chazmonkey
Member
I love these kinds of threads. Please do more!
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My research into the development and cut material in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.
- Thread starter Mama Robotnik
- Start date
Neon_Icarus
Member
Absolutely excellent work as always, Mama. I think most of us can agree that Prime 3 was the culmination in the series' art design. I can only wonder what delights Retro will offer us with the Wii U.
To give Iwata some credit, we don't really know in what shape the game was in 2006, apart from that E3 demo. Also, (as the translator for that interview), I'd like to point out that Iwata's comment was pretty ambivalent. I think it's pretty clear that it wasn't a comment on the quality of the core game itself, but more about the lack of polish in some areas and attention to detail.
I think it's pretty clear that the finished product we got in 2007 was of very high quality, even if some of the design decisions (increased linearity, more emphasis on shooting) might not sit well with some of us. And I doubt these decisions can be blamed on the increased development time...
EDIT:
The thing with Japanese culture is that when you manage to make something really successful (like Sakamoto's team has with Metroid, Warioware, Rhythm Heaven, Tomodachi Collection etc.), people start treating you like a genius who is beyond criticism. Of course, this can be a good thing, since sometimes games can really benefit by being developed with one, strong vision. Other times, it can be beneficial to have someone steer the project in the opposite direction, when the "genius" in question is clearly blind to his own flaws (bad writing in the case of Sakamoto).
If you want to see an example of a similar situation, look at Studio Ghibli. Miyazaki's moves took a huge dip in quality after he won an Oscar for Spirited Away (and some say, even after Princess Mononoke became the biggest box office hit in Japanese history). Previously his bad habits (nonsensical narrative) were reigned in by the studio co-founder Isao Takahata and his producer Toshio Suzuki. After he was decreed a genius, he could do basically whatever he wanted, and the results speak for themselves. Ghost in the Shell director Mamoru Oshii is a very similar case.
I'm sure Nintendo will be more critical towards Sakamoto's future high-budget Metroid title (if there will be one), but I doubt they will pay attention to the things we would want them to. It's most likely that the only thing to suffer is the budget, not Sakamoto's characterisation of Samus.
To give Iwata some credit, we don't really know in what shape the game was in 2006, apart from that E3 demo. Also, (as the translator for that interview), I'd like to point out that Iwata's comment was pretty ambivalent. I think it's pretty clear that it wasn't a comment on the quality of the core game itself, but more about the lack of polish in some areas and attention to detail.
I think it's pretty clear that the finished product we got in 2007 was of very high quality, even if some of the design decisions (increased linearity, more emphasis on shooting) might not sit well with some of us. And I doubt these decisions can be blamed on the increased development time...
EDIT:
The thing with Japanese culture is that when you manage to make something really successful (like Sakamoto's team has with Metroid, Warioware, Rhythm Heaven, Tomodachi Collection etc.), people start treating you like a genius who is beyond criticism. Of course, this can be a good thing, since sometimes games can really benefit by being developed with one, strong vision. Other times, it can be beneficial to have someone steer the project in the opposite direction, when the "genius" in question is clearly blind to his own flaws (bad writing in the case of Sakamoto).
If you want to see an example of a similar situation, look at Studio Ghibli. Miyazaki's moves took a huge dip in quality after he won an Oscar for Spirited Away (and some say, even after Princess Mononoke became the biggest box office hit in Japanese history). Previously his bad habits (nonsensical narrative) were reigned in by the studio co-founder Isao Takahata and his producer Toshio Suzuki. After he was decreed a genius, he could do basically whatever he wanted, and the results speak for themselves. Ghost in the Shell director Mamoru Oshii is a very similar case.
I'm sure Nintendo will be more critical towards Sakamoto's future high-budget Metroid title (if there will be one), but I doubt they will pay attention to the things we would want them to. It's most likely that the only thing to suffer is the budget, not Sakamoto's characterisation of Samus.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
It's incredible how rich all of this content is. I loved all of the threads.
Nope that's Dark Samus model.
Cygnus X-1
Member
Mama, you're SO amazing. Stellar job.
shadyspace
Banned
I'd rather they start an entirely new Metroid series.
Nocturnowl
Member
This thread ends the research into the prime series with a bigger finale than Prime 3 itself, fascinating information once again.
