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MLB 2014 Season |OT2| - Derek Jeter Appreciation Thread

A

Askani

Member
Detroit coming in to KC a half game (technically a whole game) up on the Royals. Going to be a nail biter. What a huge series.
 
C

chicagocubsfan

Member
Kris Bryant at Wrigley for the 1st of many awards
ct-kris-bryant-report-cubs-spt-0918-20140918
 
C

chicagocubsfan

Member
Sealion88 said:
They need pitching. Arrieta, hendricks and wada isnt enough
Click to expand...

Of course not. I don't believe Wada has a future as a starter for us. He would be an excellent long man.

In a few years I expect our rotation to be
#1- Lester/Shields/Scherzer/Price/Samardzija/Hamels/Zimmerman
#2- Arrieta
#3 2nd Tier Starter like Liriano/Kazmir/Kennedy/Luebke/Maeda
#4- CJ Edwards
#5 Kyle Hendricks

Seems like a good and realistic rotation depending on our available resources and if Edwards lives up to his potential. Plus we don't have to trade any hitters.(Unless we go after Hamels or another starter on the trade market). I also expect us to go HARD after Shohei Otani when he comes out of Japan since we couldn't get Darvish or Tanaka.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Some players with higher career WAR than Derek Jeter:

Albert Pujols (by a lot, over 25+ WAR)
Adrian Beltre (and he's still going)
Larry Walker
Jim Thome
Mike Mussina

Of those, the only unquestioned HOF player is Pujols, but Pujols isn't going to get nearly the fanfare that Jeter will. Many of the others won't just "not get the fanfare," but will likely not make the HoFame at all.
 
C

chicagocubsfan

Member
Never too soon to start thinking about 2016 FA http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/09/2016-mlb-free-agents.html

Great crop of pitching imo

Catchers

Alex Avila (29)
Chris Iannetta (33)
John Jaso (32)
George Kottaras (32)
Jose Molina (41)
Dioner Navarro (32)
Brayan Pena (34)
Matt Wieters (30)

First Basemen
Jeff Baker (35)
Kyle Blanks (29)
Chris Davis (30)
Edwin Encarnacion (33) – $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Garrett Jones (35)
Justin Morneau (35) – $9MM mutual option with a $750K buyout
Mike Napoli (34)
Sean Rodriguez (31)
Gaby Sanchez (32)

Second Basemen

Joaquin Arias (31)
Jeff Baker (35)
Gordon Beckham (29)
Kevin Frandsen (34)
Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Howie Kendrick (32)
Daniel Murphy (31)
Donnie Murphy (33)
Cliff Pennington (32)
Sean Rodriguez (31)
Adam Rosales (33)
Skip Schumaker (36) – $2.5MM club option with a $250K buyout
Marco Scutaro (40)
Chase Utley (37) – $15MM vesting option with a $2MM buyout

Third Basemen

Joaquin Arias (31)
Adrian Beltre (37) – $16MM vesting option
Willie Bloomquist (38)
Kevin Frandsen (34)
David Freese (33)
Jonathan Herrera (31)
Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Don Kelly (36)
Jeff Keppinger (36)
Kevin Kouzmanoff (34)
Casey McGehee (32)
Donnie Murphy (33)
Sean Rodriguez (31)
Adam Rosales (33)
Juan Uribe (37)

Shortstops

Joaquin Arias (31)
Willie Bloomquist (38)
Ian Desmond (30)
Alcides Escobar (29) – $5.25MM club option with a $500K buyout
Maicer Izturis (35) – $3MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Donnie Murphy (33)
Cliff Pennington (32)
Alexei Ramirez (34) – $10MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Sean Rodriguez (31)
Jimmy Rollins (37)
Adam Rosales (33)
Brendan Ryan (34) – $1MM player option

Left Fielders

Jeff Baker (35)
Roger Bernadina (32)
Willie Bloomquist (38)
Yoenis Cespedes (30)
Rajai Davis (35)
Alejandro De Aza (32)
David DeJesus (36) – $5MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Alex Gordon (32) – $12.5MM player option
Matt Joyce (31)
Don Kelly (36)
Nate McLouth (34) – $6.5MM club option with a $750K buyout
David Murphy (34) – $7MM club option with a $500K buyout
Gerardo Parra (29)
Steve Pearce (33)
Sean Rodriguez (31)
Ryan Sweeney (31) – $2.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Justin Upton (28)

