I also want to say that the manga is good at coming up with disses. I really like both Deku's "I'm not all might..and shoto isn't you." and Shoto's "I just forgot you existed." The nest insults are ones that are specific to a characters identity, and if Endeavor is trying to recreate himself in Shoto, the literal worst thing you can possibly say to him is that he's being forgotten. It's a subtle aspect of verbal sparring that few writers get.
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My Hero Academia (Shonen Jump) move over pirates, ninjas, reapers, its Hero time
- Thread starter SalvaPot
- Start date
I love how they aren't just smart, but sensible. Bakugou's an asshole, and the characters know that he's an asshole. There's no contrivance to make Deku the disliked underdog against the popular rival, everybody sees that Deku is far more likable than Bakugou.
If it wasn't for this, Bakugou would be one of the worst characters, not one of the best.
If it wasn't for this, Bakugou would be one of the worst characters, not one of the best.
Veelk, I would be interested in reading your impressions on Kingdom one day =D
Man, OP had the worst timeskip I've ever read. Why would you put the characters against such weak villains (weak in all senses) for their redebut? Damn.
USS was fucking awesome, but the arc itself was too short and not climatic enough to be compared to other high points in shonen IMO.
Poodlestrike
Banned
The whole confrontation with
was hype as fuck. One Piece's highs probably won't be topped any time soon, but I'd put that whole confrontation on par.
Honestly though, the one thing that really sticks out to me in my memory from One Piece was the battle at Marineford.
All for One
Honestly though, the one thing that really sticks out to me in my memory from One Piece was the battle at Marineford.
I agree, best part of the series for me.
Marineford might be the single greatest arc in any battle manga.
The whole Sabaody Archipelago --> Impel Down --> Marineford sequence was incredible. The kind of climax you can only build after 500 chapters.
Aaronrules380
Member
Seems weird to dock one piece for its female characters and ignore hxh where I have a hard time remembering a single fight involving a female (I think we had the female spiders fight irrelevant mooks, and I guess Biscuit did too, but that's still a lot less than One Piece, and I can count the entire number of even remotely important female hxh characters on my fingers)
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Biscuit will fuck you up, bro.
Ratio. Hunter X Hunter rarely includes female characters, but when it does, it doesn't treat them as any lesser than it's males.
Not only does One Piece include way more female characters, have them fight a lot less, there are plenty of unspoken rules like the ones I mentioned. Female characters can only fight other females, female characters can't get as injured. It's also the fact that female characters are primarily there as fanservice, while that's not the case with HxH, who has many female characters that aren't meant to titulate. And if we're counting the anime, where Pitou was straight up turned female, then we have one of the most hands down brutal fights where female character is REALLY in the thick of it. I'd like for more female characters in HxH, but OP's problem is that it treats women as fundamentally different from men.
So yeah, I'd say HxH is much better at treating women as just another part of it's world than One Piece.
Aaronrules380
Member
HxH have an absolutely awful ratio of male to female characters shouldn't be a plus in its favor imo.
It does. Yet somehow still manages to treat them fairly when they come around. It wins. I'm not saying it isn't problematic itself, but treating female characters as regular combatants is more important than just having a large volume of them. It'd not perfect, I'd vastly prefer having a few good ones than what OP does.
Besdies, you say this as if somehow OP doesn't have an awful ratio. Other than amazon lily, for every female character it introduces, there are atleast 5 men or more. it applies the smurette principle as a regular rule.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Veelk's basically making a quality vs. quantity argument. HxH has few women, but treats them much better. I'm inclined to agree with him, honestly. One Piece treats its female characters really poorly. Remember when Robin was an unstoppable badass?
Every redeemed villain gets nerfed in manga though. Vegeta used to be a badass.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Redemption nerf is a thing, yeah, but Robin's notable for being one of the only female characters who actually went mano a mano with a male character at any point.
And even that fight was entirely offscreen. One piece never had anything like what I just saw with Uravity and Explosion man.