I was looking forward to this one the most, as i've always thought Prime 3 to be the weakest (but by no means bad) yet it seemed to have many ideas at the ready, partly due to the multiple world setup that allowed for numerous histories, I'm not sure that I even noticed all those Reptile statue heads in the Bryyo fire area were different from each other or at least I didn't think them to have any greater meaning.
The real mystery that is still unsolved is whose big idea it was to make Mogenar such a git to fight, the hypermode version of that fight was maddening.
Now if someone wants to dig through more of Retro Studios stuff for DKCR tidbits that would be swell.....it's not happening is it?
I was looking forward to this one the most, as i've always thought Prime 3 to be the weakest (but by no means bad) yet it seemed to have many ideas at the ready, partly due to the multiple world setup that allowed for numerous histories, I'm not sure that I even noticed all those Reptile statue heads in the Bryyo fire area were different from each other or at least I didn't think them to have any greater meaning.
The real mystery that is still unsolved is whose big idea it was to make Mogenar such a git to fight, the hypermode version of that fight was maddening.
Now if someone wants to dig through more of Retro Studios stuff for DKCR tidbits that would be swell.....it's not happening is it?
Oh wow, what could have been. What could have been.
Also, "make it as good as Twilight Princess"? I just threw up a little in my mouth.
That makes me seriously ponder just how magnificent this game might actually have been, until that trash statement potentially infected development.
Twilight Princess feels overdone, while I might call MP3 half-baked. Not a bad game at all, but just lackluster compared to the first two Primes.
Also, "make it as good as Twilight Princess"? I just threw up a little in my mouth.
That makes me seriously ponder just how magnificent this game might actually have been, until that trash statement potentially infected development.
Twilight Princess feels overdone, while I might call MP3 half-baked. Not a bad game at all, but just lackluster compared to the first two Primes.
Late on this one, but thanks for all of these great threads Mama Robotnik!
This is what I respect most about Retro, that they take everything they do so seriously. I remember reading how dedicated they were to finding out what it was that made the original DKC games work so well, and the game they crafted as a result showed how much they figured it out.
This is what I respect most about Retro, that they take everything they do so seriously. I remember reading how dedicated they were to finding out what it was that made the original DKC games work so well, and the game they crafted as a result showed how much they figured it out.
CrunchyFrog
Member
Impeccable research as always, mama robotnik. They need to gather all of this into like an ultimania or something. I'd buy it.
I really don't understand the backlash about the "make it as good as Twilight Princess" comment. Iwata was talking about the game as it was in mid/late 2006, not the final product. Twilight Princess was undoubtedly a very well polished game even if it's not your favorite Zelda. The extra half-year or so only allowed them to add to the game, and there are actually some specific examples of what they added if you read the translated Iwata Asks above.
I think Metroid Prime 3 might be my favorite Wii game actually. You had a western studio who highly values graphics and art design, working on a system that they would've skipped over if they weren't first-party, overseen by Japanese publisher constantly pushing them on gameplay details and intuitive controls, and the result was a smoothly streamlined and artistically impressive experience. I like Metroid Prime 1 more, as the open exploration feel was obviously more focused on there, but there's really nothing else on the Wii like Metroid Prime 3.
I really don't know what happened with Other M though. I guess Iwata was a lot more deferential to Sakamoto in that case, which is unfortunate. The level of detail in that game is eons behind any Prime or even [insert your least favorite 3D Zelda here].
I think Metroid Prime 3 might be my favorite Wii game actually. You had a western studio who highly values graphics and art design, working on a system that they would've skipped over if they weren't first-party, overseen by Japanese publisher constantly pushing them on gameplay details and intuitive controls, and the result was a smoothly streamlined and artistically impressive experience. I like Metroid Prime 1 more, as the open exploration feel was obviously more focused on there, but there's really nothing else on the Wii like Metroid Prime 3.
I really don't know what happened with Other M though. I guess Iwata was a lot more deferential to Sakamoto in that case, which is unfortunate. The level of detail in that game is eons behind any Prime or even [insert your least favorite 3D Zelda here].
dancrane212
Member
I'm glad you linked to this thread from the Prime 1 one, I must have missed it the first go around.
