No, it is not the same. When you put their gender in quotations for example, you are attacking their fundamental feelings of identity. It is at the most basic physical level.
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Miss Universe Canada DQs Transsexual Contestant
- Thread starter soultron
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No, it is not the same. When you put their gender in quotations for example, you are attacking their fundamental feelings of identity. It is at the most basic physical level.
I'm not touching that one with a 65 foot pole. It's a ban-trap.
Besides, I'm not fully versed on transgenderism, you better ask one of the many transgendered people in this thread.
Putting the gender in quotation marks is a way for some to show that they aren't too sure if calling a transgendered person a he/she is accepted or not. There are still plenty of people who are wholly uneducated on the subject.
When you piss all over someone's religion, it could be hurtful to that person too, but that's accepted here on GAF.
Something tells me I probably won't make the end of the day if I stay in this thread. Just wanted to show some of the hypocrisy that goes around here.
mescalineeyes
Banned
Its been made clear again and again in the thread that transgendered people wish to be addressed by the proper pronoun. Putting something in quotations is questioning the validity of how they see themselves. I don't think there is any way to conclude otherwise. We can agree to disagree.
There is zero tolerance for people who feel the need to be offensive when giving their opinion, giving your opinion is not banned. You'll find quite a few users in this thread, and even more in the previous transgender thread we had, who weren't banned for what you are implying we have a 'zero tolerance' stance on.
freenudemacusers
Member
so you are confident enough to say they have certain beliefs but won't explain what those beliefs are when asked a simple question?
And really, why defend the use of quotes. It's pretty clear in terms of intent.
Very well, what's the excuse for letting people shit all over religion ? Is that because it's an opinion, too ?
freenudemacusers
Member
What? I'm not the one making the absurd equivocation.
I can only tell you that I've banned quite a few for being extremely disrespectful of religious people. I think my first three bans as a mod were all for people trolling religious threads.
Edit: I should also say that if you see anyone cross the line, you should feel free to PM an online mod. Just because something hasn't been modded, doesn't mean it's not bannable.
Going combative on a guy that's already said that he's afraid expressing his opinion can't help. You need to know his opinion in order to most effectively change it right?
freenudemacusers
Member
That's why I was asking for his opinion, and rationale for comparing this to religion.
And he's right - it is a ban-trap. Especially when people are more interested in telling you how wrong you are than actually trying to provide a new perspective. Not everyone is going be as pleasantly tact when it comes to explaining their long held beliefs.
He knows the road that conversation takes though. It played out plenty of times in the transgenderwhendoyoutell thread. Because you can't even be wrong in that way. Baseless as it is, its still a common view.
Define large?
Yes, in the same way I'm confident enough to say muslims have certain beliefs, but can't explain them to you.
The defense of the quotations is because he might've been misunderstood. In real life, when coming into encounter with transgendered people I'm never quite sure how I should adress them, either. I usually just ask how they'd prefer to be reffered to and avoid bad situations. The intent is always clear when on a witch-hunt. At least let them express why they chose to use the quotations.
Nice to know there are still some mods who do, but sadly I've seen mods take part inthe mocking of religion and that has probably tainted my stance here. I'll keep in mind to PM somebody when I see something like that happenning again.
Even though it's not directed at me, My opinion is not the one that needs changing, I'm fully in support of transgendered people. Doesn't mean I know, or have to know, everything that goes along with transgenderism.
The rationale, if you read my post, was showing the hypocrisy of the "zero-tolerance" stance mods take in these threads. Compared to the anything goes mentality prevalent in religion threads.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
What Jburton is saying here is on a personal level and I agree with him as I also wouldn't sleep with a transgendered woman despite her gender being female. With that said, she should definitely be allowed to participate in the pageant and the biggest reason is that she earned her spot because I'm sure there was a few pre-Miss Universe pageants she had to do really well in to make the cut and she did, end of story. On that basis alone she shouldn't have been kicked off.
Maybe I'm just speaking for myself then.
I support as well, but after trying to become more aware of things... I think my views on what I'm supporting have changed.
You did well to speak up and I appreciate you backing me on that subject. Opinions can sadly be hazardous to one's posting future, especially in threads like these.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
It's hard to just throw away something you've worked hard for like that. If an NBA team demoted a player to the D-league (which means minor league) the player would most likely do his best to get back to the NBA. There can't be many pageants bigger than Miss Universe so it's not a "who needs em!" type of thing. Probably devastating for her.
Are you saying that GAF should tolerate every position? To use the obvious example, should GAF, because it is a pretty open forum tolerate blatant racism? It seems to me that the moderators of any forum have a difficult job to do. Whatever way they enforce some rules you could see it as the mods picking sides and it could seem arbitrary to someone who disagrees with a particular ban.
I know for example that some posters are uncomfortable with the perceived moderation regarding anti-gay posts, just as some posters are uncomfortable with the perceived lack of moderation on anti-religious posters. I'm not going to claim to speak for the mods but it seems that the rules have been relatively consistent for a long while now on these issues.
Frankly, considering the way many forums treat gay posters and trans posters I think it's great that GAF acts like a bit of an oasis where people that get a disproportionate amount of hate directed at them can post in relative peace.
Religion is always going to be another thorny topic on the internet but I think there is a difference between critiquing a person's faith, and critiquing an individual per se because they believe something that is not supported by empirical data. That is, for example, directing a slur like "kike" or "raghead" against a person of faith would (I assume at least, I don't think we've seen a poster that ignorant come along in a LONG time) would of course be bannable, but just like some posters have said "I disagree with homosexuality for religious reasons" and NOT been banned some posters have extensively talked about why they reject religiosity.
