, but I never heard that. It was talked on GAF though when it was revealed.

And that's the thing: Outside of the promise and interest folks had with the interface in Minority Report, has MS shown anything using Natal - actually using it - that is mindblowingly impressive? If they have, please show me. I'd truly like to see it.

 

[Flachmatuch]

If you actually watched the Natal reveal, it said it was created by Microsoft Reseach. I don't know where you got the MR type interface, I have never ever heard that.

Compared to their resources, MS Research seems to be utterly pathetic atm. Or maybe (hopefully) they have the same issues as Xerox with PARC - awesome ideas but people not able to take advantage of them? Don't know tbh.

Also I don't get the mentality that Microsoft is just amping up what others are doing, but who has done what MS is trying to do? What if MS released a Wii-remote clone, then I would have said the same thing.

Yeah that would have been even more direct and obvious (maybe a better choice for games but I'm not sure), but I don't believe you can't see the obvious similarities between the Wii strategy and Natal (whose technology was evaluated by Nintendo also iirc). It's not like MS invented anything or had to have foresight - I contend that quite a few gaffers would have similar views to MS if they saw a natal type technology's demo after the Wii bomb hit. Any tech minded people can "see the possibilities" in Natal, the problem is that these are just general possibilities, similar to ooooh so many trends that turned out not to exist anywhere but in technologists' minds.

 

[Afrikan]

I am not saying that Sony does not support their products. I am just saying that with each initiative that MS takes on with the 360, they make an event out of it, and they tell you why this new feature is important and something you will enjoy. With Sony you almost have to stumble upon most of the PS3 features on the XMB before you even know they exist.

So just to give an example of how I think things are going to play out. Natal is going to be released at a low price, potentially bundled with a big game, and potentially bundled with every 360 after its release, with several major releases and an enormous advertising campaign supporting it. Arc will probably be released as a standalone product, possibly bundled with a game, with only a few titles implementing it and even fewer titles requiring it, and maybe included in some sort of elite PS3 bundle and advertised as a footnote in the "It Only Does Everything" campaign. That is speculation of course, but that to me is the difference in how Sony and MS have been pushing console features and products this generation.

I think you are forgetting who is behind "Arc" or what ever it is called....they have been working on this thing for a long time now......also don't forget about Sony's 1st Party studios....hell they can have just 1 studio releasing games just for the Arc (Sony London), but I'm sure other devs will be working on it, like someone mentioned earlier, Sony Japan.

So the support will be there....and imo, these games will stand out compared to MS's offering later this year.

 

[PSGames]

Shame that most of their names start with EAD Software Group.



I don't know. They're a bit better off now than they were at the start of the generation, but I think even they see that the future will have to be different. If they just brought out a normal next-gen console, Sony would collapse and MS would be in the red for another half a decade. They need to change and they want the casual market, of course.



MS would love to have the Farmville addicts, so I hope this won't work out for them :-/ It'd be just leeching off other people's work and risktaking.



Yeah, it sounds like pretty awesome technology, but it never looked practical in any way, ever. That MR type "interface" is utterly ridiculous. MS should have its own research group that actually comes up with real ideas (MS Research lol), on the scale of the Xerox guys at least - instead, they're taking ideas from scifi movies?

Dude success breeds competition. You think MS shouldn't compete because Nintendo was first? That's ridiculous. And if anything MS is blazing their own trail with Natal. Sure it's the same casual market but Natal and Wiimote are nothing alike.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

YOU are the games!

:lol
Microsoft did announce Natal last year, and still kinda waiting. If 70 percent of publishers are supporting Natal, that's just nuts, but where is the first Natal game?? Or Natal support game.

 

[Vinci]

Dude success breeds competition. You think MS shouldn't compete because Nintendo was first? That's ridiculous. And if anything MS is blazing their own trail with Natal. Sure it's the same casual market but Natal and Wiimote are nothing alike.

But that's sort of the problem.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Dude success breeds competition. You think MS shouldn't compete because Nintendo was first?

No. MS shouldn't "compete" because they're way too big and can use money they make in other markets to distort this one. They simply cannot compete, they can only buy up a market.

That's ridiculous. And if anything MS is blazing their own trail with Natal. Sure it's the same casual market but Natal and Wiimote are nothing alike.