As much as I love Prime 3 (favorite of the series) I would have loved to see that proposed opening end up in the game. The GF ship stuff, while cool on a lore level, would have worked better as a breather after a big "event" like that boss fight and the ship blasting away Kraid could have been a great tutorial into it's mechanics.
As much as I love Prime 3 (favorite of the series) I would have loved to see that proposed opening end up in the game. The GF ship stuff, while cool on a lore level, would have worked better as a breather after a big "event" like that boss fight and the ship blasting away Kraid could have been a great tutorial into it's mechanics.
I just want Kraid in 3d
Mama Robotnik
Member
Can someone who has played Metroid Prime 3 more recently than I, let me know if this sequence actually appears in game?:
(Its from the portfolio site of a former Retro staffer, who has worked on a number of other interesting projects).
(Its from the portfolio site of a former Retro staffer, who has worked on a number of other interesting projects).
Neon_Icarus
Member
Fimbulvetr
Member
Can someone who has played Metroid Prime 3 more recently than I, let me know if this sequence actually appears in game?:
(Its from the portfolio site of a former Retro staffer, who has worked on a number of other interesting projects).
Nope.
Charging of the weapon, not a purposeful delay
that scene isn't in the game.
btw, after reading those interviews excerpts, i'm betting that a lot of the opportunities to expand the backstory of the games that ended up being scrapped were cockblocked by either Sakamoto and/or Iwata.
we know that Sakamoto is the "creator" of the series so he has a big pull for any decision made concerning it (especially at the time before Other M happened) and he could have easily shot down any new ideas because they conflicted with what he has in his mind for the series (remember the retcon article that was retconned itself later?). i would have supported him if it wasn't for the fact he can't deliver anything better anymore (what happened with SM-era sakamoto? like in some jokes, he's nintendo's george lucas)
Iwata probably had the same hard on for Aonuma as with Sakamoto back when they were making TP and thought it was "the best game ever", so when he saw mp3, he thought it sucked. nice going dude. both games ended up as weak installments because you lashed at the wrong party.
part of the reason i don't want another metroid from them is that they'll get cockblocked again and we'll have a thread like this with the hypothetical game's concept art looking way better than the final game a few years after it comes out.
btw, after reading those interviews excerpts, i'm betting that a lot of the opportunities to expand the backstory of the games that ended up being scrapped were cockblocked by either Sakamoto and/or Iwata.
we know that Sakamoto is the "creator" of the series so he has a big pull for any decision made concerning it (especially at the time before Other M happened) and he could have easily shot down any new ideas because they conflicted with what he has in his mind for the series (remember the retcon article that was retconned itself later?). i would have supported him if it wasn't for the fact he can't deliver anything better anymore (what happened with SM-era sakamoto? like in some jokes, he's nintendo's george lucas)
Iwata probably had the same hard on for Aonuma as with Sakamoto back when they were making TP and thought it was "the best game ever", so when he saw mp3, he thought it sucked. nice going dude. both games ended up as weak installments because you lashed at the wrong party.
part of the reason i don't want another metroid from them is that they'll get cockblocked again and we'll have a thread like this with the hypothetical game's concept art looking way better than the final game a few years after it comes out.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
I figure the idea may have been to show a 'steady evolution' of Ridley throughout the game, going by the three separate designs.
I too would have liked to see the 'reverse engineering' of the suit, but I do think the 'Retro universe' would be a lot darker than Nintendo can / will do with it. I mean, that Metroid Prime / Dark Samus skeleton (which too seems to go trough evolution of a sort, which might have made it a consistent theme for the game) is straight up nightmare fuel. So, I'm not too displeased to not have it.
But something bothers me while reading this: those huge corpses on the pirate homeworld, I figured those were 'failed' Omega pirates and Kraid (the big one with the hole in it), but Retro could just as easily have made Omega Metroids from them. Since they occur in the same roon with a lot of metroids (I think), maybe there is a link there?
oh, and can we expect one for Metroid Other M as well?
("hey where you'all going")Your evidence for Iwata's intervention resulting in a worse game being...? If he said "make it more accessible" or something then maybe you would have a point, but all we know is that he said to add more polish.
I really like Retro and think they deserve a lot of creative freedom, but when the worship (not talking about you, just in general) for them gets the point that people act like any input from NCL automatically taints their games it's too much.
