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[West Texas CEO]

From CNN:

A mother’s love does have limits, it seems. At least for a 75-year-old woman in the northern Italian city of Pavia who won a court order after suing to have her sons, aged 40 and 42, removed from her house, a court clerk in Pavia told CNN Friday.

The two sons, described in court papers by their mother as “parasites,” had been living in the family apartment without contributing financially or helping around the house, according to the complaint filed by the woman, who has not been named, in a the Tribunal of Pavia district court. Both men are employed, the court documents state.

Judge Simona Caterbi sided with the retired mother, who is separated from the men’s father and whose pension went entirely on food and maintenance of the home, ruling that the two “bamboccioni,” or big babies, have until December 18 to vacate the premises, according to Tuesday’s court ruling, seen by CNN.


Caterbi wrote: “There is no provision in the legislation which attributes to the adult child the unconditional right to remain in the home exclusively owned by the parents, against their will and by virtue of the family bond alone.”

The men, who hired lawyers to fight the maternal eviction, according to the local newspaper La Provincia Pavese, argued that Italian parents are required by law to take care of their children as long as necessary.

Caterbi cited the existing law in her ruling and agreed that “the stay in the property could initially be considered well founded because the law is based on the maintenance obligation incumbent on the parent.”

She then ruled that “it no longer appears justifiable considering the two defendants are subjects over 40 and once a certain age has been exceeded, the child can no longer expect the parents to continue the maintenance obligation beyond limits that are no longer reasonable.”

A lawyer for the men told local media that the men had not decided if they would appeal the court decision.

This is not the first time “mammoni,” an Italian term used to describe adult men who are too dependent on their mothers, has cropped up in the legal system.

In 2020, Italy’s Supreme Court ruled against a 35-year-old man who worked as a part-time music teacher who still expected financial support from his parents after he argued that he could not support himself on an annual salary of 20,000 euros ($21,100).

On average, Italians leave their parental home at the average age of 30, according to Eurostat 2022 data. Croatia is the highest in the European Union, with an average age of 33.4 years. By contrast, offspring in Finland, Sweden and Denmark start life on their own at the average age of 21, according to the same data.

Thoughts? How long should a child actively live with their parents?

Myself, I'm a NEET at age 24 and plan to stay with my relatives until 45.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

It entirely depends on the local economy. My understanding is that Italy is essentially a gerontocracy and that young people there have no economic future unless they leave the country. If the average person doesn’t leave until they’re 30, it’s not surprising a few are still there in their 40s.

 

[Big Baller]

 

[Lunarorbit]

One of my former coworkers and his older brother lived with their father and they are both in their 50s.

The dad was the former superintendent of state police in Connecticut so he got a pension of over $100,000 a year. The older brother would steal his money constantly and my coworker complained NONSTOP about it.

I told him to call elder services or give other solutions at every turn. He would rather complain than help his dad. He was addicted to complaining.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

Those two man-babies worked harder in court for their right to mooch than they've ever...actually worked.

 

[-Minsc-]

I just so happened to watch this video at my churches mens group last night which, in part, addressed the issue.

 

[Putonahappyface]

I moved out at the age of nineteen. Living in a volatile violent household is a great motivator.

 

[TheCed]

Moved out at 22 on my own accord.

My parents are great people, but at that age I felt like I was stagnating and if I hadn't moved I may have ended up like those 2 bozzos.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Depends, the most important thing is that you are contributing and not be a parasite; the free ride stops at 18 when the taxman wants a piece too, aside from that if you have a loving family, stay with them forever for all I care, cost of living/housing in big EU cities is fucking expensive.

 

[violence]

I thought if the parents wanted you out of their house, you’re gone. I had no clue you can take them to court.

 

[West Texas CEO]

I thought of the parents wanted you out of their house, you’re gone. I had no clue you can take them to court.

In the US, yeah.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Myself, I'm a NEET at age 24 and plan to stay with my relatives until 45.

Fix your life please, your parents do not deserve it.

 

[Raven117]

Graduated law school. Got an apartment. And never looked back.

 

[West Texas CEO]

Fix your life please, your parents do not deserve it.

I think they want to protect me from the outside world due to my autism.

 

[DeafTourette]

If I could have, my daughter wouldn't have had to move out at 20... She's so stubborn. She could have stayed until whenever.

When I moved out to go to college at 18, I wasn't prepared and was in a deep depression for 2 semesters... I couldn't handle it. Back then there was no such thing as remote learning or, in my small town, no local college classes. Eventually found my way after moving back home. I live in Atlanta now but I could move back home any time. My mom isn't the kind to kick any of us out or anything like that. We still have to contribute tho.