Technologically, they're different. For gaming, one is the "obvious" (for a technologist's mind) improvement/extension of another. Strategically, looking at what markets they aim for, they're quite obviously very similar.

 

[TheLegendary]

STFU with this core gamer shit please.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbZ8ERI4x98

Do yourself a favor and watch that all the way to the end where the sign at the end of the line just puts an exclamation point on the whole thing.
Then watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeR0fL9ofYY&NR=1 to realize how silly you sound. You super small insignificant unimportant audience that have coined yourselves 'core gamers' arent the majority even at an event like E3. Its filled to the brim with GAMERS period. These gamers are going to play and be interested in ANYTHING that catches their eye, and that is fun. It doesnt have to use a certain control, it doesnt have to be a sequel, it doesnt have to be a shooter or a cliche beatemup, doesnt have to be packed to the gills with fmv made my dozens of people who dont have the chops to be actual movie makers. Just needs to be fun. And if MS or Sony can pull that off, I would give a fucking lung to see a repeat of the above videos.

This gen has been a rollercoaster, this would be a PERFECT time to throw a wrench in it. Enough to just make us all throw our hands up in the air and exclaim "I give up!" when it comes to trying to predict how all of this is going to turn out.

Calm the fuck down. The "core" gamer is a valid segment of the market, especially from a business perspective. It's the 80-20 rule; 20% of your audience makes up 80% of your sales. The core gamer (or any other core customer) is one that researches and spends a siginificant amount of time with a product or service. Although in numbers "casual" gamers dwarf casual gamers, satisfying core customers is often worth more effort based on their spending habits. Core gamers are not insignifcant in anyway despite your whining. If MS can target a wider audience while keeping the core customer happy they'll be wildly successful.

 

[Ecstatic]

:lol
Microsoft did announce Natal last year, and still kinda waiting. If 70 percent of publishers are supporting Natal, that's just nuts, but where is the first Natal game?? Or Natal support game.

Well, we've all seen the paint-throwing game and the one where you have to dodge some balls and I think I've seen Burnout played with Natal.

 

[Vinci]

Well, we've all seen the paint-throwing game and the one where you have to dodge some balls and I think I've seen Burnout played with Natal.

Is that really all that's been shown? I haven't been following every Natal blip on the radar, so I assumed I missed out on something really fantastic to explain the levels of hype around this piece of machinery. There must be something else.

 

[InterMoniker]

Full natal lineup @ E3? This year? Wow, I guess they really are planning on launching it and then dropping support.

Looks like they're going to shift there focus to the "casual" market and forget about the "hardcore" gamers.

 

[Pudding Tame]

The audience they're attempting to court is highly unlikely to pay for X-Box Live. So either they'll go without it entirely or MS will have to offer something to these folks.

They'll have silver accounts, with access to marketplace, XBLA, and be able to download game demos. Does a casual gamer need online multiplayer, or any any of the other bells and whistles that a gold account offers? Since we are using Wii as the metric, the answer is pretty much no.

 

[[Nintex]]

So the support will be there....and imo, these games will stand out compared to MS's offering later this year.

I think all the Rare haters will eat delicious crow this holiday season. When they opened the new studio they talked about triple-A productions, so there's obviously more than just Natal Sports in development.

MS also seems confident in Rare, otherwise they wouldn't have let them open a new studio. Not to mention that if they'd jump the shark not only David Wise would've left but Robin Beanland and David Clynick as well. The company has hired new developers, programmers and artists. This new blood combined with Rare's old sauce is probably working on amazing projects as we speak.

 

[Ecstatic]

Is that really all that's been shown? I haven't been following every Natal blip on the radar, so I assumed I missed out on something really fantastic to explain the levels of hype around this piece of machinery. There must be something else.

I've heard that Fable 3 will have some kind of Natal support, nothing else that I know of.

Here's a link to that Burnout paradise gameplay: here

And Natal on Smallville: here

 

[JaggedSac]

Is that really all that's been shown? I haven't been following every Natal blip on the radar, so I assumed I missed out on something really fantastic to explain the levels of hype around this piece of machinery. There must be something else.

