My analysis of Saturn's failure

People talk about the launch, but I think Christmas 1996 was also pivotal. Both consoles were similarly priced and in terms of recent exclusives…

PlayStation had Resident Evil, Crash Bandicoot, WipEout 2097, Tekken 2, Formula 1 and a vastly superior port of Tomb Raider

Saturn had NiGHTS, Fighting Vipers, Daytona CCE, Virtua Cop 2 and Worldwide Soccer

The PlayStation lineup resonated with the bulk of customers, the Saturn one didn't.

In the UK the N64 had been delayed until March so Crash Bandicoot really stood out, that video meme of the 2 kids unwrapping a box on Christmas morning and shouting "Nintendo Sixty Fooouuurrr", here in Britain they were unboxing a PlayStation with Crash Bandicoot (complete with bad teeth) instead.
 
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Saturn was dead in the west by then, Grandia wouldn't have moved the needle
No, but it would a decent number in the West on the back of FF 7 hype and also showed Saturn users SEGA cared and would back then with top quality software, when trying to have people ready to move on to the DC.

SOA were twats and then to upset Working Designs over E3 funding for a booth beyond pathetic and needless, but that was Bernie for you ...

WD would have brought Grandia over I've no doubt along with Gun Griffion 2 and also have a number of Saturn titles signed up to be translated including the likes of Lunar, Battle Garraga, Thunder Force V.

I wouldn't have put it pass WD to have brought Prince Crown over too
 
Having actually never played the Saturn, I can just recall from my experience in 1995 that all of my friends had the PS1. We were all Nintendo fans but the N64 kept us waiting.
PS1 was cheaper as well. In Germany, 599 DM vs 750 DM for the Saturn.
Saturn was branded weaker in video game magazines, especially because of the missing transparency.
 
No, but it would a decent number in the West on the back of FF 7 hype and also showed Saturn users SEGA cared and would back then with top quality software, when trying to have people ready to move on to the DC.

SOA were twats and then to upset Working Designs over E3 funding for a booth beyond pathetic and needless, but that was Bernie for you ...

WD would have brought Grandia over I've no doubt along with Gun Griffion 2 and also have a number of Saturn titles signed up to be translated including the likes of Lunar, Battle Garraga, Thunder Force V.

I wouldn't have put it pass WD to have brought Prince Crown over too

I don't think that combination would have appealed much outside of hardcore Saturn fans.

Again like Christmas 1996 PlayStation had a lineup of heavy hitters like Tomb Raider II, Final Fantasy VII, Crash Bandicoot 2 and Formula 1 97.

Sega's late 97 lineup was lacklustre and really lacking mainstream appeal. There was a good port of Quake, but anyone wanting a console for FPS games went for an N64 with Goldeneye (and Quake).
 
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I don't think that combination would have appealed much outside of hardcore Saturn fans.

Again like Christmas 1996 PlayStation had a lineup of heavy hitters like Tomb Raider II, Final Fantasy VII, Crash Bandicoot 2 and Formula 1 97.

Sega's late 97 lineup was lacklustre and really lacking mainstream appeal. There was a good port of Quake, but anyone wanting a console for FPS games went for an N64 with Goldeneye (and Quake).
I'm not about taking sales away/from PS1.

I'm on about on the back of FF 7 and with SEGA pushing Grandia as Saturn's FF7 killer it would have sold 100, 000 or more in the West IMO on Saturn. In just the same way Killzone sold a few copies on the back of a Halo killer.

Given the DC wasn't meant to come out untill Late 1999 it was silly from SOA not to look to bring some of the better 3rd party titles out for Saturn during 1998.

Some like Gun Griffion 2, Dead Or Alive, would have been simple translation jobs too
 
Sony's UK success was all the more ironic seeing as all their press and advertising was done using the "playbook" Sega created during the Master System and Megadrive days.

It also helped that the UK gaming press were on Sony's cock like a moth to a flame back in those days....again, advertising department driven.
 
I'm not about taking sales away/from PS1.

I'm on about on the back of FF 7 and with SEGA pushing Grandia as Saturn's FF7 killer it would have sold 100, 000 or more in the West IMO on Saturn. In just the same way Killzone sold a few copies on the back of a Halo killer.

Given the DC wasn't meant to come out untill Late 1999 it was silly from SOA not to look to bring some of the better 3rd party titles out for Saturn during 1998.

Some like Gun Griffion 2, Dead Or Alive, would have been simple translation jobs too

Good points.

I recall showing off Sonic Adventure and Soul Calibur to friends back in the day. They were all very impressed but whenever I raised the possibility of them buying a Dreamcast the response was always along the lines of "nah, they'll just abandon it like they did with Saturn".

These people didn't really follow gaming business or news, but Sega having zero retail presence between September 1998 to October 1999 really damaged the general public's perception of Sega.

Arcades were closing left right and centre by 1999 so they didn't have the brand exposure there either. I often had people ask if it still said "SEGAAAAA" at the beginning of the games because to them Sega was just the MegaDrive they had as kids.

For you Americans here Sega dominated the 3rd and 4th gen in UK and Europe, Alex Kidd on Master System was way more popular than Mario. That's how far the brand fell here.
 
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Sony's UK success was all the more ironic seeing as all their press and advertising was done using the "playbook" Sega created during the Master System and Megadrive days.

It also helped that the UK gaming press were on Sony's cock like a moth to a flame back in those days....again, advertising department driven.

Sega had a better image with teens than the kid friendly Nintendo and this was quite intentional.

Sony took it to a whole other level with their heavy use of marketing in nightclubs and lads mags.

 
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We've reached the climax.

We've all been skilled at pointing out mistakes, now please point out solutions.


Here's the solution:

Virtua Fighter 1 nice
Astal and Shinobi X are replaced Shinobi Art of Vengeance (aaa 2d game)

Rad Mobile, Golden Axe the duel canceled
Panzer Dragoon and Daytona USA cease to exist as 1995 games
Virtua Fighter Remix canceled

Guardian Heroes, June 1995

Need for Speed Clone for November 1995, with many levels and many hours of gameplay.
Clockworknight is replaced by Disney Anthology, a collection with a 2.5D hub that would give access to 5 Disney games.
Pandemonium Magical Hoppers clone would be Sonic Saturn for September 1995, killer app.
Escape From Monster Manor clone for November 1995

With these changes, Sega would be in a much better situation, the price of the Saturn would be a problem as it could not be cut before 1996, so Sonic would be in the bundle.
 
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For you Americans here Sega dominated the 3rd and 5th gen, in UK and Europe, Alex Kidd on Master System was way more popular than Mario. That's how far the brand fell here.
What are 3rd and 5th gen? I can never understand those numbers.

I had a brief stint as a games buyer in an HMV shop around 1996-ish, and while the Mega Drive was long gone from the shelves, the SNES had an amazingly long tail and was still shifting games in small numbers. I would order things like Yoshi's Island and various Squaresoft RPGs and they would always sell, even though they were much more expensive than Playstation games.

Saturn was never very popular. I remember having a box of Christmas Nights discs in cardboard sleeves that I kept under the counter and gave away to Saturn customers. Took a while to empty the box.
 
What are 3rd and 5th gen? I can never understand those numbers.

I had a brief stint as a games buyer in an HMV shop around 1996-ish, and while the Mega Drive was long gone from the shelves, the SNES had an amazingly long tail and was still shifting games in small numbers. I would order things like Yoshi's Island and various Squaresoft RPGs and they would always sell, even though they were much more expensive than Playstation games.

Saturn was never very popular. I remember having a box of Christmas Nights discs in cardboard sleeves that I kept under the counter and gave away to Saturn customers. Took a while to empty the box.

It took a while for Nintendo to get going in the UK, I'd say it was Street Fighter 2 that started the ball rolling for them.

As for HMV and Saturn, it was one of the few shops I could play a Saturn demo pod to sample games (Sega weren't great when it came to demo disc frequency or content) and once N64 came out my local HMV dropped Saturn entirely.

That Christmas Nights disc was wonderful though, it's been a permanent Christmas Eve family in my home for decades now.
 
