I did it! Your 'Super heavy female' in Marvel
Ashema the Celestial
And plus don't forget galactus sized Aegis:
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"Ms. Marvel" writer takes issue with New Yorker snarky piece on Marvel's "A-Force"
- Thread starter Dalek
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And plus don't forget galactus sized Aegis:
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe I should do this! Thanks!
AyaisMUsikWhore
Member
Great rebuttal... However I sometimes like my female superheros a little alluring. I don't particularly like when that allure is used to their advantage but I do love her coming in, fighting sexy, ending it sexy, and moving on to the next day. I feel there's nothing wrong with that.
Despite her new costume, Ms. Carol Danvers is a sexy bitch when she come through, new suit and everything. Her militant serious not taking no shit attitude is dope to me. She's an example of above..
Despite her new costume, Ms. Carol Danvers is a sexy bitch when she come through, new suit and everything. Her militant serious not taking no shit attitude is dope to me. She's an example of above..
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Wow. Way to miss the point.
The book was never marketed towards fans of Teen Titans cartoon. The only thing we already knew is that DC has always had a split fanbase between comic fans and DC animated fans.
Dude Abides
Banned
Yeah, that notorious clickbait purveyor Jill Lepore.
Although criticizing a medium primarily aimed at teenage boys for showing women as sex objects is a bit like criticizing your dog for licking its balls.
Why does Wilson seem to think that only people who "want to see comics succeed" are permitted to criticize them?
And that's dumb considering that the Teen Titans cartoons, both of them, even the super dumb current comedy focused one, are the highest rated shows that CN has ever had.
They had a reboot. They should have leaned HARD into what they already knew to be popular. Them not doing that is not only a failure to understand their user base, it's a failure to understand their own marketing. It's the same mindset that has them cast a different person for the flash movie from the flash TV show, even though the show is doing well, 3 years in advance of the movie's release.
It is DC literally cutting off their nose in order to spite their face. "BUT THE MOVIES THOUGH! BUT THE COMICS THOUGH! BUT THE TV SHOW!" They are learning nothing from Marvel's success.
Power Boy, even got the boob window
fuck him. i still cant believe this trashbag of a character got taken out and two good characters went along with him
Comic fans are pros at circling the wagons.
even if they did make starfire and raven like their comics counterparts, i have a hard time believing that it would have made a difference in the long run
unlike any other fandom?
excelsiorlef
Member
The problem on top of her being a relative outsider is that her criticism is just plain off the mark. What is pony and sexual about that cover? Fucking nothing, like I posted the Wonder Woman on the cover of her book was showing more skin. Why go after Jennifer Walters on top of being a heavy hitter she's one of the premier layers in the Marvel Universe. Marvel has done a lot of stupid stuff with women (like everything has sadly) like that stupid Spider-Woman cover which was literally a porn tracing but an all female avengers team written by a woman is not one of them.
I'm not saying that it would have propelled those books into the top 10 or anything.
But I AM saying that they would have sold dramatically better than they did.
Though that being said, outside of the Teen Titans, I don't think any of those characters work on their own. Poor cyborg feels so lifeless post new 52. Every single one of their books is boring.
not really, dick was pretty much tim drake in everything but name. however cyborg has been lifeless for a while before nu52. teen titans was a definite boost in the arm for his character. the last time anyone gave a damn about him was when he was cyberdrome, or when people would get him confused with steel.
Inertia Creeps
Banned
Because she can't handle feedback or criticism from anything outside of her positive echo chamber of comic enthusiasts, so she lashes out and dismisses those outside opinions to make herself feel better.
I'd dismiss the opinion of someone who clearly has no actual knowledge of the subject-at-hand too.
It is? Like, besides basically rebooting Marvel Comics, like, it's a reboot worth reading? Because a lot of these events have me off-putted and overwhelmed. Original Sin has been the only modern event I've read.
That's Disney logic.
excelsiorlef
Member
Right because calling this
Pervy and pornographic is absolutely well leveled criticism.
To provide an opinion, you have to know what you're talking about.
