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[Matty77]

So let me get this straight, this Lepore wrote a book about wonder women and her creation and holds it up as a standard?

You mean William Moulton Marston? The guy who lived with his wife and another women in a 3 way open relationship.

Who's Wonder Women was filled with his opinions on the psychology of male and female roles and submission versus domination.

Where her only weakness was submission to men but on the all female island it was common, no encouraged to tie each other up and play games of spanking, submisson, and domination?

I am not passing judgement, I just think it's disingenous to hold that up as a gold standard for both a character and its creator, then bash another comic as practically porn because of its cover.

smh...

 

[Mesoian]

Worse thing to happen to comics is the popularity from the movies spurring people who only look at covers to write bullshit clickbait articles about the comics

Eh, people were always doing that. Now people with DEGREES are doing it.

So let me get this straight, this Lepore wrote a book about wonder women and her creation and holds it up as a standard?

You mean William Moulton Marston? The guy who lived with his wife and another women in a 3 way open relationship.

Who's Wonder Women was filled with his opinions on the psychology of male and female roles and submission versus domination.

Where her only weakness was submission to men but on the all female island it was common, no encouraged to tie each other up and play games of spanking, submisson, and domination?

I am not passing judgement, I just think it's disingenous to hold that up as a gold standard for both a character and its creator, then bash another comic as practically porn because of its cover.

smh...

For what it's worth, all of my comic bros and their comic bros tell me that her book is terrible.

 

[bengraven]

It doesn't. You just look through the bullshit and keep moving forward.

Also, lol at She-Hulk being a figure of the absence of power.



I need to get caught up on Aria Shulk.

You mean Arya right? Because she really looks like Maisie Williams here.

 

[shadyspace]

Worse thing to happen to comics is the popularity from the movies spurring people who only look at covers to write bullshit clickbait articles about the comics

I honestly wish the MCU never happened. It wasn't worth it.

 

[Mesoian]

You mean Arya right? Because she really looks like Maisie Williams here.

Yeah, the running gag for the latest Shehulk run is that the new artstyle makes her look EXACTLY like Arya Stark, so people call it Arya Shulk.

 

[NastyBook]

Interesting that he chose a Frank Cho piece. While Cho is a bit of a lightning rod lately, known for lashing out at his criticism from the usual corners of Tumblr, he's an artist who does a very good job making his female superheroes appear very much capable of their feats of strength. They aren't generic Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition types. And feminist creators like Gail Simone have long been willing to go to bat for Cho on this issue.

I thought the women of Marvel were gonna flat out kill Red Hulk when they started hunting him in the comics, they were looking so jacked.

 

[Slayven]

on point.

What I do

So let me get this straight, this Lepore wrote a book about wonder women and her creation and holds it up as a standard?

You mean William Moulton Marston? The guy who lived with his wife and another women in a 3 way open relationship.

Who's Wonder Women was filled with his opinions on the psychology of male and female roles and submission versus domination.

Where her only weakness was submission to men but on the all female island it was common, no encouraged to tie each other up and play games of spanking, submisson, and domination?

I am not passing judgement, I just think it's disingenous to hold that up as a gold standard for both a character and its creator, then bash another comic as practically porn because of its cover.

smh...

You forgot about him making them wear copper bracelets

Eh, people were always doing that. Now people with DEGREES are doing it.

Yeah but no one gave them attention then

I honestly wish the MCU never happened. It wasn't worth it.

Lets not get crazy

 

[shadyspace]

Lets not get crazy

The movies aren't good enough. Nope, we should have stayed in mom's basement where we belonged.

 

[NastyBook]

The movies aren't good enough. Nope, we should have stayed in mom's basement where we belonged.

Ahh, sarcasm. You had me going there for a second.

 

[aerts1js]

wow I came in expecting a cringe worthy rebuttal but that was actually really well done.

 

[Palette Swap]

Worse thing to happen to comics is the popularity from the movies spurring people who only look at covers to write bullshit clickbait articles about the comics

As a general rule, I do agree but Lepore wrote a book about Wonder Woman. This makes her contribution all the more puzzling. She's not a random tumblrer who decided to take a dump on the popular thing of the moment.

 

[meltingparappa]

There is nothing neutral about this scene. In fact, it encourages the sexualization of Thor as it shows Dennings character eyeing him up afterwards. Not to mention how often Thor's looks are brought up in the media tours and in the movies themselves. It's pandering, Marvel is full of it for both sides. It's how comic books work because they're full of attractive people in amazing shape and it works incredibly well for them.

Worth noting that Thor 2 literally has a scene of a woman groping Thor's chest on the subway played for laughs.

Imagine the same scene with Black Widow in Age of Ultron.

 

[Slayven]

As a general rule, I do agree but Lepore wrote a book about Wonder Woman. This makes her contribution all the more puzzling. She's not a random tumblrer who decided to take a dump on the popular thing of the moment.

That kind of makes it worse, ether she is being willfully disingenuous for the clicks or she been faking the funk.

