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MLB - Official 2012 Season Thread: Mike Francesa Fan Club |OT3|

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W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
weekend_warrior said:
IThat's your argument? Trout has 2 assists and 2 errors, there are 11 players in the AL with more assists, and about 40 with less errors. Yeah, Cabrera has 13 errors at 3rd, despite it being his first year there since moving over for Prince. "But but but but... RANGE!" Save your range factor for some who gives a shit. Fact is defense plays a substantially smaller role in determining value then hitting does.
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duuuuuddeeeee F%? really?
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
Why isn't there a Luckiest Fucker award given to the worst player on the best team?

The "MVP" debate always comes down to a weird parsing of the word "valuable", but the award is obviously meant to be the highest honor given to an individual player. So why would you factor in something as random and unrelated to a player as the performance of everyone else on his team? It's like trying to figure out the best player while also weighing the quality of food concessions where he plays. Who cares?
 
C

cashman

Banned
weekend_warrior said:
I'd only pick a player on a non-playoff team if his stats were MARKEDLY better then any players on playoff teams.

Think about it- lets take WAR (cause I know you kids love you sabermetrics). Cabrera's WAR is 6.5, those 6 games are the difference between the Tigers winning the Central, and missing the playoffs completely. Trouts is 10.5, those 10.5 are the difference between the Angels placing 3rd in the West and missing the playoffs... and placing 3rd in the West and missing the playoffs.

So really, wheres the "value" in MVP? Trout's a great player, he's going to win ROTY. But Cabrera, along with putting up better stats, has been more valuable to his team.



That's your argument? Trout has 2 assists and 2 errors, there are 11 players in the AL with more assists, and about 40 with less errors. Yeah, Cabrera has 13 errors at 3rd, despite it being his first year there since moving over for Prince. "But but but but... RANGE!" Save your range factor for some who gives a shit. Fact is defense plays a substantially smaller role in determining value then hitting does.
Click to expand...

You realize the Angels have a better record than the Tigers right? You realize this right?
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Joe Shlabotnik said:
Why isn't there a Luckiest Fucker award given to the worst player on the best team?

The "MVP" debate always comes down to a weird parsing of the word "valuable", but the award is obviously meant to be the highest honor given to an individual player. So why would you factor in something as random and unrelated to a player as the performance of everyone else on his team? It's like trying to figure out the best player while also weighing the quality of food concessions where he plays. Who cares?
Click to expand...
NotGraphs made up the Triple Dunce Cap award. Something that Jamie Weeks has a long shot at getting.

http://www.fangraphs.com/not/index.php/the-triple-dunce-cap/
 
W

weekend_warrior

Banned
Windu said:
so what you are saying is if Cabrera was as valuable as Trout the tigers would have clinched a week ago. gotcha.

(and btw I have stated this a million times already in this thread, Trout has been the superior offensive player this season. so I don't know where you are coming from with the better numbers argument.)
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xbhaskarx said:
I hate humoring people on this team nonsense for individual awards, but:
- What would happen if you put the Tigers in the AL West and the Angels in the AL Central?
- Or if the Tigers didn't get to face the inferior competition in the ALC a disproportionate amount of the time?
- Or if Mike Trout didn't have to face the superior pitching staffs of the A's, Mariners, and Rangers (ranked 2, 3, and 7 in AL team ERA, as opposed to the 9, 10, 13, and 14--that's second to last and last-- teams) a disproportionate amount of the time?
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That's all semantics. I'm not playing a game of what-ifs. You can't prove that Trout would have lead the Tigers to the playoffs and you can't prove that Cabrera wouldn't have lead the Angels to it. The seasons been played, what's done is done. I'd have Trout on my team anyday, but Cabrera is the clear MVP.
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
weekend_warrior said:
I'd only pick a player on a non-playoff team if his stats were MARKEDLY better then any players on playoff teams.

Think about it- lets take WAR (cause I know you kids love you sabermetrics). Cabrera's WAR is 6.5, those 6 games are the difference between the Tigers winning the Central, and missing the playoffs completely. Trouts is 10.5, those 10.5 are the difference between the Angels placing 3rd in the West and missing the playoffs... and placing 3rd in the West and missing the playoffs.

So really, wheres the "value" in MVP? Trout's a great player, he's going to win ROTY. But Cabrera, along with putting up better stats, has been more valuable to his team.



