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[NeverYouMind]

Sounded like you never even played the mission mode in SC on the DC, but if want people want to talk about the lack of depth of VF on the Saturn compared to the depth of Tekken on the PS1 for early Vs fighters, then all I was doing was the same for the DC and PS2 early Vs fighters. I couldn't careless myself and play a fighter for the fighting, not the extras or mini games

X-men: COTA is to this day my fav fighting game, even if the home version was basic port in terms of content.

I do not get Soul Calibur 1's notoriety after playing it for many hours. It is really odd in the sense that there is no real way to be certain an attack lands. I have had more fun just blasting through arcade or survival in it than I ever did with the mission mode. In contrast, Tekken Tag builds on what worked in Tekken 3 and makes it better. The Tekken Bowl mode is just a fun mini game to play with others that are not into fighting games. The best fighters released on the Dreamcast that I have played in other formats are Fighting Vipers 2, Project Justice, Dead or Alive 2, Guilty Gear X, and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. I cannot take Virtua Fighter 3 on Dreamcast seriously since it does not even feature 2 player. I enjoyed the arcade version though.

As for Tekken vs Virtua Fighter... Tekken 1 is awful while Virtua Fighter 1 is amazing. Tekken 2 is pretty and Virtua Fighter 2 is pretty but they both play poorly. Tekken 3 is amazing and Virtua Fighter 3 is amazing. Tekken 4 is pretty and Virtua Fighter 4 is generic but they both play amazing. Tekken 5 is cool but shit balancing, Korean backdash shenanigans, and high crush hop kick spam make it lame while Virtua Fighter 5 is a generation ahead.

I am not a comics fan so Children of the Atom having Silver Samurai, Omega Red, Spiral, and Psylocke instead of Gambit, Sabretooth, and Rogue like X-Men vs Street Fighter was wack when I got around to playing it.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

cireza Alexios

What is the reason for Saturn not being able to run driving games that have a combination of multiple cars on screen with shading/lighting and smooth frame rates like the below.

These 3 games released in 1997, months before Saturn was discontinued and over a year before Dreamcast.

Two of them released before Sega Touring Car

 

[nkarafo]

Yeah i think that's the one. Although the players are funny looking and angular, it gives me a Virtua Striker vibe. And the 60fps update doesn't hurt either.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

cireza Alexios

Do you think Saturn would be able to run this had it survived in 1999, complete with the lighting, draw distance and detail?

 

[Parazels]

What was the most technically advanced soccer game of that generation?

This is football?

 

[Team Andromeda]

Yeah i think that's the one. Although the players are funny looking and angular, it gives me a Virtua Striker vibe. And the 60fps update doesn't hurt either.

The ball is too big & makes the game look odd., but graphically the game looks amazing, run in semi-high res mode and is smooth as butter

 

[cireza]

Last Bronx

Well that's certainly a top contender on Saturn. Dead or Alive has better character models though. Zero Divide has more 3D elements in the background I think.

 

[Team Andromeda]

I do not get Soul Calibur 1's notoriety after playing it for many hours. It is really odd in the sense that there is no real way to be certain an attack lands. I have had more fun just blasting through arcade or survival in it than I ever did with the mission mode. In contrast, Tekken Tag builds on what worked in Tekken 3 and makes it better. The Tekken Bowl mode is just a fun mini game to play with others that are not into fighting games. The best fighters released on the Dreamcast that I have played in other formats are Fighting Vipers 2, Project Justice, Dead or Alive 2, Guilty Gear X, and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. I cannot take Virtua Fighter 3 on Dreamcast seriously since it does not even feature 2 player. I enjoyed the arcade version though.

As for Tekken vs Virtua Fighter... Tekken 1 is awful while Virtua Fighter 1 is amazing. Tekken 2 is pretty and Virtua Fighter 2 is pretty but they both play poorly. Tekken 3 is amazing and Virtua Fighter 3 is amazing. Tekken 4 is pretty and Virtua Fighter 4 is generic but they both play amazing. Tekken 5 is cool but shit balancing, Korean backdash shenanigans, and high crush hop kick spam make it lame while Virtua Fighter 5 is a generation ahead.

