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[bionic77]

Yet your "larger and faster players" didn't do much these past few days, eh? That's my point-- they may be "talented" and "athletic", but the game of basketball is about more than athleticism; the US is quickly learning this lesson-- as if they needed any more evidence after the thrashings of the past 5-7 years in int'l competition. Fact: the '92 Dream Team would be abusing these teams today, because in addition to great individual talent, they all knew how to play team ball and had solid fundamentals. I mean, those Italians were barely getting off the ground, and none of them had blazing speed-- yet they torched the US. A good team composed of good, fundamentally sound players will trounce hastily composed all-star, me-first teams any day.

The evidence is before you in the performances of the last 2 days.

Offensively I might agree that the other skill sets are extremely important, but defense is ALL about being athletic. Also, the international players are 100x better then they were when the Dream Team played (I don't list years, there is only one). And how well would the Dream Team have done without their three best players? Even back in 92 I am sure they would have had more problems.

 

[Cooter]

You can't compare 92' with 04' Loki.

For one, as some have mentioned that 92' team was the best of the best. This teams average age is 23 1/2 for goodness sake. If we put Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Tmac, along with AI and Tim Duncan then you might have a valid comparison.

Another point and maybe even more relevant is that international competition is ten times better than it was 12 years ago.

Yes they should be winning much easier but you’re not being fair.

 

[DMczaf]

Who Posted?

Total Posts: 2,752

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DMczaf 389
Matrix 302
Cloudy 195
bionic77 184
Ninja Scooter 116
Fifty 113
Shinobi 113
Blackace 112
AirBrian 94
Miguel 85
Bowser 74
rc213 72
Guzim 68
scola 59
Bat 57
DJ_Tet 55
HalfPastNoon 54
bishoptl 39
DarienA 35
Seth C 28
effzee 27
Archaix 23
RobotChant 23
Malleymal 22
levious 18
Meier 18
Chesapeake Silt 16
FrenchMovieTheme 16
dskillzhtown 15
Desperado 14
Sactown 12
golem 12
BatiGOOOOOOL 12
Loki 11
Matlock 11
DCX 11
Jumpman 10
Ripclawe 10
etiolate 10
PartlyCloudlike 10
kevm3 9
El Papa 7
Eminem 7
G4life98 7
Truelize 6
Flizzzipper 6
Paradox 6
Ramirez 6
VPhys 6
Shoryuken 6
-Fightnfire- 5
Poody 5
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Willco 5
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ChumsGum 4
firex 4
TaleSynz 4
UFC PRIDE 3
Odoul 3
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ACE 3
isamu 3
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SKluck 3
chimpychi 3
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mightynine 3
Orion 3
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Cubsfan23 3
Takuan 3
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soulja224466 1
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Santo 1
Kettch 1
Dr.Guru of Peru 1

I own this thread!

 

[bionic77]

Quality not Quantity DM.

 

[bishoptl]

You need to go outside or something.

 

[DMczaf]

Quality not Quantity DM.

Why only one when you can be the best of both worlds like me!

You need to go outside or something.

Out...side...? :O

 

[kevm3]

We need a REAL point guard on the team and a shooter. Too bad J. Kidd is having knee problems and I don't know why Redd isn't on the team. We're stuck while their team forms a star around duncan and our players play hot potato until the clock runs low and someone chunks up a shopt.

 

[Loki]

You can't compare 92' with 04' Loki.

For one, as some have mentioned that 92' team was the best of the best. This teams average age is 23 1/2 for goodness sake. If we put Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Tmac, along with AI and Tim Duncan then you might have a valid comparison.

Another point and maybe even more relevant is that international competition is ten times better than it was 12 years ago.

Yes they should be winning much easier but you’re not being fair.

That Italian team wasn't THAT good. They happened to be unconscious on their 3's, but then again, they were getting tons of wide-open looks on good ball movement, so that's props to them and a hit on the US defense. If you'll notice, the Italian team was making 4-6 passes every possession-- how many was team USA making? Maybe 3, tops. The US game is all about isolations and flash. The US defensive rotations broke down after the third or fourth pass by the Italians, and that consistently got them free beyond the arc.

And I'd hardly say that int'l competition is "ten times better" than they were in '92. Hell, my father can play better team ball than team USA did the other day, and he's 51 years old. If you're going to say that the int'l competition is "ten times better" nowadays, but admit that the '92 US team would still win handily today, then you're basically saying that that team was "ten times better" than this year's team, or that the absence of marquee players such as Kobe, Kidd, and Shaq really makes this year's team "ten times worse" than it could have been. While I'll admit that they would have had a tremendous effect, I don't think there's a 10-fold increase in quality just by having those players.