 

[n00bsauce87]

The funny thing is, Jill Lepore just wrote a book last year about Wonder Woman and what an important feminist milestone her creation was, and how her creator deserves a ton of credit for it:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/28/secret-history-wonder-woman-jill-lepore-observer-review

So... i don't know.

Maybe it's because Marvel have many alpha female superheros as opposed to Wonder Woman being the only most people recognize from DC. The fact that Wonder Woman has to go through just a lot more adversity to be recognized among a group of men and not having the backing like the cover of the A-Team #1 makes Wonder Woman more likable as a feminist icon. Sounded good in my head. Although I'm not gonna pretend that I know Jill's thinking process.

 

[Cybit]

Worth noting that Thor 2 literally has a scene of a woman groping Thor's chest on the subway played for laughs.

Imagine the same scene with Black Widow in Age of Ultron.

Screw Kim Kardashian, that would break the internet. Or at least GAF.

 

[plasmawave]

The word pervy is bigoted? When did that happen? Why?

It happened now.

 

[Cybit]

It happened now.

Gonna go on a limb and say that while the author considers the word "pervy" is bigoted; I doubt the majority of the world (and, in cases of definition, that's a fairly important part of the meaning of a word) would consider it so.

 

[guek]

But there are no Heavies or Super Heavy females.

 

[ReiGun]

That kind of makes it worse, ether she is being willfully disingenuous for the clicks or she been faking the funk.

Apparently, she was far more interested in Marston and his feminist influences and various kinks than Wonder Woman. Of that's the case, it's not surprising she didn't have enough interest in A-Force to properly research it.

 

[Abounder]

Lepore's opinion seems to echo what general people think about comic books. It's why comic books are still not reaching that mainstream level. It is what it is.

Yea the hyper-sexualized HEAVY METAL style will always be a turnoff for some, just like when Rock Paper Shotgun interviewed Blizzard about their own comic-inspired female designs. Even the conservative designs are skintight affairs with boob armor and whatnot. I'm fine with it but I can understand that issue and why girls tend to read non-superhero stuff; even the MCU is mostly dudes over the age of 25 (59% or so).

Yup. That tumblr response is pretty sad and maligned as well. The last paragraph where she basically proclaims that everyone who isn't an established comics geek that attempts to criticize or analyze the medium "don't give a shit" and are just snobby "cultural gatekeepers" is laughable and ironic considering she seems to be the one doing the gatekeeping with regards to who is allowed to be listened to on this matter. This quote makes my blood boil too:



What is this masturbatory crap? "I write a comic about a female superhero, I am obviously without a doubt providing an undeniably nuanced and superior representation of women in the process." Uhhh, no, that's not a universal truth nor is it up to you to decide. And that's the entire point of Lepore's aritcle, which she and most people in this place have missed completely. Yes, there's an increasing number of female superheroes being created in response to the age old entrenched sexism of the medium. That's a great thing, but it absolutely does not mean that every female super hero that is created is inherently a shining beacon of feminist advancement without any possible flaw or problem worth noting. Attempting to point stuff like this out is not "snobbery from gated ivory towers" or whatever other nonsense she is trying to label it as.

Yea reading both of these pieces was a chore especially the tumblr response

 

[Garlador]

But there are no Heavies or Super Heavy females. She Hulk comes the closest and that's mostly because she's really tall.

I beg to differ.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I beg to differ.

Squirrel Girl is average build but not big.

 

[Data West]

I beg to differ.

to be fair, bertha's non-powered form is a super hot model

 

[Slayven]

to be fair, bertha's non-powered form is a super hot model

And with her wealth funds the premiere Midwestern superhero team

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

As in not overweight or obese? Sorry, honest question. I mean, Jubilee, Pixie and Nico Minoru are on that cover; they don't exactly measure up to someone like She-Hulk or Rogue.

I guess male characters at least get divided into two camps: Big bulky brawn (a la The Thing, Hulk or Juggernaut) or tall muscular (a la just about every other male character outside of The Blob).

They all have relatively similar and ideal proportions. I know fit people that don't have narrow waists, and women have different width shoulders. Almost all those women have perfect breasts the same size, a bit of variation, but nobody flat-chested.

The only flat-chested heroine I can think of was Jenny Sparks.

Anyway, men are similarly reduced to a few types, but they have a little more variety in those types.

 

[BKatastrophe]

Yup. That tumblr response is pretty sad and maligned as well. The last paragraph where she basically proclaims that everyone who isn't an established comics geek that attempts to criticize or analyze the medium "don't give a shit" and are just snobby "cultural gatekeepers" is laughable and ironic considering she seems to be the one doing the gatekeeping with regards to who is allowed to be listened to on this matter. This quote makes my blood boil too:



What is this masturbatory crap? "I write a comic about a female superhero, I am obviously without a doubt providing an undeniably nuanced and superior representation of women in the process." Uhhh, no, that's not a universal truth nor is it up to you to decide. And that's the entire point of Lepore's aritcle, which she and most people in this place have missed completely. Yes, there's an increasing number of female superheroes being created in response to the age old entrenched sexism of the medium. That's a great thing, but it absolutely does not mean that every female super hero that is created is inherently a shining beacon of feminist advancement without any possible flaw or problem worth noting. Attempting to point stuff like this out is not "snobbery from gated ivory towers" or whatever other nonsense she is trying to label it as.

