You've never seen Jimmy Dore?
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New Clinton postmortem of campaign includes criticism of Sanders policy promises
- Thread starter Inuhanyou
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You've never seen Jimmy Dore?
LowlySmokeGuy
Banned
Wow. The Democrats are done. There is no way to recover from this division and chaos within the party.
Hope you're all ready for 8 years of Trump. It's time to accept reality.
Hope you're all ready for 8 years of Trump. It's time to accept reality.
Lol wtf is this? Beats Obama and the Chaos Emeralds
Don't really know what Hillary is thinking attacking the most popular senator in the country.
And lol at whining about the rather mild attacks Bernie laid out on Hillary- just look at the fucking shit that happened on the RNC primary, which once reached a point where Marco Rubio said Trump had a tiny penis.
And lol at whining about the rather mild attacks Bernie laid out on Hillary- just look at the fucking shit that happened on the RNC primary, which once reached a point where Marco Rubio said Trump had a tiny penis.
Hillary supporters will agree, Bernie supporters will disagree. Me? All I can think is how they both failed miserably and we have Trump. Bernie wasn't Hillary's fault for losing and Hillary wasn't Bernie's fault for losing. The Bernie supporters voted for Hillary 9/10 which is amazing really. It's her prerogative for writing this book and that's fine, I'm glad Clinton put this book out now instead of later on closer to elections.
but that's not something bernie ever actually said.
calling someone out for accepting corporate money in our current fucked up system is totally valid and is not a direct accusation of bribery.
Darryl M R
Member
I do agree that is how it went down.
And in the end perfect was the enemy of good.
And in the end perfect was the enemy of good.
that's the thing I get from reading Game Change. I don't know much about Bill Clinton's campaigns, but from that book and the last election one very much gets the feeling that while she could do good as President, she's somewhat naive about how to sell oneself to voters and win elections, despite getting more goes at this than most presidential hopefuls.
during her senate years she believed that the best strategy was to keep one's head down and quietly do good work, which she held against Obama, who would be flashy and go on media blitzes despite only being a freshman senator. that's all pragmatic and good, but the result was that nobody knows what she did during her senate years. she probably put forward and drove good legislation, but can people name some? i can't, and i pay more attention to politics than most people. she tried to sell detailed, thoroughly planned out policy--obama and trump both sold feelings and vague promises. guess which sold better to the voters? and yes, her campaigns both times were complete messes that coasted off of an eventuality instead of actually fighting to protect that eventuality. both times that eventuality turned into a possibility
Only it's false, if super delegates didn't exist she would have still been the candidate...
benicillin
Banned
I think that part comes off being incredibly tone deaf when Sanders has been working closely with Democrats for months to keep the ACA alive, push back against Donald Trump's agenda, and move forward with health care proposals that are more in line with what the Democratic Party can achieve in the near term.
This book is Hilary's platform to complain about other people taking from her what she was promised by the DNC.
I guess it's an honest appraisal of the situation and what she was thinking, but it's a selfish truth.
Someone else ran an almost competitive campaign against me and caused me to lose an election to a stupid person. I took all this money from wealthy people and campaigned in the Hamptons, why are my opponents using that against me when they can't prove someone handed me a a brown bag of money to vote a certain way on a bill which I would surely concede if presented with legitimate evidence.
It's almost as if political influence happens before a person is elected and you buy candidates and candidates shape their entire platforms at the will of their donors.
Candidates only "evolve" when it is politically advantageous and the opposite stance is completely unpalatable.
Corrupt people love asking for smoking guns, because successful ones are good at making it a general, un-pinnable controversy. They won't leave you a gun.
If you take the money from corporate donors and utilize Super PAC money, the public has a right to call you what you are. Unless people believe this government is not run by deregulating, lobbyists groups indifferent to income inequality and the need for regulations to keep their monopolies and unfettered, broken capitalism in check.
Looking like an out-of-touch, third way Democrat wasn't an invention of Bernie Sanders. It's what she is, no matter how terrible and unqualified Trump is.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Also, this thread and CNN title is so overly combative in trying to pit the two sides against each other again.
Clinton and Sanders were never fans of each other, Clinton though he did lasting damage, but OP's gotta write "BLASTS" like this short section of the book is really shocking.
She thought exactly what a lot of people who supported her were thinking, it's the exact reason why I went from Sanders to Clinton early in the race. I didn't think anything he said was adding up, so I shifted my support. She didn't want to be aggressive and fight back, because she knew that in the long run it was her primary to win after it became nearly impossible for Sanders to make up the votes.
Clinton and Sanders were never fans of each other, Clinton though he did lasting damage, but OP's gotta write "BLASTS" like this short section of the book is really shocking.