Those Italians were slow, unmuscular, and couldn't jump to save themselves, yet they DESTROYED the US team. Bionic, you're absolutely insane if you think that today's int'l players are "100 times better" than they were in '92. Are they better today? Sure. 100 times better? Yeah, ok...


Stop making excuses for today's spoiled, selfish, and unskilled players. Nobody gives a shit how many dunks or highlights they have if they only come home with the bronze, right? Typical US mindset. They're just not good skilled players by and large. So you just keep making excuses while everyone else with eyes laughs at our performance.


Also, you're talking out of two sides of your mouth (i.e., being duplicitous), but I doubt you see it:

You have said many times in the past that today's players are "better" because of their increased athleticism/size etc. Yet you now say that the int'l competition is "100 times better" than it used to be-- but not due to increased athleticism or size (after all, I'm more athletic than any 3 players combined from Italy's team, and they were all undersized, at least musculature-wise), but rather (presumably) because of more refined basketball skills. Yet I submit that if the skill of playing basketball is evolving, in terms of fundamentals, outside shooting, running solid plays etc. that it should hold for ALL sides-- not just the int'l players. Why haven't our players evolved their "skills" in the last decade to match the development of these other nations? Because, truly, assuming anywhere NEAR equal skills and teamwork, the more athletic team should win handily EVERY time. Funny how these teams have evolved skill-wise, and as teams, yet our supposedly "superior" players nowadays can't hang. Excuses are just that-- excuses. Lame.


Yet team USA has failed miserably and, I would imagine, will continue to have dismal showings, even when they prevail.

 

[Fifty]

Loki's 11 posts equal about 1100 normal length posts...so I'd say he's #1 in this thread.

MJ sucks!

 

[Ramirez]

When in doubt,give my boy A.I. the ball,muhahahaha!

 

[bionic77]

That Italian team wasn't THAT good. They happened to be unconscious on their 3's, but then again, they were getting tons of wide-open looks on good ball movement, so that's props to them and a hit on the US defense. If you'll notice, the Italian team was making 4-6 passes every possession-- how many was team USA making? Maybe 3, tops. The US game is all about isolations and flash. The US defensive rotations broke down after the third or fourth pass by the Italians, and that consistently got them free beyond the arc.

And I'd hardly say that int'l competition is "ten times better" than they were in '92. Hell, my father can play better team ball than team USA did the other day, and he's 51 years old. If you're going to say that the int'l competition is "ten times better" nowadays, but admit that the '92 US team would still win handily today, then you're basically saying that that team was "ten times better" than this year's team, or that the absence of marquee players such as Kobe, Kidd, and Shaq really makes this year's team "ten times worse" than it could have been. While I'll admit that they would have had a tremendous effect, I don't think there's a 10-fold increase in quality just by having those players.


Those Italians were slow, unmuscular, and couldn't jump to save themselves, yet they DESTROYED the US team. Bionic, you're absolutely insane if you think that today's int'l players are "100 times better" than they were in '92. Are they better today? Sure. 100 times better? Yeah, ok...


Stop making excuses for today's spoiled, selfish, and unskilled players. Nobody gives a shit how many dunks or highlights they have if they only come home with the bronze, right? Typical US mindset. They're just not good skilled players by and large. So you just keep making excuses while everyone else with eyes laughs at our performance.


Also, you're talking out of two sides of your mouth (i.e., being duplicitous), but I doubt you see it:

You have said many times in the past that today's players are "better" because of their increased athleticism/size etc. Yet you now say that the int'l competition is "100 times better" than it used to be-- but not due to increased athleticism or size (after all, I'm more athletic than any 3 players combined from Italy's team, and they were all undersized, at least musculature-wise), but rather (presumably) because of more refined basketball skills. Yet I submit that if the skill of playing basketball is evolving, in terms of fundamentals, outside shooting, running solid plays etc. that it should hold for ALL sides-- not just the int'l players. Why haven't our players evolved their "skills" in the last decade to match the development of these other nations? Because, truly, assuming anywhere NEAR equal skills and teamwork, the more athletic team should win handily EVERY time. Funny how these teams have evolved skill-wise, and as teams, yet our supposedly "superior" players nowadays can't hang. Excuses are just that-- excuses. Lame.


Yet team USA has failed miserably and, I would imagine, will continue to have dismal showings, even when they prevail.

To address your first point, I think that the absence of the marquee players makes a huge difference. Just imagine if Shaq, Kobe, KG, and Kidd were playing right now. Add Duncan on the floor and that team can compete against the original Dream Team.

