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MLB '12-'13 OffSeason OT: Magic is the New Market Inefficiency

M

McNei1y

Member
ph33nix said:
you will never hear from me again if this happens


......therefore it was nice knowing you
Click to expand...

There was a tweet from Jim Bowden yesterday stating that the Marlins ARE NOT trading Stanton when a GM inquired about him. However, it was a tweet from Jim Bowden so it may be complete bs.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
in a weird, heartless way I kind of like what the Marlins are doing. The team had huge expectations and sucked, so why not fire the manager and get rid of everyone? Fans barely went out to games when they had Reyes/Ozzie/Hanley/Buerle so why keep them around? If you underperform and aren't any good, what's the point of keeping that team around? If you are going to finish 3rd or 4th in your division and have shitty attendance, why not do it with a $40 million payroll instead of a $100 million payroll?
 
M

McNei1y

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
in a weird, heartless way I kind of like what the Marlins are doing. The team had huge expectations and sucked, so why not fire the manager and get rid of everyone? Fans barely went out to games when they had Reyes/Ozzie/Hanley/Buerle so why keep them around? If you underperform and aren't any good, what's the point of keeping that team around? If you are going to finish 3rd or 4th in your division and have shitty attendance, why not do it with a $40 million payroll instead of a $100 million payroll?
Click to expand...

From the owners point of view, this makes sense. They'd rather save the money.

From everyone else, it doesn't. It seems greedy and it looks like the owners are rolling over and dying. Not something you want to see happen from a newly relocated franchise who just opened up a new ballpark and had a 100m+ payroll last year. It will also hurt them in the long run. Attendance will definitely be crap and future free agents won't give the Marlins the time of day.
 
D

Dmncnby2k9

Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
in a weird, heartless way I kind of like what the Marlins are doing. The team had huge expectations and sucked, so why not fire the manager and get rid of everyone? Fans barely went out to games when they had Reyes/Ozzie/Hanley/Buerle so why keep them around? If you underperform and aren't any good, what's the point of keeping that team around? If you are going to finish 3rd or 4th in your division and have shitty attendance, why not do it with a $40 million payroll instead of a $100 million payroll?
Click to expand...

they gave up so quick though.
 
J

Jon

Member
McNei1y said:
From the owners point of view, this makes sense. They'd rather save the money.

From everyone else, it doesn't. It seems greedy and it looks like the owners are rolling over and dying. Not something you want to see happen from a newly relocated franchise who just opened up a new ballpark and had a 100m+ payroll last year. It will also hurt them in the long run. Attendance will definitely be crap and future free agents won't give the Marlins the time of day.
Click to expand...

This x 1000. How can you expect to lure any talent to your team? Not every team can be as fortunate as the Rays and homegrow a contender, with extremely friendly contracts.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
Only feel sorry for the taxpayers that are putting money into Loria's pockets only to be treated like utter shit. No one will want to go (not that they did anyway), even if they manage to put a compelling product out there, because who wants to support a scumbag owner like that? Fuck him.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Brinbe said:
Only feel sorry for the taxpayers that are putting money into Loria's pockets only to be treated like utter shit. No one will want to go (not that they did anyway), even if they manage to put a compelling product out there, because who wants to support a scumbag owner like that? Fuck him.
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The taxpayers and politicians only have themselves to blame. The Marlins have been run like shit for years and couldn't fill a high school auditorium. No idea why they thought a new stadium would remedy that. The city should have realized there is no place for pro baseball in Miami and run that team out of town.
 
Link

Link

The Autumn Wind
HardballTalk has a great article about what a shitbag Loria is. If you think you know how bad he is, you don't.

ph33nix said:
the team president david samson will be on with lebatard today i think at 5 et

the fans calling in will be fun. and you know Dan is going to make this uncomfortable
Click to expand...
Eh, Dan always softballs it with Samson. It's disappointing, because he's usually not afraid to ask tough questions. He probably knows Samson will just lie straight-faced like he always does.
 
R

RobotHaus

Unconfirmed Member
nemss said:
So odds on average attendance this year for Miami? My guess is 4K.
Click to expand...