I'd say 70% of the problems I currently have with one piece didn't really exist in the beginning, or it was so minor and so underdone that it hadn't become a problem yet. Less fan service, more fights for women, more two-dimensional villains, better motivations, less characters to juggle, more fleshed out and un-predictable character traits. I'd say that since Enies Lobby or so, the cast's become too big for Oda to handle, and everything has kind of spiraled towards feeling pre-packaged. Everyone's pretty predictable.
There was actually a time where One Piece was known for its female characters, and how Oda treated them compared to say, Bleach or Naruto at the time. It became immensely depressing to watch all of that deteriorate.
That said, I still really love One Piece, purely due to Oda's world building and the way that he finishes arcs. The world is still immensely enjoyable, and I feel that Oda always has a plan for where he's going.
As I've said, MHA hasn't really reached the highs of one piece, but it excels in avoiding a lot of it's lows. At the point we're at now, I do kind of worry that he's introducing a bit too many characters, but he's done a good job of keeping the core cast as competent and front-and-center as possible. I definitely look forward to MHA more than I do One Piece right now, that's for sure.
There was actually a time where One Piece was known for its female characters, and how Oda treated them compared to say, Bleach or Naruto at the time. It became immensely depressing to watch all of that deteriorate.
That said, I still really love One Piece, purely due to Oda's world building and the way that he finishes arcs. The world is still immensely enjoyable, and I feel that Oda always has a plan for where he's going.
As I've said, MHA hasn't really reached the highs of one piece, but it excels in avoiding a lot of it's lows. At the point we're at now, I do kind of worry that he's introducing a bit too many characters, but he's done a good job of keeping the core cast as competent and front-and-center as possible. I definitely look forward to MHA more than I do One Piece right now, that's for sure.
One Piece fell into the timeskip trap. I didn't think it would but it did. Hasn't been the same since. I also think Oda has too many plans now and can't fucking focus an arc anymore; I long for the days when the narrative was limited to only a few perspectives on a single island.
Impel Down was great because it was just Luffy and a bunch of former villains and new heavyweights. It shook up the formula. I didn't miss the crew at all.
Part of why MHA hasn't reached the heights of One Piece, I think, is because Midoriya's story is really only just getting started. Horikoshi is being realistic about his power progression, so right now he's still a first year, and not even the top of his class. He's only just beginning to step out of All-Might's shadow. It'll be a while before he can go one on one with a top tier threat.
Impel Down was great because it was just Luffy and a bunch of former villains and new heavyweights. It shook up the formula. I didn't miss the crew at all.
Part of why MHA hasn't reached the heights of One Piece, I think, is because Midoriya's story is really only just getting started. Horikoshi is being realistic about his power progression, so right now he's still a first year, and not even the top of his class. He's only just beginning to step out of All-Might's shadow. It'll be a while before he can go one on one with a top tier threat.
Maybe it was a Coke vs Pepsi scenario, and Deku loves All Might but not Endeavor x).
The problem with timeskips is that they're un-earned character progression. Jump loves em because they get license new statues and toys and it's a big event they can tease and hype up. But it's literally cutting out the core of a story.
To say that a character isn't strong enough for something, look away, and then show that they are, is to undercut the point of telling a story. Stories are meant to explain how someone got strong enough to tackle something.
It's not that there's zero place for a time-skip, it's just that usually a timeskip has to be a total break from the previous story and then introduce a brand new story with different stakes after that. Most shounen time skips don't do that. As soon as we come up against a stronger villian, we wonder why there was a timeskip in the first place.
Yes, and this is fine. That said, the end of the most recent arc was probably one of the hypest moments in recent memory for me and was a huge pay-off for a lot of subtle setups, so I know the author has it in him to deliver the goods.
To say that a character isn't strong enough for something, look away, and then show that they are, is to undercut the point of telling a story. Stories are meant to explain how someone got strong enough to tackle something.