I do actually agree with you on your point about skills declining in the NBA offensively, the kids just can't shoot as well as they used to and they don't have the team concept, BUT I do think that they are so much better defensively today then they used to be because that is where athleticism comes into play. I think the blame falls on the coaches and GMs personally, they all want the most gifted players athletically but they couldn't give two shits about someone who is a gifted pure shooter. There is too much of a emphasis on defense these days imho, but anyways.....

Really, there is no excuse for these guys and the embarassing display they are putting on. However, I do believe if we had our best players out there or if we had a better put together team that could do everything well together and not just a bunch of athletic shooting guards who can't actually shoot, the team would be doing much better and in fact winning most games easily. This is all just rhetorical though because we will never know what difference having the best players out there would have had, though honestly I am surprised by how shitty they are playing. I really thought that Duncan with any 4 scrubs would have bee enough to beat most of the teams and at least place for medals.

And Loki, the international players today are exactly 105 times better today then in 92. I have extensive video evidence to back up my claims too.

 

[Loki]

BUT I do think that they are so much better defensively today then they used to be because that is where athleticism comes into play

And yet that "much better defense" wasn't on display yesterday when the Eye-talians were scoring whenever they wanted. That just shows you that being a good athlete does not necessarily make you a solid defensive player, which is something I've said to you MANY times in the past. The best defensive teams have a good defensive scheme in terms of their positions and rotations etc.-- just having a bunch of long, athletic guys on the floor will not make you a premier defensive squad, as evidenced by the US team so far.


I mean, surely their "increased athletcism" should have been enough on defense to counteract what were by all accounts much slower and smaller players. But it wasn't.


Better athletes != better players. Let this be a sobering lesson for USA basketball. They really shouldn't have needed any more proof of this after their dismal showings over the past several years in int'l competition.


And yes, I granted that marquee players would have made a big difference-- but do you think that the disparity between that hypothetical "dream team" and the team we've fielded represents a 10-fold drop in quality? Or 100-fold, since you seem to believe that today's int'l players are "100 times better" than they were a decade ago? This is of course assuming that you believe that the '92 Dream Team would trounce today's int'l competition, which I believe most sane people can agree on (but which, lamentably, I predict that you won't ).


Any player who's playing in the NBA should be markedly better than int'l players. Period. Take a bunch of NBA players together and, hypothetically, they should have no trouble defeating any comers. But they're more than struggling, and that is very telling imo.

 

[Loki]

Loki's 11 posts equal about 1100 normal length posts...so I'd say he's #1 in this thread.

MJ sucks!

Haha.

 

[Mike Works]

When in doubt,give my boy A.I. the ball,muhahahaha!

I guess this means A.I.'s going to get the ball a lot

 

[effzee]

HAPPY DAYS!!! Sixers traded coleman away! NEXT UP BIG DOG!

 

[Jumpman]

I vote for the current NBA champ to be required to play in the Olympics. It should be an NBA rule.

 

[sc0la]

Who Posted?

Guzim 68
scola 59
Bat 57

Suck it down Bat! *does dance*

You're next Guzim!

 

[Shinobi]

Last year's team is so much better than this year's squad...I'm shocked at how wide the gap is.

 

[Blackace]

This has been my feeling on the NBA for the last four or five years. Players are not learning the basic fundamentals anymore. Offensively and defensively players are not learning by skipping three years of college ball or not going at all. When A.I. is one of your best defensive players you are in trouble (I know Duncan is awesome but that isn't the point) Players are not being groomed to handle the basic skills of a basketball game. When I look at the only Dream Team I see players that have gone from the bottom to the top. Learned the fundamentals of the game before expanding into the art of no look passes and the rest.

Yes the players now and days are faster, higher jumpers, and even bigger than the players of old... but they are no where as skilled...

 

[DJ_Tet]

I agree with Blackace and Loki. The NBA is a terrible brand of basketball. The iso set is so damn boring as a fan, and it takes a special type of player (i.e. Jordan) to run it correctly. This problem goes past college ball and back into the AAU programs.

I'll not elaborate any further since I'm tired of people slamming my sports opinions.

I will say that today's game between the USA and Germany could have been great had ESPN not had a damn crowd shot on the screen when Iverson swished his 30 footer. I heard Walton orgasm, and that was how I knew USA won on a miracle shot. Then I had to wait about a minute to even see a replay. Seeing USA celebrate like they were Duke over UNLV was kinda cheesy though. Grow a pair, represent your country, pass the damn ball, play some defense, don't need a half court shot to win.

 

[Blackace]

I agree with Blackace and Loki.
I'll not elaborate any further since I'm tired of people slamming my sports opinions.