Just like at Dolphin Stadium!

But I'm happy with all this trading, makes the off season exciting again. Though, being in Florida it will be a bit harder to watch Marlins games when they're on with such a despicable lineup, at least the commentators are top notch.
 
M

McNei1y

Member
I'd be pissed if I were Jose Reyes too. I was just signed to play for what looked like a competitive team. I would also be guaranteed to live in a party city where the weather is amazing year round.

Now I've just been shipped to a team out of the country and the weather is low. I may not have wanted to go here at all. At least the team looks better than the Marlins.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
McNei1y said:
I'd be pissed if I were Jose Reyes too. I was just signed to play for what looked like a competitive team. I would also be guaranteed to live in a party city where the weather is amazing year round.

Now I've just been shipped to a team out of the country and the weather is low. I may not have wanted to go here at all. At least the team looks better than the Marlins.
Click to expand...
lolwut? The spring/summers in Toronto are fantastic. He skips all the bad and cold parts. Not any different from what he encountered in New York.
 
M

McNei1y

Member
Brinbe said:
lolwut? The spring/summers in Toronto are fantastic. He skips all the bad and cold parts. Not any different from what he encountered in New York.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying the weather up there is terrible. I'm just saying it's nothing like Miami weather. Nothing is... except for Cali I guess. I guess he avoids Hurricanes though.
 
D

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
McNei1y said:
I'd be pissed if I were Jose Reyes too. I was just signed to play for what looked like a competitive team. I would also be guaranteed to live in a party city where the weather is amazing year round.

Now I've just been shipped to a team out of the country and the weather is low. I may not have wanted to go here at all. At least the team looks better than the Marlins.
Click to expand...

I'd imagine the thing hes pissed off about the most is the -massive- tax difference between Florida and Canada.
 
B

Brinbe

Member
McNei1y said:
I'm not saying the weather up there is terrible. I'm just saying it's nothing like Miami weather. Nothing is... except for Cali I guess. I guess he avoids Hurricanes though.
Click to expand...
True, but I'm sure winning will hopefully ease that loss. And he's got some Dominican bros in EE/Jose that'll help him adjust.
 
M

McNei1y

Member
Brinbe said:
True, but I'm sure winning will hopefully ease that loss. And he's got some Dominican bros in EE/Jose that'll help him adjust.
Click to expand...

I just remember watching "The Franchise" and seeing Jose Reyes stand on the balcony of his apartment overlooking Miami in March and it looked beautiful. Anyways, that's just me lol.

The winning, the better ownership, the better fanbase, and a bunch of other things will most definitely help him adjust.
 
M

McNei1y

Member
This is Loria after this season.

acco2q.gif
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
keith law said:
The Blue Jays-Marlins trade, pending physicals, is a five-for-seven swap that sees the Jays getting Josh Johnson, Mark Buehrle, Jose Reyes, Emilio Bonifacio, and John Buck in exchange for prospects Jake Marisnick, Justin Nicolino, and Anthony Desclafani and big leaguers Henderson Alvarez, Jeff Mathis, Yunel Escobar, and Adeiny Hechavarria. It's a huge deal in numbers and in its potential to impact the standings of two divisions in 2013, with the Jays poised to be the most relevant they've been in 20 years while the Marlins live down to the reputation the franchise acquired in 1997-98 and has deserved ever since.

The Blue Jays get a lot of impact talent in this deal, making them contenders (at least for the moment) in 2013 without substantially damaging their chances to contend in future years. Johnson is an ace when healthy, which he seldom is; he finished the year looking strong, back to 93-97 with a plus curveball and above-average slider again, and if he looks like that all year he could be worth 5 wins above replacement to a Jays team that hasn't had that guy since they traded Roy Halladay.

Johnson tops the rotation ahead of Brandon Morrow, behind whom they'll slot Buehrle, a reliable innings-eater who reached 200 innings for the 12th straight season, but whose below-average fastball isn't an ideal fit for Toronto's homer-friendly home park. Even if he dips to just below league-average, the Jays desperately need the innings he'll provide, given the elbow plague that infected their rotation in 2012. If Johnson is healthy and Ricky Romero gets back to his old form, this will be one of the league's best rotations in 2013, although the probability of both of those things happening in one calendar year is not that high.