Center Fielders

Roger Bernadina (32)
Rajai Davis (35)
Alejandro De Aza (32)
David DeJesus (36) – $5MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Dexter Fowler (30)
Tony Gwynn Jr. (33)
Austin Jackson (29)
Don Kelly (36)
Nate McLouth (34) – $6.5MM club option with a $750K buyout
Gerardo Parra (29)
Cody Ross (35) – $9.5MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Skip Schumaker (36) – $2.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Drew Stubbs (31)
Ryan Sweeney (31) – $2.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Shane Victorino (35)

Right Fielders

Jeff Baker (35)
Jose Bautista (35) – $14MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Marlon Byrd (38) – $8MM vesting option
David DeJesus (36) – $5MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Heyward (26)
Matt Joyce (31)
Nate McLouth (34) – $6.5MM club option with a $750K buyout
David Murphy (34) – $7MM club option with a $500K buyout
Gerardo Parra (29)
Carlos Quentin (33) – $10MM mutual option with a $3MM buyout
Ryan Raburn (35) – $3MM club option with a $100K buyout
Cody Ross (35) – $9.5MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Ryan Sweeney (31) – $2.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Justin Upton (28)
Will Venable (33)
Shane Victorino (35)

Designated Hitters

Edwin Encarnacion (33) – $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout
John Jaso (32)
David Ortiz (40) – $10MM club option
Carlos Quentin (33) – $10MM mutual option with a $3MM buyout

Starting Pitchers

Clay Buchholz (31) – $13MM club option with a $245K buyout
Mark Buehrle (37)
Trevor Cahill (28) – $13MM club option with a $300K buyout
Jhoulys Chacin (28)
Bartolo Colon (43)
Ross Detwiler (30)
R.A. Dickey (41) – $12MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Marco Estrada (32)
Doug Fister (32)
Jaime Garcia (29) – $11.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Jeremy Guthrie (37) – $10MM mutual option with a $3.2MM buyout
Tim Hudson (40)
Scott Kazmir (32)
Ian Kennedy (31)
Mat Latos (28)
Mike Leake (28)
Tim Lincecum (32)
Kyle Lohse (37)
Corey Luebke (31) – $7.5MM club option with a $1.75MM buyout
Kris Medlen (30)
Bud Norris (31)
Ross Ohlendorf (33)
Mike Pelfrey (32)
Rick Porcello (27)
David Price (30)
Ricky Romero (31) – $13.1MM club option with a $600K buyout
Jeff Samardzija (31)
Alfredo Simon (35)
Jordan Zimmermann (30)

Closers

Joaquin Benoit (38) – $8MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
Joe Nathan (41) – $10MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Jonathan Papelbon (35) – $13MM vesting option
Bobby Parnell (31)
Fernando Rodney (39)

Right-Handed Relievers

Scott Atchison (40) – $1MM club option with a $100K buyout
Grant Balfour (38)
Jonathan Broxton (32) – $9MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Santiago Casilla (35) – club/vesting option with a $1MM buyout
Tyler Clippard (31)
Neftali Feliz (28)
J.C. Gutierrez (32)
David Hernandez (31)
Tommy Hunter (29)
Shawn Kelley (32)
Brandon League (33) – $7.5MM vesting option
Edward Mujica (32)
Ross Ohlendorf (33)
Chad Qualls (37) – $3.25MM club option with a $250K buyout
Ryan Webb (30)
Brad Ziegler (36) – $5.5MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Left-Handed Relievers

Jeremy Affeldt (37)
Antonio Bastardo (30)
Jerry Blevins (32)
Randy Choate (40)
Ross Detwiler (30)
Brian Duensing (33)
J.P. Howell (33) – $6.25MM club option with a $250K buyout
Sean Marshall (33)
Eric O’Flaherty (31)
Manny Parra (33)
Oliver Perez (34)
James Russell (30)
Tony Sipp (32)
Matt Thornton (39)
Jonny Venters (31)
Wesley Wright (31
 
F

Fox318

Member
Opiate said:
Some players with higher career WAR than Derek Jeter:

Albert Pujols (by a lot, over 25+ WAR)
Adrian Beltre (and he's still going)
Larry Walker
Jim Thome
Mike Mussina

Of those, the only unquestioned HOF player is Pujols, but Pujols isn't going to get nearly the fanfare that Jeter will. Many of the others won't just "not get the fanfare," but will likely not make the HoFame at all.
Click to expand...