It's not that there's zero place for a time-skip, it's just that usually a timeskip has to be a total break from the previous story and then introduce a brand new story with different stakes after that. Most shounen time skips don't do that. As soon as we come up against a stronger villian, we wonder why there was a timeskip in the first place.
Yes, and this is fine. That said, the end of the most recent arc was probably one of the hypest moments in recent memory for me and was a huge pay-off for a lot of subtle setups, so I know the author has it in him to deliver the goods.
Now that would be a interesting dynamic we didn't see: Deku meeting a famous/important hero he studied but disliked somehow.
A lot of people make this sentiment, but I personally disagree. We can definitely agree that One Piece has a much larger scale to it (atleast the point where I'm at), not just in number of characters, number of plots, but also the stakes. Every arc has an entire civilization threatened with death or tyranny by some super big bad villain, while the most high stakes thing that happened in MHA thus far is that a rag tag bunch of villains tried to assassinate All Might and almost killed the class and some teachers along the way.
But the 'high' I chase is the engagement high. How much I care or am interested in how a fight turns out. In this regard, Shoto vs Deku ranks higher for me than almost any fight in the entirety of one piece. I can probably list the fights that are even remotely in this league on one hand: Luffy vs Usopp, the Marine Ford war, and MAYBE Luffy vs Lucci as that was for Robin. Everything else isn't even close. Like, most recently, I can't say I'd have cared one iota if Doflamingo had succeeded in shredding Dressrosa for good. I probably won't care whatever Judge has cooked up either.
So that's just me, but Shoto's development itself is a major high.
Heh....well, this is awkward, but I'm gonna have to....defend...one piece here?
The problems that you describe with Time Skips are totally right in most other shonen....but with how One Piece was set up, it mitigates a lot of those issues. For one, you're right that we skip over the explanations of how someone develops a skill...but since when has one piece ever done that? All the abiltiies that the strawhats come up are developped offscreen, and the most we get is a flashback of "oh, and Usopp made me this climatact" and stuff without actually seeing the characters get proficient with it. We don't even get details on how Zoro developed his 3 face technique, just that he's always in the background 'training'. This is a criticism of One Piece for me, sure, but a Time Skip doesn't exasperate these issues in any way. It's in line with them if anything.
There's also the fact that the characters we're facing aren't 'new' by and large, but established giants of the One Piece world. Doflamingo has been there since the early days and things have shown that pretimeskip strawhats are way down on the pecking order in terms of how powerful they are in relation to the top tier movers of the world. Now, you could argue that you don't need a time skip for them to gain skills, and I'd agree I suppose, but having a time skip gives them an excuse for a BIG jump that can lend more plausibility to the idea that the strawhats can now take on the big leagues.
For me, while it dragged it's ass getting there, Dressrosa was what the time skip should ahve been more or less from the beginning. The Fishman Island arc and Punkhazard had them set up against opponents that were so weak that there was little tension to be had. Dressrosa was finally impacting the world by taking out a major player and showing us a more nuanced metric of how strong the straw hats are now that they're stronger. I still say that Doflamingo was the actual winner of that fight, since Luffy only survived because the citizens of Dressrosa played keepaway with his body after the first Gear 4th. If it were not for third party intervention, Doflamingo would have recovered first and killed a helpless Luffy. So if Doflamingo is still stronger than Luffy by a hair, then we now have a good metric for how the rest of the New World is, and why Luffy actually did need 2 years of training just to compete.
One of my favorite moments in the mangaWhen Deku first meets Endeavour
Just puttng the Number 2 hero on blast
His face looks so mad
He did with Endeavor, he was shocked when Todoroki told him about his childhood.