This is pretty neat, and something that differentiates it from the other schemes:

PSEye could detect a side kick such as this, but it could not detect a forward kick very accurately at all given that depth detection using only RGB is nigh impossible and incredibly inaccurate if a solution was put forth.

 

[TheOddOne]

Yeah that would have been even more direct and obvious (maybe a better choice for games but I'm not sure), but I don't believe you can't see the obvious similarities between the Wii strategy and Natal (whose technology was evaluated by Nintendo also iirc). It's not like MS invented anything or had to have foresight - I contend that quite a few gaffers would have similar views to MS if they saw a natal type technology's demo after the Wii bomb hit.Any tech minded people can "see the possibilities" in Natal, the problem is that these are just general possibilities, similar to ooooh so many trends that turned out not to exist anywhere but in technologists' minds.

So bacially your saying MS should just stop attracting casual players because thats Nintendo strategy?

Edit: Any tech minded person could see the wii-remote possibilities but they should stop because its just general possibibilities, similar to oooh so many trends that have turned out not to exist anywhere but in technologist' minds. See what I did there? How can somebody say 'it has potential but lets just throw it away, its gonna fail before we even try it' boggles my mind.

 

[Vinci]

They'll have silver accounts, with access to marketplace, XBLA, and be able to download game demos. Does a casual gamer need online multiplayer, or any any of the other bells and whistles that a gold account offers? Since we are using Wii as the metric, the answer is pretty much no.

I know. Just surprised that a console so structured around online gaming and DLC is asking devs and publishers to basically ignore those two core aspects of their design philosophies when addressing this new audience.

 

[lowrider007]

Calm the fuck down. The "core" gamer is a valid segment of the market, especially from a business perspective. It's the 80-20 rule; 20% of your audience makes up 80% of your sales. The core gamer (or any other core customer) is one that researches and spends a siginificant amount of time with a product or service. Although in numbers "casual" gamers dwarf casual gamers, satisfying core customers is often worth more effort based on their spending habits. Core gamers are not insignifcant in anyway despite your whining. If MS can target a wider audience while keeping the core customer happy they'll be wildly successful.

I agree mate, I'm not sure why certain people are so opposed to the 'core' terminology tbh, it's pretty obvious there is a divide in consumers, people seem to take it as being derogatory at times for no apparent reason.

 

[InterMoniker]

I've heard that Fable 3 will have some kind of Natal support, nothing else that I know of.

Here's a link to that Burnout paradise gameplay: here

And Natal on Smallville: here

That looks more frustrating than fun.

 

[Vinci]

So bacially your saying MS should just stop attracting casual players because thats Nintendo strategy?

They've started attracting casual players?

I agree mate, I'm not sure why certain people are so opposed to the 'core' terminology tbh, it's pretty obvious there is a divide in consumers, people seem to take it as being derogatory at times for no apparent reason.

Because the terminology has been misappropriated a million times this generation by people who don't have any understanding as to its actual meaning and use it, instead, as a way of derogatorily dismissing anything or anyone not 100% established within that description.

 

[Linkified]

Is that really all that's been shown? I haven't been following every Natal blip on the radar, so I assumed I missed out on something really fantastic to explain the levels of hype around this piece of machinery. There must be something else.

They showed Katamari Damarcy and Space Invaders Extreme being played with it, however, they said Burnout, Katamari and Space Invaders wouldn't be real games that worked with Natal.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Calm the fuck down. The "core" gamer is a valid segment of the market, especially from a business perspective. It's the 80-20 rule; 20% of your audience makes up 80% of your sales. The core gamer (or any other core customer) is one that researches and spends a siginificant amount of time with a product or service. Although in numbers "casual" gamers dwarf casual gamers, satisfying core customers is often worth more effort based on their spending habits. Core gamers are not insignifcant in anyway despite your whining. If MS can target a wider audience while keeping the core customer happy they'll be wildly successful.

Thing is, with development costs rising, you have to sell quite a lot of your games to make money, which means that you have to cater to more people at the same time, to a wider range of taste - which is where you get MW and AC and so on. This alone makes more specialised games less viable (or isn't that a really important trait of the "core"?)

Second, if you look at numbers, you can see that making stuff for the "20%" you're talking about lost a lot of money this gen. I think it's probably obvious to both MS and Sony that the old strategy doesn't work any more and they must have some of the new casual market, especially for the next generation. Just think about it: what'd happen to Sony if they had to launch a PS4 with the same strategy as they launched the PS3?