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Creative Cat Productions did a Saturn video a bit ago that's worth a watch IMO, tho I don't 100% agree with how they did the random Japanese game picks to make that particular point. Also he clearly doesn't care much for NiGHTS or Panzer Dragoon, but his opinion on those is probably actually in line with what most normal folks who tried them at kiosks back in the day, felt about those games too.



Definitely worth a watch.


Initially he comes across as obnoxious but in the end it's hard to disagree.

- I loved NiGHTS, but I can see why most people were put off. Yes the graphics were flickery, but the boss stages which rely more on VDP2 look great

- Panzer Dragoon Zwei, yeah I can agree the gameplay is meh. For me it was all about the art style and music, the game has a unique atmosphere

- Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally, he whittles it down to these being the only 2 essential games. I always used these 2 games to argue in Saturn's favour back in 1996 and it wasn't until 1998 before anything on PlayStation matched them in terms of fighting and driving
 
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It took a while for Nintendo to get going in the UK, I'd say it was Street Fighter 2 that started the ball rolling for them.

As for HMV and Saturn, it was one of the few shops I could play a Saturn demo pod to sample games (Sega weren't great when it came to demo disc frequency or content) and once N64 came out my local HMV dropped Saturn entirely.

That Christmas Nights disc was wonderful though, it's been a permanent Christmas Eve family in my home for decades now.
Yeah, they didn't stock the SNES console when I worked there, but you could always shift one or two copies of £60+ SNES games every week, with a 50% retail markup. Still, after a while they told me it wasn't worth the shelf space.

Eventually the games department became 90% Playstation. They did have an N64 demo pod around the UK launch, and the Japanese import N64 was available to order for around £700-800 before that, but nobody ever went for that option.

Saturn was just crowded out by more exciting things. There was never any buzz around it, whereas the people who would listen to the latest white label vinyl on the DJ decks were also buying Playstations.
 
Saturn was just crowded out by more exciting things. There was never any buzz around it, whereas the people who would listen to the latest white label vinyl on the DJ decks were also buying Playstations.
This is why I think that, even if Sega didn't make the mistakes they did, the next few years would have played out basically the same. Like maybe the Saturn sells more but in the end the PSX is still the dominant console. People always talk about the lack of a good Sonic, and it's legit, but the market was moving away from animal mascots. I know Crash exists, and people like it, and it did sell systems, but it wasn't the same. The teenagers and young adults that was the core of the market at that point wasn't looking for an animal mascot.
 
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Good points.

I recall showing off Sonic Adventure and Soul Calibur to friends back in the day. They were all very impressed but whenever I raised the possibility of them buying a Dreamcast the response was always along the lines of "nah, they'll just abandon it like they did with Saturn".

These people didn't really follow gaming business or news, but Sega having zero retail presence between September 1998 to October 1999 really damaged the general public's perception of Sega.

Arcades were closing left right and centre by 1999 so they didn't have the brand exposure there either. I often had people ask if it still said "SEGAAAAA" at the beginning of the games because to them Sega was just the MegaDrive they had as kids.

For you Americans here Sega dominated the 3rd and 4th gen in UK and Europe, Alex Kidd on Master System was way more popular than Mario. That's how far the brand fell here.

That's was part of the trouble , it was up to SEGA to support those who spent big on a Saturn and not tell to to piss off, we don't care go out and buy a PS 1 or N64.

This is not a dig at the USA but it's never been a place big on import gaming or a place where people liked foreign language. I learnt that from Kung Fu films back in the day .

So many people people who piss on the Saturn never imported a game in their lives or maybe 2 at best.

If people had seen more of what Saturn was doing in Japan in 97 their opinion of the system would be different., but it was Japan only and loads of Japanese text and speech, which would put so many people off In the USA back then, even if they had a Saturn.

It's like how so many of the PC-Eng CD Rom gems was Japan only ...
 
If people had seen more of what Saturn was doing in Japan in 97 their opinion of the system would be different., but it was Japan only and loads of Japanese text and speech, which would put so many people off In the USA back then, even if they had a Saturn.

As much flack as Bernie Stolar gets he was right about 2D games, people just weren't buying them in the west.

Capcom's fighters, Guardian Heroes and Saturn Bomberman flopped in the west and likewise Symphony of the Night barely sold on PlayStation. Street Fighter 3 was almost completely ignored in western arcades too. By 1996 everyone wanted those "futuristic" 3D games, it's what the vast majority of people bought the next-gen consoles for.

I think Donkey Kong Country 2 (Christmas 95) was the last 2D game that sold well before the west almost unanimously swore off them for a decade.
 
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This is why I think that, even if Sega didn't make the mistakes they did, the next few years would have played out basically the same. Like maybe the Saturn sells more but in the end the PSX is still the dominant console. People always talk about the lack of a good Sonic, and it's legit, but the market was moving away from animal mascots. I know Crash exists, and people like it, and it did sell systems, but it wasn't the same. The teenagers and young adults that was the core of the market at that point wasn't looking for an animal mascot.

Really, the Crash and Spyro games were huge sellers on PS1

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As much flack as Bernie Stolar gets he was right about 2D games, people just weren't buying them.

Capcom's fighters, Guardian Heroes and Saturn Bomberman flopped in the west and likewise Symphony of the Night barely sold on PlayStation. Street Fighter 3 was almost completely ignored in western arcades too. By 1996 everyone wanted those "futuristic" 3D games, it's what the vast majority of people bought the next-gen consoles for.

I think Donkey Kong Country 2 (Christmas 95) was the last 2D game that sold well before the west almost unanimously swore off them for a decade.

As I pointed out SF was rather niche after the 16 bit era. Alpha 1 and 2 barely broke a million multiplatform, and mainly because of Japan who had a different stance on 2D.

SFA3 came out in 1999, when the PSX had sold over 50 million units. It sold about a million on just PSX and is probably the sole 2D fighter to do so and one of the very few 2D million sellers. Its at the bottom of the PSX top 125 best selling games, at exactly a million. The only other 2D games I can find are Rayman (which released at launch), and Abe which was a quite unique Playstation 2D game.
 
People still had more faith on Saturn compared to Playstation initially (before they were released) because it's Sega and Sega is a videogame company. Sony is a Hi-Fi and TV company just like Philips and Panasonic so the Playstation would most likely be the next CD-i or 3DO.

Particularly in Japan; you can tell this by the number of units SEGA and Sony shipped to retailers in 1994. IIRC it was something like 800K for SEGA vs. 300K for Sony. Retailers in Japan had a lot more faith in the Saturn early on due to SEGA's console pedigree to a degree, but mainly because Saturn had Virtua Fighter at launch and Virtua Fighter was a massive hit in Japan.

I think without that, initial orders for Saturn in Japan by retailers would've been a lot lower since they were a distant 3rd compared to even NEC/Hudson, let alone Nintendo, in the console space there. So I'd say most of SEGA's reputation for big quality games in Japan came from their arcade successes, and since Saturn had a virtually 1:1 port of the biggest arcade game of that time Day 1, it instilled a lot of faith in Saturn in that region.

Disagree on this. That was the fight in print media and did set a tone. But from my memory, it was more like Daytona vs Wipeout.

Ridge Racer was not terribly popular among my friends and we were early adopters. RR, like daytona, was a port of a game we'd already played in the arcade. Even if it was a more faithful one. Twisted metal, wipeout, destruction derbey, warhawk, kings field, jumping flash - These were exciting new things and I'm confident saying they very quickly overshadowed daytona or rr.

King's Field absolutely did not overshadow RR or Daytona xD, especially outside of Japan. That IP was quite niche in the West for basically its entire commercial run. While it was more popular in Japan, I wouldn't say it overshadowed RR or Daytona even there.

the important is 1995, Arc the Lad and Namco Museum Vol. 1, Rayman and MK3 are games from 1995 as well as Astal, Golden Axe The Duel and Shinobi X. Do you realize that if Namco Museum Vol. 1 and Arc the Lad sold more than 1 million copies, would it be too much to ask for Sega's 2D games to also sell 1 million copies? On the Sega Saturn, only three games (Sega Rally, Daytona, and VF2) outsold Sonic 3D Blast, a game that sold 700,000 copies.

