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[RoadHazard]

Unfortunately their game looks a generation behind (and even pretty bad for a PS4/XB1 open world game). But I'm pretty damn excited to play it.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[NonPhixion]

One thing most of you guys seems dont understand, FROM has to build the game from ground up, building everything from the combat to level design and how each enemy/boss behave.

Imagine thinking FROM doesn't reuse code/assets/audio from their old games in their new titles. "building everything from the ground up" hahha

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

Good, maybe this sill give them the little kick in thr ass they so desperately need in order to have some half decent graphics.

 

[RoadHazard]

One thing most of you guys seems dont understand, FROM has to build the game from ground up, building everything from the combat to level design and how each enemy/boss behave.

Bluepoints in other hand design for shit, they just make graphics and they just put all resources for graphics because they dont have to worry about designing the actual game.

Then again majority ofGAF are graphic whores, graphics has bigger value over everything else here.

If you had looked up some info about what BP did with the remake, you'd know they did a lot more than "just graphics". But yes, of course designing a new game from the ground up is more work (although From does seem to be reusing quite a lot of stuff from the Souls games).

 

[PlaystationFan5349]

Yes it is. Ultimately it's down to the developers, as it's their product... however the default way that UE asynchronously compiles shaders causes these issues and the result is what it is... Developers which use that engine often leave it as is and don't optimize it, and you're left with a shitty experience. Which is exactly why I don't want developers to use it.

If Epic isn't going to do anything to improve the situation for developers who can't take the time or don't have the budget to fix their engine.. that's an issue with the engine. If developers need to rework the engine to fix it... that's an issue with the engine.

Would I be happy if they did that? Absolutely.. but the fact remains that they usually don't. So it is what it is.

It seems to be issue with both. But you're contradicting yourself, you say the developers won't work in the engine to optimize it to their needs, what makes you think they are gonna build their own engine then?

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

Imagine thinking FROM doesn't reuse code/assets/audio from their old games in their new titles. "building everything from the group up" hahha

I'd argue Elden Ring is one of the most egregious examples of reused assets, they've pulled tons of assets and animations from older Dark Souls titles.

 

[Melfice7]

Devs should take note of this.

Focusing on "realistic graphics" is a waste of money and effort! and should not have priority over other gameplay elements.

Give me a game with excellent gameplay, great art direction, innovative ideas and....acceptable graphics.

That is what I like about From's games

Demons remake doesnt have realistic graphics, but it does have high quality assets. It never has to be one or the other, especially nowadays. FromSoft is just bad at graphics/performance

 

[Makoto-Yuki]

i don't play those games for the graphics. demons souls looks good but it's still a 13 year old game. Elden Ring might not look as impressive but it's a 2022 game. that said, i still think Elden Ring looks great but yeah it would be better if it was built for PC and PS5/XSX only instead of PS4/XB1.

 

[remember_spinal]

Imagine thinking FROM doesn't reuse code/assets/audio from their old games in their new titles. "building everything from the ground up" hahha

What do you mean?

 

[RoadHazard]

What do you mean?

TBH, this stuff doesn't bother me. If they need an animation for some action and they they already have one that looks good, why redo it? Of course, reusing entire boss battles (or boss behavior) is a different matter (I don't know if they actually do that though).

But yeah, it's far from "built from the ground up".

 

[Hayabusabruh]

For those that played the beta, how does it compare graphically to Sekiro? From footage I've seen, it kinda looks trash.

 

[Fbh]

I'd rather get new games with less impressive graphics than amazing looking remakes of 10+ years old games.

And I'd rather have FROM working with limited budgets which allow them to continue releasing awesome challenging games at a steady pace instead of going for hyper inflated AAA production values which force them to release toned down and safer games once every 5 years.

One thing most of you guys seems dont understand, FROM has to build the game from ground up, building everything from the combat to level design and how each enemy/boss behave.

Bluepoints in other hand design for shit, they just make graphics and they just put all resources for graphics because they dont have to worry about designing the actual game.

Then again majority of GAF are graphic whores, graphics has bigger value over everything else here.