Mama Robotnik
Member
Could be the reason it was cut. I'll edit it into the OP later.
MrTroubleMaker
Member
:O how did I miss this
thanks
thanks
Mama Robotnik
Member
A new addition, edited into the OP for completion's sake:
Unused sequence from the Omega Ridley boss battle
Love the reflections in the smooth phazon floor.
Unused sequence from the Omega Ridley boss battle
Love the reflections in the smooth phazon floor.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Beautiful. Such a tease though...
Love the reflections in the smooth phazon floor.
As do I. Holy crap.
A new addition, edited into the OP for completion's sake:
Unused sequence from the Omega Ridley boss battle
Love the reflections in the smooth phazon floor.
Wii can do that? Goddamn.
The Xtortionist
Member
I think I mentioned it in one of Mama's other Prime threads, but some of Retro's unused designs are fucking terrifying. A Retro Studios sci-fi action/horror game would be so damn great.
Mama Robotnik
Member
It does seem exceptionally detailed and fluid. I know the games look amazing anyway but this does seem a step above. Maybe the artist made the animation with a dev version of the game or something. I don't remember MP3s reflections being quite so nice in game certainly.
Mama Robotnik
Member
Another bump to add a minor find:
Phaaze Galactic FMV
This animation accompanies the "Metroid Prime Trilogy - Behind the Scenes" documentary but does not appear to be attributable to anything that appeared in-game. One possibility is that it is an animation sequence that never made it into Metroid Prime 3. Another possibility is that its merely a detailed animation of Phaaze's place in the galaxy made specifically for the documentary - which is interesting in itself.
I've edited it into the OP.
Phaaze Galactic FMV
This animation accompanies the "Metroid Prime Trilogy - Behind the Scenes" documentary but does not appear to be attributable to anything that appeared in-game. One possibility is that it is an animation sequence that never made it into Metroid Prime 3. Another possibility is that its merely a detailed animation of Phaaze's place in the galaxy made specifically for the documentary - which is interesting in itself.
I've edited it into the OP.
Oh and firstly, again thank you so very much for that thread and the others Mama Robotnik
Unused?
I thought that I saw something like that just before fighting Ridley....only with ingame model instead of cg (seriously mp3:c engine can't render that on a stock Wii)
Also regarding that Iwata comment, I'd say it probably relates to the state of the game at the time or how they viewed Zelda TP (seriously that game had some major cuts in it I believe, I mean the engine of Zelda TP can handle so much more than ever shows up onscreen that you have to wonder if something way bigger wasn't cut away). Or it's just how NCL view Retro or something...
Now onto the comparison with Other M...
What can I say that I didn't say before...
About the artstyle and all the research made by the artists, Retro's Metroid is like heaven compared to the drab hell that was in Other M (and even then Retro's artists are among the best and Project M is a collaborative effort so that might explain the huge differences).
Thanks to MamaRobotnik no we have a 100% proof that (if we didn't know that before) Retro's Metroid was a labor of love and they were extremely dedicated and selfless about it.
I mean I don't think I'd want anyone else to work on something I created personnally, if they have that dedication and labour they could treat any project successfully with the greatest respect for the source material.
Any series you want to revive and treat with a more than awesome revival? Why, ask Retro!
You gotta wonder though what they'd come up with a new IP with the ideas they have....
Seriously look at Donkey Kong Country Return, it's the kind of love the Donkey Kong serie never got since Rare's highest high!
Let's do like everyone else and make as if that collaboration with SPD and Team Ninja never happened.
A new addition, edited into the OP for completion's sake:
Unused sequence from the Omega Ridley boss battle
Love the reflections in the smooth phazon floor.
Unused?
I thought that I saw something like that just before fighting Ridley....only with ingame model instead of cg (seriously mp3:c engine can't render that on a stock Wii)
Also regarding that Iwata comment, I'd say it probably relates to the state of the game at the time or how they viewed Zelda TP (seriously that game had some major cuts in it I believe, I mean the engine of Zelda TP can handle so much more than ever shows up onscreen that you have to wonder if something way bigger wasn't cut away). Or it's just how NCL view Retro or something...
Now onto the comparison with Other M...
What can I say that I didn't say before...