When you agree with Loki and I your opinions are very sound!! (I kid I kid!)


But for real I wish we wouldn't have skipped the players that worshipped Magic, Bird and Thomas.... But instead Jordan came... now every all star is a Jordan wanna be

 

[DJ_Tet]

When you agree with Loki and I your opinions are very sound!! (I kid I kid!)


But for real I wish we wouldn't have skipped the players that worshipped Magic, Bird and Thomas.... But instead Jordan came... now every all star is a Jordan wanna be

Careful, most of the sports threads regulars wouldn't want me to agree with them

You're absolutely right though, every talented player in the league today, including big man Kevin Garnett, wants to play the game the way they "remember Jordan playing." The difference between getting the ball in iso or in the post with 18 sec left on the clock is that is not how Jordan played for the most part. He and the Bulls ran the offense, and used Jordan as the ultimate bail-out against the shot clock. Besides the fact that no one playing in the league today has Jordan's talent at his peak (god forbid I sound like Loki), they also don't play the game Jordan did. Jordan rarely, if ever, held the ball 10 seconds in the post or at the top in iso position like SO MANY of today's stars (ranging in size from Iverson to Garnett). I think I speak for a lot of fans in saying, I'm tired of seeing "superstars" hold the ball for half the shotclock before forcing a shot against a late double-team.

That same mentality is getting our ass kicked in world basketball, and it killed the Lakers vs the Pistons in the Finals.

It's time to change it up again. Every NBA player should be forced to watch Hoosiers, and be forced to follow the rule of 5 passes before a shot.

 

[DCX]

I hope we could sign Dampier rather than hope for a sign and trade. Crawford and Dampier would be very nice but i'm still wondering about Houston and what are we going to do about him. I know no one wants him...maybe Dallas They like taking huge contracts.

DCX

 

[open_mouth_]

My fellow Knicks fans:

The time has finally come for us to rise out of the ashes on the shoulders of our new leader, the great Isiah Thomas, to get back to prominence and compete for an NBA title like in our glory days. With the addition of Jamal Crawford, Jerome Williams, and Eric Dampier to our already talented core, we'll be a force to reckon' with, I reckon'. Shaq and the Heat are trembling as we speak.

 

[DCX]

I agree, we could have a very deep team...my only worries is outside shooting, which ironically, is Houston forte....argh.

DCX

 

[chimpychi]

My fellow Knicks fans

here, here!...

 

[bionic77]

Ugh, I am sick of having the same argument with Loki over and over again. I don't think any new points have been covered for some time, hell we did this same crap many times before you got banned. We need a new topic other then how much better the NBA used to be or Kobe > Jordan.

 

[Loki]

Huh? Why are you being so pissy? Others have agreed with the points I've raised regarding fundamentals and team play, which the current US team is sorely lacking in. You're batshit nuts if you think that the '92 Dream Team wouldn't have smoked any of these int'l teams today. And not (just) because they had Jordan, but because they all were SOLID fundamental players who understood and appreciated team ball. Those are the facts of the matter-- rationalize our abysmal performance this year however you see fit.

 

[levious]

Just imagine if Shaq, Kobe, KG, and Kidd were playing right now. Add Duncan on the floor and that team can compete against the original Dream Team.

and here I thought you were a sound, reasonable NBA fan.

The Dream Team's bench was overflowing with hall of famers. The only way to have improved that team would have been to swap Laettner for Shaq of Webber.

 

[bionic77]

Huh? Why are you being so pissy? Others have agreed with the points I've raised regarding fundamentals and team play, which the current US team is sorely lacking in. You're batshit nuts if you think that the '92 Dream Team wouldn't have smoked any of these int'l teams today. And not (just) because they had Jordan, but because they all were SOLID fundamental players who understood and appreciated team ball. Those are the facts of the matter-- rationalize our abysmal performance this year however you see fit.

Just bored because this is the same argument me and you have every damn time. You can continue it with someone else, but I am just bored with this for now at least and want to argue about something else. Really, I could care less about the Olympics in general or this pathetic team they assembled, these days I am following the Kobe case more and in general the Lakers > entire US Olympic team, as far as my interest goes.

At least the football season is just around the corner, God if the Steelers suck dick again this year I am going to go insane.

 

[bionic77]

and here I thought you were a sound, reasonable NBA fan.

The Dream Team's bench was overflowing with hall of famers. The only way to have improved that team would have been to swap Laettner for Shaq of Webber.

I never claimed to be sound or reasonable when it comes to sports.

 

[Loki]

Just bored because this is the same argument me and you have every damn time. You can continue it with someone else, but I am just bored with this for now at least and want to argue about something else.