That's your argument? Trout has 2 assists and 2 errors, there are 11 players in the AL with more assists, and about 40 with less errors. Yeah, Cabrera has 13 errors at 3rd, despite it being his first year there since moving over for Prince. "But but but but... RANGE!" Save your range factor for some who gives a shit. Fact is defense plays a substantially smaller role in determining value then hitting does.
Click to expand...

hahaohwow.jpg

dude, come on now
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Jangocube said:
Can't keep an O's fan down damnit!

I can't believe we are in the playoffs. Hopefully we take the East!
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ha, welcome back
weekend_warrior said:
That's all semantics. I'm not playing a game of what-ifs. You can't prove that Trout would have lead the Tigers to the playoffs and you can't prove that Cabrera wouldn't have lead the Angels to it. The seasons been played, what's done is done. I'd have Trout on my team anyday, but Cabrera is the clear MVP.
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what the hell.

/facepalm
 
C

cashman

Banned
If Cabrera hadn't been so adamant about getting the Tigers moved to the AL Central, the Tigers would already be eliminated from playoff contention. YOU CAN'T COACH THAT
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
The Tigers are 3 games up on the White Sox. Rick Porcello has been worth exactly 3.0 WAR. Therefore he deserves to be MVP.
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
Holy shit Jango

undertaker-sit-up-o.gif
 
X

xbhaskarx

Member
weekend_warrior said:
That's all semantics. I'm not playing a game of what-ifs. You can't prove that Trout would have lead the Tigers to the playoffs and you can't prove that Cabrera wouldn't have lead the Angels to it. The seasons been played, what's done is done. I'd have Trout on my team anyday, but Cabrera is the clear MVP.
Click to expand...

I don't even know what this means... time to exit the thread before my head explodes.

But can you respond to this one very real and not hypothetical question:
cashman said:
You realize the Angels have a better record than the Tigers right? You realize this right?
Click to expand...
 
Z

zulux21

Member
so who do people feel is the AL comeback player of the year?
I am not sure personally but I know I wouldn't remotely give it to adam dunn, he isn't even the comeback player of the year for the white sox (nor even second) let alone the AL... I would put both Rios and Peavy before dunn as comeback player.
 
D

Dmncnby2k9

Banned
zulux21 said:
so who do people feel is the AL comeback player of the year?
I am not sure personally but I know I wouldn't remotely give it to adam dunn, he isn't even the comeback player of the year for the white sox (nor even second) let alone the AL... I would put both Rios and Peavy before dunn as comeback player.
Click to expand...

Fernando Rodney maybe?
 
D

Dmncnby2k9

Banned
zulux21 said:
to me comeback would mean they would have had to have a stand out season previously/ in the last few years. Rodney is having an amazing year but to me he really isn't coming back from anything special
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yea true.
and Bay sucks so much potential RBIs get thrown out at home.
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Braves fans, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, it would be nice to actually win the division. On the other, it would probably be better for the team to go the wild card route at this point, rather then tieing for the division and then having to play an extra tie breaker game.
 
S

Sanjuro

Member
zulux21 said:
so who do people feel is the AL comeback player of the year?
I am not sure personally but I know I wouldn't remotely give it to adam dunn, he isn't even the comeback player of the year for the white sox (nor even second) let alone the AL... I would put both Rios and Peavy before dunn as comeback player.
Click to expand...

Kevin Youkilis.
 
J

Jangocube

Banned
M

Mr. Enigma

Member
CygnusXS said:
Braves fans, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, it would be nice to actually win the division. On the other, it would probably be better for the team to go the wild card route at this point, rather then tieing for the division and then having to play an extra tie breaker game.
Click to expand...

Division would still be better. At least in the tiebreaker, they can start Minor or something since it's not must-win. Then they still get a chance to use Medlen in NLDS Game 1.
 
Z

zulux21

Member
endresults said:
Does being mediocre for an entire career and then having a breakout season qualify for that award?

EDIT: Giving up only 5ER in 73 innings has to be worth SOMETHING, though. Just sickening.
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don't they have like a renolyds relief reward or something like that lol?
but yeah it's an amazing season. If he can remotely reproduce those results next year he might be looking at a decent payout despite being 37 for the start of the 2014 season.
 