About the artstyle and all the research made by the artists, Retro's Metroid is like heaven compared to the drab hell that was in Other M (and even then Retro's artists are among the best and Project M is a collaborative effort so that might explain the huge differences).
Thanks to MamaRobotnik no we have a 100% proof that (if we didn't know that before) Retro's Metroid was a labor of love and they were extremely dedicated and selfless about it.
I mean I don't think I'd want anyone else to work on something I created personnally, if they have that dedication and labour they could treat any project successfully with the greatest respect for the source material.
Any series you want to revive and treat with a more than awesome revival? Why, ask Retro!
You gotta wonder though what they'd come up with a new IP with the ideas they have....
Seriously look at Donkey Kong Country Return, it's the kind of love the Donkey Kong serie never got since Rare's highest high!
Let's do like everyone else and make as if that collaboration with SPD and Team Ninja never happened.
Keep this stuff coming. MP3 was a master class in gaming, and crowned motion controls as king forever IMHO.
(fan boy rant ahoy):
I would love to see Retro do up a serious, tense Metroid ala Dead Space 1. The ideas aren't that dissimilar, I find DS1 to be the only other legitimate game using for the "lost in space environment, need power ups" well.
(fan boy rant ahoy):
I would love to see Retro do up a serious, tense Metroid ala Dead Space 1. The ideas aren't that dissimilar, I find DS1 to be the only other legitimate game using for the "lost in space environment, need power ups" well.
Mama Robotnik
Member
Ha I just checked on YouTube and you are right, its there!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4VZlEKWFZo
Much less detailed though. Its clearly a dev or CG test that was unused in the final game in the GIF them.
I do my best but its THEBABYTHEBABYOHMYGODADRAGONIKILLEDEIGHTTIMESALREADYPANICATTAK so hard.
Have you played the legendary System Shock 2? It is a prolonged exploration game in at environment of sustained dread. It has Metroid's prolonged sense of isolation in alien circumstances with a Metroidvania world of upgrades and advancement. It combines this with severe difficulty, challenging enemies, utterly amazing voice acting and writing, and diverse gameplay choices to really perfect the "lost in space environment" power up formula. Playing the first game is not requisite (I haven't). Cannot recommend the game enough. Its as absorbing, if not moreso, as Metroid Prime.
WiiredShawn
Member
The "make it as good as Twilight Princess" comment is interesting to me, because at first it suggests a cultural bias (Japanese team favored over American one), but at the same time, the translator above is right in saying we didn't know the quality of the demo shown to Iwata in 2006. In fairness, TP is really polished, especially when you just focus on discrete sections; the game only starts to show its faults when you pry into the finer details of its plot machinations and structural reliance on OoT.
Anyway, I have to echo the "good work" slogan, MamaRobotnik. Your research diligence and thoroughness would render you a top-tier games journalist. Hell, I think it would be worthwhile, if you could gain Nintendo's permission, to compile all of this information into a small book.
Anyway, I have to echo the "good work" slogan, MamaRobotnik. Your research diligence and thoroughness would render you a top-tier games journalist. Hell, I think it would be worthwhile, if you could gain Nintendo's permission, to compile all of this information into a small book.
Can someone who has played Metroid Prime 3 more recently than I, let me know if this sequence actually appears in game?:
(Its from the portfolio site of a former Retro staffer, who has worked on a number of other interesting projects).
Just wondering, did you happen to save the original video file when you made that gif? I was looking for the source so I could make a higher-quality WebM out of the video, but it seems that Nintendo had it taken down from Vimeo.
Joe Prodigy
Member
Just went through and read all your Prime threads, OP. Amazing work seems like an understatement. Thanks for making these. It's like putting my favorite series in a whole new light.
POWERSPHERE
Member
What an amazing group of words
The day a new Metroid is unveiled from Retro again there will be a collective cheer at the series return from it's temporary hiatus after Corruption.
So many ideas, so much well thought out content in such intricate depth. In someways Retro out Nintendo'd Nintendo with the Metroid IP in regards to attention to detail. Frankly the cut content itself makes Metroid Other M look amateurish by comparison at best.
So many ideas, so much well thought out content in such intricate depth. In someways Retro out Nintendo'd Nintendo with the Metroid IP in regards to attention to detail. Frankly the cut content itself makes Metroid Other M look amateurish by comparison at best.
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