Reyes becomes the Jays' everyday shortstop, the best one they've had since Tony Fernandez left after the 1999 season. His 2011 walk year was built on a batting average he wasn't likely to see again, but the remainder of his skill set -- average defense at short, above-average running, good plate coverage, modest pop -- remains intact, and at shortstop that's going to be worth 4-to-6 wins over replacement, and a quick upgrade of about 3 over what the Jays got out of shortstop this past season.

They'll also get value from having Bonifacio as a supersub, a plus runner who can play six spots on the diamond, five of them well enough to handle on a part-time basis. Buck is a $6 million backup catcher, adding to Toronto's pile of catching while the Marlins get to dump a contract that was dumb the day that Marlins gave it to him and looks just as bad now. He might be headed on to a third team, or could make it easier for the Jays to deal J.P. Arencibia and make room for catcher-of-the-future Travis d'Arnaud.

The lone negative for Jays fans is that the team has acquired a substantial amount of money, with Buehrle and Reyes both under contract beyond this year and possibly limiting the team's ability to make further moves this offseason or next. Buehrle is the biggest risk of the three major names coming back to fail to produce up to the level of his salary, although he happens to give the club the healthy/durable starter they desperately needed and might have had to overpay to get in free agency.

I'd offer my condolences to the Marlins' fans if I could only find them. Of all the players Miami got in return, only two stand out as guys the Blue Jays might someday miss, outfielder Marisnick and left-hander Nicolino.

Marisnick was the highest-rated coming into the 2012 season and had a solid first-half in high Class A before struggling with his approach after a midseason promotion to Double-A. The tools are still there -- above-average runner, above-average arm, plenty of range for center, more raw power than in-game -- but that approach is becoming a greater concern as he gets older and it doesn't improve, especially when he's beatable both on breaking stuff and on hard stuff up or in. I also worry about the power not playing in games because he has virtually no load, so he doesn't get extended well enough before making contact, although that's something that could be tweaked. He's a strong prospect, but not as exciting as he looked 10 months ago.

Nicolino's stat line is a little misleading, as he's not a power pitcher but a finesse left-hander with an average fastball that touches 93 mph and a plus changeup. He can flat-out pitch, with poise and approach that belie his age, and an easy, repeatable delivery. He may not miss as many bats as he moves up the ladder and doesn't offer any projection, but lefties with feel and a good change can pitch towards the middle of a rotation for a long time.

Henderson Alvarez had a plus fastball and plus changeup when he was coming up in the Jays' system, but the fastball has backed off a little and he's been unable to keep his changeup down in the zone, while he's never developed an average breaking ball, all of which has dropped his outlook from potential No. 2 starter to probable reliever. The Marlins can and should give Alvarez another year or so in the rotation to see if any of those issues resolves with experience or a new coaching staff, but as it stands now he doesn't miss enough bats to be a major league starter.

Anthony DeSclafani is definitely a reliever, where he'll touch 95 but needs to get more consistent tilt on his slider; he's a strike-thrower who did get to refine his off-speed stuff somewhat this year as a starter in low-A.

Jeff Mathis has a career .256 OBP in more than1,500 plate appearances and is probably best not discussed any further.

Yunel Escobar is probably better known for his bad makeup than he is for his on-field skills and has now run himself out of two cities; he doesn't walk or hit for power and his only offensive production in Toronto came at home in the first half of 2011, but he makes enough contact and adds value with his glove to make him a 2-win player.

Adeiny Hechavarria is a 70 defender at shortstop (on the 20-80 scouting scale) both in glove and arm, and is never going to hit -- but replacement level at short right now is low enough that he could be a 2-win player, although one of these two guys has to move off short. Both were born in Cuba and may, in theory, appeal to Cuban-American Marlins fans who aren't thoroughly disgusted by the way the team's ownership is running the franchise back into the subterranean hole out of which they originally crawled.

