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[Angry Fork]

I think ego assessment centers should be banned entirely but as long as they exist she should be able to participate.

btw what's the difference between transsexual/transgendered and when should they be used?

 

[FrontalMonk]

I think ego assessment centers should be banned entirely but as long as they exist she should be able to participate.

btw what's the difference between transsexual/transgendered and when should they be used?

I believe transsexual refers to someone who has undergone sexual reassignment surgery, while transgendered refers to someone who has not, but identifies as the gender that doesn't match their biological sex (so still taking hormone pills and whatnot).

It does say "MISS" Universe Canada. So I guess I can understand the reason to disqualify her since no amount of surgery or pills is going to change the fact that an X chromosome sperm cell fertilized the egg.

or you could read the thread and realize transwomen are women.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

It does say "MISS" Universe Canada. So I guess I can understand the reason to disqualify her since no amount of surgery or pills is going to change the fact that an X chromosome sperm cell fertilized the egg.

 

[fireside]

btw what's the difference between transsexual/transgendered and when should they be used?

According to wikipedia, a transgender person is someone who doesn’t fit within the normal gender roles, sort of an umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers, gender-queers etc; while transsexual specifically refers to people who identify as the gender opposite their birth sex, but not necessarily undergoing hormone treatment or has gotten genital reassignment surgery.

But definitions vary. For example, my computer’s dictionary defines transgender as:
“identified with a gender other than the biological one”

while it defines transsexual as:
“1) a person born with the physical characteristics of one sex who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.
2) a person who has undergone surgery and hormone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.”

I think wikipedia’s definition of transgender is a little more comprehensive, while both definitions of transsexual are pretty much the same. When should each be used? Honestly, that’s a hard question to answer. I generally just use “trans” because the terms can be a bit confusing.

 

[Orayn]

It does say "MISS" Universe Canada. So I guess I can understand the reason to disqualify her since no amount of surgery or pills is going to change the fact that an X chromosome sperm cell fertilized the egg.

I didn't realize genetic tests were a part of the contest.

 

[Kinyou]

It does say "MISS" Universe Canada. So I guess I can understand the reason to disqualify her since no amount of surgery or pills is going to change the fact that an X chromosome sperm cell fertilized the egg.

I'm pretty sure that the that the rulebooks of beauty pageants don't say anything about the number of chromosomes you need to have. Or would women with down syndrome automatically be disqualified as well?

 

[InfiniteNine]

What beliefs do trans people have?

Cupcakes rule!

 

[thetrin]

Look out boys, we got a bicyclesexual here.

As a heterosexual man, she will always just be a bicycle to me. I would not have sex with that bicycle.

 

[Gaborn]

It does say "MISS" Universe Canada. So I guess I can understand the reason to disqualify her since no amount of surgery or pills is going to change the fact that an X chromosome sperm cell fertilized the egg.

Suppose this was about a woman with AIS, that is, someone who is genetically XY but because her body is essentially immune to the effects of testosterone so she develops as a female even though "genetically" she's male. In some cases that can mean development of a full vagina, etc. Should she, in your view be barred from competing because of her chromosomes?

 

[7Th]

A contest that has physical beauty is already shallow and inherently unfair to people not born with what society deems desirable, but I can see one argument against plastic surgery being allowed. It's expensive to the point where you could argue that whoever is richest will win because they can afford the most surgeries. The makeup and other stuff isn't prohibitively expensive. So if you wanna make it fair for all income ranges, you gotta ban that.

But like I said, if physical beauty is a factor, there's already unfairness based on genes.

There is no competition in which there is no unfairness based on genes; you don't become "the fastest" or "the strongest" or "the smartest" through hard work alone.

 

[Triple U]

I’m sorry, but I already explained why considering trans people as their birth sex is an insulting thing to do. I realize that most people do not encounter these sorts of issues in real life, but that shouldn’t be an excuse: this thread has already explained why calling trans people by the birth sex is wrong. If those people had actually read the thread they would have understood that it was hurtful and that they shouldn’t do it. It’s not even like they had to go to some esoteric website to figure this out. They just had to read the thread that they were posting in.