SEGA's 2D games on Genesis in 1995 didn't sell very much honestly, and that was on a platform with a much larger install base than either Saturn or PS1 had by that point.

What 2D games would SEGA have been able to provide on Saturn in '95? '96? They didn't have many new ones in arcades by that point, and whatever 2D IP from the Genesis version they brought over to Saturn, would've been expected to go 3D by most in the West.

I guess a new 2D Streets of Rage 4 in '95 or '96 for Saturn would've done pretty decently in Japan, but probably not much in ROTW.

The Saturn exposed Sega and mostly Sega of America for the house of cards it was with the genesis. Manager and subpar second party developers. No longer protected by the clever accounting and smoke and mirrors to inflate the genesis success.

Even Sega of Japan had no idea. They weren't doing as well as they believed.

Sonic had become an American project that was not skilled enough for 3D. Cerny had left too. Naka back to Japan.

True; that FY '97 financial document leak really turned some long-standing ideas on their head for me, when it comes to SOA and Genesis during that era. Big box retailers helped get massive surges of Genesis hardware sales in the hardware, but also huge drops afterwards when SEGA had to buy back unsold inventory.

That huge seesaw effect might explain why, in what NPD or equivalent sales charts from that era we come across, the number of Genesis games in those Top 10s is generally very few compared to SNES. The active install base for Genesis that gen was probably at least somewhat lower than SNES's in America, even in the years where Genesis reportedly had majority market share.

What also might had hurt Saturn was that was the time for CD cinematics and cut scene galore.

For me, dont really care as I skip them most of the time.

But if you were a gamer who followed gaming and like that stuff, PS1's FMV clips were much smoother looking than Saturn which had a shitty grainy look to them. I think it had to do with codec differences. So Saturn couldnt even get that right.

Most Saturn games use Cinepak, which was a lot worst than MPEG-1, which was kinda trash itself compared to MPEG-2 and MJPEG (but offered much better compression on average than MJPEG). Saturn had the extra horsepower to do MPEG decoding in software, at least in theory, but in practice it was too difficult for most games to implement.

If SEGA had finished the SCU DSP and provided any real documentation for the damn thing, maybe more devs would've leveraged it for MPEG decoding purposes, freeing up the SH-2s to focus on game logic and geometry calculations. Though, the way the SCU DSP was designed would've still created an issue, since it had to be babysat so much by the SH-2 CPUs.

Something else SEGA would've needed to change if they ever finished the design of it (a big reason they didn't is because they decided on adding a second SH-2 sometime late '93/early '94).

LOL sega resistance trying to retcon that Saturn had similar power to PlayStation. Man. I had a Saturn in those days and it was rough.

I mean, it did, at least on paper. Saturn technically has a much higher MIPs output, higher bandwidth for 2D sprites/textures (because of the tiled compression VDP2 could do, for 17:1 compression ratio), lower latency VRAM, larger CD data buffer cache (512 KB vs 32 KB in PS1), and a few other things.

The problem was mainly getting it all to actually work together in a reasonable time frame. SEGA's early tools were horrendous, and documentation was poor. Sony made sure PS1's development tools were robust & streamlined from Day 0, and offered excellent technical support. PS1 also had fewer pieces to synchronize together, and the GTE was better than the SH-2s for geometry calculations in some areas (i.e having more on-chip registers. I think it's either 32 or 64; each SH-2 only has 16 32-bit general purpose registers between them).

Saturn had some other issues too, like how VDP1 did its texture mapping (forward texture mapping) and the fact all its rendered objects mapped to a single layer before being sent to VDP2 for mixing (that and the forward texture mapping would break transparency in a lot of areas). But in general, biggest problem was lack of good dev tools and documentation for certain hardware components between '94 and most of '95.
 
I think a problem Sega had was they had such smash hit arcade roots, a lot of their home games were just downports with hardly any extra features. A big Sega arcade gamer probably loved it, but gamers looking for more meat or something new and longer lasting appeal they picked PS1 or N64.

I always found it odd out of Sega, Nintendo and Sony that Sega struggled the most with hardware. You'd think with their arcade roots making awesome machines that their R&D tech wizards should figure out how to make solid home console hardware, which Nintendo/Sony shouldnt be able to figure out or beat them at it.

Well there is some nuance here to consider. SEGA always planned for Saturn to have 3D at least on Model 1 level, because the VDP1 was always part of the GigaDrive design, and the VDP1 always had operations for distorted sprites that a 2D-only system would not have bothered including. But that's probably also what led them to choose the forward texture mapping approach that chip used, since it'd be "good enough" for 3D and solid approach for 2D graphics as well.

But I'm thinking at some point (before PlayStation was revealed publicly), SEGA got to adding VDP2 to the system design as well. I'm not totally clear on the timelines for that or what features were added pre or post-PlayStation reveal. For sure the 2nd SH2 was added in response to PS1, but the myth SEGA only added 3D following December 1993 is completely false: 3D was always there for Saturn from 1992 onward.

The thing with SEGA's arcade systems is, those teams used A LOT of chips in parallelized processing setups, to achieve the performance they hit. The Model 1 was something like $15K to purchase back when new; I'm sure actual BOM costs were lower but the R&D spent on the chipset's graphics renderer and other custom chips was probably quite hefty. And the costs for Model 2 need no introduction.

I think SEGA felt that type of 3D is what home gamers would've expected, and assumed that they wouldn't be able to shrink it all down into a cost-effective home console with a simple chipset (i.e no dual CPU setup) by late 1994. So even if GigaDrive/Saturn was at first planning to feature a modest 3D capability i.e pared-down Model 1 with texture mapping support (further evidence of this is that SEGA were considering an NEC CPU; the Model 1 uses a NEC V60 for its CPU), they were always going to also push 2D with that design too.

Honestly, SEGA rushing a redesign after December '93 to compete with PS1's theoretical specs really screwed over what was an otherwise rather clean and simple Saturn design. It also seemingly pushed them into adding a second SH-2 (actually, it'd seem the 2nd SH-2 might've been considered & added prior to PS1's official public reveal), which made them shelve finishing the SCU DSP. I think a Saturn with 1x SH-2, a somewhat better VDP1, simplified VDP2, finished SCU DSP, and some local work RAM for the SCU DSP would've been very capable in its own right in the long run, if SEGA got the APIs and dev libraries really good up to launch, and provided more comprehensive documentation.

Saturn was capable of 3d games but 3d was harder to develop for Saturn. Saturn is excellent when it comes to 2d. For example , Marvel versus capcom or marvel versus street fighter on Saturn was better than Ps1 but RE1 on Ps1 performance is better than Saturn version.

TBF, the Saturn version of RE1 isn't done by Capcom, but Tose. So there may've been budget and time constraint reasons why it didn't look or run as well as it could've.

All you need to know about why the Saturn failed is Sega thinking Atari Jaguar was going to be a threat to their business. Purely clueless management.

In hindsight the idea of anyone talking '90s Atari seriously seems laughable, but you have to remember at that time, they were still a company with some brand recognition and able to pull some big deals. They got IBM to manufacture the Jaguar for example; no small-name random would've been able to arrange such a deal.

The Saturn was doomed from the design phase and not taking Sony seriously. The disconnect between Japan and America can't be ignored. The overinflated success of the Genesis in North America. Europe was the lone bright spot. The Sega CD and the 32X, so many things before the Saturn was even completed.

Also TBF, I think it's wrong to say SEGA didn't "take Sony seriously", when no one really knew what the PlayStation was until sometime in mid/late '93. And right after Sony revealing those specs, SEGA took them so seriously they forced their engineers to redesign the Saturn in record time without delaying the system launch. If you're going to basically screw up your own system design in reaction to a competitor's theoretical specs, I'd say you maybe took them TOO seriously.