This is all just wrong, though. Willow isn't being snobby, she's saying that her an Lepore are trying to achieve the same goal, yet is baffled that Lepore is just taking shots at people trying to achieve that goal, which Willow is. Lepore's opinions are also wild assumptions that are ultimately founded on incorrect nonsense, based on the material she cites (She-Hulk, for instance).

Ms Marvel is great. She really blends the Muslim female youth experience well with superhero fuckery

And writes a mean Wolverine x Storm fanfiction.

Worse thing to happen to comics is the popularity from the movies spurring people who only look at covers to write bullshit clickbait articles about the comics

Preach

Damn it

 

[nicanica]

I did it! Your 'Super heavy female' in Marvel

Ashema the Celestial

Your overweight Marvel Character:

Gertrude Yorkes from Runaways

Spoiler

Fuck I miss how good this comic used to be

 

[excelsiorlef]

Funny enough Wonder Woman shows more skin on the cover of Lepore's WW book than pretty much any of the women on this cover.

 

[Brakke]

Is that an Iron Lady on that cover? Is there a lady version of every super hero? Is there a boy version of every super heroine? I bet Squirrel Boy is a punkass.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Is that an Iron Lady on that cover? Is there a lady version of every super hero? Is there a boy version of every super heroine? I bet Squirrel Boy is a punkass.

It's Rescue (Pepper Potts in a suit maximized to save lives). She's legit and her own person same as say War Machine

 

[Dalek]

Is that an Iron Lady on that cover? Is there a lady version of every super hero? Is there a boy version of every super heroine? I bet Squirrel Boy is a punkass.

You mean Squirrel Earl.

 

[Dalek]

 

[Slayven]

Is that an Iron Lady on that cover? Is there a lady version of every super hero? Is there a boy version of every super heroine? I bet Squirrel Boy is a punkass.

Power Boy, even got the boob window

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

This is so flawed.

 

[jon bones]

This is excellent.

 

[bananas]

This is so flawed.

This is excellent.

This is NeoGAF.

 

[Dalek]

This is NeoGAF.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

This is NeoGAF.

So two people having conflicting opinions on something is a thing that only happens on NeoGAF?

 

[Aureon]

So two people having conflicting opinions on something is a thing that only happens on NeoGAF?

Within a minute, using practically the same wording?

Not really, but it's great!

 

[googleplex]

Eh, people were always doing that. Now people with DEGREES are doing it.



For what it's worth, all of my comic bros and their comic bros tell me that her book is terrible.

The current Wonder Woman run is not so great. But the NU52's Brain Azzarello Wondy was fucking magnificent. Best wonder woman anything in decades.

 

[Princess Carl]

So two people having conflicting opinions on something is a thing that only happens on NeoGAF?

It's more that they are right after another in comedic fashion, Mr...

 

[googleplex]

This is so flawed.

Actually it's pretty much on point.

 

[Kinyou]

This is so flawed.

This is excellent.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Her article is a very crisp demonstration of the difference between criticism from within the community–criticism from people who love comics and want to see them succeed–and criticism from the self-appointed gatekeepers of art and culture, who categorically do not give a shit.

God damn, this is amazing. Nice response.

No, I would wager the impenetrable and intimidating continuity and canon of comics is why they're not reaching mainstream level. I love comics, but they can be crazy intimidating to get into.

You either catch a #1 issue (even then, no guarantees) or you're completely screwed without doing research into your character or book of choice to figure out what's going on. Heaven help you if you pick up part of an event comic by mistake.

You're not kidding, I want to get into comics, but they barely arrive to my country, so I pretty much miss a huge chunk of things, so what's the point? I end up getting things like The Killing Joke, where it's pretty contained.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

God damn, this is amazing. Nice response.



You're not kidding, I want to get into comics, but they barely arrive to my country, so I pretty much miss a huge chunk of things, so what's the point? I end up getting things like The Killing Joke, where it's pretty contained.

Is Marvel Unlimited available in your country? If you don't mind reading digitally it has a huge library of titles spanning decades.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Modonna?

 

[Cipherr]

That kind of makes it worse, ether she is being willfully disingenuous for the clicks or she been faking the funk.

Exactly.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Actually it's pretty much on point.

So we gonna ignore comics that had her even when Teen Titans was on?

 

[Dalek]

So we gonna ignore comics that had her even when Teen Titans was on?

Wow. Way to miss the point.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Wow. Way to miss the point.

The point was terrible and flawed in the first place. There are other animated shows and movies that depict female super heroes in a positive light and comics that do the same with the characters, like Black Widows series right now. It's taking one good example and implies that that's the case for the entire industry.

Not to mention that the comic totally ignores the fact that this isn't an issue for male comic book characters, yet comic books don't see a significant long term boost in sales for those characters either.