I am not a comics fan so Children of the Atom having Silver Samurai, Omega Red, Spiral, and Psylocke instead of Gambit, Sabretooth, and Rogue like X-Men vs Street Fighter was wack when I got around to playing it.

Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm the biggest SC fan.

My point was I saw some here go on about the lack of depth and content in VF to Tekken for early launch fighters on the respective systems in the USA. Which game had the more content for their USA launch on the DC and PS2, SC or Tekken Tag?

Like I said my fav 3D fighter was Last Bronx, but for me my fav fighting game of all time was and still is.. X-Men: COTA

 

[cireza]

Do you think Saturn would be able to run this had it survived in 1999, complete with the lighting, draw distance and detail?

Nope. I doubt it. The console was just not going to push that amount of polygons + dynamic lighting in my opinion.

Still difficult to be certain in the end. One of the later Saturn racer is Initial D, it is very smooth, has very good lighting.

 

[nkarafo]

What was the most technically advanced soccer game of that generation?

For me overall it's this



It has everything, good graphics, great looking models, probably the best animation in a football game then, the best looking stadiums, lots of effects, good frame rate, etc.

It even has a lot of extra models such as referees, crew at the sides with their little flags, some spectators sticking out, etc.

 

[NeverYouMind]

The ball is too big & makes the game look odd., but graphically the game looks amazing, run in semi-high res mode and is smooth as butter

Maybe it isn't the ball that is too big but the players being too diminutive.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

What was the most technically advanced soccer game of that generation?

This is football?

This…



Impressive stadiums and player models, lacks FIFA's player lighting though.

 

[Team Andromeda]

Well that's certainly a top contender on Saturn. Dead or Alive has better character models though. Zero Divide has more 3D elements in the background I think.

The multi-layered scaling background, VDP2 celling's along with Mode2 like polygons in high res at 60 FPS even with motion blur on the weapons, wins it for me

While the game was crap, D-Xhird had some really nice graphics
[h3][/h3]

 

[Parazels]

While the game was crap, D-Xhird had some really nice graphics

Looks like crap, like Toshinden

 

[Team Andromeda]

This…



Impressive stadiums and player models, lacks FIFA's player lighting though.

This is better IMO







while I loved This Is Football on the PS2, on the PS1 it was too slow and laggy

 

[Team Andromeda]

Looks like crap, like Toshinden

Its plays like crap, like Toshiden Graphically it is doing some nice stuff

This game doesn't get enough credit for its looks, ok it was just one background, but it looked awesome

 

[Team Andromeda]

Maybe it isn't the ball that is too big but the players being too diminutive.

It's the ball mate it looks all wrong given the perspective of the stadium and players.
I didn't need fancy words to see that, when I 1st got it on import back in the day

 

[Kyo]

I cannot take Virtua Fighter 3 on Dreamcast seriously since it does not even feature 2 player. I enjoyed the arcade version though.

PAL and US editions of VF3 had a regular Versus Mode, it's just the early Japanese version that didn't. A second player can still join in in Arcade Mode, mind you, but this has the downside that the winner can't change fighters until they lose a match, which was quite annoying.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Nope. I doubt it. The console was just not going to push that amount of polygons + dynamic lighting in my opinion.

Still difficult to be certain in the end. One of the later Saturn racer is Initial D, it is very smooth, has very good lighting.

Appreciate the effort in finding this, am I right in thinking only 2 cars?

My point was that those 1997 PS1 games are combining lighting + detailed tracks + many cars + smooth frame rates.

It's the combination of these elements that made them so impressive. Especially as a Saturn owner with Sega Rally, Daytona CCE and an awful Sega Touring Car demo.

 

[NeverYouMind]

PAL and US editions of VF3 had a regular Versus Mode, it's just the early Japanese version that didn't. You can still join in in Arcade Mode, mind you, but this has the downside that the winner can't change fighters until they lose a match, which was quite annoying.

Never owned a Dreamcast so I did not know that. I have only owned ports from the system as stated earlier.

 

[cireza]

Appreciate the effort in finding this, am I right in thinking only 2 cars?