I do agree tho that the inflated success of Genesis in NA probably contributed to some fatal mistakes around Saturn, namely the 32X. That only got approved because Nakayama thought Genesis was doing well enough in America to justify a new upgrade to combat Jaguar and 3DO. Had they known the financial situation was as bad as it was, I think he would've immediately cancelled approval of the 32X and just gotten America in line to support Saturn earlier & more significantly.

That maybe would've even helped save the Saturn in America.

Saturn was dead somewhere between the Japan launch to the $299 mic drop moment, and it just got worse. If you believe articles out there, 50% of their sales numbers were either returned or sitting on shelves and not actually sold. It's very similar to the Genesis where they counted many unsold consoles sitting in warehouses that had been returned from retailers.

Well, you can't believe all the articles out there because many are sensationalist. The $299 moment was at the first E3, which wasn't televised and most non-gaming outlets didn't care to mention it. There was barely any internet audience at the time as well (certainly not the way it is today); at best you had some Usenet groups on CompuServe forums and BBS going apeshit about it but they were incredibly niche.

Basically, the $299 moment didn't do or mean much to customers, but it did catch the eyes of retailers, who were present at that E3. But that's on the business side of things and would've been behind closed doors, so far as deeper reactions or moves made thereafter. What actually doomed Saturn in America wasn't the $299 IMO, but the surprise May launch.

That May launch destroyed goodwill with many retailers, with some just refusing to stock the Saturn whatsoever. The price was super-high but could've worked if available software was consistent enough to justify. It wasn't, so a limited number of units were sold between the May launch and originally planned September release. It also completely threw off SEGA's advertising partners, because they couldn't roll out the typical ad campaign since a lot of the ads weren't finished, or were already schedules for a September time period.

As someone else mention as I did in another thread, they used the System 32 arcade board as the initial design and regretted not using the Model 1 or similar set-up.

This isn't true; the GigaDrive concept used both System 32 and Model 1 as inspiration for the initial design. Go look at the VDP1's development history and the way it was specifically designed to work with distorted sprites in particular. That alone is indication it was a hybrid of System 32 and Model 1 graphics principles, although probably leaning more towards the former in practice.

If you believe the talk that Saturn only added 3D after the PS1 reveal, then that talk's misled you. SEGA did beef up Saturn in reaction to PS1, yes, but that was was mainly in computational power, not graphics chipsets or features. VDP2 probably did get some extra features in response to PS1, but VDP1 didn't. VDP1 was always there in the design since the GigaDrive days. They had already decided on (a) SH-2 by late 1992 and added the 2nd one by late 1993.

I'm still not convinced the Saturn was any better than either the PS1 or N64 at 2D graphics. What exactly made it better? In most cases where the Saturn beats the PS1 at multiplatform ports, it's the extra RAM carts that make the difference, not the internal vanilla hardware. In all other cases there's no definite winner. Some games are better on the Saturn, some are better on the PS1. Both consoles have some equally great looking 2D exclusives too. I just don't think there's a single game on either console that proves one is superior to the other on that front. They look equally good to me.

Just because the Saturn was weaker in 3D than it's competition it doesn't automatically make it better at 2D. I'ts not an RPG where a weak stat makes other stats stronger.

Actually, there are some very specific areas in the vanilla hardware where Saturn is better for 2D than PS1:

1: The CD-ROM cache buffer. It's 512 KB in Saturn, but only 32 KB in PS1. So, less slow CD drive accesses to make for sprite graphics data, when talking about Saturn

2: Low-latency large off-chip VRAM. For Saturn it's 512 KB of SDRAM with 17 ns latency. In the PS1 it's 1 MB of VRAM for both the textures and framebuffers, but 60 ns access latency (before they switched to SGRAM). Also for PS1, it's a 16-bit device; I think it's also 16-bit for the 512 KB texture SDRAM in Saturn as well but again, much lower latency.

3: More VRAM in general. 1.5 MB for Saturn (VDP1: 512 KB texture RAM, 2x 256 KB framebuffer RAMs; VDP2: 1x 512 KB texture cache (VDP2 doesn't use a framebuffer; it uses internal line buffer memory and scanline rendering like 4th-gen consoles (well, I dunno if 4th-gen consoles used line buffer memory the way I'm picturing it, vs. just completely hardware-based sprite and tile registers that sent output in time with commands synced to the scanline beam refresh rate)) vs. 1 MB in PS1 (shared between textures and framebuffers; much higher latency).

PS1 does have a 2 KB direct-mapped embedded texture cache, but for 2D games in particular the combination generally isn't as good as what Saturn offers with a fat 512 KB off-chip low-latency SDRAM texture cache that can be accessed at random directly.​

So, those are the three big reasons why Saturn in general would've had better-looking 2D games vs. PS1. There are some other things too, like how with PS1 you aren't literally using sprites (well, Saturn isn't "literally" using sprites either, at least not hardware-based ones like the SNES or Genesis did), but mapping textures to paired triangles forming quads, so the more "sprites" you have, the less polys you have for things like the backgrounds (also have to be mapped to polys) and 3D graphical effects. A single quad being equal to two triangles does have some advantages when it comes to needing less polygons for similar things.

Not to mention, Saturn has VDP2 for stuff like background art, scrolling backgrounds, and Mode 7-style 3D planes. All things which on PS1, you'd need to dedicate triangle budget towards. And this is all before taking into consideration the 1 MB ROM, 1 MB RAM, and 4 MB RAM Expansion cartridges some 2D Saturn games used.
 
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Yeah, they didn't stock the SNES console when I worked there, but you could always shift one or two copies of £60+ SNES games every week, with a 50% retail markup. Still, after a while they told me it wasn't worth the shelf space.

Eventually the games department became 90% Playstation. They did have an N64 demo pod around the UK launch, and the Japanese import N64 was available to order for around £700-800 before that, but nobody ever went for that option.

Saturn was just crowded out by more exciting things. There was never any buzz around it, whereas the people who would listen to the latest white label vinyl on the DJ decks were also buying Playstations.

"the people who would listen to the latest white label vinyl on the DJ decks were also buying Playstations."

Shallow, I.D Mag reading cunts.....
 
"the people who would listen to the latest white label vinyl on the DJ decks were also buying Playstations."

Shallow, I.D Mag reading cunts.....
Maybe! But I think the point is that Playstation was bringing a new audience to gaming, people who had grown up and left Sega and Nintendo behind. And unlike when Nintendo found a new audience with the Wii, these people actually bought games and stuck around for subsequent generations.

All this talk about which console was more powerful is irrelevant. Sony was just a much cooler brand, they could have swapped hardware with Sega and the result would have been the same.
 
As much flack as Bernie Stolar gets he was right about 2D games, people just weren't buying them in the west.

Capcom's fighters, Guardian Heroes and Saturn Bomberman flopped in the west and likewise Symphony of the Night barely sold on PlayStation. Street Fighter 3 was almost completely ignored in western arcades too. By 1996 everyone wanted those "futuristic" 3D games, it's what the vast majority of people bought the next-gen consoles for.

I think Donkey Kong Country 2 (Christmas 95) was the last 2D game that sold well before the west almost unanimously swore off them for a decade.
Sigh...

It's not about 2D fighters, though. I didn't even mention them. Gun Griffon 2 or Dead Or Alive aren't anything to do with Capcom or 2D Vs fighters but good quailty 3D games and worse still Bernie didn't look to bring Grandia over which wasn't just a game that was a better RPG than FF7, at the time it killed FF7 at a grahical level and hell even the FMV was up there with the best of PS and run in a higer screen res than most FMV games at the time.

Bernie not only pissed off one of the few corps still supporting SEGA in the west he looked not to bring over Stellar Assault SS, Zero Divid Bulk Slash and not many others.
Nothing that would change the sales fortunes of the Saturn in the USA, but good quality games for the poor USA owners of the Saturn and better help with the Saturn's rep for having quality games.
 
Sega shouldn't have launched the Saturn in 1994 directly against Sony. It would have never worked out to launch head-on vs. a large conglomerate with strong brand recognition and deep financial resources. Even if Sega's original 'Saturnday' launch plans went off flawlessly they would have lost a war of attrition eventually with that strategy. The 3D tech just wasn't there in 1994 anyway.