On Highs: It's hard to explain what I mean, but I definitely don't mean physical scale when it comes to moments that stick out to me. I'm not really one for spectacle or the size of a conflict. It's usually the combination of emotional stakes and art. For me, the highs in one piece were things like the walk to arlong park, Luffy beating crocodile and the rain falling, and Robin's declaration of wanting to live, and even the different flashbacks for each crew member. Oda nailed these. Sure, he drags things on, he overly manipulates emotions, he does things we know are inevitable. But there's just something in his writing and his art where these moments just hit you in the gut. They're primal. I'm sure it's a subjective thing, but it's definitely resonated with enough people.
Actually, I think most of the moments I've mentioned were so impactful with the general populace that Oda's constantly pressured to re-create them. Part of the problem after the timeskip is that a lot of it is just retreading old ground. There's a lot of repeated story beats, and none of them can recapture the magic,
Back to MHA for a second, someone else said that MHA is just a slower burn, and I couldn't agree more. It's a good thing, because like you said, the writer is doing a good job of making sure each moment has the appropriate emotional stakes behind them. It's just that none of them, at least at the point you're at, were really as emotionally impactful as what I found in one piece. But that's OK. It's simply because we're not there yet. The writer has done a good job of making even these relatively small moments impactful, which is going to help him in the long run.
It's really hard to explain what I mean, because it still sounds like I'm talking about the size of the conflict, but I really mean the depth. It's obviously all subjective. That said, this is a tough conversation because of spoilers. I think MHA had it's first "major moment" some place beyond where you've read. You're really in for a treat.
On timeskips: I was talking about timeskips in general, not necessarily One Piece's... for much the same reasons you mentioned. That said, I still think One Piece didn't really need one, nor do I think most shounens need them. I think it's just marketing 95% of the time. Editors fuck around with stories all the time at Jump.
I feel I know a show is doing well when even the archtypes I normally dislike are ones I'm engaged with. In many other shows, I'd hate Bakugo for being a shallow hardass, but his arrogance and viciousness is mixed in with a genuine desire to be the best on fair terms, intelligence, and serious insecurity issues I have no doubt will be delved in deeper.
He's still a total asshat, but he's an asshat whose rage I find atleast interesting to follow, and that's something I can't say for many berserkers.
And I want to again emphasize how the cast of side characters is just great. You can often pick out who the 'important' characters are in the mix of lesser ones, who aren't given as much distinction, but I find almost every side character to be one I would love to see in the main cast. The only ones I don't like so much are grape kid and naval laser guy.
(seriously, naval laser....?)
He's still a total asshat, but he's an asshat whose rage I find atleast interesting to follow, and that's something I can't say for many berserkers.
And I want to again emphasize how the cast of side characters is just great. You can often pick out who the 'important' characters are in the mix of lesser ones, who aren't given as much distinction, but I find almost every side character to be one I would love to see in the main cast. The only ones I don't like so much are grape kid and naval laser guy.
(seriously, naval laser....?)
With some adjustments, his quirk is pretty damn good. He is a coward though. Mineta also has a pretty powerful quirk for a hero.
How far are you now?
Normally I wouldn't like the broody overpowered rival character but Todoroki has a very compelling backstory for why he is the way he is, and his power feels earned. He's also a really dependable guy on the inside and he's never been annoying. If you need somebody to watch your back Todoroki is number one.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
So I'm calling it now, Naval Laser guy is going to have a moment, a critical 'save/ruin the day' kind of moment where everyone forgets he exists and he just beasts on people because lasers>everything else. He is going to be the lynchpin of one really important thing and then never be seen again
I meant someone he disliked before becoming a hero himself. He pretty much adores everyone.
Midoriya just got paired with Tape Guy, who I had completely forgotten about for a while.
The great thing about this series is that anyone could be elevated in any given arc.
I'd like to see Kendou Itsuka get some shine too, but Class 2B is forever second tier unfortunately.
We still don't know who #3 is.
The great thing about this series is that anyone could be elevated in any given arc.
I'd like to see Kendou Itsuka get some shine too, but Class 2B is forever second tier unfortunately.
We still don't know who #3 is.