Yes, that's Initial D so these are duels on mountain roads. I strongly recommend the anime.

We do have a few Saturn racing games on Saturn being smooth, having a decent amount of polygons and even cars/traffic, but we don't get dynamic lighting on top (Shutokou 97, Touge 2). We did get dynamic lighting in other 3D games though... so who knows.

I don't think there is a huge counter-argument to be made about the PS1 being able to push full 3D games better than Saturn. Most people tend to agree. We can say several things at once without them contradicting each other.

You can be sure that Saturn games, even 3D, would have improved in 1998 and 1999 if the console was properly supported. I don't think it had hit a ceiling yet.
It most probably would have not been able to reach the heights of PS1 in full 3D games though.
Transparency would have been shit on 3D assets till the end and there's nothing you can do about it.
All games don't require to be full 3D either. Many of the best Saturn games don't push 100% 3D pixels on screen, but this is also true for PS1.

 

[RoboFu]

cireza Alexios

What is the reason for Saturn not being able to run driving games that have a combination of multiple cars on screen with shading/lighting and smooth frame rates like the below.

These 3 games released in 1997, months before Saturn was discontinued and over a year before Dreamcast.

Two of them released before Sega Touring Car

sega saturn was discontinued in march of 1998 that doesn't mean development wasn't slowed to stop well before.

the first 2 ridge racers didn't have shading and lighting. that special version that came with RR type 4 did.

Sega rally was closer to playstation initial racers than Daytona was. Daytona could have 20 cars at once. ridge racer only had 6. GT only 6.

But the whole thing we have been saying in this thread is . WE DO NOT THINK THE SATURN WOULD HAVE OUT DONE THE PSX BUT WE ARE SURE IT COULD DO MORE THAN IT'S SHORT LIFE SHOWED IF IT HAD THE SAME AMOUNT AND TIME AND EFFORT PUT IN.

but anyway to answer your question: from Jaleco of all people.



initial D:


Touge King of Spirits 2:


technically sonic r was a late racing game with a lot of shading and cool stuff going as well.



One interesting tidbit bit is the Sega Saturn could not do environmental mapping in hardware back in the day. it wasn't set up with texture coordinates like the playstation or modern gpus. Some games did have it using software methods but it was very performance heavy.
But some home brew devs have figured out a way to get it in hardware.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

but anyway to answer your question: from Jaleco of all people.

The frame rate is appalling though, it makes it near unplayable as this review points out

I happen to think the cars look nice though.

 

[RoboFu]

The frame rate is appalling though, it makes it near unplayable as this review points out

I happen to think the cars look nice though.

its from Jaleco not the best dev but it was the latest one released in 1998 which just shows even Jaleco could do better than most that late in the game, and why did you hand pick that one and cut out the others?

 

[Kyo]

If you want to say the only console that was was around in 1997 was the Saturn and how you were oblivious to other consoles, then its Pal output would be the best, since it's going up against nothing other than your PC.

Just stop with your silly system war framing. I don't need to compare anything to the PlayStation or N64 releases at the time to find Sega's output in '97 disappointing. It was disappointing compared to what we got on Saturn in the year or year and a half before that! Sega went from putting out games that were cutting edge at the time (VF2, Rally, Virtua Cop...) or unique and innovative like Nights and Panzer Dragoon Zwei to uninspired sequels, lackluster conversions lacking in content and outsourced mediocrities. Their few late Saturn releases in '98 showed that they still had it in them, but there was a very problematic gap in fresh quality titles from them between early '97 and the spring of '98, when PD Saga and Burning Rangers finally came out.

And yeah, if you didn't import anything, a handful of belated PAL releases of '96 hits from Japan and the US were still very much worth playing, but I still remember what that also meant: Instead of having Sega magazines full of new games, we'd be getting early previews, previews based on the import version (or outright import reviews), sometimes yet another preview before the PAL release and then finally the PAL review. Everything was milked to the max because there was a lack of good and truly fresh PAL releases in '97.

