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MLB - Official 2012 Season Thread: Mike Francesa Fan Club |OT3|

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Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
I can already tell who he'll vote for based on this article but he's sounding Joe Morgan levels of stupid here. nut, is he correct about WAR though?
Yes he correct that there are different ways people calculate Wins Above Replacement. The two main versions of WAR (Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference) use different statistics to calculate different portions of WAR. FGs uses Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) for pitching, and BR uses Runs Allowed. On defense FGs uses Ultimate Zone Rating (UZR) and Baseball Reference uses Total Zone. UZR is the more accurate defensive statistic but only goes back to 2002. (FG uses Total Zone for seasons prior to 2002). And then baserunning FG uses Ultimate Base Running (UBR) some other weighted system. I personally just stick to Fangraphs.

btw, if you just look at the statistic wRC+ (think of it as a weighted version and park adjusted version of OPS) you can tell trout is the better player.

Trout 171 wRC+
Cabrera 164 wRC+

the positional adjustment for 3B and CF are about the same, but I think its pretty clear which is the better defender and then of course the better baserunner.

Its really a no-brainer on who should be the MVP. Trout should be unanimous.
 
but he's wrong on it being hypothetical though right?
i'm just trying to understand why he outright dismisses such a handy stat. he seems to come at it from the angle of "bigger numbers mean betetr player thus more impact to the league" I think.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
but he's wrong on it being hypothetical though right?
i'm just trying to understand why he outright dismisses such a handy stat. he seems to come at it from the angle of "bigger numbers mean better player thus more impact to the league" I think.
I think he is coming at the notion that the triple crown actually means something (and just being too lazy to learn about it, 5 yrs ago I was the same way). Batting Avg. only tells you part of the story, RBIs tell you nothing and HRs only tell you some of the story. To leave out walks, HBPs, reaching base on errors, doubles, triples, stolen bases, going from 1st to 3rd on a single, defense, positional and park adjustments (all the little things that they preach)... is just lazy. The triple crown tells you nothing, I love that its such a rare feat and I love watching players chase it but like always these writers get washed up in the narrative.

As for wins above replacement being some hypothetical statistic, eh. WAR is just a container people use so you can glance at one statistic and get a good idea of how good or bad overall a player is. The stats that make up WAR are some reliable statistics, I would take stuff like FIP (well actually xFIP and SIERA) over ERA and things like UZR (and Defensive Runs Saved) over Fielding %. wRC+ over OPS etc...

Front Offices use their own versions of this stuff as well (and i'm sure much better versions), if that isn't a validation of the concept then I don't know what is. There is a reason that dude is a writer and not a baseball evaluator.
 

zulux21

Member
Its really a no-brainer on who should be the MVP. Trout should be unanimous.
I am willing to bet that Cabrera will win it though, unless by some miracle the angels actually make the playoffs. Cy Young / MVP tend to be heavily influenced by if their team makes the playoffs or not.
It will likely be about split if tigers make it and angels don't and cabrera misses the triple crown, but if tigers make the playoffs, angels don't and cabrera gets the triple crown he will likely be almost unanimously the MVP.
btw I would give the MVP to Trout personally, he had an unreal season, but I am not one of the people able to vote on it :p

I also wouldn't be surprised one bit if Verlander gets the Cy Young over Price/Weaver/Rodney
 

Fenix

Member
It's weird seeing people saying Cabrera shouldn't be penalized for his bad defense and baserunning and focusing his entire MVP candidacy on offense. They know there's an award for the best hitter, right?
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
I decided to leave a comment on that blog (that he will never read).

edit: lol wow just noticed that the AL Central leader (Tigers @ 86 wins) would be in 4th place in both the AL East and the AL West. Fucking Pathetic. Yay @ the team with the 7th best record in the AL making the playoffs...
 
I decided to leave a comment on that blog (that he will never read).

edit: lol wow just noticed that the AL Central leader (Tigers @ 86 wins) would be in 4th place in both the AL East and the AL West. Fucking Pathetic. Yay @ the team with the 7th best record in the AL making the playoffs...

It's incredible how such a mediocre team was carried by both Miggy and Verlander.
 

Fenix

Member
If someone wins the triple crown which hasn't been done in over 30 years, they get the Hank Aaron Award.
Fixed, cause that award is about the best hitter and the Triple Crown is about hitting categories (despite using outdated stats like AVG and RBI). The MVP is about best all-around season and there it's not even close.
Edit: Fun fact, Trout has put up only the third ever 30 HR 48 SB season, so much rarer than a Triple Crown. And he missed nearly all of April!
 
Fixed, cause that award is about the best hitter and the Triple Crown is about hitting categories (despite using outdated stats like AVG and RBI). The MVP is about best all-around season and there it's not even close.

Trout does everything well. Thats an MVP to me.
 
It's weird seeing people saying Cabrera shouldn't be penalized for his bad defense and baserunning and focusing his entire MVP candidacy on offense. They know there's an award for the best hitter, right?

And, oddly enough, these are probably the same people who say that DH's don't belong in the league or the Hall of Fame.

Mitch Williams actually argued that it's unfair to compare runs scored between Trout and Cabrera because Miggy is slower and doesn't get as many opportunities to score. He used this as an argument FOR Cabrera. These are the people covering baseball and influencing things like MVP votes.
 
Look at the list of names that have won the triple crown: Mantle, Yaz, Cobb, Gehrig, Teddy fucking Ballgame... the people saying that it means nothing to have their name on that list beside those players have let sabermetrics rot their mind.

But yeah, Trout's still the better player.
 