W

weekend_warrior

Banned
xbhaskarx said:
I don't even know what this means... time to exit the thread before my head explodes.

But can you respond to this one very real and not hypothetical question:
Click to expand...

Yeah you're right. When the Angels are watching the playoffs from home at least they can hold their heads high knowing they won more games then the Tigers. Cause really, that's all that matters. Making the playoffs? Who cares. When all is said and done the only thing people will remember about this season is that the Angels won more games. The Tigers could go on to win the World Series, but nobody will care, because the Angels won more games. TROUT4MVP ANGELS WON MORE GAMES GUYS.
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
AnEternalEnigma said:
Division would still be better. At least in the tiebreaker, they can start Minor or something since it's not must-win. Then they still get a chance to use Medlen in NLDS Game 1.
Click to expand...

But, if we lose the game against the Nats (which, come on, we probably would), then we still have to play against the other Wild Card team, and the team's lost an off-day.
 
E

endresults

Member
weekend_warrior said:
Yeah you're right. When the Angels are watching the playoffs from home at least they can hold their heads high knowing they won more games then the Tigers. Cause really, that's all that matters. Making the playoffs? Who cares. When all is said and done the only thing people will remember about this season is that the Angels won more games. The Tigers could go on to win the World Series, but nobody will care, because the Angels won more games. TROUT4MVP ANGELS WON MORE GAMES GUYS.
Click to expand...

But there's no way to prove that the Tigers would win the world series if they were the Angels and no way to prove the Angels would win the world series if they were the Tigers.
inception.gif
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
ok WW, lets just look at their basic offensive line.

Cabrera .325/.390/.601
Trout .321/.395/.557

ok by this basic line, Cabrera has Trout beat. I'll let you have that (even though they are actually similar and trout has the edge when looking at more accurate statistics but whatever).

Ok baserunning. Trout has 48 SBs and 4 CS (92%). Cabrera 4 SBs and 1 CS (80%). both players have a great success rate (although I highly doubt it would continue for Cabrera). Anyway Trout is the clear winner here.

And defense. I'll just post some scouting reports of Trout.
Arm: His weakest tool he lacks natural arm strength and even when he tries to get after it the best he can generate is a fringe-average throw. He has good accuracy on his throws. Grade – 40/40
Fielding: Fantastic instincts for the position with tremendous jumps on balls hit to his right, left, and directly at him. Takes proper routes and can cover everything from gap to gap. Still learning when to make the spectacular play and when to play it a little safe. Grade (center field) – 60/70
Speed: Shows true 80-grade speed from home-to-first and covers a ton of ground in the outfield. Absolute burner right now though there are some mild concerns that he will slow down as he matures. Even if he does, he’s probably still a plus-plus runner. Grade – 80/70
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Rated Best Defensive OF in the Midwest League in 2010
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Rated Best Defensive OF in the Texas League in 2011
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Rated Best Defensive OF in the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim system after the 2011 season
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Defense

Natural. That’s the only word I can use to describe how he moves in the field. Everything is fluid and effortless yet fast and powerful. He was reportedly clocked at 90 MPH as a pitcher in high school and his outfield arm is definitely a plus, especially for a center fielder.
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now about Miguel Cabrera...(this is from 2003 or before, when he wasn't a fat ass)
Cabrera is a physical specimen. Originally a shortstop, he has outgrown the position and is now at third base. His arm is very strong and his hands aren't bad, but his range is only average even at third base. He might end up at an outfield corner eventually, but he'll stay at third as long as possible. He lacks pure speed, but gets a decent jump and is a fundamentally sound runner who can't be ignored.
Click to expand...
His defense at shortstop wasn't great and the offensive numbers were nothing special at all, but scouts were full of praise for his offensive potential, projecting him as a big-time power hitter.
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so when he was coming up he was projected as a average defensive player, that ws before his massive weight gain.

soo what we have here is Trout and Cabrera are both great hitters, but that is where the comparisons stop. Cabrera is a average at best at 3rd base while Trout is a superb defensive OFer. And baserunning....come on.
CygnusXS said:
Braves fans, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, it would be nice to actually win the division. On the other, it would probably be better for the team to go the wild card route at this point, rather then tieing for the division and then having to play an extra tie breaker game.
Click to expand...
i'll happily take the extra tie breaker. one more chance to get to the division series.
 
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