See, I don't agree with this. If you do not agree with mother nature thats fine and dandy, do what you will, but to act like its some sort of witchhunt to refer to a person as their birthsex is insecurity in my eyes. People should able to dis-agree with transgenderism just as they are able to agree with it. Calling someone who was born a man, a man is not demeaning at all. Its a fact. I for one will respect their wishes and call people what they want but I should have the right to respectfully refuse. The fact that it is so punishable here is disparaging.

 

[Orayn]

See, I don't agree with this. If you do not agree with mother nature thats fine and dandy, do what you will, but to act like its some sort of witchhunt to refer to a person as their birthsex is insecurity in my eyes. People should able to dis-agree with transgenderism just as they are able to agree with it. Calling someone who was born a man, a man is not demeaning at all. Its a fact. I for one will respect their wishes and call people what they want but I should have the right to respectfully refuse. The fact that it is so punishable here is disparaging.

It's only "a fact" if you have difficulties understanding the differences between gender and sex. They are factually not the same thing.

 

[Triple U]

It's only "a fact" if you have difficulties understanding the differences between gender and sex. They are factually not the same thing.

Sex is a characteristic that help defines gender. It is biological and for the most part black and white.

There is no competition in which there is no unfairness based on genes; you don't become "the fastest" or "the strongest" or "the smartest" through hardwork.

That is nothing but a popular misconception.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Sex is a characteristic that help defines gender. It is biological and for the most part black and white.

not black and white, AIS, etc.

Also, it is not an opinion of some that sex and gender can be completely opposite of one another, and it is extremely short sighted to assume so. Also, as many many many people have said in this thread, playing the pronoun game IS offensive, IS insulting, and IS demeaning. You can debate all day whether or not you think it's a good idea, but when someone tells you not to do something because they are offended and insulted by it, typically most people will not keep doing it, because that's what respectful people do.

See, I don't agree with this. If you do not agree with mother nature thats fine and dandy, do what you will, but to act like its some sort of witchhunt to refer to a person as their birthsex is insecurity in my eyes. People should able to dis-agree with transgenderism just as they are able to agree with it. Calling someone who was born a man, a man is not demeaning at all. Its a fact. I for one will respect their wishes and call people what they want but I should have the right to respectfully refuse. The fact that it is so punishable here is disparaging.

I think this is the part that I have such a huge issue with. If you aren't trans, you don't get to tell someone who's trans what they are and are not allowed to be offended by. It's like telling a black man that he shouldn't be so insecure about himself, and shouldn't be offended with someone calling him the n word. Like, you can almost make the case that you're helping someone by trying to remove the stigma, but the n word is a charged word, it has inherent meaning, it is a demeaning slur, and it is offensive. You don't get to tell someone they shouldn't be offended by it, and this is no different.

 

[7Th]

That is nothing but a popular misconception.

Uh huh. A popular misconception with that is widely accepted as true by scientists through the world.

 

[Triple U]

not black and white, AIS, etc.

Notce I said for the most part.



Also, it is not an opinion of some that sex and gender can be completely opposite of one another, and it is extremely short sighted to assume so.


Why exactly is it shortsighted and why is it not fact, given the definitions of both?

Also, as many many many people have said in this thread, playing the pronoun game IS offensive, IS insulting, and IS demeaning.

Again someone getting upset about an factual statement is insecurity. Its like me getting offended because someone called me an African-American.

You can debate all day whether or not you think it's a good idea, but when someone tells you not to do something because they are offended and insulted by it, typically most people will not keep doing it, because that's what respectful people do.

Which, as I stated, I would happily comply with. Still shouldn't take my right to disagree/refuse with it.

.

Uh huh. A popular misconception with that is widely accepted as true by scientists through the world.

I've yet to see an actual study say anything definitve. Its largley inconclusive.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/05/12/are-elite-athletes-equipped-with-sports-genes/

 

[fireside]

See, I don't agree with this. If you do not agree with mother nature thats fine and dandy, do what you will, but to act like its some sort of witchhunt to refer to a person as their birthsex is insecurity in my eyes.