 

[Kenpachii]

left my parent house at 25, dad moved in my house when i was 30, dad died when i was 35.

 

[analog_future]

Sad to hear that two GAF members just became homeless

 

[West Texas CEO]

Sad to hear that two GAF members just became homeless

 

[Nydius]

Depends, the most important thing is that you are contributing and not be a parasite; the free ride stops at 18 when the taxman wants a piece too, aside from that if you have a loving family, stay with them forever for all I care, cost of living/housing in big EU cities is fucking expensive.

This is pretty much how I feel about it as well and it's something I'm actively dealing with myself with my adult stepson.

I don't care if he stays so long as he contributes. So long as he pays his portion of the bills and behaves like a responsible adult, he's welcome to stay as long as he'd like. He gets his own privacy and none of the old "my house my rules" stuff because he's and adult pulling his weight. But if he turns into a leech or starts doing things that jeopardize our current lease? He'll find 30 day eviction papers pretty damn quick.

 

[bitbydeath]

I don’t get the mentality of wanting to stay (unless you simply can’t afford it), you should just live on two minute noodles to get that freedom. Think I was 19 when I got my own place and it was great being able to have friends over whenever or going out for walks til midnight without anyone questioning you.

 

[Blade2.0]

Most countries have intergenerational housing, It's really only the USA where society expects you to move out. Independence is good, but what's the point of kicking them out now when in 5 years she'll need them back to take care of her.

 

[Boozeroony]

Most countries have intergenerational housing, It's really only the USA where society expects you to move out. Independence is good, but what's the point of kicking them out now when in 5 years she'll need them back to take care of her.

Many North and Northwestern European countries are very similar, although the average age of moving out increased over the past decade or so.

My parents moved out at 17/18 in the 60's. Different times: they could affort a place to live.

 

[Heimdall_Xtreme]

At 40 years old and still drinking milk??

Mom: he's my 40-year-old baby.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

It's really only the USA where society expects you to move out. Independence is good, but what's the point of kicking them out now when in 5 years she'll need them back to take care of her.

It's because everything is so far away in the US, that's why every college movie has people moving into dorms and live on campus, the school you go to might be so far away, it's like moving countries in Europe; most European countries don't really have that, you just commute to school because it's easy to get there with public transport.
Sure some people get student housing or roommates, but you're not really "independent" then either, so it's pretty pointless unless you hate your family.

 

[DeaDPo0L84]

My wife's youngest brother still lives with his parents, he's 22. He claims it's just because he's still in college so he can't afford living on his own. Thing is he does NOTHING, I mean NOTHING at the house to contribute, he still acts like he's a child. Never puts his dishes away, stays in his room playing videogames most of the day, only comes out if he's hungry or needs money, parents still pay for all this meals any time we are together. I think it's a combination of them not being stern enough and the fact that the two other kids don't live there anymore so they like having at least one child around so they coddle him. He also has social anxiety which is not a shocker since he's a recluse and anytime we are out he constantly stays close to his mom, he's gonna have a tough life when he eventually moves out, has no adult skills whatsoever.

 

[AJUMP23]

My dad told me I could move back home when graduated college. I turned it down. I know that I wanted independence and fend for myself.

I want to help my kids and set them up for success but they have to learn to do stuff for themselves.

 

[ReBurn]

My parents offered to let me live at home during college but I opted to move out and work full time while going to school. It was hard and I barely slept but the freedom was awesome.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Every situation is different.

 

[Sakura]

They were employed but wouldn't pay any rent or anything? What the hell.

 

[Kings Field]

I moved out at 25 after I was done PA school but when my father's heath declined my mom and dad sold their house and moved in with me so I could help my mom take care of him until he died.

Now I'm married and have two children and my mom lives with us but her health is declining also in her 70's so it's nice to have her home with us.

She gets better care from a PA and nurse practicioner than she ever would in a nursing home.

 

[OmegaSupreme]

They were employed but wouldn't pay any rent or anything? What the hell.

That's an even bigger issue for me. Fucking losers.

 

[MALpractice311]

It entirely depends on the local economy. My understanding is that Italy is essentially a gerontocracy and that young people there have no economic future unless they leave the country. If the average person doesn’t leave until they’re 30, it’s not surprising a few are still there in their 40s.

That's my understanding as well from my cousins who have all had to leave Italy to find work in other countries, mostly Germany.

As to how long a child should live with a parent, I think that's highly situational. I loved with my parents until I was 24, but that's because I was going to law school. Living at home allowed me to pay off my law school loans in 3 years, save money for a down payment on a house, and pay my parents rent at the same time.

 

[Sleepwalker]

I stayed at my moms during college, which my dad paid for and even got weekly money to do whatever I wanted until I graduated. 10/10 would repeat. To be fair its pretty comon where i'm from so it wasn't even out of the norm. I moved out to live with my longterm gf (now wife).

