Ninja Scooter
Member
Exum is only a year older, and missed an entire season. It's not that unreasonable to judge them similarly in terms of how productive they are.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
NBA Offseason 2017 |OT| Only Big Ballers Allowed *please pay $495 to be a Big Baller
- Thread starter Jarate
- Start date
Exum is only a year older, and missed an entire season. It's not that unreasonable to judge them similarly in terms of how productive they are.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Donovan Mitchell gonna be awesome
Lionel Richie
Member
Crowder by TS%
Year 1 - .491
Year 2 - .551
Year 3 - .517
Year 4 - .565
Year 5 - .613
He had a hard year in his third one, but other than that he has improved in every year.
Fair enough, I guess I underrated Exum a bit because honestly I forgot how young he is lol. I still think if you had to pick one of him or Brown right now, it's not really a complicated choice though.
Oh shit that's right. I was looking at his rookie season.
Nonetheless jaylen showed more promise I'm, but Dante seems to still have that explosive first step and looks more confident so far.
I mean delving further into that Dante as a pg averaged 3 or so assists per 36 to his 2.3 TO. He also declined at 3fg to under 30%.
He's still young and he has a lot of potential, but jaylens mechanics, explosiveness, defensive upside, etc. Are all far more enticing.
He's still young and he has a lot of potential, but jaylens mechanics, explosiveness, defensive upside, etc. Are all far more enticing.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Why is Jerry Sloan at summer league games?
Does he just not know a life outside basketball?
Does he just not know a life outside basketball?
Maybe. But thats an oppinion on future development its hardly tangible fact and doesn't represent who each player is right at this very moment.
Having a good TS% is a better indicator of shot selection combined with shooting efficiency. Most players improve their shot selection as they gain experience.
I don't see how you can argue he's a comparable 3pt shooter because he's improved his TS%. His 3pt% is the best stat to evaluate his 3 point shooting (especially when we're comparing two role players that take similar spot up shots). He's been a below average 3pt shooter each of his first 5 years until last year.
Hmm not really. Those stats are hard facts and are his glaring weaknesses, which are troubling given his position.
Cornbread78
Member
Yeah, so, about the NY Knicks...
Any moves this off-season?
Any moves this off-season?
Why because he values winning more than money?
I mean - the Jazz drafted Exum as a top 5 pick and have felt the need to invest heavily in the PG position each and every year since then - that tells me a bit about their confidence in him (recognizing the injury is a big part of that). He's playing really well tonight though.
Next year's RFA class with the 2014 draft class is going to be fascinating. A ton of guys who, due to injury or other circumstances, we still don't really know what to expect career-wise. Will be interesting to see what kind of deals they get offered. Exum, Embiid, Lavine, Parker, Smart, Gordon, etc.
Next year's RFA class with the 2014 draft class is going to be fascinating. A ton of guys who, due to injury or other circumstances, we still don't really know what to expect career-wise. Will be interesting to see what kind of deals they get offered. Exum, Embiid, Lavine, Parker, Smart, Gordon, etc.
Lionel Richie
Member
I'm not following you here. TS% is a much better indicator of how good a player is on offense than 3pt%. A lot of players are much better 3 point shooters than Lebron, does that make them better on offense?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Yea Exum is too good for Summer League. But I'm glad he agreed to do it. He won't be going to the one in Vegas.
Parker, embiid, and Gordon are the best imo, but only gordon is safe to give significant money despite Vogel fucking him over a bit last season. I like smart fire but he's just worthless on offense so it's tough to gauge his value.
Whats more interesting is how the new Designated Player Exception (Supermax) will shape player movement. Guys can get it if they are traded in their first 4 seasons but not after. If a potential superstar is in a bad situation going into year 4 and feels like a lack of team success might cause them to miss out on an Allstar nod or All NBA recognition, they may be likely to try and force their way out.
Wiggins is a prime candidate for this type of move this season. Likely to be considered a 3rd option on a Twolves team that will be lucky to make the playoffs. If the Wolves aren't a top 3 team things could get really interesting really fast.