We also don't know the budgets.
For all we know Bluepoint might have had a similar budget for remaking a smaller, more linear 13 years old game than FROM has to make a whole new and more content packed game.

The same people on GAF that whine about all AAA games being the same and too safe want FROM/Bandai to put so much money into their games that they need to sell 8+ million units to even break even.

 

[Danjin44]

TBH, this stuff doesn't bother me. If they need an animation for some action and they they already have one that looks good, why redo it? Of course, reusing entire boss battles (or boss behavior) is a different matter (I don't know if they actually do that though).

But yeah, it's far from "built from the ground up".

Majority of devs do this, just look at game like Monster Hunter, it not cheap it practical. What I meant when I said from "ground up" is actual designing the game, balancing and actual combat itself.

Again Bluepoint doesn't design combat or level deign, they just update the graphics, it far more easier to just focus on the graphics than designing the actual game.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

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[LordOfChaos]

Yeah you sort of figure

It makes sense because one was a remaster that didn't have to build a new game, but focus on making it look pretty, but it was always funny to me that an earlier released remaster was going to look better than a later new game release.

I think Elden Ring looks fine enough to good in several areas btw. It makes sense that DSR would make them feel the need to push a bit further though.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

Good, Demons Souls remake is stunning

 

[mortal]

One thing most of you guys seems dont understand, FROM has to build the game from ground up, building everything from the combat to level design and how each enemy/boss behave.

Well that's not entirely true, we're being honest.

 

[Self_Destructive]

It seems to be issue with both. But you're contradicting yourself, you say the developers won't work in the engine to optimize it to their needs, what makes you think they are gonna build their own engine then?

I never said anything about them building their own engine...

I said the trap most developers fall into when using an engine like UE4, is it provides an easier way to develop across multiple platforms, however usually at the expense of optimizing for said platforms specifically... and that is usually the issue when it comes to PC.

Developers like The Coalition, Sony Bend, and some other high profile UE developers DO take the time to tailor and customize the engine to suit their needs. That's a tiny, miniscule sliver of the overall amount of developers and games which utilize the engine though. And as I said, AA developers and Indie developers with lower budgets try to maximize ease of development, but don't have the money/expertise/time to fix those issues and tailor the engine to suit their needs better.

DoubleFine actually did do exactly that. Their game Psychonauts 2 DID have all these exact same issues at launch, but they listened to the feedback and set out to fix the issues.. so kudos to them. I really appreciate that they did that.

However, most developers might not be able to do that. And we don't want to accept developers releasing games with well known and documented issues in a shitty state at launch, just to be fixed later. We need these issues to be addressed before the game ever launches in the first place.

Perhaps FROMSOFT would have no trouble, but I have the opinion I do, because most developers do... and most are fine with these issues plaguing their games because PC gamers are all too quick to blame each other and their hardware or other software as the reason for their issues..

I feel it's going to get to the point where this issue (the shader compilation hitching and asset loading stutters) will become so prevalent, that they'll no longer be able to ignore it. You'll have MUCH cheaper consoles, providing a smoother overall experience, while PCs with hardware more powerful, and more expensive than ever... are constantly having these issues.

People will eventually get fed up.

 

[YukiOnna]

They shouldn't. It's unnecessary pressure and doesn't equate to a good game. Just focus on good art direction and a good game like FROM has before.

I'm glad he indicated good graphics is not a priority.

 

[009EspadaSageJay]

Bluepoint at the end of the day is if you give a team of modder a huge budget and tell them to go wild and re texture everything FROM has to actually build the game, test it, Make sure the game even run or any hardware quirks that cause the games to have insane problems "COUGH COUGH PS3 cell" They do 90-95% of the work.

 

[Negotiator101]

A clear runner for GOTY who cares what it looks like?

 

[RoadHazard]

Majority of devs do this, just look at game like Monster Hunter, it not cheap it practical. What I meant when I said from "ground up" is actual designing the game, balancing and actual combat itself.

Again Bluepoint doesn't design combat or level deign, they just update the graphics, it far more easier to just focus on the graphics than designing the actual game.

Again, BP did not "just upgrade the graphics". That's a gross simplification of the work they did on this remake. It's NOT like the Master Chief Collection, for example, where the new graphics are just a "layer" on top and everything else is the same.