Again, silly that. It's like saying who needs KOF 96 when one had KOF 95

And why would you act like that isn't a legitimate question? I did buy KOF '96 despite owning '95 because I liked the new artwork and the gameplay changes, plus the arranged soundtrack was a huge upgrade over the chip tunes of '95. But it wasn't all better - the audio got worse without the ROM cart. And so when '97 came around, I asked myself once again "Do I need this?" and then the answer was "No", because the changes didn't interest me and there was no real sense of progress. I also skipped Street Fighter Alpha 2 because I already owned the first one.

"Who really needs the latest edition of fighting series X?" was a type of question often asked by reviewers and players at the time, and the games that didn't exhibit sufficient upgrades or new ideas were rightly criticized for being more of the same. Somewhere in the line of releases that included Virtua Fighter, Virtua Fighter Remix, Virtua Fighter 2, Virtua Fighter Kids, Fighting Vipers and Fighters Megamix, people were asking themselves that question, too - justifiedly.

Clearly many people bought a Saturn to play Capcom or SNK conversions. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and say just about nobody bought a Saturn in '98 to play The King of Fighters '97.

or why the need for rally cars and tracks in GT 2 when you already had rally games

As you like to say: "silly that". Rally cars or whatever can be welcome when they offer something either fresh or significantly better than before. Sega Touring Car didn't do any of that. Bug Too didn't do any of that. Worldwide Soccer '98 didn't do any of that, if I remember correctly.

Plenty of people buy classic conversions of games

We've just been over this at length. People in '97 weren't being motivated to buy a new console by 2D games. This goes double if the games were just straight conversions of Mega Drive games that were still rather fresh in their minds. Many people still had the original games and the machine to play them! We're talking about the people who were anxiously waiting for a new Sonic game, after all.

Fine and I could say the same when people like your chum RetroGaming who bring up games like Tomb Raider, F1, GTA, Quake 2 and all that. One could just say I couldn't carless about Colin McRae, F1, TOCCA, FF7, MGS , Quake 2 Ect,ect on the PS1. I'll play them on the PC and with the PC, have by far the best version of Quake 1 and 2 the Tomb Raiders and also the best F1 game ever made with Geoff's F1 GP2 and a better port of F1 97 with more features...

The difference being that a PlayStation (or a Saturn) were suited just fine to playing Tomb Raider, GTA or those racing games. A console with a digital controller, on the other hand, wasn't ideal for controlling a modern first person shooter where you were using the mouse for looking up and down to aim.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

its from Jaleco not the best dev but it was the latest one released in 1998 which just shows even Jaleco could do better than most that late in the game, and why did you hand pick that one and cut out the others?

I follow his channel and he reviewed it only a week ago.

Was interested when I saw screenshots, the video more than put me off though.

 

[Alexios]

cireza Alexios

cireza Alexios

Seriously, has a single person claimed PS2 was more powerful than Xbox here?

Idk what your beef is, or why you direct such posts at me or in general to folks saying good things about Saturn games here. Not once have I said or implied Saturn is as/more powerful as/than PS so why do you want me to reiterate something as widely known as that by re-re-re-re-repeating that, no, obviously Saturn can't have Gran Turismo and RR4? All I've done here is post examples of good Saturn games that look and run and play good for their era or even now, whether they visually or technically top the grandest PS/N64 example (or version) or not and whether they use real polygons for everything or mix in sprites and voxels and VDP2 backgrounds and ground and floors and skies and effects and whatever else you somehow deem as not counting but hey it's all part of games that are all cool in their own way.

Also that plenty great PS games wouldn't top those same greatest PS examples or how certain grand PS games also exhibit issues you've completely trashed Saturn games/ports for or how there's no need to post hyperbole about things like Wipeout 3 having no pop in when it does or how Tenka has no framedrops throughout when it does that you keep doing in your effort to stress Saturn and its games/ports are trash. Now you keep harping on about STCC like that's the pinnacle of Saturn racing games or Saturn graphics or something and pit it against the very best on PlayStation just because I pointed out you've praised TOCA (1) which also has serious performance issues, ie you're very inconsistent with what you find acceptable and what trash based on if it's on a Saturn game or not.