If you're just looking for someone to make a 3pt shot. 100% yes lebron isn't the best option. Lebron is special because he's a versatile guy who does most things really well. However he's not that great of a shooter.
You'll maybe get a couple games of Frank the Frenchman once his knee feels better and like it! That's your offseason, now shut up and buy season tickets.
Caddywompus
Member
They fired Phil, that was a move...
Cornbread78
Member
Crowder and Ingles are not LeBron. They are role players and always will be. That means they play off the ball more often than not. So what really matters to me is how much teams fear them when they are spotting up off the ball. Ingles is a better 3 point shooter based on career percentages.
But even if I were to go with your TS% argument. You conveniently left out that Ingles TS% was better in his first two years than Crowder.
2014-15 Ingles TS% - 53.3
2015-16 Ingles TS% - 57.2
2016-17 Ingles TS% - 60.4
2014-15 Crowder TS% - 51.7
2015-16 Crowder TS% - 56.5
2016-17 Crowder TS% - 61.3
Only last year, when, as I stated previously, Crowder had an outlier season shooting wise, has he had a better TS% than Ingles.
RedAssedApe
Banned
still waiting for that megaton deal bringing back the true #MightyIT to run the front office
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Hayward would be a fool to leave Donovan Mitchell.
Lionel Richie
Member
But I don't understand this, why would you want someone "to make a 3pt shot" rather than someone to score more efficiently?
I didn't "left out" that, I said that Crowder has been improving with each year in the league. Last year was not an outlier season, he has shown improvements that pointed in that direction. I also said that Ingles has been improving as well but Ingles is older.
Again, what matters to team is how efficiently they score the ball. Crowder was more efficient than Ingles last year and scored at a higher volume.
Because the 3pt shot is the most efficient way of scoring in basketball.
If someone shoots over 67% from 3, its literally impossible to outscore them on 2pt attempts with the same number of shots.
Lionel Richie
Member
TS% calculates how efficient the guy is at scoring the ball. If Crowder has a higher TS% than Ingles, he was more efficient scoring the ball. Period. If he did that by shooting from any fucking where it doesn't matter. He was last season a more efficient scorer.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Mitchell>>Fultz and Tatum
Because scoring efficiency is more important for star players. The role players job is to make life easier (by giving them space) for the star to do the efficient scoring. A role player is almost always going to be efficient anyway because their shots consist of taking threes and making transition layups.
The Cavs offense is elite because they put 40% 3 pt shooters around LeBron. Channing Frye's TS% this year was basically the same as Crowder, but defenses fear Frye much more because his 3 pt% is better. He's a better shooter. He's more likely to make a 3 point shot than Crowder. Crowder might get a few more layups in transition because he's more athletic than Frye, but Frye makes a star players life easier than Crowder does.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Hayward will decide tomorrow.
You get that DeAndre Jordan has a career 63.1% TS% right? That doesn't mean teams fear him from 3 point range. That doesn't mean he's a better scorer than guys with a lower TS%. It's his shot selection that impacts that stat more than anything. Crowder takes 3's and layups. Ingles occasionally runs a pick and roll which if he takes the shot, is generally a more difficult attempt. Crowder doesn't have the ball skills, him running a pick and roll isn't even an option.
Caddywompus
Member
I can't believe they are even entertaining that as a possibility, they deserve to repeat history if they make that move.
BadAss2961
Member
The NBA is where it's at now. You're filthy rich if you're just an average player at this point.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
The FO done everything possible to keep him around. He may just legitimately not want to be here.
Lionel Richie
Member
What? A guy who's an efficient scorer will give other dudes space because he needs to be guarded closely. We're not comparing like a Center and a PG, we're comparing 2 guys that play the same position. One is a more efficient scorer with a much higher USG%. You realize how counterintuitive it is for you to argue why the less efficient guy with a much smaller burden on offense is a BETTER offensive player?