Rather than beef up the Saturn to compete better against the Playstation, the decision should have been made at Sega to instead delay the Saturn a couple of years and cede 1994 to Sony. A couple of years later Sega can have the obviously better machine and have a distinct competitive advantage that way. Target holiday 1996 with contemporary hardware and 20+ launch titles - one handful of showstopping Model 2 ports, good sports games, a few lengthy 3D platformers and Action-RPGs, and have a few old Playstation ports that show an obvious graphical enhacement. In this alternate scenario, the gaming press can print their 1:1 comparisons that fall in the Saturn's favor.

And since Sega went to the expense of adding a cartridge slot to the Saturn anyway, they might as well make the cartridge slot actually be capable of playing cartridge games, for the few genres that need a seamless, loading-free experience. Rob Nintendo of that advantage while they're at it.

An undeniably amazing first impression was everything at the time. The cartridge-based Nintendo 64 had nearly nothing going for it except Super Mario 64 single-handedly guaranteed that system some level of success. If Sega went all-in on a 1996 Saturn with contemporary tech and a large launch library it could have generated amazing hype.
 
I mean, it did, at least on paper. Saturn technically has a much higher MIPs output, higher bandwidth for 2D sprites/textures (because of the tiled compression VDP2 could do, for 17:1 compression ratio), lower latency VRAM, larger CD data buffer cache (512 KB vs 32 KB in PS1), and a few other things.

The problem was mainly getting it all to actually work together in a reasonable time frame. SEGA's early tools were horrendous, and documentation was poor. Sony made sure PS1's development tools were robust & streamlined from Day 0, and offered excellent technical support. PS1 also had fewer pieces to synchronize together, and the GTE was better than the SH-2s for geometry calculations in some areas (i.e having more on-chip registers. I think it's either 32 or 64; each SH-2 only has 16 32-bit general purpose registers between them).

Saturn had some other issues too, like how VDP1 did its texture mapping (forward texture mapping) and the fact all its rendered objects mapped to a single layer before being sent to VDP2 for mixing (that and the forward texture mapping would break transparency in a lot of areas). But in general, biggest problem was lack of good dev tools and documentation for certain hardware components between '94 and most of '95
VF2 was a good example of what you could do with the Saturn but in the end every other game looked worst. And it was not only the transparencies. But the transparencies where a big part of that generation. You wanted a shadow? Transparency. A light? Transparency. Smoke? Transparency. It was all the bells and whistles of the generation and having them with dithering sucked ass. It wasn't even nowadays 4K dithering. It was more annoying. But that console still has the best version of Panzer Dragoon, RIP.
 




I actually thought Olympic Soccer was the best football made for the 32-bit generation. The closest anyone ever got to a 3D Sensible Soccer

Also, while it doesn't play the best and the ball looks too big. The Saturn did have one of the best-looking football games ever made at that time, shame like a lot of the good stuff , it was Japan only. My eyes almost popped out of my head when my import shop got this in. It was like Virtual Striker in the home visually. Astonishing graphics and super smooth frame rate in semi high res


Phenomenal! ♥️♥️♥️
 
VF2 was a good example of what you could do with the Saturn but in the end every other game looked worst. And it was not only the transparencies. But the transparencies where a big part of that generation. You wanted a shadow? Transparency. A light? Transparency. Smoke? Transparency. It was all the bells and whistles of the generation and having them with dithering sucked ass. It wasn't even nowadays 4K dithering. It was more annoying. But that console still has the best version of Panzer Dragoon, RIP.

Die Hard Trilogy is a good example of the difference transparency made on PlayStation, especially with glass and fire

The below screenshot shows transparent windows, explosions and light beams coming from the floor all absent on Saturn

Someone will do doubt wade in and bring up Burning Rangers with its frame buffer wizardry, but it irrelevant, this is what consumers saw in almost every 3rd party 3D game.



aHY5nea7esXXt37x.png
 
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Sega shouldn't have launched the Saturn in 1994 directly against Sony. It would have never worked out to launch head-on vs. a large conglomerate with strong brand recognition and deep financial resources. Even if Sega's original 'Saturnday' launch plans went off flawlessly they would have lost a war of attrition eventually with that strategy. The 3D tech just wasn't there in 1994 anyway.

Rather than beef up the Saturn to compete better against the Playstation, the decision should have been made at Sega to instead delay the Saturn a couple of years and cede 1994 to Sony. A couple of years later Sega can have the obviously better machine and have a distinct competitive advantage that way. Target holiday 1996 with contemporary hardware and 20+ launch titles - one handful of showstopping Model 2 ports, good sports games, a few lengthy 3D platformers and Action-RPGs, and have a few old Playstation ports that show an obvious graphical enhacement. In this alternate scenario, the gaming press can print their 1:1 comparisons that fall in the Saturn's favor.

And since Sega went to the expense of adding a cartridge slot to the Saturn anyway, they might as well make the cartridge slot actually be capable of playing cartridge games, for the few genres that need a seamless, loading-free experience. Rob Nintendo of that advantage while they're at it.

An undeniably amazing first impression was everything at the time. The cartridge-based Nintendo 64 had nearly nothing going for it except Super Mario 64 single-handedly guaranteed that system some level of success. If Sega went all-in on a 1996 Saturn with contemporary tech and a large launch library it could have generated amazing hype.
This is the worst idea I've heard on this topic yet. One, the N64 launched in 1996 and barely moved the needle even with one of the best games ever, what makes you think Sega would with a bunch of games the market was already showing less interest in. It's also very hard to build success against a massively successful system that has 1-2 years of momentum, even if you are technically more powerful - see the PS2 vs Xbox/Cube. People buy a system, they like a system, they buy the system their friends have, etc. Two, the PSX was $200 by the end of 1996 and had a lineup of games that a new system couldn't compete with. This forced Nintendo to drop the price before the N64 even came out, so Sega would be forced to do the same (eating a loss it probably couldn't afford to eat) or release at a nonstarter price.

Also, Sony's success was far from guaranteed. In fact, it was widely assumed they would struggle against entrenched competitors with knowledge of the industry. Sony's success was a result of running a very smart operation and taking the time to learn the market before they jumped in. Many other large conglomerates with strong brand recognition and deep financial resources failed in this market before.
 
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As I pointed out SF was rather niche after the 16 bit era. Alpha 1 and 2 barely broke a million multiplatform, and mainly because of Japan who had a different stance on 2D. SFA3 came out in 1999, when the PSX had sold over 50 million units. It sold about a million on just PSX and is probably the sole 2D fighter to do so and one of the very few 2D million sellers. Its at the bottom of the PSX top 125 best selling games, at exactly a million.
MK trilogy sold 2 million 1996

Yes, Street Fighter 2 was a phenomenon, but you have to look at the context. At that time, that game was unique and exclusive to the SNES, totaling 10.4 million, a huge number. But in the 5th Gen, Street Fighter wasn't a AAA. Alpha 3 is the closest to a AAA game, so sales were good.
No normal and common game deserves to have good sales, this applies to 2D and 3D.
The only other 2D games I can find are Rayman (which released at launch), and Abe which was a quite unique Playstation 2D game.

the list is longer

Rayman
Abe's Oddysee
Namco Museum v3
Mortal Kombat Trilogy
Namco Museum v1
Arc the Lad
SaGa Frontier
Arc the Lad 2
street fighter alpha 3
Legend of Mana

Yoshi's Story (n64 2d game)

Locally, any game with 500,000 units is considered a success in Japan -Even today- Arc The Lad quickly reached 1 million, which is why Atl 2 sold millions. Before FF7, this was FF7 in 1995.

Any 2D game is considered a success if it sells 300,000 units, so it's important to be cautious. Sales of 1 million were very important at the time. Using Nintendo as a reference is incorrect because, except for Square Enix and Street Fighter, no major third-party game surpassed the 1.7 million mark, namely Aladdin and MK2 (MK2 is in 29th position on a list of 54).