If Mike Mussina didn't retire early he would have been on the Hall.

How is Thome not an unquestioned HOF player?
 
C

chicagocubsfan

Member
On that list Price, Zimmerman, Samardzija, Upton, Cespedes, Gordon, Encarnacion, and Wieters should clear 100MM+ pretty easily. Heyward too if he has a good year.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Fox318 said:
A players numbers alone do not make him a HOF player.

Look at Bill Mazeroski for example
Click to expand...

I'm actually very open to the idea that jerks should be kept out of the hall of fame. I don't think Mussina (for instance) is known for being a jerk, however. Nor is Larry Walker. Nor is Thome, but I agree he is likely to be in.
 
F

Fox318

Member
Opiate said:
I'm actually very open to the idea that jerks should be kept out of the hall of fame. I don't think Mussina (for instance) is known for being a jerk, however. Nor is Larry Walker. Nor is Thome, but I agree he is likely to be in.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of jerks in the hall of fame.

VMUo8Dz.png

2E8sngw.png

sutRJNZ.png
 
C

cashman

Banned
Opiate said:
Some players with higher career WAR than Derek Jeter:

Albert Pujols (by a lot, over 25+ WAR)
Adrian Beltre (and he's still going)
Larry Walker
Jim Thome
Mike Mussina
Mike Trout in 3 years

Of those, the only unquestioned HOF player is Pujols, but Pujols isn't going to get nearly the fanfare that Jeter will. Many of the others won't just "not get the fanfare," but will likely not make the HoFame at all.
Click to expand...

added on another name.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Fox318 said:
There are plenty of jerks in the hall of fame.
Click to expand...

I understand that. This not a sound argument. Showing that mistakes were made in the past does not argue that more mistakes should be allowed in the future.

Unless you believe jerks should be allowed in, in which case I don't understand your argument. If numbers aren't everything, but character doesn't matter, then what other variable are you considering?
 
F

Fox318

Member
Opiate said:
I understand that. This not a sound argument. Showing that mistakes were made in the past does not argue that more mistakes should be allowed in the future.

Unless you believe jerks should be allowed in, in which case I don't understand your argument. If numbers aren't everything, but character doesn't matter, then what other variable are you considering?
Click to expand...

I'm saying its a mixture of both and it all really depends on the values of the voters during that time.
 
N

Ninja Scooter

Member
Fox318 said:
If Mike Mussina didn't retire early he would have been on the Hall.

How is Thome not an unquestioned HOF player?
Click to expand...


A lot of his resume is from just hanging around so long. Granted there is something to be said for having the ability to play as long as guys like him do, but I never really considered him one of the best of the best, and I'd find is sort of silly if he were in while other players who I think were far superior (Edgar, piazza, bonds, bagwell) are not. He will probably get in though because he has the counting stats and because the writers have decided that he was "clean" and will want to eventually induct a "clean" slugger into the hall to stick it to those hitters that they've decided are "dirty" because, you know, bacne and stuff.
 
F

Fox318

Member
Ninja Scooter said:
A lot of his resume is from just hanging around so long. Granted there is something to be said for having the ability to play as long as guys like him do, but I never really considered him one of the best of the best, and I'd find is sort of silly if he were in while other players who I think were far superior (Edgar, piazza, bonds, bagwell) are not. He will probably get in though because he has the counting stats and because the writers have decided that he was "clean" and will want to eventually induct a "clean" slugger into the hall to stick it to those hitters that they've decided are "dirty" because, you know, bacne and stuff.
Click to expand...

So Jim Thome is like hank Aaron then.

Edgar Martinez is not a hall of famer.
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
Thome was terrible in the field, but if you check B-Ref you'll see he was still one of the most valuable hitters ever. I'm impressed to see he had the 4th highest AB per HR ever, behind only Ruth, Bonds and McGwire -- I knew he was a good home run hitter, not that he was one of the best of all time. (Though admittedly, some of his other stats are a lot less impressive.)