How is not tolerating insults a sign of insecurity?

Calling someone who was born a man, a man is not demeaning at all. Its a fact.

That doesn’t somehow make it less demeaning when you continue to refer to them as men after they have told you not to. You can’t call a gay man “faggot” and then tell them that they shouldn’t be insulted, because, after all, the definition of faggot is “a male homosexual.”

I for one will respect their wishes and call people what they want but I should have the right to respectfully refuse. The fact that it is so punishable here is disparaging.

This is a private forum, you don’t have any rights. Outside of the forum, you are free to call people whatever you want, but you should be aware that you are insulting them.

 

[Triple U]

How is not tolerating insults a sign of insecurity?
Because its not an insult.


That doesn’t somehow make it less demeaning when you continue to refer to them as men after they have told you not to. You can’t call a gay man “faggot” and then tell them that they shouldn’t be insulted, because, after all, the definition of faggot is “a male homosexual.”

Faggot is a deragotory term. Not sure what your point is?

This is a private forum, you don’t have any rights. Outside of the forum, you are free to call people whatever you want, but you should be aware that you are insulting them.

Well I'm sure EvilLore wants to provide the most user-friendly experience possible. Im sure he would like to know anything that might be a conflict to that interest.

.

 

[freenudemacusers]

what are you even saying now with these bolds and periods.

 

[FrontalMonk]

I think I'll just repost this, because you didn't seem to get it last time.

If you aren't trans, you don't get to tell someone who's trans what they are and are not allowed to be offended by.

 

[btkadams]

.

how is it not the same as an insult? do you believe people don't consider it an insult when they call justin bieber a girl when he identifies as a boy? it seems like the only reason you could not be getting this is because you don't seem to believe in the validity of transsexualism.

 

[dojokun]

.

So you think it's more user-friendly to call people men when they've spent all their lives identifying as a woman?

 

[Triple U]

what are you even saying now with these bolds and periods.

My replys are plain, the bolded is what im replying to.

I think I'll just repost this, because you didn't seem to get it last time.

If you aren't trans, you don't get to tell someone who's trans what they are and are not allowed to be offended by.

Its not really about what offends transexuals. Its about whether the comment is deragotory in nature as per the TOS. I could be offended that you call me a Cavs fan, doesn't mean you should be banned.

 

[charlequin]

Everyone in this thread was banned for exactly that same reason sadly. No communication about how their views are wrong, no discussion about their views and no trying to change their views. Just a straight up ban.

GAF is not a school or a non-profit outreach organization; it is a discussion message board. Whether people learn about transgender issues and develop a nuanced opinion on the subject is up to them; our goal is to maintain a civil and accepting community for our broad user base, which (relevant to this particular point) includes quite a few transgender people.

You are correct to identify that there is a prescribed range of opinions on the subject; GAF is not interested in playing host to derogatory, discriminatory, or hateful positions on specific demographic groups, as identified in our Terms of Service:

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use NeoGAF to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise in violation of any law. Sexual, racial, or ethnic slurs will not be tolerated in any form and are bannable on the first offense.

Willful use of incorrect pronouns to refer to transgender individuals or aggressive attempts to refute the reality of transgenderism as a concept straightforwardly fail these guidelines and are not permissible on NeoGAF. This is not an "alternate belief" that should be tolerated, any more than white supremacy or outright misogyny is; anyone looking for a community that accepts these kinds of attitudes will have to look elsewhere.

As Kabouter has noted, we regularly have people who participate in these threads and question or debate the underlying question without getting banned, but it's extremely important to understand that respect and appropriate behavior comes first here. When transgenderism comes up, you're not participating in an abstract philosophical debate; you're talking about the real life experiences of some of the people participating in the conversation with you. That demands a much greater level of caution than many other types of discussions, and it means that a level of flippancy and disregard for other posters that might fly in a debate about a videogame will lead to bannings here.

With all that said, I want to note three things here.

First, this kind of meta-GAF discussion is not on topic for this thread (so I would appreciate it if people would return to posting about the topic at hand.)