The best-selling 2D game on the Saturn in Japan was Darkstalkers' Revenge (340k) in 1996, but the difference between it and Arc the Lad is that the rpg counts as Sony's first party, while in Darkstalkers' Revenge, Sega was only entitled to royalties. The financial difference between the PlayStation division and Sega was this: the disparity in sales of first-party games.
 
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MK trilogy sold 2 million 1996

Yes, Street Fighter 2 was a phenomenon, but you have to look at the context. At that time, that game was unique and exclusive to the SNES, totaling 10.4 million, a huge number. But in the 5th Gen, Street Fighter wasn't a AAA. Alpha 3 is the closest to a AAA game, so sales were good.
No normal and common game deserves to have good sales, this applies to 2D and 3D.


the list is longer

Rayman
Abe's Oddysee
Namco Museum v3
Mortal Kombat Trilogy
Namco Museum v1
Arc the Lad
SaGa Frontier
Arc the Lad 2
street fighter alpha 3
Legend of Mana

Yoshi's Story (n64 2d game)

Locally, any game with 500,000 units is considered a success in Japan -Even today- Arc The Lad quickly reached 1 million, which is why Atl 2 sold millions. Before FF7, this was FF7 in 1995.

Any 2D game is considered a success if it sells 300,000 units, so it's important to be cautious. Sales of 1 million were very important at the time. Using Nintendo as a reference is incorrect because, except for Square Enix and Street Fighter, no major third-party game surpassed the 1.7 million mark, namely Aladdin and MK2 (MK2 is in 29th position on a list of 54).

The best-selling 2D game on the Saturn in Japan was Darkstalkers' Revenge (340k) in 1996, but the difference between it and Arc the Lad is that the rpg counts as Sony's first party, while in Darkstalkers' Revenge, Sega was only entitled to royalties. The financial difference between the PlayStation division and Sega was this: the disparity in sales of first-party games.

My point was that if you look at the top selling PS1 and Saturn games in the USA practically none of them are 2D
 
Perhaps technically the Saturn was better in 2d graphics, however:

1) It was only noticable in a handful of titles.
2) The majority of 2d games looked identical.
3) The PSX also had excellent 2d games.
4) SOTN was better on the PSX (arguably the best 2d game ever).
SotN was developed for PSX first and ended up in the hands of a studio that did a rush job porting it to the Saturn.

(Also, I find SotN overrated a bit. Not even the best Castlevania of either style, much less any 2d game.)

Anyways, Saturn could natively pull off sprite tricks the other two systems could not. It wasn't just about RAM. They tried porting Radiant Silvergun and the D&D Mystara games, but neither happened.
 
SotN was developed for PSX first and ended up in the hands of a studio that did a rush job porting it to the Saturn.

(Also, I find SotN overrated a bit. Not even the best Castlevania of either style, much less any 2d game.)

Anyways, Saturn could natively pull off sprite tricks the other two systems could not. It wasn't just about RAM. They tried porting Radiant Silvergun and the D&D Mystara games, but neither happened.
And we all saw how X-Men COTA ended. This game has many layers of backgrounds in the most complex stages.
 
VF2 was a good example of what you could do with the Saturn but in the end every other game looked worst. And it was not only the transparencies. But the transparencies where a big part of that generation. You wanted a shadow? Transparency. A light? Transparency. Smoke? Transparency. It was all the bells and whistles of the generation and having them with dithering sucked ass. It wasn't even nowadays 4K dithering. It was more annoying. But that console still has the best version of Panzer Dragoon, RIP.

Well, I've been doing a LOT of research into systems like Saturn, PS1 etc. lately, and some features I've learned WRT PS1 is it had support for different color depths simultaneously; I'm not 100% sure if the Saturn did. With the Saturn, VDP1 had to share color palettes with VDP2 in the latter's CRAM, which was programmable, but 4 KB-sized. One of the modes for the CRAM is apparently undocumented, but basically your color depth options on Saturn were 16-bit (15-bit RGB + 1-bit alpha) or 24-bit direct color mode. But from what I've read, the 24-bit color palettes would store in the CRAM, and that used 2048 longword (3 bytes, I'd assume) organization type with 2048 palette entries.

Not necessarily aware of the organization and palette entry types for PS1, but I know it used software-defined CLUTs in the VRAM space. Maybe that allowed them to hold more palette entries and/or entries with larger organization types (tho I doubt the latter; I don't think PS1 supported 32-bit color (i.e 8:8:8 RGB + 8-bit alpha), but I think the N64 did)? Another thing worth mentioning, with PS1 a lot of the effects you mentioned were hardware-based, but on Saturn you had to do them in software or approximate them through color math blending, which the VDP2 did.

But like I already said earlier, VDP2 would take a VDP1 framebuffer as a single layer, and that caused some of the issue with transparency for 3D rendered objects. But also worth considering, dithering for shadows via meshes on the Saturn would've looked perfectly fine on CRTs of the era, and I'm sure SEGA took that into consideration. It only looks bad in a post-CRT era but, well, we're there.
 
Also, Sony's success was far from guaranteed. In fact, it was widely assumed they would struggle against entrenched competitors with knowledge of the industry. Sony's success was a result of running a very smart operation and taking the time to learn the market before they jumped in. Many other large conglomerates with strong brand recognition and deep financial resources failed in this market before.
There's a formula any company uses to enter any market, it's called innovation. Sony had a very innovative chip capable of producing millions of sprites per second. Sony then changed the PS1's hardware from 2D to 3D. (The official narrative says that Sega changed the hardware at the last minute the irony is that it was Sony that did this in 1993!) This generated a 3D result that Sega couldn't handle using a traditional configuration; there simply wasn't commercial technology at a competitive price. Sega's strategists assumed that a console with limited 3D would be considered obsolete. Sega made a huge mistake in underestimating the influence of price on a console's success. Perhaps using limited 3D would be better, at least they would have a lower price.
 
Sigh...

It's not about 2D fighters, though. I didn't even mention them. Gun Griffon 2 or Dead Or Alive aren't anything to do with Capcom or 2D Vs fighters but good quailty 3D games and worse still Bernie didn't look to bring Grandia over which wasn't just a game that was a better RPG than FF7, at the time it killed FF7 at a grahical level and hell even the FMV was up there with the best of PS and run in a higer screen res than most FMV games at the time.

All of the bolded is subjective, just your personal opinion. At the time, 3D was the new hotness and FF VII had plenty of it. Grandia didn't, outside of the backgrounds. Also depending on who you ask, its story is a lot simpler than FF VII's, to the point where it seemed old-school/outdated story-wise compared to the (convoluted) somewhat edgy Evangelion-style anime story of VII.

Bernie not only pissed off one of the few corps still supporting SEGA in the west he looked not to bring over Stellar Assault SS, Zero Divid Bulk Slash and not many others.
Nothing that would change the sales fortunes of the Saturn in the USA, but good quality games for the poor USA owners of the Saturn and better help with the Saturn's rep for having quality games.

Well, getting those games in '98 and '99 would've been better for Saturn in the West vs. SEGA basically going MIA from retail or 18 months.

Sega shouldn't have launched the Saturn in 1994 directly against Sony. It would have never worked out to launch head-on vs. a large conglomerate with strong brand recognition and deep financial resources. Even if Sega's original 'Saturnday' launch plans went off flawlessly they would have lost a war of attrition eventually with that strategy. The 3D tech just wasn't there in 1994 anyway.

Rather than beef up the Saturn to compete better against the Playstation, the decision should have been made at Sega to instead delay the Saturn a couple of years and cede 1994 to Sony. A couple of years later Sega can have the obviously better machine and have a distinct competitive advantage that way. Target holiday 1996 with contemporary hardware and 20+ launch titles - one handful of showstopping Model 2 ports, good sports games, a few lengthy 3D platformers and Action-RPGs, and have a few old Playstation ports that show an obvious graphical enhacement. In this alternate scenario, the gaming press can print their 1:1 comparisons that fall in the Saturn's favor.