Tl;dr, if you can play TOCA and Syphon Filter on PS and Perfect Dark and OoT on N64, you can enjoy games like Tomb Raider and Resident Evil and Wipeout XL which were great to have on Saturn even if not their best iteration. And yes, Saturn has shown better graphics and performance than STCC in games like Hang-On GP, Sega Rally, Manx TT, Touge 2 and tons of others we've posted here and it could have shown even better had it lived on and no, obviously none of that means it can do Gran Turismo just because I think a Touge 3 would have improved further as 2 did from 1. I don't pretend objective points like you keep accusing people you disagree with of higher tolerance to shit tier gameplay/graphics or whatever just because they don't find sprites in 32bit 3D games to be an abomination or less technically sound choices for the era or giving Saturn an unfair advantage you can't abide with when they also give PS an advantage as it doesn't have to render many polygons but just one per character and can put that to other uses etc., just like racing games will have billboard trees rather than waste polygons for 3D models.

Idk man you're all over the place and make no sense most of the time, now this post is all over the place too.

 

[Kyo]

I don't think there is a huge counter-argument to be made about the PS1 being able to push full 3D games better than Saturn. Most people tend to agree. We can say several things at once without them contradicting each other.

You can be sure that Saturn games, even 3D, would have improved in 1998 and 1999 if the console was properly supported. I don't think it had hit a ceiling yet.

Yeah, I think that is fair to say. You can see in the few late titles like Burning Rangers (and also Sonic R) with their transparency trickery that developers were finding new ways to improve the quality of the 3D visuals. Which just makes it even sadder that Sega outsourced some of their titles to less experienced teams. I would've loved to see a truly cutting-edge version of The House of the Dead instead of the ugly version we got from Tantalus (allegedly released in an unfinished state), for example. The setting with its limited-size locations is a better fit for the Saturn's capabilities than a free-roaming 3D adventure, after all.

It most probably would have not been able to reach the heights of PS1 in full 3D games though.
All games don't require to be full 3D either. Many of the best Saturn games don't push 100% 3D pixels on screen, but this is also true for PS1.

The thing is, there were plenty of impressive titles skillfully mixing 2D and 3D elements in the last year or two of the system. Thunder Force V (better than the later PlayStation port) and Radiant Silvergun look fantastic and have a distinct Saturn flair to them for the technical solutions they used. And let's not forget Panzer Dragoon Zwei, which probably remained a high water mark for the way it utilized the hardware. I just wish there had been more in '97.

 

[nkarafo]

Is there a complete list of Saturn racing games? Including every obscure Japanese only title that might exist?

Edit: Is that missing anything?

 

[NeverYouMind]

Which game had the more content for their USA launch on the DC and PS2, SC or Tekken Tag?

I would argue Tekken Tag Tournament as there are more endings and ways to replay with large roster. Playing Unknown in singles modes with random toggle switch movesets in the game is by itself more combat variety than offered in Soul Calibur 1. Soul Calibur 1 not having unlockable weapons (unlike rest of series) is lame and weak AI opponents make Mission Mode feel dull. Many of those missions are only single round battles as well.

 

[Crayon]

PS2 was worth the effort from a business perspective, doesn't make the hardware less shit.

Nah I was going to say the same thing. The saturn maybe have been easier than the ps2 but still even the games that really wrang it out were just barely keeping up with playstation year for year.

On ps2, there was a massive gulf between the most basic games and the games that really took advantage of it. Right from launch day, tekken, rrv, and ssx were showing what's up. The weakest launch games like... damn what was the name of that one. Evergrace? Adventure/rpg? The weakest games presumably with the least technical knowledge or budget behind them, looked sub-dreamcast. The DOA hardcore on ps2 looked quite a bit worse than dreamcast. But Tekken was clearly a jump over what dreamcast could do.

But tech was evolving crazy fast. The ps2 was a year later AND a lot more expensive than the dreamcast. Sure, on top of that there is the fact that the ttt arcade>ps2 glowup compared to the dreamcast soul calibur one had way more resources behind it. Those are two games that came from same (or similar?) hardware from the arcade. However many resources though, namco would not have been able to get those ttt graphics on dc.