Secondly, moderation policy is not up for debate. If you are unhappy with the policy expressed in this thread, you are welcome to (politely) PM a moderator to register your complaint or to ask for clarification, but policy is not decided democratically and will not be changed as a result of these discussions.

And thirdly, derailing this thread in order to grind a personal axe with the moderation staff is pretty disrespectful to the other people who were participating in the thread. There's nothing about religion at all in this thread and insisting on making everyone talk about it here (under threat of hypocrisy accusations) is definitely frowned-upon behavior.

 

[freenudemacusers]

oic, on phone so it wasn't clear.

but, disparaging someone based on sex or gender is against the tos here. it's pretty plainly spelled out?

 

[theDeeDubs]

I have mixed feelings about this. I assume there was no rule in place because at the time Miss Universe started this potential situation never came up as a possibility. To what I assume is a large majority of people, sex and gender are the same thing. I don't think that belief is "wrong and offensive", it's just a difference in semantics. That being said, regardless of your belief, the respectful thing to do is to refer to them by their preferred gender.

As far as being DQ'd, I feel like she should be allowed to be in it. If she looks as good or better than other contestants her biological sex status shouldn't matter. The cis females need to step up their game though becuase she puts a lot of them to shame.

 

[fireside]

Because its not an insult.

Saying a trans woman was born a male is not an insult. All the articles referring to the topic at had do so, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that; a lot of people may not know what a transsexual is, and that’s not a bad way of explaining it. But saying “you are a man because you were born a man” is insulting. Using the wrong pronouns is also insulting.

Faggot is a deragotory term. Not sure what your point is?

My point is that factually faggot means “a male homosexual.” Just because something is factual doesn’t mean it’s not demeaning.

 

[lethial]

Man I thought Dairy Queen had something to do with it. Damn, need more sleep.

 

[Triple U]

how is it not the same as an insult? do you believe people don't consider it an insult when they call justin bieber a girl when he's a boy and identifies as a boy? it seems like the only reason you could not be getting this is because you don't seem to believe in the validity of transsexualism.

If someone calls justin a female when he was born a male, it is an insult. If someone calls a transfemale who was born a male, a male than it shouldn't be an insult.

edit: I will discontinue this argument due to charlequins request.

 

[Orayn]

If someone calls justin a female when he was born a male, it is an insult. If someone calls a transfemale who was born a male, a male than it shouldn't be an insult.

If you met someone who looked female, identified as female, acted female, and for all intents and purposes was female, would you change the pronouns you used with her if you later found out that she was born male? If so, why? Do a person's chromosomes really matter to you that much?

 

[Archer]

Man I thought Dairy Queen had something to do with it. Damn, need more sleep.

ditto. mmm, blizzards...

 

[Triple U]

If you met someone who looked female, identified as female, acted female, and for all intents and purposes was female, would you change the pronouns you used with her if you later found out that she was born male? If so, why? Do a person's chromosomes really matter to you that much?

As I said Im done with the discussion, but if you look at my previous posts you will get your answer.

 

[Zzoram]

Wait, how many of you guys actually watched the video? It's pretty awesome.

The women go on about how they think men who become women would have a huge advantage in beauty pageants because they would have longer legs, be taller, have no cellulite, and have better muscle tone.

I never even thought of those things, but they are probably right.

 

[FrontalMonk]

ditto. mmm, blizzards...

yo man, I had some frozen custard at Rita's last night...nothin like some frozen custard.

also, to get the thread back on topic, the Miss Universe CA really ought to give a more detailed statement on why she was DQ'd.

 

[confused]

GAF is not a school or a non-profit outreach organization; it is a discussion message board. Whether people learn about transgender issues and develop a nuanced opinion on the subject is up to them; our goal is to maintain a civil and accepting community for our broad user base, which (relevant to this particular point) includes quite a few transgender people.