Opiate said:
I'm actually very open to the idea that jerks should be kept out of the hall of fame. I don't think Mussina (for instance) is known for being a jerk, however. Nor is Larry Walker. Nor is Thome, but I agree he is likely to be in.
Click to expand...

Why should "jerks" be kept out of the Hall of Fame? Most of the time players get that reputation just because of some whiny sportswriters who had their feelings hurt over some perceived slight, regardless of whether or not it's justified. I'd rather have a HoF that celebrated on-field accomplishments, except in very extreme cases. Like, if Ugueth Urbina had somehow put together a Hall of Fame career, I'd say his off-field stuff would be a total disqualifier. Otherwise, though, if the numbers are good enough, put them in.
 
TheSadRanger

TheSadRanger

Banned
Opiate said:
Some players with higher career WAR than Derek Jeter:

Albert Pujols (by a lot, over 25+ WAR)
Adrian Beltre (and he's still going)
Larry Walker
Jim Thome
Mike Mussina

Of those, the only unquestioned HOF player is Pujols, but Pujols isn't going to get nearly the fanfare that Jeter will. Many of the others won't just "not get the fanfare," but will likely not make the HoFame at all.
Click to expand...

qKSn2LB.gif


:p
 
O

Opiate

Member
matthewwhatever said:
Why should "jerks" be kept out of the Hall of Fame?
Click to expand...

Because jerks are less entertaining to watch. Baseball players are entertainers, and if (for example) a member of a team was a flagrant racist and homophobe, I would not enjoy watching him even if he shattered every record in baseball.
 
M

matthewwhatever

Member
Barry Bonds mainly got labelled a jerk because a bunch of
white
sportswriters didn't like that there was someone who didn't kowtow to them at all times.

Opiate said:
Because jerks are less entertaining to watch. Baseball players are entertainers, and if (for example) a member of a team was a flagrant racist and homophobe, I would not enjoy watching him even if he shattered every record in baseball.
Click to expand...

If there was a great player who was also a bigot, then sure, I'd feel conflicted about his candidacy. That said, you listed Pujols, and considering he's pretty openly a Glenn Beck Republican -- disingenuous denials notwithstanding -- so how do you reconcile that?
 
O

Opiate

Member
matthewwhatever said:
If there was a great player who was also a bigot, then sure, I'd feel conflicted about his candidacy. That said, you listed Pujols, and considering he's pretty openly a Glenn Beck Republican -- disingenuous denials notwithstanding -- so how do you reconcile that?
Click to expand...

Exactly how I described. I almost used him as an example. At least in that case, it's modestly complicated; he still does enormous charity work in Saint Louis. He's good to his kids (one of whom he adopted when he married his wife). Almost no one is cartoonishly evil; Pujols strikes me as "kind of a jerk," but we're not in John Rocker territory here or anything. He's not a criminal, either.

So with that said, I was moderately less entertained by Pujols than I would have been if I felt he was a great person. On the flipside, I was more entertained by Tony Gwynn than I would have been if he had just had those numbers. Frankly, his numbers are actually just borderline hall of fame worthy, given that he was reasonably weak at everything but hitting for average (which he did exceptionally well, no question). But he was such a great person that I have absolutely no qualms having him in the HoF and would argue with someone who suggested he shouldn't be.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Little Green Yoda said:
He should make it but isn't the HoF historically tough on voting in 3Bmen? It depends on how progressive the voters are by the time he's on the ballot.
Click to expand...

A huge portion of Beltre's value is tied in his defense and overall solid offense. He doesn't do anything extremely well on offense, and he's never won a world series.

This was my point, really. Players like Beltre should be in the HoF, but they lack the "aura" that players like Jeter have. That "aura" for Jeter is some combination of 1) He played his entire career in NYC, 2) The teams he has been on have won many world series, and 3) He developed a reputation as a "classy" guy.

I don't think any of those should count except number 3, and even that's questionable. Nice guy? Absolutely, reward nice people. Jeter's not a bad person, but he's more known for saying the right things, dating sexy women and yet not knocking any of them up or being charged with abuse. There's a distinction between generous/kind and "classy." Jeter might be both, but he gets his "aura" from the latter.
 
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