Yet I didn't even obliquely reference Jordan-- DJ Tet did. Perhaps you're reading meaning into my posts? I was speaking of the Dream Team in general, as a team. Don't let your anti-Jordan bias cloud your mind.

 

[levious]

oh, Bionic,

defense is not about athletic ability, if it's 100% about anything, it'd be about willingness.

 

[Truelize]

The original Dream Team would've beat the snot out of all these international teams today without Jordan. That team was amazing. Any combination of those players would still beat everyone today.
This team this year is pretty lame. I'm not even that excited about watching them. I'm more interested in watching the entire basketball tourney whereas in the past I was mainly interested in the US team.
They are not leaving with the gold. They should be happy to leave with a medal.

Period!

 

[siege]

 

[Ninja Scooter]

i watched the repeat of the game last night on espn, and i just have to say that i hope nobody ever calls Stephon Marbury a point guard ever again. He's pathetic.

 

[Malleymal]

did someone forget to tell them that this was Germany they were playing???

and

Richard Jefferson has an ODD shaped head.......

 

[Loki]

"Yeah! We won the gol...err, we won a meda...err, we advanced to the medal roun...err, huh, this is just an exhibition game? What the hell are we celebrating like a bunch of juveniles for, then!?"

 

[effzee]

im still pretty sure we will win the gold. this team isnt the team that was supposed to be there but people dropped out but the ones there i think can and will win the gold. yeah we have looked pathetic right now but this is good to get out right now when it doesnt count. we need to crack the zone D down and hopefully LB can get it done.

 

[effzee]

"Yeah! We won the gol...err, we won a meda...err, we advanced to the medal roun...err, huh, this is just an exhibition game? What the hell are we celebrating like a bunch of juveniles for, then!?"

a miracle shot is a mircale shot. it was a heave from half court...i dont care where ur playing, what ur playing u get a sudden rush of excitement. although i must admit piling up on AI seemed a bit excessive.

 

[Loki]

although i must admit piling up on AI seemed a bit excessive.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Of course it's normal to get excited over a miracle shot-- but come on now...

 

[Guzim]

How is Okafor doing? Is he getting any play time at all?

 

[effzee]

How is Okafor doing? Is he getting any play time at all?

larry hasnt played him or king james much.

 

[Bowser]

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- Charlotte basketball fans can forget about getting a preseason look at Shaquille O'Neal.


The Bobcats will only admit middle school students who meet certain academic achievements for their Oct. 26 exhibition game against the Miami Heat.


The game is part of their "Cool School Field Trip" program, modeled after an event the NHL's Nashville Predators have done in the past.


Middle school students from 15 counties in North Carolina and South Carolina are involved in the program. Principals from the schools will select students who have demonstrated strong academic performance, commendable character and service, and have no absences or suspensions. They must also write an essay on character development.


"This is a terrific opportunity for most of our students to see an NBA game," said Dr. Tom Hammond, executive vice president of Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools. "It's an opportunity that is not available to all of them, and an incentive for them to shoot for."


The game will be played at 11 a.m

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1852422

What? WHAT? Fuckin bullshit

 

[Eminem]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/040805

LMAO, what Shaq would say on the stand

EASTER:: Mr. O'Neal, for the record, you also go by some known aliases -- Shaq, Shaq-Fu, The Big Aristotle -- is this correct?


O'NEAL: Yes.


EASTER: Are there any other names that you use?


O'NEAL: I used to be called Shaq Attaq. Sometimes I go by Shaq Daddy or Shaq Diesel. And a teammate once called me Wilt Chamberneezy, but I think that one is stupid, just like the former teammate who gave it to me. Today I feel like going by "Kobe's Guilty."

EASTER: I see. Did you notice if Mr. Bryant was drinking the night of your party?


O'NEAL: Oh, yeah -- definitely. I had made some Jell-O shots; and I noticed that after he went over to the bar, they were all gone.


EASTER: He took all the shots?


O'NEAL: Kobe always takes all the shots.


EASTER: How many do you think he took that night?


O'NEAL: That night, it was probably 30 or 35. It would have been better if he'd only taken 15 or 20 and passed the rest to me, but he just kept forcing the shots -- one after the other after the other after the other. Shot after shot after shot. On and on. It was so like him.

 

[Guzim]

:lol That's classic.

 

[DMczaf]

LOL!!

 

[bishoptl]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1852422

What? WHAT? Fuckin bullshit

How is this a bad thing? Anything that encourages students to pay attention to their grades and comportment is a positive, not a negative. You failing math or something?

 

[Bowser]

I'm not in middle school

 

[Baconäger]

Er shit, wrong thread...