 

[StreetsofBeige]

20-something adult: Time to move out. Get a job, rent a place, and hey maybe 50 years from now when my parents die, I'll get some inheritance money

20-something Italian: Hell, if mom and dad are going to give me their house 50 years from now, why not just let me live here till you die? You guys pay for everything and I promise to mow the lawn in between watching Italian futball and driving a nice car

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

It entirely depends on the local economy. My understanding is that Italy is essentially a gerontocracy and that young people there have no economic future unless they leave the country. If the average person doesn’t leave until they’re 30, it’s not surprising a few are still there in their 40s.

There’s that, and there’s also the fact that Italian mothers can be a special kind of helicopter parent. Some restaurant employer tells that a mother called in her son’s place when they were hiring (yes, it’s perfectly normal for Italian mothers to do this) and when she heard that the job would imply some night shifts she literally said, “I didn’t raise my son to have him work at night.”

Those two man-babies worked harder in court for their right to mooch than they've ever...actually worked.

Very likely.

I don’t get the mentality of wanting to stay (unless you simply can’t afford it), you should just live on two minute noodles to get that freedom. Think I was 19 when I got my own place and it was great being able to have friends over whenever or going out for walks til midnight without anyone questioning you.

That’s what every teen dreams of. But the reality of Italy soon makes it a dumb choice more often than not.
Parents would still have to pay rent for you for a while if you go to university, so it’s much more convenient for them to just keep their children in the house until they have a job that can pay rent (and it may be a while).

At 40 years old and still drinking milk??

Mom: he's my 40-year-old baby.

You think you’re joking, but I’m in my 40s and sometimes I still feel like the family’s baby on occasions. Parents and relatives never really stop looking at you as a child in Italy. Which is probably why the lady in the OP waited this long to kick her sons out.

20-something adult: Time to move out. Get a job, rent a place, and hey maybe 50 years from now when my parents die, I'll get some inheritance money

20-something Italian: Hell, if mom and dad are going to give me their house 50 years from now, why not just let me live here till you die? You guys pay for everything and I promise to mow the lawn in between watching Italian futball and driving a nice car

Accurate.

 

[fran.fernandez]

I start working at 21 before finishing university, i saved all my salary and stay with my parents until 28. Then I moved to Japan lol

 

[nkarafo]

It entirely depends on the local economy. My understanding is that Italy is essentially a gerontocracy and that young people there have no economic future unless they leave the country. If the average person doesn’t leave until they’re 30, it’s not surprising a few are still there in their 40s.

Greece is even worse. Cost of living is sky high and ofc, our hourly wages are some of the lowest in Europe. They are not enough for a person to feed themselves if they also have to pay rent. Imagine working 8 hours/6 days and still barely being able to afford food and roof at the same time, you have to ration. I live in my mom's house as a guest and i only have to maintain it and pay the bills, not rent. And even so i still have to very carefully manage what i spend for food.

I mostly stay indoors, playing retro games on my 10 year old PC and browse the internet. I don't go out. I don't drink, i don't smoke, i don't have a car so i don't have to pay for gas. I honestly don't understand how people who get minimum wage can afford these things. The numbers don't add up, it's simple math. If you can afford it it means you must be doing something illegal.

Anyway, most of my friends from my generation live with their parents or in their parent's house if they have one. It's either that or a roommate/relationship who can contribute financially. Friend broke up with his girlfriend a few months ago and back to his mom's house he went. He couldn't even afford to stay on his own for a single month.

Obviously, having kids is mostly a luxury for a while now.

 

[KrakenIPA]

If you can afford it it means you must be doing something illegal.

There are many vices that are legal my friend. Alcohol, tobacco, gambling, driving kinda fast.

 

[Salz01]

On my Monday standup, I’m calling some people bamboccioni, And going to see what happens.

 

[mansoor1980]

...................aged in their 40s."​

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Greece is even worse. Cost of living is sky high and ofc, our hourly wages are some of the lowest in Europe. They are not enough for a person to feed themselves if they also have to pay rent. Imagine working 8 hours/6 days and still barely being able to afford food and roof at the same time, you have to ration. I live in my mom's house as a guest and i only have to maintain it and pay the bills, not rent. And even so i still have to very carefully manage what i spend for food.

I mostly stay indoors, playing retro games on my 10 year old PC and browse the internet. I don't go out. I don't drink, i don't smoke, i don't have a car so i don't have to pay for gas. I honestly don't understand how people who get minimum wage can afford these things. The numbers don't add up, it's simple math. If you can afford it it means you must be doing something illegal.