Poodlestrike
Banned
The thing that initially impressed me about Bakugou is that he turned out to (very nearly) live up to his own hype. Every other time there's some asshole bully who seems super powerful right at the start, they're there so the hero can body them after their first powerup, if that. Fake!Salamander at the start of Fairy Tail, that bodybuilder guy in the karate club in HSDK, etc. Bakugou is very nearly as good as he thought he was. Defied conventions a little.
Then the way they play with his insecurities, the way that he handled the sudden threats to his ego (poorly), his sincere desire to be a hero despite his um rough personality... he's an interesting figure to unpackage. I wouldn't want to have a beer with the guy, but I hugely enjoy reading him.
I still don't like Bakugou. Unlike Todoroki, he's not reliable, and he is selfish. Part of his character is that he never had to work hard for anything before UA.
I do however appreciate how Bakugou fills that real life trope about a super gifted student, a big fish in a small pond, entering an elite school and suddenly finding out that he's not the best anymore and ends up having a lot of trouble dealing with that.
I do however appreciate how Bakugou fills that real life trope about a super gifted student, a big fish in a small pond, entering an elite school and suddenly finding out that he's not the best anymore and ends up having a lot of trouble dealing with that.
The issue Bakugo faces in this story is that Deku is growing faster then he is in such a short amount of time.
Exactly. Todoroki will put his life on the line for you. It's impressive that he's even such a good person considering his home life and the parenting he received. That backstory could just as easily have been his villain origin.
Damn, now I kind of want to see an alternate reality with a villainous Todoroki.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
I really like everyone in the main cast, and even quite a few of the supporting characters, but in regards to the cast, I can already see a huge problem that is only going to get worse as the series progresses. The cast is just way too big. It's the same problem that ended up killing Naruto over time, and the thing that killed Bleach almost immediately. Don't get me wrong, I think Hero handles the supporting characters excellently. I love how you can see friend groups form with certain side characters and main heroes. But there is just too many, and you can kind of already see how he handles it, by rotating them in and out of certain scenarios. The end result will be, after a point, a lot of characters are going to feel disappointingly underdeveloped, like Naruto. I'm sure someone will say, "nah, everyone so far is pretty great, even the most inconsequential of them, like sugar guy!' to which I say, "yes, everyone in Class A is pretty great. What about Class B though?" I don't think it's a very apparent problem now, but I am sure it'll have a lot of negative repercussions later down the line.
You know, I think I figured it out, what it is exactly about the side characters I like, and it's something I probably should have seen before, but didn't. I kept thinking of them as superheroes and tried to match them up to archtypes in the superhero world.
No, what makes all these characters work is how they match up to kids you know/knew from school. You had the wierd kid (Froppy), the kid with anger issues (Bakugo), the cool nice guy (Kirishima), the idiot (naval laser....), and so on.
It totally captured the actual feel of a school. Not in a "Jock/nerd/cheeleader" sort of way, but the basic personalities you'd find in schools.
No, what makes all these characters work is how they match up to kids you know/knew from school. You had the wierd kid (Froppy), the kid with anger issues (Bakugo), the cool nice guy (Kirishima), the idiot (naval laser....), and so on.
It totally captured the actual feel of a school. Not in a "Jock/nerd/cheeleader" sort of way, but the basic personalities you'd find in schools.
I disagree. Horikoshi broke the old formula and made his own. I think it was USJ that made me realize it, when he didn't pair Midoriya with Ochako or Bakugou or any of the established characters and instead put him with Tsuyu and Mineta, who were nobody at that point. The rotations work and can work indefinitely.
Class B is mostly there for comic relief and to fill out the scenes and scenarios that require a large number of characters. Also for Kendou, who is great, and she hasn't even done anything.
Froppy is mostly just weird in appearance, she's actually very responsible and mature. There's an omake later on that explores her home life and her life before UA.
Her parents are always working so Froppy basically raised her younger siblings, cooking for them all while studying to get into UA.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
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