If you're an authority, even if i find the opinion idiotic, i'll do a double-check, because hey, she's supposed to know what she's talking about.
When the critique has neither authority nor sense, there's really no reason not to dismiss it.
I dunno man, you can kinda maybe see a bit of sideboob in the background here:Right because calling this
Pervy and pornographic is absolutely well leveled criticism.
Also goddamn I love that cover. they all have really great costumes. The female ones are always more interesting (when they aren't overly sexualized, which they aren't here)
That also confused me. In what world are those outfits pervy? Has she ever seen yogapants?And this is where I knew exactly who the writer was, where she was coming from, and what she was trying to accomplish.
Doesn't she explain what she means? She's not talking about any permission just that this kind of non constructive criticism is bad criticism.
Yeah that is my main issue.
Mine as well. Dr. Lepore is usually a well researched writer and I expect more than what I got from that article. She seemed uninformed, bitter, and more often than not grasped at straws in her conclusions.
Wilson's not saying that people outside of a medium can't criticize it, just that people who clearly don't have the intellectual willpower to even attempt to understand the current cultural and political climate in a given medium shouldn't criticize. And certainly shouldn't be taken seriously.
The Marvel Comics people have been doing quite a bit lately to update their long time female characters to more practical costumes, and to introduce more diversity in their line up. I think that is commendable considering that a large portion of their core (overwhelmingly male) audience liked the old T&A status quo.
Where does she say she shouldn't be permitted to criticize? She's saying that someone who clearly has no interest in making the medium better isn't offering valuable criticism. It's not like Lepore's article actually had anything remotely thought-provoking. It was a platform to display her aggressive ambivalence toward comics in the most arrogant fashion imaginable.
Right because calling this
Pervy and pornographic is absolutely well leveled criticism.
speaking of which, why is Hawkeye not on this cover? WHAT, MY GIRL KATE AIN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU?! HUH?!?!
I'm just sitting here wondering why Marven hasn't had the Avengers, who OBVIOUSLY need an amazing lawyer to handle all their legal issues, introduce their expert defense attorney yet:
Jennifer Walters
The lack of an on-screen She-Hulk remains one of my biggest disappointments in the MCU (that and no Richard Rider Nova... yet).
With Bruce "missing", she would be a welcome addition to the team.
Jennifer Walters
The lack of an on-screen She-Hulk remains one of my biggest disappointments in the MCU (that and no Richard Rider Nova... yet).
With Bruce "missing", she would be a welcome addition to the team.
excelsiorlef
Member
my lady Kitty Pryde isn't either
, but she's in two of her own books during Secret Wars so I guess I can't complain.Eighty Deuce
Banned
Nice figures = fat shaming and setting unrealistic goals on how people should look. Thanks to Rob Liefeld I will never be able to look in the mirror without crying, I'll never have double D captain America pectorals and hate myself.
or ashamed to have feet...
Dude Abides
Banned
In case you missed it:
Angry Comic Book Writer said:
Ignore and dismiss this person, she isn't in our club so you don't have to listen to her!
Same lazy ad hominem sentiment (see also, "ivory tower," "arrogant") echoed throughout this thread.
People are ignoring her because her opinions are terrible.
Plenty of people have "Dr." in front of their name and have horrifically bad opinions - its not like a PhD tests your judgment.
no ignore this person because she is clueless
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Dude Abides
Banned
In fact, people aren't ignoring her. Hence Wilson's rant and this thread.
People aren't using her Ph.D to validate her. To the contrary, comic fans are using it to dismiss her as an ivory tower elitist, presumably because that's easier than substantively addressing her points.
You're missing the point. She has nothing valuable to say. A large reason she has nothing valuable to say is because it's painfully obvious she doesn't understand the medium she's commenting on. This isn't rocket science. She has a disdain for the medium, displays an apparent unwillingness to even attempt to understand that specific comic, and offers up nothing worthwhile to discuss. The only thing she offers is a smug dismissal and implicit comparison of its popular adoration to the mindset of a 10 year old boy. The "ivory tower" and "arrogant" comments are a response to the actual content of the article.