You are correct to identify that there is a prescribed range of opinions on the subject; GAF is not interested in playing host to derogatory, discriminatory, or hateful positions on specific demographic groups, as identified in our Terms of Service:



Willful use of incorrect pronouns to refer to transgender individuals or aggressive attempts to refute the reality of transgenderism as a concept straightforwardly fail these guidelines and are not permissible on NeoGAF. This is not an "alternate belief" that should be tolerated, any more than white supremacy or outright misogyny is; anyone looking for a community that accepts these kinds of attitudes will have to look elsewhere.

As Kabouter has noted, we regularly have people who participate in these threads and question or debate the underlying question without getting banned, but it's extremely important to understand that respect and appropriate behavior comes first here. When transgenderism comes up, you're not participating in an abstract philosophical debate; you're talking about the real life experiences of some of the people participating in the conversation with you. That demands a much greater level of caution than many other types of discussions, and it means that a level of flippancy and disregard for other posters that might fly in a debate about a videogame will lead to bannings here.

With all that said, I want to note three things here.

First, this kind of meta-GAF discussion is not on topic for this thread (so I would appreciate it if people would return to posting about the topic at hand.)

Secondly, moderation policy is not up for debate. If you are unhappy with the policy expressed in this thread, you are welcome to (politely) PM a moderator to register your complaint or to ask for clarification, but policy is not decided democratically and will not be changed as a result of these discussions.

And thirdly, derailing this thread in order to grind a personal axe with the moderation staff is pretty disrespectful to the other people who were participating in the thread. There's nothing about religion at all in this thread and insisting on making everyone talk about it here (under threat of hypocrisy accusations) is definitely frowned-upon behavior.

Point taken, loud and clear. thanks.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

If you met someone who looked female, identified as female, acted female, and for all intents and purposes was female, would you change the pronouns you used with her if you later found out that she was born male? If so, why?

Initially? In my mind, yes, out loud, no, because the person finds the descriptor insulting. I can't believe that people expect others to learn that someone had undergone surgery to change their biological sex and instantly forget what they just learned. That's not something you're going to forget. You're going to think about that.

 

[7Th]

I've yet to see an actual study say anything definitve. Its largley inconclusive.

http://healthland.time.com/2010/05/12/are-elite-athletes-equipped-with-sports-genes/

How do you go from "a combination of nature and nurture" to "genes are irrelevant"?

 

[GungHo]

Wait, why can't contestants be married?

It ruins the "a parade of virgins, all for me" fantasy. Same with pregnancy.

Can private organizations not be sued for discrimination?

It's difficult. It depends on what constitutes "employment" in your state/province/country, whether or not the state/provice/country has "at-will" employment, and whether or not they're discriminating against a specifc, protected class as defined in the jurisdiction of your state/province/country.

I don't know about Canada's laws, but I do not know off hand where "transsexual/transgender" is a protected class in any context in the US except in some local jurisdictions.

I doubt that a contest would be considered employment unless there was a service contract involved (which might well be possible with the larger America/Universe-style contests in order to protect/capture associated earnings).

I guess you could try suing for loss of potential earnings, but you'd have to establish that you were going to win the contest, which she might have trouble doing (as anyone would). You'd also have to establish what those earnings would be and demonstrate that they were in the bag, either by saying "we had these contracts and they were lost since you kicked us out" or throw a Hail Mary and hope that you can sway someone that if you show them the last 10 years of what happens to Miss Universe winners that it would have also applied to you.

 

[dojokun]

There is no competition in which there is no unfairness based on genes; you don't become "the fastest" or "the strongest" or "the smartest" through hardwork.

I'd say physical training and studying does let you become fastest, strongest, or smartest.

 

[Triple U]

How do you go from "a combination of nature and nurture" to "genes are irrelevant"?

What?

 

[shaowebb]

I say she has the right to compete. Let her into the competition. Being born "female" doesn't specify whether they mean gender or sex. Its obvious this competitor while being born of male sex was obviously of female Gender and recognized this trait in themself extremely early in life and took steps quite young toward gender reassignment.

They always self identified their gender as female and not male. Let them compete.

 

[Arment]

Surgically made beauty should be banned anyways. Whether or not you were born female or male.