Those limicolous owners are the greatest joke of all in this deal, rooking Florida taxpayers for a publicly-funded stadium, only to make one half-hearted attempt to fill it with a contending team, surrendering it after the season to return to their old business model, playing a skeleton-crew lineup while pocketing all of their revenue-sharing money. This isn't a bad baseball deal for Miami, but it's not a baseball deal at all -- it's a boondoggle, perpetrated by owners who have pulled one stunt like this after another, with the implicit approval of the Commissioner's Office. It's time for baseball to rid itself of Jeff Loria and David Samson by any means possible. Miami, the state of Florida, and the sport in general will be better off without them.
Click to expand...
.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
The more I think about it the more I think the Jays got a shitty deal they might soon regret. I like Reyes, but paying a speed guy (who is already injury prone) $20 million a year into his 30s has disaster written all over it.
 
C

cashman

Banned
Ninja Scooter said:
The more I think about it the more I think the Jays got a shitty deal they might soon regret. I like Reyes, but paying a speed guy (who is already injury prone) $20 million a year into his 30s has disaster written all over it.
Click to expand...

The jays have been 3rd or 4th place for forever, but now the Rays right now look like their only real competition for the AL east. If your AA, I think you've gotta go all in and take your shot this year since you can't count out the two big money teams for long.
 
J

jbug617

Banned
The Red Sox would had to trade Middlebrooks, Doubront, Bogaerts and more to get Reyes and Johnson from Miami.

Edit: Hunter deal is 2yr/26 million
 
BFIB

BFIB

Member
This is a crazy world we live in when the prospects of the Red Sox are shot down for the prospects of the Blue Jays.
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Ninja Scooter said:
The more I think about it the more I think the Jays got a shitty deal they might soon regret. I like Reyes, but paying a speed guy (who is already injury prone) $20 million a year into his 30s has disaster written all over it.
Click to expand...
Yep. With johnson's iffy health history and pending Free Agency along with the yrs and money owed to reyes and buehrle it could turn out to be a bad deal.
 
D

darkside31337

Tomodachi wa Mahou
Rafa=FedKilla said:
That day will be when I bring back the Expos.like much of gaf, I have taken a vow of celibacy and won't rest until I do. A's and Rays getting stadiums would be the first steps.
Click to expand...

I don't get how that gets a team back in Montreal.

Best case scenario is that the stadium situation just turns into total shit in Oakland and/or Tampa and ownership gets tired of it and decides to move the team. Montreal is a logical destination.
 
J

jbug617

Banned
nemss said:
This is a crazy world we live in when the prospects of the Red Sox are shot down for the prospects of the Blue Jays.
Click to expand...

Red Sox prospects weren't shot down, it's just the Bluejays deal was better. Red Sox only wanted Reyes and Johnson. Bluejays took on more salary and probably more prospects
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
nemss said:
This is a crazy world we live in when the prospects of the Red Sox are shot down for the prospects of the Blue Jays.
Click to expand...

I'm not even sure of the accuracy of the statement. Red Sox wouldn't have been giving up prospects, they are major league ready players. Blue Jays gave up cancer and nothing.
 
Y

yankeehater

Member
darkside31337 said:
I don't get how that gets a team back in Montreal.

Best case scenario is that the stadium situation just turns into total shit in Oakland and/or Tampa and ownership gets tired of it and decides to move the team. Montreal is a logical destination.
Click to expand...

Best case is something happens to Selig and a new commish comes in and decides to move a struggling team to Montreal since they supported the Epos so well before things fell apart at the end.
 
L

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
darkside31337 said:
Seems like a great signing to me. He was really productive last season and he brings all those intangibles that GMs love.
Click to expand...
Torii Hunter is the Ernie McCracken of the baseball world. Can't stand him.

The idea of giving him $13 million each for his age 38 and 39 seasons just seems stupid. He's obviously an improvement over Delmon and whatever other butchers they put out in the corners last year, and clearly money is no object so it's their perogative I suppose. I just look forward to him throwing everyone under the bus with a smile on his face when shit doesn't go well. The guy is a cancer.

I just hope I get to see more stuff like the video Cashman posted below. I was dying laughing when this happened.
 
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