 

[Ecstatic]

That looks more frustrating than fun.

I would still love to try it. I'm not sure if Natal is meant to be used on racing games though? It doesn't quite seem to work as well as a controller would

They showed Katamari Damarcy and Space Invaders Extreme being played with it, however, they said Burnout, Katamari and Space Invaders wouldn't be real games that worked with Natal.

Katamari could work, infact, it could work very well with Natal.

 

[Vinci]

They showed Katamari Damarcy and Space Invaders Extreme being played with it, however, they said Burnout, Katamari and Space Invaders wouldn't be real games that worked with Natal.

...

So games they showed using it... aren't games that will actually use it?

Brilliant piece of marketing there.

 

[Flachmatuch]

So bacially your saying MS should just stop attracting casual players because thats Nintendo strategy?

MS "shouldn't" even exist in this current form :-/ Would have much less problems with a company that actually had to have at least some market discipline. Of course there's always a lot of copying, but with this kind of overwhelming power MS has, it's a surefire long-term strategy, which is completely anti-market. Simply put, they can always just copy what you do (while adding more technology and marketing) and eventually, you're just going to lose out.

 

[Linkified]

...

So games they showed using it... aren't games that will actually use it?

Brilliant piece of marketing there.

Nope just games patched with the controls in to show look at this, you can probably do better if you build from ground up.

Its like when Nintendo let the press play the submarine game to show how the DS worked originaly.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Afrikan]

I think all the Rare haters will eat delicious crow this holiday season. When they opened the new studio they talked about triple-A productions, so there's obviously more than just Natal Sports in development.

MS also seems confident in Rare, otherwise they wouldn't have let them open a new studio. Not to mention that if they'd jump the shark not only David Wise would've left but Robin Beanland and David Clynick as well. The company has hired new developers, programmers and artists. This new blood combined with Rare's old sauce is probably working on amazing projects as we speak.

thanks for the info..... I was just going off what I have read on the internet that gave me the impression that MS was going the more "casual" route for Natal.....where as it seems Sony likes to show off their tech in their PS3, so might you have casual games with amazing visuals....or some new different type of experience out of Japan.

But I'd love to see what Rare is cooking up.

 

[Ecstatic]

...

So games they showed using it... aren't games that will actually use it?

Brilliant piece of marketing there.

We still have throw the paint and hit the medicine ball to look forward too!

 

[Vinci]

MS "shouldn't" even exist in this current form :-/ Would have much less problems with a company that actually had to have at least some market discipline. Of course there's always a lot of copying, but with this kind of overwhelming power MS has, it's a surefire long-term strategy, which is completely anti-market. Simply put, they can always just copy what you do (while adding more technology and marketing) and eventually, you're just going to lose out.

Which is why I'm still predicting a Microsoft victory next generation, even if it's a slight victory over Nintendo. I don't know if Nintendo can keep innovating successfully to offset the massive assets MS has at its disposal. Nintendo will still own Japan, obviously, but that doesn't mean as much as it used to.

Nope just games patched with the controls in to show look at this, you can probably do better if you build from ground up.

Its like when Nintendo let the press play the submarine game to show how the DS worked originaly.

Nothing wrong with that.

Were the demonstrations of those games particularly impressive? Were there articles describing how it felt to play them? I never heard of these.

 

[Linkified]

MS "shouldn't" even exist in this current form :-/ Would have much less problems with a company that actually had to have at least some market discipline. Of course there's always a lot of copying, but with this kind of overwhelming power MS has, it's a surefire long-term strategy, which is completely anti-market. Simply put, they can always just copy what you do (while adding more technology and marketing) and eventually, you're just going to lose out.

They innovated with Xbox Live in the console market.

But really if Microsoft annoys you so much why post. Write it down and delete it would probably be good for your blood pressure.

 

[Pudding Tame]

I know. Just surprised that a console so structured around online gaming and DLC is asking devs and publishers to basically ignore those two core aspects of their design philosophies when addressing this new audience.

DLC is not being ignored, silver accounts have access to that.

 

[JaggedSac]

...