And since Sega went to the expense of adding a cartridge slot to the Saturn anyway, they might as well make the cartridge slot actually be capable of playing cartridge games, for the few genres that need a seamless, loading-free experience. Rob Nintendo of that advantage while they're at it.

An undeniably amazing first impression was everything at the time. The cartridge-based Nintendo 64 had nearly nothing going for it except Super Mario 64 single-handedly guaranteed that system some level of success. If Sega went all-in on a 1996 Saturn with contemporary tech and a large launch library it could have generated amazing hype.

The Saturn's problem IMO wasn't power: it was more powerful in raw processing than the PS1. The problem were its horrible dev support, with mediocre tools and virtually no support. Even teams like Time Warner who were working on ports of Virtua Racing for the Saturn, weren't given great tools by SEGA (they had to use the old, bulky Sophia and pre-Sophia dev kits, and didn't have the SGL APIs to work with) and couldn't even use the arcade game's source code! So you can only imagine the anemic level of support SEGA were providing to 3P devs around the same time.

I agree that Saturn would've benefited from a delay, but not primarily to boost its power. A delay would've been beneficial for the following things tech-wise:

1: Upgrade the dual-SH2s to a single SH3 at a higher clock, and redesign parts of the system as needed. Actually, SEGA should've known Hitachi's roadmap at the time for an SH3 and had planned their 1993-early '94 redesign to account for switching to a SH3​
2: Finish the SCU DSP, including genuine documentation and at least a C compiler so devs didn't have to do all of its code in assembly language. And give it a block of RAM; maybe move the 512 KB from the CD-ROM subsystem to the SCU DSP, since that data has to go through the SCU anyway?​
3: Get rid of the low Work RAM and just use 2 MB of SDRAM instead​
4: Develop better tools for VDP1 and VDP2 ahead of launch​
5: Maybe re-use the SEGA CD's CD controller instead of the SH1 (especially if it allowed for lower pinouts and power consumption)​

Those are the main five things SEGA could've done on the tech side for a delay to, say, late 1995 in Japan, so they can still get out ahead of Nintendo. The rest of their work should've focused on improving support for 3P devs early on, with better libraries, documentation and services. The delay would've also given them more time to get quality launch software ready.

Oh, and something else they should've done: cancel the 32X completely. If needed, release a standalone SVP cartridge for games to utilize via lock-on if they wanted to. 32X was a complete waste of resources and time, and negatively affected the Saturn, especially in America.

This is the worst idea I've heard on this topic yet. One, the N64 launched in 1996 and barely moved the needle even with one of the best games ever, what makes you think Sega would with a bunch of games the market was already showing less interest in. It's also very hard to build success against a massively successful system that has 1-2 years of momentum, even if you are technically more powerful - see the PS2 vs Xbox/Cube. People buy a system, they like a system, they buy the system their friends have, etc. Two, the PSX was $200 by the end of 1996 and had a lineup of games that a new system couldn't compete with. This forced Nintendo to drop the price before the N64 even came out, so Sega would be forced to do the same (eating a loss it probably couldn't afford to eat) or release at a nonstarter price.

Also, Sony's success was far from guaranteed. In fact, it was widely assumed they would struggle against entrenched competitors with knowledge of the industry. Sony's success was a result of running a very smart operation and taking the time to learn the market before they jumped in. Many other large conglomerates with strong brand recognition and deep financial resources failed in this market before.

Not everything they suggested is bad. The N64 was actually respectably competitive with PS1 in the West, and part of that was because Nintendo ate SEGA's remains. Once the Saturn died, N64 became the "2nd console" or party console by default, and two of the main genres Saturn had going for it in the West (3D racers & FPS), ended up becoming two of the biggest genres or N64 in the same territories. I don't think that's a coincidence.

I don't think the market was disinterested in arcade games by that point: the success of titles like Ridge Racer, Toshinden, Tekken, Loaded and others show as such. What they were getting tired of, were arcade-style games with barebones amount of content. Most of SEGA's ports to Saturn had little additional content outside of slightly rearranged "Saturn Modes". Games like VF2 had no pre or post-game CG cutscene lore for characters, no bonus modes, no unlockable art galleries or extensive music OSTs, or new home-exclusive characters. That just wasn't going to cut it anymore.

As for PS1's early success, well it's interesting to consider if it would've sold more between late '94, and '95, if they didn't have Saturn to contend with. SEGA really wanted the Saturn out in '94 because they were worried the N64 would be released in Japan by '95. Without a Saturn in that timeframe, it's entirely possible PS1 would've sold even more units, particularly in Japan. On the other hand, had Saturn released September 2nd '95 in America as originally planned, I think its sales would've been stronger, and PS1 would've either had a smaller lead, or trailed slightly behind Saturn in the West for the 1995 period.

But any delay out of 1994 by SEGA would've probably been focused on the Japanese market, and that's where they very likely would've lost ground. Maybe they could've given the 32X a real push in Japan in Saturn's place, but then they'd just abandon it once Saturn came out and the consumer burn that happened in America would've happened in Japan. The only way I think it could've worked, is if SEGA of Japan did push 32X early on instead of Saturn, but then make the Saturn BC with both MegaDrive and 32X software (and the Mega CD, just for good measure). I think it'd also mean having a way for peripherals of those systems to work on the Saturn, find a way to program enhanced versions of select MegaDrive/32X/CD games for the Saturn and offer a discount for MD/32X/CD owners who purchased the original versions on those platforms (and registered the purchases by a certain date).

That could've probably allowed a Saturn delay to late 1995 in Japan with better specs, better intermediate support for the 32X, and a better business strategy for transitioning MD/32X/CD owners to Saturn.
 
Actually thinking about it a bit, it wouldn't have been as easy for SEGA to just switch out the SH2s with an SH3. Hitachi were desperate for a mass-market product to adopt SH chips, and the Saturn was the first to do so.

Arguably, without Saturn adopting SH2, Hitachi don't justify it worth further investment so there never ends up being a SH3? I mean sure, SEGA could've guaranteed they'd adopt the SH3, but they were part of the reason for many of the changes from SH1 to SH2 in the first place. For them to just not adopt the chip that bore most of the results of those changes, after being the driving factor for them...I don't know if Hitachi would've liked that.

Or specifically, the SH team making those processors. Hitachi also made those changes to the SH because of the timetable SEGA established for the Saturn, so that would've complicated things further. Maybe SEGA pays extra to Hitachi for shifting from SH2 to SH3? But by that time, Hitachi would've arranged better terms most likely, due to time wasted on SH2 only for it to not be used in the Saturn. So in a way, I think SEGA were probably "stuck" with the SH2 after all; either that or drop it, but then Hitachi likely would've broken talks off with SEGA, forcing SEGA to seek out another CPU vendor (maybe NEC, since they were in talks with them prior to choosing SH?).

But a switch to another CPU vendor would've meant redesigning various aspects of the system and its tools since they'd be using a non-SH ISA. MIPS was an option, but again, would've required some heavy redesigns in various aspects of the system to account for architectural differences.
 
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Well, I've been doing a LOT of research into systems like Saturn, PS1 etc. lately, and some features I've learned WRT PS1 is it had support for different color depths simultaneously; I'm not 100% sure if the Saturn did. With the Saturn, VDP1 had to share color palettes with VDP2 in the latter's CRAM, which was programmable, but 4 KB-sized. One of the modes for the CRAM is apparently undocumented, but basically your color depth options on Saturn were 16-bit (15-bit RGB + 1-bit alpha) or 24-bit direct color mode. But from what I've read, the 24-bit color palettes would store in the CRAM, and that used 2048 longword (3 bytes, I'd assume) organization type with 2048 palette entries.

Not necessarily aware of the organization and palette entry types for PS1, but I know it used software-defined CLUTs in the VRAM space. Maybe that allowed them to hold more palette entries and/or entries with larger organization types (tho I doubt the latter; I don't think PS1 supported 32-bit color (i.e 8:8:8 RGB + 8-bit alpha), but I think the N64 did)? Another thing worth mentioning, with PS1 a lot of the effects you mentioned were hardware-based, but on Saturn you had to do them in software or approximate them through color math blending, which the VDP2 did.