Crowder had a higher TS% than Frye last year as well. Listen, the point of the game is obviously to score points. If you have a team that is more efficient about that regardless of how they do it, you have a better offense. You're building a narrative to justify picking one player over the other rather than going by their statistics. This is the post-Moneyball era man, don't do this.
Jordan is a center, he's irrelevant in a comparison between 2 SF. Can you refute the fact that last season season Crowder was a more efficient scorer at a higher volume than Ingles?
darkwing-buck
Member
bring him back and watch the city burn
Considering Steph Curry did that 6 times last year i would say its pretty relevant. Also TS% measures if you made shots but it is less effective at measuring a players "Offensive Gravity" then 3pt%
For instance the top 3 players in the NBA last season by TS% with over 1000 minutes were Tyson Chandler, Lucas Nogueira and Rudy Gobert. You arent exactly guarding those guys behind the 3 point line.
It absolutely is the most efficient shot.
Fun fact. Pau Gasol shot >67% from 3 in 19 games last season. It was low volume but still. Its impressive and shows how broken the 3pt shot is in the modern NBA
Edit: Kyle Korver was 67% or greater from 3 in 13 games last season on higher volume.
Edit 2: Alan Crabbe had 18 games where he acomplished the same feat.
Edit 3. Joe Ingles had 20 such games last season. In contrast Jae Crowder had 8
Hyperactivity
Banned
Total steal. After the consensus top 9 (no, no lauri), he was sort of on his own tier as the number 10 for me. Hornets would have totally taken him if Monk hadn't been available
BlackGhost
Banned
Hyperactivity
Banned
Also, if you guys want to get so into detail about which of Ingles or Crowder is a better scorer/shooter, looking into their percentages and attempt rates depending on where on the court they are, how contested the shot was, when it was shot in the shot clock etc. is probably going to be more useful
Lionel Richie
Member
What the flying fuck is "offensive gravity"? And if you use TS% without any context ignoring the position a guy plays, than yeah, it's not the most valid stat. But comparing 2 guys who play the same position? It shows who's more efficient scoring the ball. That's the guy you want.
I'm honestly baffled you're arguing that scoring the 3 at a higher clip is more important than scoring at a higher clip.
You're proving my point. Literally the most efficient shots are layups and FTs which is why you see those names. Noone is saying they are the best offensive players in the NBA.
You saying that 6 times in a season the best shooter in history achieved a certain mark doesn't mean it is more efficient than getting FTs or layups. It's just incorrect.
It's not. Given the percentages that actually obtain in the real world (under 36% league wide from 3), the dunk has been and will continue to be the most efficient shot in basketball.
Offensive Gravity: How much attention a player draws from the opposition defense just for being on the court.
Examples. 2017 League MVP Russell Westbrook is regularly drawing the attention of all 5 players whenever he is on the floor. In contrast his teammate Andre Roberson draws virtually no attention and is often left unguarded when on the perimiter.
Essentially the more combined "Offensive Gravity" a team has, the more space there is on the floor.
A guy could theoretically never shoot unless he's wide open on a transition layup and have an amazing TS%. That doesn't mean he needs to be guarded closely at the 3 point line.
We already discussed that Crowder has been more efficient in 1 out of 3 years that Ingles has been in the league. Being the more efficient player 2 out of 3 years makes Ingles the more efficient player based on something called math.
Being more efficient 1 out of 3 years does not make you more efficient. Less of an offensive burden? No one can have a smaller burden than Crowder. He never handles the ball. Ingles actually runs Utah's offense at times. Have you ever seen Crowder run a pick and roll in Boston? Ingles does it all the time.
Just because you are throwing statistics around doesn't mean you are using them properly. Saying I'm going to put five guys with a good TS% last year and I'm going to have a good team is completely misunderstanding the sport of basketball.
In 1 out of 3 seasons, Crowder has been more efficient than Ingles. Whatever higher volume Crowder has is because he plays more minutes and is not as good of a passer and therefore shoots more often than Ingles.
Ingles was a better defender, passer, ball handler, and 3 pt shooter last year.
Crowder had a marginally better TS%. Shit I forgot that matters more than EVERYTHING else.