You both missed Danjin44 point entirely.

From Software created all the assets, story, characters, textures, animations, game mechanics, level design, enemy design, item/weapon design, lore, art style, and other elements ALL BY THEMSELVES.

That is, Bluepoint may have created the 3D models, textures, animations all that TECHNICAL stuff by themselves, but everything else was already done.

And we all know that creating a TECHNICAL good looking game is much less complicated than creating a game with great ART DIRECTION and good GAME DESIGN.

That's why ironically the most fun games are those that focus less on graphics and more on player interaction.

Also, keep in mind that Elden Ring is a previous gen game, along with Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne and Sekiro. So nothing wrong in reusing assets for games that belong to the same generation. All companies do that, except those that release one new game per gen.

If creating a technically good looking game is easier, why has From never managed it? I love their art design, but they do not make technically impressive games.

 

[Alexios]

Again, BP did not "just upgrade the graphics". That's a gross simplification of the work they did on this remake. It's NOT like the Master Chief Collection, for example, where the new graphics are just a "layer" on top and everything else is the same.

If you watch the Digital Foundry interview on the remake it's said (by Bluepoint) that the original code and the old and new engines are essentially running in tandem and that's how they're able to pull it off this faithful just as they did with SOTC before.

And once again, Demon's Souls is hardly an example of what From can do at its best, it was a game in dev hell switching directions to the end by Miyazaki being the new lead of what was considered a likely doomed project, etc., and the rest is history.

That's not at all what I've understood

Not my fault.

 

[RoadHazard]

If you watch the Digital Foundry video on the remake it's said (by the devs) that the original code has barely been touched and the old and new engines are running in tandem.

That's not at all what I've understood from the proper making-of stuff I've seen. They started out with the original codebase to get it up and running and worked from there, but then they tweaked and replaced A LOT of stuff, not just models and textures. It's not the same old PS3 code running on PS5 (that wouldn't even have been possible). But of course enemy AI and such was left mostly untouched in terms of functionality (but ported over to something that would work on PS5).

 

[iHaunter]

PS4 game.

But their art seems to be good at least.

 

[Danjin44]

If creating a technically good looking game is easier, why has From never managed it?

Because FROM also design the actual game itself, should they waste time make expensive graphics for graphic whores or use the resources where it matters the most.

I personally didn't liked visuals Demons Souls remake compare FROM's art direction, so I personally like how FROM do go about making its graphics.

 

[Spitfire098]

Miyazaki: Hey, you know what blue point did with graphics was actually pretty impressive.

Neogaf:

 

[Yoboman]

Because FROM also design the actual game itself, should they waste time make expensive graphics for graphic whores or use the resources where it matters the most.

I personally didn't liked visuals Demons Souls remake compare FROM's art direction, so I personally like how FROM do go about making its graphics.

They have always had good graphics. Maybe not the absolute top 1% but always good. They wouldn't often end up with frame rate issues if they weren't trying to do that

Stop acting like From falling short of the graphics of Bluepoint is some conscious choice

 

[Danjin44]

They have always had good graphics. Maybe not the absolute top 1% but always good. They wouldn't often end up with frame rate issues if they weren't trying to do that

Stop acting like From falling short of the graphics of Bluepoint is some conscious choice

I personally always fan of FROM game's visuals, to me they are like Atlus, their art direction make game visuals look good more than high tech graphics and personally more than fine with that.

Demons Souls Remake might have better tech when it comes to graphics but I was not fan of its redesign enemies/boss and overall atmosphere, but that just me.

 

[Yoboman]

I personally always fan of FROM game's visuals, to me they are like Atlus, their art direction make game visuals look good more than high tech graphics and personally more than fine with that.

Demons Souls Remake might have better tech when it comes to graphics but I was not fan of its redesign enemies/boss and overall atmosphere, but that just me.

Nah, Bloodborne was very good technically when it released. Sekiro as well. Elden Ring falls abit short probably because they are doing late cross gen with their first open world

Art is subjective. I think for every one thing that the art style wasn't as good at, they did ten things that improved it.