Phew, I don't know. I'm surprised we have any at all really.
Well, There's a few. More than you would expect, certainly more than I expected.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I don't think this is true or maybe it's on a case-to-case basis because I asked that question in another thread a couple months ago and I believe Opiate said they would be banned instantly. Maybe it was the wording I used in my question... it was like "what if someone said they believe homosexuality is a sin due to their religion" and so on.
I don't think you're correct, I've SEEN posters walk away after saying that. mclaren comes to mind as a prime example. My understanding of the moderation (and again, I'm not claiming to speak for them at all) is that it requires a bit more, some additional comment such as quoting Paul Cameron's fake statistics about gays life expectancy, or making an AIDS joke for example. Referring to "the gay lifestyle" is probably a good way to make the mods look askance at you too but that is a guess on my part.
Ofcourse GAF should not be tolerant to all beliefs, but when 90% of posts in a religious thread are of the caliber "Hur, you believe in Faerytales, derp" and most of those posts go unpunished, it's degrading to the beliefs of a group of people who really don't deserve it. In the same way that it's disrespectful to call a transgendered woman a he.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Very convincing, except for the feet.
That must be the hardest thing to "convert".
You can do something about the hands...but the feet....not likely.
That must be the hardest thing to "convert".
You can do something about the hands...but the feet....not likely.
I don't think it's quite the same thing, although personally I wouldn't have a huge issue with GAF tightening up it's moderation of anti-religious rhetoric a bit. I think there is an obvious difference between saying "I think such and such belief is wrong/stupid/irrational/etc etc etc etc etc" and saying "I think you are not the gender you identify as" That is, calling out a BELIEF is different than calling out a person for direct insults.
My suggestion though would be if you have a specific incident that you think crosses a line PM a mod to talk to them about it, they're a pretty responsive bunch usually.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Well that's what the mod said. I remember it pretty clearly. I'll try to find the exchange
sixteen-bit
Member
That's a shame they DQed her
Barack Lesnar
Banned
here it is, elite google fu http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=34640238&postcount=357
Looks like my examples to Opiate were a little more extreme than what we were talking about, and he probably took it as a person saying all of those things instead of just one.
Looks like my examples to Opiate were a little more extreme than what we were talking about, and he probably took it as a person saying all of those things instead of just one.
FrontalMonk
Banned
most likely. If someone on NeoGAF posted here saying all those things and wasn't banned...I think I would have a problem with that, honestly.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
yeah i agree, i worded the question poorly by implying that it was a single person saying all that stuff
Probably. You could always ask him for clarification.
That Squid Lord is the only true god.
She was so close to fooling you, too! Darn!
mescalineeyes
Banned
This is what I was trying to say earlier.
Pissing on what a person stands for on a physical level is the axact same thing as pissing on what a person stands for on a theological level.
In essence you are calling those people wrong for what they believe to be true.
I'm sure there are people that think a man stays a man, regardless of any sex-change they underwent. That would be a bannable offense here.
There are people that refute religion for whatever reason they have, and for the most part are pretty degrading in conveying that message. That would go unpunished on most accounts.
Anyway, you're stepping on someone's/ a groups feelings in doing so. The end result is the same.
But I'm done making my point, let's get back to the thread at hand.
wonderkins
Member
Reading the thread title, I think maybe I'm confused.
What relevance does the oh-so-familiar persecution complex of true believers have to do with a woman being disqualified from a beauty pageant?
What relevance does the oh-so-familiar persecution complex of true believers have to do with a woman being disqualified from a beauty pageant?
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Maybe I'm just a simpleton, but that lady is a hottie. She could have been born a man, a space alien, or a bicycle. Who gives a fuck? She's a lady now, and she's a damn good looking one.
The whole thing sounds like an excuse to further bigoted stereotypes.
The whole thing sounds like an excuse to further bigoted stereotypes.
I don't think that is why people are banned. People are banned for not respecting an individual's self identification. That is, someone can believe all they want that gender is the same as sex and that therefore trans people are basically just playing dress up if they want, no mod or anyone else can stop them.
However, all the mods are asking is the same thing they ask of people who are privately racist, or privately homophobic, etc. To show respect to the people you're talking to and about. Just as it would be instantly bannable to refer to a black person as the n word it is equally problematic to refer to someone as other than their identified gender. Just as it would be wrong to call a gay man a "sissy" for example, or to refer to a female poster as a "bitch." It seems all the mods are saying with bans for these reasons is that people deserve dignity and respect, even if not all ideas do.
What is the official reason for her DQ?
Look out boys, we got a bicyclesexual here.
Im sorry, but I already explained why considering trans people as their birth sex is an insulting thing to do. I realize that most people do not encounter these sorts of issues in real life, but that shouldnt be an excuse: this thread has already explained why calling trans people by the birth sex is wrong. If those people had actually read the thread they would have understood that it was hurtful and that they shouldnt do it. Its not even like they had to go to some esoteric website to figure this out. They just had to read the thread that they were posting in.
Give me a break. That poster put she in quotation marks, and then said this dude two sentences later. All the articles posted in this thread refer to Jenna Talackova using female pronouns. All the unbanned posters in this thread are using female pronouns. It has been explained why you shouldnt use birth sex pronouns. What is there to misunderstand?
I strongly disagree with this. Cosmetic surgery is fine if it is used to correct, let's say a mastectomy. Transexuals shouldn't be DQ'ed either.
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