 

[tmarques]

Surgically made beauty should be banned anyways. Whether or not you were born female or male.

That's what I was thinking. If you're going to allow women with fake noses, silicone implants, lipos, etc. you might as well allow contestants who weren't born female.

 

[Gaborn]

Surgically made beauty should be banned anyways. Whether or not you were born female or male.

I agree with this in theory but considering this particular pagent's history that argument doesn't really apply.

 

[lenovox1]

Oh I didn't know that. I just hope that their criteria involve a little more than just good looks.

Off-topic: For the Miss America competition, swimsuit and evening wear make up about a third (35%) of their score. The talent portion is another 35%, and the interview and on-stage question make up the rest.

 

[7Th]

I'd say physical training and studying does let you become fastest, strongest, or smartest.

Just because you train or study you won't become the fastest or the strongest or whatever; you need to have the genes for it. Working as hard as possible is necessary, but it doesn't warrant success.

What?

My point was that genetic advantage exists in any kind of competition, not that it is the only variable that matters. If you argued against what I posted, you were essentially saying "genes are irrelevant, nurture and hard work are the only things that matter".

 

[Platy]

It does say "MISS" Universe Canada. So I guess I can understand the reason to disqualify her since no amount of surgery or pills is going to change the fact that an X chromosome sperm cell fertilized the egg.

I just LOVE how you showed how much you know of biology on this sentence xD

Spoiler

Except if she suffers some intersex condition, it was an Y chromosome sperm that fertilized the egg that gave her to life

Also, Klinefelter's

Wait, how many of you guys actually watched the video? It's pretty awesome.

The women go on about how they think men who become women would have a huge advantage in beauty pageants because they would have longer legs, be taller, have no cellulite, and have better muscle tone.

I never even thought of those things, but they are probably right.

Except they are COMPLETLY wrong.

If you have the "advantage" of having longer legs and be taller means you need to GO THROUGH MALE PUBERTY ... wich also means you will have a bigger ribcage, a much bigger shoulder, a square jawline and lets not forget all the hair and ugly stuff.

To not have cellulite and have easier muscle tone means that the person must not take a single pill of hormone therapy, wich will also make stuff like fat distribution and breast development very complicated

Basicaly, someone who went to HRT in the begining of puberty like her don't have ANY of those advantages AND each "advantage" they say comes with like five disadvantages unless they are basicaly saying that someone like The Rock in a dress would be the perfect Miss contestant =P

 

[Zoe]

Basicaly, someone who went to HRT in the begining of puberty like her don't have ANY of those advantages AND each "advantage" they say comes with like five disadvantages unless they are basicaly saying that someone like The Rock in a dress would be the perfect Miss contestant =P

Nobody answered when I asked this earlier in the thread, but maybe you could chime in. Isn't it possible that hormone therapy itself during puberty can provide an advantage in that a transgendered girl may develop more womanly features than a born girl who only produces an average amount of the hormones naturally?

 

[lexi]

I just LOVE how you showed how much you know of biology on this sentence xD

Spoiler

Except if she suffers some intersex condition, it was an Y chromosome sperm that fertilized the egg that gave her to life

Also, Klinefelter's



Except they are COMPLETLY wrong.

If you have the "advantage" of having longer legs and be taller means you need to GO THROUGH MALE PUBERTY ... wich also means you will have a bigger ribcage, a much bigger shoulder, a square jawline and lets not forget all the hair and ugly stuff.

To not have cellulite and have easier muscle tone means that the person must not take a single pill of hormone therapy, wich will also make stuff like fat distribution and breast development very complicated

Basicaly, someone who went to HRT in the begining of puberty like her don't have ANY of those advantages AND each "advantage" they say comes with like five disadvantages unless they are basicaly saying that someone like The Rock in a dress would be the perfect Miss contestant =P

Their argument boils down to the fact they believe men have an unfair advantage cause men make better women than women. It's laughable.

 

[MutFox]

Surgically made beauty should be banned anyways. Whether or not you were born female or male.

Yep, especially when they are role models for younger girls...
Young girls will grow up thinking they need to go under the knife to have a chance.