 

[SlimySnake]

Shouldnt have started full production on a last gen game in 2019 after shipping sekiro then. everyone blames greedy suits like Jimbo, EA CEO and Bobby Kotick, but I am beginning to see that its devs like Myazaki, Kaz Yamouchi and Cory Barlog who just dont give a shit.

 

[Skifi28]

Being cross-gen, it can't be helped. We'll see with their next games though I think it looks fine technically and great artistically. Only thing that worries me is the performance.

 

[SlimySnake]

Nah, Bloodborne was very good technically when it released. Sekiro as well. Elden Ring falls abit short probably because they are doing late cross gen with their first open world

Art is subjective. I think for every one thing that the art style wasn't as good at, they did ten things that improved it.

Bloodborne looked stunning probably because Sony's Japan Studios helped them out.

And they still managed to ruin the graphics in some levels. This incredible looking level was changed from night time to day time in the final build completely ruining the look of the level.

To this:

From just doesnt get graphics. Dont forget, Dark Souls 2 had the biggest downgrade ever before Watch Dogs and Witcher 3 came along.

here is the gaf thread on this:

Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

NOTE:Comparison videos below show the changes from PS3 version to PS3 version! Figured this was newish news, and people outside the OT deserved to know about it. People playing Dark Souls 2 early have shown that in the current build there are some significant lighting changes which greatly...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Whitecrow]

Devs should take note of this.

Focusing on "realistic graphics" is a waste of money and effort! and should not have priority over other gameplay elements.

Give me a game with excellent gameplay, great art direction, innovative ideas and....acceptable graphics.

That is what I like about From's games

And why should designers and artists give up on their vision??

 

[rofif]

I always liked how much detail there is in their games. In Bloodborne or Dark souls 3 all the detailed statues everywhere or how even a simple set of stairs is very elaborate with different bricks and wear.
Bloodborne at 4k would look even better than Dark Souls 3 I suppose.
I am wondering how Elden Ring will run on pc. It barely ran 4k50 on ps5 in quality mode

SlimySnake Bloodborne is just changed art style from beta. That beta is out there and I've watched streams. There are moon shadows and stuff but generally it just looks different artistically.
DS2 downgrade was real though. The game still looks good in some areas

 

[DeepEnigma]

Miyazaki: Hey, you know what blue point did with graphics was actually pretty impressive.

Neogaf:

/thread

 

[TLZ]

That's why competition is good. They keep raising the bar.

 

[FrankWza]

For those that played the beta, how does it compare graphically to Sekiro? From footage I've seen, it kinda looks trash.

I would say it's pretty similar overall. You'll probably have moments that are equal or maybe a little better but definitely some that are worse given the open world and that Sekiro had one type of character. The PS3 comments on its graphics are a joke. I'm playing DSR right now and it's not even close.

 

[BlackM1st]

Same people that will get mad about this statement and try and downplay demons (because its exclusive to ps5) and say they dont care about graphics will be the same ones concern trolling horizon and god of war in other threads about them being cross gen

How insecure you're about your precious plastic box and its xgen releases. You don't believe in generations, bro?

Bluepoints in other hand design for shit, they just make graphics and they just put all resources for graphics because they dont have to worry about designing the actual game.

1 platform release also helps "a little" lol

Maybe From can borrow Bluepoints game engine or at least use UE5

Theirs are severely outdated

They should drop PS4 support for starters. Unfortunately Japanese companies as a whole severely lacking when it comes to graphics. Square is a rare exception. Most of the Japanese industry barely moved beyond the PS2/PS3 era.

This is his interview, and he said what he said. This isn't even a negative, so…

What's the issue?

Even he himself isn't being so defensive

Nothing bad can be said about From games. Ever. Even by its director.

and....acceptable graphics

Acceptable? By whom? Why game can't strive for all around greatness?

Focusing on "realistic graphics" is a waste of money and effort!

Not even close.

Otherwise we all would still play on PS1 probably. No wait. NES. NES is good enough.

Why "waste" resources on more? Graphics isn't everything ofc, but saying that devs are "wasting" their time on it is not right.

Besides, engines like UE5 let devs to save time and energy and still have a great results without being stuck in PS3 generation.