So maybe ps2 was a bitch to work with but a lot of it was down to libraries and documentation early on. Note I only cited launch games.

 

[Alexios]

But Tekken was clearly a jump over what dreamcast could do.

I don't think TTT looks a jump over DOA2 (other than Namco's excellence in design etc.). A natural iteration from 32 bit (ish) development to SC getting the next gen treatment on DC & TTT later getting the same treatment using that experience and likely more budget & time (hence all the FMV).

 

[Crayon]

Tekken 2 is pretty and Virtua Fighter 2 is pretty but they both play poorly.

VF2 plays fuckin PERFECT. It's way different from other fighters though and the ai in single player is an absolute travesty. I should really go back and play the ai learning mode because I can't remember it well. But the arcade ai behavior is burned in my brain and not in a good way.

But if you get someone to play with and some practice in, I think it's flawless and blows tekken 2 out of the water.

 

[Crayon]

edit: fixed!

 

[Kyo]

I really have no idea where he's getting the idea that VF2 plays worse than VF1. It's such a direct successor in terms of controls and feel, just with the bonus of 60 fps.

 

[Crayon]

Like I said my fav 3D fighter was Last Bronx, but for me my fav fighting game of all time was and still is.. X-Men: COTA

I got to look up a guide or something in last bronx. I like explring fighting game systems manually, bt I could neverr figure much out in that game.

Its plays like crap, like Toshiden Graphically it is doing some nice stuff

This game doesn't get enough credit for its looks, ok it was just one background, but it looked awesome

That game looks dope!!!

Clearly many people bought a Saturn to play Capcom or SNK conversions. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and say just about nobody bought a Saturn in '98 to play The King of Fighters '97.

Idk, kof was pretty big in some parts of the world. Pretty sure mexico, south america and china. Maybe others.

I don't think TTT looks a jump over DOA2 (other than Namco's excellence in design etc.). A natural iteration from 32 bit (ish) development to SC getting the next gen treatment on DC & TTT later getting the same treatment using that experience and likely more budget & time (hence all the FMV).

Looking between the two and i'd call it a pretty big difference. Or maybe on the borderline of a big difference if that makes any sense. There more polgons in the character but lot more going on with the backgrounds. ttt somehow doesnt jump off the screen for some reason, though. It's going back and looking at it many years later that I was really impressed. The image quality in particular was awesome as so many ps2 games right to the end looked ragged. A much higher percentage of them than dreamcast wich have nice fast antialiasing.

 

[Kyo]

The image quality in particular was awesome as so many ps2 games right to the end looked ragged.

The Japanese edition of TTT was still a flickerfest like Ridge Racer V. They got the image quality fixed for the US and PAL release.

It's a shame RRV never got the same treatment, as it's my favorite RR gameplay-wise.

 

[NeverYouMind]

VF2 plays fuckin PERFECT. It's way different from other fighters though and the ai in single player is an absolute travesty. I should really go back and play the ai learning mode because I can't remember it well. But the arcade ai behavior is burned in my brain and not in a good way.

But if you get someone to play with and some practice in, I think it's flawless and blows tekken 2 out of the water.

I really have no idea where he's getting the idea that VF2 plays worse than VF1. It's such a direct successor in terms of controls and feel, just with the bonus of 60 fps.

 

[Crayon]

Hey that p~k~g can cramp your hand.

So it's balanced.

 

[Alexios]

Looking between the two and i'd call it a pretty big difference. Or maybe on the borderline of a big difference if that makes any sense. There more polgons in the character but lot more going on with the backgrounds.

Idk whar you mean, DOA2 characters have more polygons than TTT's (8-9k vs 7k or less, which is still quite a bit higher than SC mind - and Namco still thought that's overkill and reduced it for later games, heh) and (some of, others are simple, obviously design varies) the arenas are complex multilayered and interactive. Yeah TTT has some great effects and some of the stages have cool things like background characters going about or spectating but I don't think that makes it a jump all things told, just a different style really. It's the various specular and material effects that are more impressive and, again, Namco's excellence in design, everything's just cooler and edgier.