Anyway, most of my friends from my generation live with their parents or in their parent's house if they have one. It's either that or a roommate/relationship who can contribute financially. Friend broke up with his girlfriend a few months ago and back to his mom's house he went. He couldn't even afford to stay on his own for a single month.

Obviously, having kids is mostly a luxury for a while now.

I don’t think any place is immune because it’s really a world wide trend of declining economic opportunity and skyrocketing cost of living (in particular housing) since the 2000s. but probably most acute in the aging economic basket cases of southern Europe. The USA has managed to avoid the worst of it, but it’s still seeing the same trends.

 

[The Cockatrice]

I know a lot of gaffers are rich and maybe 30+ years ago I would've laughed as well but nowadays? Even food is hardly affordable let alone a fucking place without getting a loan from a bank and paying them for 30 years. I have no way of buying my own place without a bank loan. I already pay for the place where my and my folks live, moving out would mean paying for 2 places which I just...cant.. my only solution is to find someone to move out with, but I am in no rush for commitment as women here in Eastern europe are not gamer-husband friendly and I'd have to give up that life. NO THANK YOU.

 

[Edgelord79]

Situational depending on housing availability, costs, jobs, culture, etc. I think many parent hopes all things go well and their kids have the opportunity to live in their own place with their own family once they get older, Not always the case though.

Good for the mother in this case though. That was parasitic.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

I honestly don't understand how people who get minimum wage can afford these things. The numbers don't add up, it's simple math. If you can afford it it means you must be doing something illegal.

It's generally not something illegal, just people living above their means with loans and debt, just to be able to portray some kind of image into the world.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I honestly don't understand how people who get minimum wage can afford these things. The numbers don't add up, it's simple math. If you can afford it it means you must be doing something illegal.

That’s a pretty safe bet for a lot of people in Italy.
Also, as long as the government can squeeze the people who have a job and pay all their astronomical taxes, there will be money to keep some services running. A lot of things in Italy can be solved by making someone else pay the taxes and do the work some people won’t pay or do anymore. Problem is, we’re not producing more wealth, we’re just consuming it along with the people still able to produce.

There’s also a lot of accumulated wealth in the country, meaning a lot of young and not-so-young people are left free to live the NEET life, knowing they will inherit a good sum one day. A book published in 2019 clearly showed that the number of unemployed people has surpassed the number of people who work in Italy. There’s also a ton of irregular workers that don’t pay taxes. Everyone cries they’re broke and will throw a tantrum if they have to pay a few Euros for prescription drugs. Yet the restaurants are invariably full and most people with children go on vacation at least once a year.

 

[th4tguy]

I lived at home until I transferred to a university that was out of town. I was 20 when I moved into my own apartment close to school.
Graduated and moved. Back into my parents place for a few months while I secured a rental close to my new job and stayed in that rental only for a few months before getting married and buying first house.
I worked almost full time starting at 15, just before turning 16 and did school full time.
When I started working, my parents stopped supporting me financially except for letting me stay rent free. It wasn’t a stated thing. It just sort of settled that way, unspoken. Because I was either at work or school, I managed my own food costs and bought my own clothes, outside of gifts during holidays/ birthdays.
I wanted to move out for my own freedom and I couldn’t imagine living at home past university.

 

[poodaddy]

My mom moved out when I was 17, so I didn't have much say in it. My brother stayed, who was 18, and he moved out two years later, and by that time I was married to my first wife. It's been so long since I've lived with my parents, and I was kind of thrown to the wolves as I never really "moved out" in the typical way, rather I just lived alone for a while then joined the Army and moved across the country and started a family. I feel bad for people who have more typical upbringings and are trying to find out when to do that. I imagine it's a big step for people who are comfortable at home and are unsure. Every one has to leave the nest eventually though. I'm unsure how I would have done it. I suppose just joining the Army kind of does it for you, and I'm fairly certain I would have joined the Army regardless of whether my mom stayed or not. It's an interesting and somewhat intimidating topic for many young men coming of age to deal with I'd wager.

 

[Days like these...]

I think they want to protect me from the outside world due to my autism.

Maybe they want to protect the outside world from you?

 

[West Texas CEO]

Maybe they want to protect the outside world from you?

Same thing.

 

[PSYGN]

I mean the least they could do is help out financially or some other way like cooking, grocery shopping, and yard work.

They waited too long, now they are going to have to play on extra hard difficulty finding a place to stay. I got extremely lucky that I bought my first home right before Covid. The interest rates were at an all time low and I opted for 15 year payment plan. Now my humble house is worth $50k more for no reason (I bought it for $150k, well within my means). Tough market out there now with crazy interest rates and higher home prices. I think no one is really moving unless they have to or they're just not that bright with money.