So games they showed using it... aren't games that will actually use it?

Brilliant piece of marketing there.

The only people that they HAVE to get behind Natal at this point is developers. People cannot even pre-order this thing. What they are showing to the public are just proof of concepts and things that show the abilities of the system. Kinda like how the dude was testing the system by break dancing in front of it, which is where the image I posted a couple posts ago came from. The Ricochet game show pretty much the entire capacity of the skeletal generation system, which is 80% of Natal functionality.

 

[Monty Mole]

Does anyone think it's going to be funny to see Nintendo steal the "core" gaming spotlight Tat E3 with Zelda while MS and Sony faff about with party game collections :lol

That's not going to happen given the gazillions of third party "core" games that will be there for the 360/PS3.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Which is why I'm still predicting a Microsoft victory next generation, even if it's a slight victory over Nintendo. I don't know if Nintendo can keep innovating successfully to offset the massive assets MS has at its disposal. Nintendo will still own Japan, obviously, but that doesn't mean as much as it used to.

Yeah, noone can keep bringing out Wii level stuff continuously for all eternity. Of course markets change and so on, but this is still pretty probable.

 

[Touchdown]

This is probably going to be one of the biggest E3's in recent memory. I'm looking forward to what exactly Microsoft has planned for Natal games wise. I also of course can't wait for the Zelda unveil.

 

[TheOddOne]

MS "shouldn't" even exist in this current form :-/ Would have much less problems with a company that actually had to have at least some market discipline. Of course there's always a lot of copying, but with this kind of overwhelming power MS has, it's a surefire long-term strategy, which is completely anti-market. Simply put, they can always just copy what you do (while adding more technology and marketing) and eventually, you're just going to lose out.

I still don't see how they are copying anybody. Its not the same product, it does not even have the same design. How are they copying while adding 'more technology and marketing' for something the other competitors are not doing? Hell if MS is updating the technology for the user that bought the thing then I would not call that anti-market.

 

[Monty Mole]

MS "shouldn't" even exist in this current form :-/ Would have much less problems with a company that actually had to have at least some market discipline. Of course there's always a lot of copying, but with this kind of overwhelming power MS has, it's a surefire long-term strategy, which is completely anti-market. Simply put, they can always just copy what you do (while adding more technology and marketing) and eventually, you're just going to lose out.

From a platform POV, Sony has been the company doing the "copying" this generation. Sixaxis was a blatant late add-in to combat the Wii. PSN, DLC, downloadable low-budget games, trophies, etc, all ideas seen earlier on 360.

The PS-wand is probably more reminiscent of the Wii than Natal is of the Eye-Toy. Natal's biggest difference over Eye-Toy is probably not even the IR, but its software SDK - allowing all games to take advantage of the Natal hardware in the same way all games take advantage of Live.

 

[Linkified]

Were the demonstrations of those games particularly impressive? Were there articles describing how it felt to play them? I never heard of these.

Yes, there were impressions. The one that made the most sense from a natural control viewpoint was the Katamari one I think Sam Kennedy had some impressions on 1up.

 

[anonymousAversa]

Avatar Fit or somthing
Avatar Sport's
Touch little boys
Your in the movie 2
anime boob touching for japan

anddd i'm laughing :lol

 

[Flachmatuch]

They innovated with Xbox Live in the console market.

They built a technically very competent system, and did have a couple of awesome and well executed ideas (like achievements and gamer points), but I don't see how Xbox Live itself is an innovation. Most of the features it has are pretty obvious (but well done, I'm not contesting that) and already had been on PCs, but they made a very cool integrated system. Still, no matter how well made it is, it's not really "innovative", it's just an application of general technologies to gaming.

 

[KaYotiX]

Oh my gosh Natal I am so very interezzzzzzzzzzz. Ugh, E3 is going to be trash this year isn't it?

i bet we get some great Gifs again this year out of it :lol

 

[Vizion28]

I think all the Rare haters will eat delicious crow this holiday season. When they opened the new studio they talked about triple-A productions, so there's obviously more than just Natal Sports in development.

MS also seems confident in Rare, otherwise they wouldn't have let them open a new studio. Not to mention that if they'd jump the shark not only David Wise would've left but Robin Beanland and David Clynick as well. The company has hired new developers, programmers and artists. This new blood combined with Rare's old sauce is probably working on amazing projects as we speak.