They should team up with bluepoint for bloodborne 2 like they did with Japan studio and bloodborne 1.

This.

Supporting the last gen it was a impossible fix.

This too.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

One thing most of you guys seems dont understand, FROM has to build the game from ground up, building everything from the combat to level design and how each enemy/boss behave.

Bluepoints in other hand design for shit, they just make graphics and they just put all resources for graphics because they dont have to worry about designing the actual game.

Then again majority of GAF are graphic whores, graphics has bigger value over everything else here.

This reads like a PR statement.
Every developer reuses assets, animations etc... from their past work. No one starts from scratch like that unless it's a new studio.

 

[tommib]

Bloodborne looked stunning probably because Sony's Japan Studios helped them out.

And they still managed to ruin the graphics in some levels. This incredible looking level was changed from night time to day time in the final build completely ruining the look of the level.

To this:

From just doesnt get graphics. Dont forget, Dark Souls 2 had the biggest downgrade ever before Watch Dogs and Witcher 3 came along.

here is the gaf thread on this:

Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

NOTE:Comparison videos below show the changes from PS3 version to PS3 version! Figured this was newish news, and people outside the OT deserved to know about it. People playing Dark Souls 2 early have shown that in the current build there are some significant lighting changes which greatly...

www.neogaf.com

Bloodborne if anything got an immense upgrade from the initial gameplay trailer. Like generations apart.



Dark Souls 2? Sure. But a lot of it is related to them realising that the constant pitch-black darkness was making the game ultra-hard and punishing. The colour and gamma between versions is totally different. They fucked up. Still my favourite Dark Souls. Praise Team B!

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

If only Bluepoint could be in charge of Graphics Department at From Software...
Elden Rings looks so flat & blend once you saw awesomeness of Demon's Souls.
Hopefully the art looks tasty.

 

[SlimySnake]

Bloodborne if anything got an immense upgrade from the initial gameplay trailer. Like generations apart.



Dark Souls 2? Sure. But a lot of it is related to them realising that the constant pitch-black darkness was making the game ultra-hard and punishing. The colour and gamma between versions is totally different. They fucked up. Still my favourite Dark Souls. Praise Team B!

Thats the leaked trailer that was for internal use only. It was unfinished.

This is the actual reveal trailer.



The gif i posted above is from the beta or one of the show floor demos. They changed the lighting conditions and made it worse. You can easily tell from the gifs which version looks better.

 

[BlackM1st]

This reads like a PR statement.

He just stated some simple facts.

Every developer reuses assets, animations etc... from their past work. No one starts from scratch like that unless it's a new studio.

No shit. I bet ER reused a lot too.

But... But did you really can compare the amount of resources required to launch a linear game remake on 1 platform and creating a whole new open world game and launch it on 5 platforms?

 

[tommib]

Thats the leaked trailer that was for internal use only. It was unfinished.

This is the actual reveal trailer.



The gif i posted above is from the beta or one of the show floor demos. They changed the lighting conditions and made it worse. You can easily tell from the gifs which version looks better.

It was leaked and eventually released as official and as Project Beast. What does it matter anyway? Game was upgraded to infinite levels with Japan Studios collaboration.

I only see a different artistic approach on the gif you're showing. Hard constrast and shiny floor textures. I don't know. I think these guys are awesome.

 

[SlimySnake]

It was leaked and eventually released as official and as Project Beast. What does it matter anyway? Game was upgraded to infinite levels with Japan Studios collaboration.

I only see a different artistic approach on the gif you're showing. Hard constrast and shiny floor textures. I don't know. I think these guys are awesome.

Yeah, I am saying their artistic approach was wrong. The original gif looks better to me.

This is what i initially said.

And they still managed to ruin the graphics in some levels. This incredible looking level was changed from night time to day time in the final build completely ruining the look of the level.

 

[tommib]

Yeah, I am saying their artistic approach was wrong. The original gif looks better to me.

This is what i initially said.

Sure but different art direction doesn't mean "ruining the graphics".

 

[splattered]

Good, they should be pushed. Their art style is amazing but the graphics engine prowess is always lacking.