Look at the list of names that have won the triple crown: Mantle, Yaz, Cobb, Gehrig, Teddy fucking Ballgame... the people saying that it means nothing to have their name on that list beside those players have let sabermetrics rot their mind.

It's a nice achievement, but it doesn't really mean anything or make your season more valuable. A guy could hit .330/45/125 and win the triple crown, or someone else could hit 46 homeruns and he doesn't win the triple crown. Does that mean his season was any less valuable?
 

RobotHaus

Unconfirmed Member
It's a nice achievement, but it doesn't really mean anything or make your season more valuable. A guy could hit .330/45/125 and win the triple crown, or someone else could hit 46 homeruns and he doesn't win the triple crown. Does that mean his season was any less valuable?

I think it also comes from how his team is doing. If it's a heavy offensive team and he has good numbers, it kind of gets lost. If he makes up a majority of the offense for his team, then yeah, he is much more valuable of an asset to have on the team.

MVP should be who is the best player, but determining what characteristics qualify someone for being the best is entirely relative.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
If someone wins the triple crown which hasn't been done in over 30 years, they get the MVP.
i hope you are saying what will happen and not what should happen. Because if not....then i have lost hope in you.
Look at the list of names that have won the triple crown: Mantle, Yaz, Cobb, Gehrig, Teddy fucking Ballgame... the people saying that it means nothing to have their name on that list beside those players have let sabermetrics rot their mind.

But yeah, Trout's still the better player.
Yes great players usually win the triple crown (you have to be pretty damn good to lead the league in batting avg and hrs) but that does not mean they are the MVP. Triple Crown tells you some of the story, not the entire thing. I think of the 15 or so TC winners like only 9 or 10 had the best season. (too lazy to look it up, read it in a article recently)
 

Sanjuro

Member
It's a nice achievement, but it doesn't really mean anything or make your season more valuable. A guy could hit .330/45/125 and win the triple crown, or someone else could hit 46 homeruns and he doesn't win the triple crown. Does that mean his season was any less valuable?

In this individual sport? Yes.
 

Gannd

Banned
i hope you are saying what will happen and not what should happen. Because if not....then i have lost hope in you.
Yes great players usually win the triple crown (you have to be pretty damn good to lead the league in batting avg and hrs) but that does not mean they are the MVP. Triple Crown tells you some of the story, not the entire thing. I think of the 15 or so TC winners like only 9 or 10 had the best season. (too lazy to look it up, read it in a article recently)

I am saying what will happen. I think the fact that the Angels are not getting to the playoffs means that Trout should get Rookie of the Year. Same reason Braun deserved mvp last year. The game is played to get the championship.
 

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
I am saying what will happen. I think the fact that the Angels are not getting to the playoffs means that Trout should get Rookie of the Year. Same reason Braun deserved mvp last year. The game is played to get the championship.
Team performance should have no impact on a individual award.
 

cashman

Banned
I am saying what will happen. I think the fact that the Angels are not getting to the playoffs means that Trout should get Rookie of the Year. Same reason Braun deserved mvp last year. The game is played to get the championship.
The angels will most likely finish with a better record than the tigers. They play in a stronger division too.
 

clemenx

Banned
I want to see Cabrera win MVP just to watch the world burn.

This is my main annoyance with the MVP discussion this year.

People are somehow talking as if a dude who is going to end with 7 WAR season and who thus far is a surefire HOF winning an award would be some unspeakeable travesty. Come on, this is not Jim Rice getting into HOF or Zito winning Cy over Pedro.

I love WAR as much as everyone else but people acting as if it makes this choice black and white are missing the point of WAR and turning into mini Joe Morgans.

And I think Trout deserves it, fwiw.
 

rekameohs

Banned
I think that Kemp losing to Braun was more egregious than if Trout loses to Cabrera because he gets the Triple Crown.

I don't see the fuss. Yeah, writers don't know how to use sabermetrics, whatever. It's always been that way.
 
Having a Triple Crown winner would be incredibly awesome and make me feel like I'm living in old-timey baseball days. And I will eat my left shoe if a TC winner doesn't get voted MVP. And yeah, you pretty much have to be on the short, short list for MVP if you've won the Triple Crown.

But of course there could be a better player than a Triple Crown winner who just happened to not lead the league in all three categories. And it would pretty clearly be Trout this year.
 

Link

The Autumn Wind
Having a Triple Crown winner would be incredibly awesome and make me feel like I'm living in old-timey baseball days. And I will eat my left shoe if a TC winner doesn't get voted MVP. And yeah, you pretty much have to be on the short, short list for MVP if you've won the Triple Crown.

But of course there could be a better player than a Triple Crown winner who just happened to not lead the league in all three categories. And it would pretty clearly be Trout this year.
It's also going to help Cabrera's case that it looks like the Tigers will be going to the playoffs and the Angels won't.
 

clemenx

Banned
Even with Fielder added, I think it's impressive they're winning the Division again, given how big Avila and Peralta's drop was. Though, A-Jax improved a lot. Lol Yankees.

More than anything it's thanks to the AL CentrLOL imo.
 

cashman

Banned
Prince hasn't exactly been horrible this year.

But outside of those 3, their team is largely unimpressive.


Also, Trout is the best player in the MLB ... makes me sad.

They have Austin Jackson who has a higher fWAR than Fielder, and also Scherzer and sometimes Fister.
 

Lambtron

Unconfirmed Member
I'm surprised the Tigers haven't won more than 86 games considering they got to face the Twins'... rotation (calling them pitchers would be offensive to actual pitchers) 18 times.

Anyway, Miggy can't win the Triple Crown when Mauer is going to win the batting title.
 
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