Eat crow? I doubt it. Rare is far from the creative developer it used to be in the 90s. They are likely not going to make any big budget Natal games. They are probably working on a me too Wii Fit game are some other casual game. Moreover Rare has no experience making those type of games especially with camera motion control games.

 

[Monty Mole]

They built a technically very competent system, and did have a couple of awesome and well executed ideas (like achievements and gamer points), but I don't see how Xbox Live itself is an innovation. Most of the features it has are pretty obvious (but well done, I'm not contesting that) and already had been on PCs, but they made a very cool integrated system. Still, no matter how well made it is, it's not really "innovative", it's just an application of general technologies to gaming.

And yet Sony is still 'catching up' with Xbox Live. If the features are 'pretty obvious', then surely PSN would have had Trophies, cross-game chat, parties etc from the start?

It's easy to say they're obvious features in retrospect, but there's a reason why Live is so popular and why 360 has been so successful in the online space.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

My problem is that there seems to be nothing but money behind Natal, not a single game or gameplay idea, no coherent strategy, no new way of looking at what's happening in the market - it's just the same Microsoft strategy of "let's do the same thing as are competitors, only with more money and thus more/better technology", and still, the (official) hype level is very high. I really hope breaking into a market is not this easy and you need actual talent and experience for it, it's not just about a trivial "take x and make it bigger" pattern.

I don't see it like that at all. If motion sensing was all there was to Natal, then sure, I'd have to agree it's just a bigger and better approach to an already established paradigm. But it's not, motion sensing is just one part of the Natal equation (albeit most prominently featured in the promotional push because of Wii's success) and I really see it as something that has the potential to fundamentally change the way we interface with consoles (and computers, since Microsoft seems to be intent on bringing Natal to PCs as well).

Whether they really realize that potential remains to be seen.

 

[[Nintex]]

Eat crow? I doubt it. Rare is far from the creative developer it used to be in the 90s. They are likely not going to make any big budget Natal games. They are probably working on a me too Wii Fit game are some other casual game. Moreover Rare has no experience making those type of games especially with camera motion control games.

So that's one fresh dish of crow, what do you like to drink sir?

 

[jaypah]

Is that really all that's been shown? I haven't been following every Natal blip on the radar, so I assumed I missed out on something really fantastic to explain the levels of hype around this piece of machinery. There must be something else.

what hype? sure a piece of the gaming community writes about it because some mouth piece brought it up but they do that with anything that these PR people say. i would love to see all of these articles where people are frothing over Natal. all i see are people reporting that it's coming and that they played with it and it seemed either neat or had a ways to go before it was ready. hell, look around any Natal thread and see the seething hate for it. people are either saying they'll wait and see or they just flat-out hate the product. and what's even funnier is people keep saying "where are the games, where are the games"? as if MS hasn't said constantly that they weren't going to have a blowout until E3. it's as if people are just looking for reasons to troll it. it's like constantly walking into the kitchen of a restaurant and asking where your food is when the waitress already told you it would be a 20 minute wait. great, now i'm doing the damn food analogies. and this isn't all directed at you Vinci, your post just happened to be the one i latched onto.

anyway, i'm waiting for E3 to see what's up with these new forms of gaming. Arc could be pretty awesome and i think Sony will have some really creative games for it. Natal has a big chance to be seen as the stand out product because of how radically different it is but that also seems like it's biggest hurdle from a game design point of view. but making an opinion either way before these products are fully shown off just seems kind of stupid.

i'm not even going to get into the posters who make remarks about the wii concerning Arc and Natal. most of those are clearly coming from a space where there's not much to discuss as their mind is already made up.

MS "shouldn't" even exist in this current form :-/ Would have much less problems with a company that actually had to have at least some market discipline. Of course there's always a lot of copying, but with this kind of overwhelming power MS has, it's a surefire long-term strategy, which is completely anti-market. Simply put, they can always just copy what you do (while adding more technology and marketing) and eventually, you're just going to lose out.

oh, so you just flat-out don't like MS? i can dig it. at the very least it certainly makes all of your post a lot more understandable.

 

[professor_t]

NEW COKE.