But like I already said earlier, VDP2 would take a VDP1 framebuffer as a single layer, and that caused some of the issue with transparency for 3D rendered objects. But also worth considering, dithering for shadows via meshes on the Saturn would've looked perfectly fine on CRTs of the era, and I'm sure SEGA took that into consideration. It only looks bad in a post-CRT era but, well, we're there.
Good Burger Reading GIF


But also worth considering, dithering for shadows via meshes on the Saturn would've looked perfectly fine on CRTs of the era, and I'm sure SEGA took that into consideration. It only looks bad in a post-CRT era but, well, we're there.
Oh no, I know these words and they are a lie. Maybe in a low end CRT it was true but by the time I got a Saturn I had a 29"(roughly the same surface of a later 32" 21:9 tv) Super Trinitron and that thing sucked ass.
 
Actually thinking about it a bit, it wouldn't have been as easy for SEGA to just switch out the SH2s with an SH3. Hitachi were desperate for a mass-market product to adopt SH chips, and the Saturn was the first to do so.

Arguably, without Saturn adopting SH2, Hitachi don't justify it worth further investment so there never ends up being a SH3? I mean sure, SEGA could've guaranteed they'd adopt the SH3, but they were part of the reason for many of the changes from SH1 to SH2 in the first place. For them to just not adopt the chip that bore most of the results of those changes, after being the driving factor for them...I don't know if Hitachi would've liked that.

Or specifically, the SH team making those processors. Hitachi also made those changes to the SH because of the timetable SEGA established for the Saturn, so that would've complicated things further. Maybe SEGA pays extra to Hitachi for shifting from SH2 to SH3? But by that time, Hitachi would've arranged better terms most likely, due to time wasted on SH2 only for it to not be used in the Saturn. So in a way, I think SEGA were probably "stuck" with the SH2 after all; either that or drop it, but then Hitachi likely would've broken talks off with SEGA, forcing SEGA to seek out another CPU vendor (maybe NEC, since they were in talks with them prior to choosing SH?).

But a switch to another CPU vendor would've meant redesigning various aspects of the system and its tools since they'd be using a non-SH ISA. MIPS was an option, but again, would've required some heavy redesigns in various aspects of the system to account for architectural differences.

Butterfly thinking here, your pretty deep in the woods here! I don't have an answer, but I do like the NEC option since that's where the next console went. Maybe you can have the best of both worlds - your SH2 and SH3 and split the difference with the 32X and Saturn ;)

I've always wondered why none of the console manufacturers went with a 68K 030/040 or higher at a good MHZ. Was the chip not viable? Amiga CD32 doesn't count.
 
The Saturn's problem IMO wasn't power: it was more powerful in raw processing than the PS1. The problem were its horrible dev support, with mediocre tools and virtually no support.
How could improving the tools help the Sega Saturn? The console was discontinued behind the scenes in June 1996.
Even teams like Time Warner who were working on ports of Virtua Racing for the Saturn, weren't given great tools by SEGA (they had to use the old, bulky Sophia and pre-Sophia dev kits, and didn't have the SGL APIs to work with) and couldn't even use the arcade game's source code!
Virtua Racing is a very advanced game and one of the best racing games on the Sega Saturn. It has little pop-in and runs at up to 30fps.
sorry, there is no way the Sega Saturn can do better, it doesn't have the processing power, you're overestimate the capabilities of this primitive console.
 
Actually thinking about it a bit, it wouldn't have been as easy for SEGA to just switch out the SH2s with an SH3. Hitachi were desperate for a mass-market product to adopt SH chips, and the Saturn was the first to do so.

Gaming is subjective and sure many people will have their own views own which is the better RPG for story and all that. I don't think it's in much doubt that Grandia was graphically the better looking game mind, than FF7. I'm just on about FF7 here mind, Square really upped their game with FF 8 which had stupendous visuals (more so for the battle sections) and the best FMV I have ever seen at the time


I also think you're wrong to focus on Time Warner, it's not like they were a good developer and for me the main issue was they seemed to have no access to the source code which for me would be the main issue. Sure SEGA tools needed to be better and weren't up to par, but SEGA Japan was already addressing that in March of 1995 when they were showing off the 1st screen shots of VF2 on the Saturn and their new official development system, the SGL tool set, which credit to SEGA America (for once) looked to use a consumer massed produced Saturn's and its Cart slot.

The thing with Virtual Racing, had we not had the 32X then The Saturn would have had the CS Team handling the version and that would have been even better than the 32X version, with that team working on the more powerful hardware. Doom would have been better on the Saturn with the 32X Team handling the Saturn port and would have been out months before the PS1 version too

It all goes back to the 32X for me, even for development. I bet SEGA had trouble making enough SH-2 to be distributed in both Saturn and 32X development units, never mind also making them for retail early in, never mind how it split SEGA development budgets, development teams and PR, even SONY found it hard trying to support 2 different systems with its consoles and handhelds, while SEGA was looking to support the Mega Drive, Game Gear, Master System, 32X, Saturn and the Arcades in 1995, It was sheer madness in anyone book

If SEGA America was so worried about the price of the Saturn (which for me wasn't an issue) They should have backed the original plan of the Jupiter system which was a Saturn without the CD-Rom (that could be added latter) At least that system would have allowed developers to use the same development kits and share resources

No way could SEGA beat or match SONY and the $500 they put into the PS1 even before it launched, but the N64 was there for the taking and thanks to SEGA America and Europe, SEGA cocked it all up :(

All that said mind, The Sega Saturn is still the best console I've ever owned and the system that gave me the best enjoyment in gaming

SEGA, GameArts, RAIZING and Lobotomy were GODs back them
 
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Gaming is subjective and sure many people will have their own views own which is the better RPG for story and all that. I don't think it's in much doubt that Grandia was graphically the better looking game mind, than FF7. I'm just on about FF7 here mind, Square really upped their game with FF 8 which had stupendous visuals (more so for the battle sections) and the best FMV I have ever seen at the time


I also think you're wrong to focus on Time Warner, it's not like they were a good developer and for me the main issue was they seemed to have no access to the source code which for me would be the main issue. Sure SEGA tools needed to be better and weren't up to par, but SEGA Japan was already addressing that in March of 1995 when they were showing off the 1st screen shots of VF2 on the Saturn and their new official development system, the SGL tool set, which credit to SEGA America (for once) looked to use a consumer massed produced Saturn's and its Cart slot.

The thing with Virtual Racing, had we not had the 32X then The Saturn would have had the CS Team handling the version and that would have been even better than the 32X version, with that team working on the more powerful hardware. Doom would have been better on the Saturn with the 32X Team handling the Saturn port and would have been out months before the PS1 version too

It all goes back to the 32X for me, even for development. I bet SEGA had trouble making enough SH-2 to be distributed in both Saturn and 32X development units, never mind also making them for retail early in, never mind how it split SEGA development budgets, development teams and PR, even SONY found it hard trying to support 2 different systems with its consoles and handhelds, while SEGA was looking to support the Mega Drive, Game Gear, Master System, 32X, Saturn and the Arcades in 1995, It was sheer madness in anyone book

If SEGA America was so worried about the price of the Saturn (which for me wasn't an issue) They should have backed the original plan of the Jupiter system which was a Saturn without the CD-Rom (that could be added latter) At least that system would have allowed developers to use the same development kits and share resources

No way could SEGA beat or match SONY and the $500 they put into the PS1 even before it launched, but the N64 was there for the taking and thanks to SEGA America and Europe, SEGA cocked it all up :(

All that said mind, The Sega Saturn is still the best console I've ever owned and the system that gave me the best enjoyment in gaming

SEGA, GameArts, RAIZING and Lobotomy were GODs back them
I really wish Phantasy Star got the same respect and treatment as FF7. I thought Shining force was really good too.

Fully agree with the 32X split of resources. But I did really enjoy my 32X for Star Wars and the best versions of Midway titles and primal rage. Virtua Fighter was good too.

Loosing the UK was a pretty impressive achievement ;)
 
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