And what exactly are her points?
Not technically her though.
Dude Abides
Banned
She wrote an entire book about Wonder Woman. I'd wager her understanding of the medium, at least its history, is probably substantially deeper than yours.
Since you appear not to even have read the piece that has you so mad I'll quote some of the points for you:
Horrible Out of Touch Elitist said:
Hahvahd Snob Trying to Ruin Comics said:
The Snotty Professor said:
Object of Today's Two-Minutes Hate said:
I still don't get how those are supposed to be pervy
She drops that like it's some kind of fact that everyone obviously agrees with.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Scarlet Witch's zettai ryouiki is just too much for some
Most of those points you listed are either wrong or are just weird observations stated as fact.
Most of those points you listed are either wrong or are just weird observations stated as fact.
And the counter-example is from someone who WRITES COMICS so wouldn't HER understanding of the medium be even more substantially deeper?
I'm not mad, I did read the piece and those are barely points at all, just smug observations. Also, art history is an entirely different animal than art criticism. Obviously you have a bone to pick with butt-hurt comic book fans, but this is a weak platform to stand on.
People aren't ignoring her because she got published in the New Yorker.
The "If you don't do it, don't criticize" defense is stupid, but that's not what Wilson is saying. The original piece's criticisms about the art are wholly off base and expose more about the writer than they do about the medium.
She wrote an entire book on the creators of Wonder Woman and how their creation paralleled with the feminist movement at the time. While she has a deep understanding of the motivations and themes in Marston's Wonder Woman, it's apparent from this article that she has no understanding of comic books beyond what she researched for that.
It's important to remember that Marston's Wonder Woman is a small snapshot of Comic history and isn't representative of the current realities. She didn't care to know that and seems to be writing from bad faith, in an attempt to shame comic creators and readers into doing something that's already well on is already in the forefront of most creators minds. Her understanding is so shallow that she mentions Wilson's Marvel but doesn't address it with any deeper critique. Considering Mrs. Marvel is the perfect example of the kind of character that Dr. Lepore wants to see it's obvious that she didn't do even the most basic of research in order to come to the conclusions she did.
In other words, this is a hit piece on Comics, likely motivated by a deep dislike of the medium as a whole based on tangential research she'd done for her Maston book. It makes Lepore look worse as a writer and researcher, frankly.
Khrysler Jerikho
Member
...but A-Force isn't even out yet.
Apparently she has a preview issue? I'm not sure.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
She ignored and dismissed her points because she never had a valid point in the first place. Just because someone criticizes something doesn't automatically mean that criticism needs to be respected. The criticism has to make sense before anyone should take it seriously.
You're essentially saying you should listen to people who have no idea what they're talking about, which is clearly where Lepore is coming from. Who gives a shit if she wrote a book about Wonder Woman? That doesn't mean she gets to spout obvious bullshit about the subject and automatically should be respected because she wrote a book once. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, her snarky put down of She-Hulk shows that she has zero knowledge of the history of that character, because she dismisses the character as if she isn't one of the best examples of females in superhero comic book history.
The fact that you're defending her points kind of shows that you have no idea about the subject either, because multiple people in this thread have already pointed out multiple reasons of why her article was poorly written and researched. Plus, I like how you assume she knows more about comic books then the woman putting down her points, who herself is a damn COMIC BOOK WRITER. If your logic is that she knows plenty about comics because she wrote a book about one character, shouldn't the woman who actively writes comic books know more then she does about the subject?
Dude Abides
Banned
Yeah I realize comic fans don't like what she said. You guys are doing an absolutely terrible job of explaining why she's wrong. Show, don't tell.
How is it apparent? Again, you guys do a lot of conclusion-stating, very little argument-making.
So now you know her secret motivations. Again, this is not an actual argument.
Uh, she's talking about A-Force and Age of Ultron. Why would she talk about Ms. Marvel when that's not the subject of her piece. She even acknowledges that Wilson is trying to do something different with Ms. Marvel. The point of this is that if there is such an attempt with A-Force, it's not successful.
Again, try to attack the argument, not your invented motivations.
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