She thought exactly what a lot of people who supported her were thinking, it's the exact reason why I went from Sanders to Clinton early in the race. I didn't think anything he said was adding up, so I shifted my support. She didn't want to be aggressive and fight back, because she knew that in the long run it was her primary to win after it became nearly impossible for Sanders to make up the votes.
ChuckHoneywood
Banned
So....how was this any different from other primary races?
minor effort
Banned
Shes doing herself no favors by linguistically reducing leftward policy proposals to a free pony. It comes off as ridiculously dismissive, regardless of intentions.
I'm Republican. And while they were an utter mess (hence why Trump got the nomination despite ZERO governing experience), it was the efforts of the GOP to rally against Obama's policies for over 8 years to stem his agenda and it's a miracle he got as much accomplished as he did.
More alarming is that, while not politicians, I can think of several majorly influential Republican mouthpieces - Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Alex Jones, Ann Coulter, etc - that existed to feed the anti-Obama and anti-liberal narrative for 8 years STRONG.
Who do the democrats have with equivalent clout? Comedy hosts like Trevor Noah or Stephen Colbert?
On both a political and media angle, who is there for democrats to rally behind? What MESSAGE should they rally behind besides just "anti-Trump"? (Hey, worked for the Republicans with Obama, I guess).
Dicktatorship
Junior Member
Hillary was going to have a rough time campaigning against even a bag of potatoes in the primary, and her image certainly wasn't clean or beloved before some obscure Vermont senator said mild things about her. I submit a new title for her book: "Why I'm right and everyone but me is to blame."
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Ideas are dangerous. Obama sold the same hope and change magic beans and it lead to discontent, disappointment and a lack of faith in the government especially among the working class who thought obama would change everything.
you cant just promise the world and not deliver. people catch on to your empty promises.
All she cares about is vindication in the history books.
50 years from now she wants a strong argument as to why she lost to the worst president in American history (hint: it's not her fault)
rokkerkory
Member
Prob with Dems is that we cannot stop fighting with each other.
Netherscourge
Banned
Democrats need to bury Sanders, Clinton(s) and Obama and focus on a new crop of fresh candidates.
B. Clinton failed Al Gore and Sanders failed Hillary.
They need a new 'Obama' - someone who can stand on their own, even AGAINST the Clintons and draw in their primary opponents' voters without conflicts.
If we wind up with a Sanders v Clinton situation all over again, Trump ain't going anywhere.
Lol
Attack Bernie for losing? Why do all of these arguments boil down to childish simplification scared to death of nuance or understanding?
Uh the only candidate in 2016 that tried to win with superdelegates is Bernie
pretty much nailed it
lots of people are simply too stupid to understand any amount of nuance in politics
Wow, for real? Well, they sure showed everyoneI am sure the next 3 years will be smooth sailin' for the LGBT community. Easy like Sunday mornin'.
Well i meant in primaries, they went hard on Hillary under the assumptions that Bernie would beat trump.
Pretty much all of them (begrudgingly) switched to team Hillary after she won the nom.
KefkaPalazzo
Member
Bernie's not perfect, but he wasn't the Democratic candidate that was historically unpopular, fair or not. All I'll say.
Let's hope we avoid similar mistakes in 2020.
Let's hope we avoid similar mistakes in 2020.
But what's to learn? Far as I can tell, the main takeaway is "Don't be the adult in the room". Voters don't want someone who will sit down and discuss policy specifics or talk about legislative agendas - they want to chant slogans and hear impossible promises. They want that pony.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
The lesson here is to never want for anything better.
GameAddict411
Member
I agree with her. I witnessed it myself how a large minority of Bernie supporters vilified Hillary when she started gaining in primaries.
sleepnaught
Member
So, ignoring the blue firewall on the campaign trail is Bernie's fault how, exactly? I backed Hillary, but she made enormous mistakes ignoring blue collar workers in the rustbelt. Monday night quarter backing, I know, but the writing was clearly on the wall seeing how much support Trump and Sanders were getting in those states by playing to their grievances. She was told for months by people in the ground there that they were in trouble and she didn't take those warning signs seriously until it was too late.
I remember watching Al Franken on MSNB or CNN early morning election day and they reported on the Democrats being worried about Michigan and Wisconsin possibly going going Trump. The host asked Franken if he actually thought they were in trouble. You could see on Franken's face he knew they were in serious trouble before votes were even cast. His tone was completely melancholic. I knew right there Hillary was in for a bad night.
I remember watching Al Franken on MSNB or CNN early morning election day and they reported on the Democrats being worried about Michigan and Wisconsin possibly going going Trump. The host asked Franken if he actually thought they were in trouble. You could see on Franken's face he knew they were in serious trouble before votes were even cast. His tone was completely melancholic. I knew right there Hillary was in for a bad night.
'When I finally challenged Bernie during a debate to name a single time I changed a position or a vote because of a financial contribution, he couldn't come up with anything," Clinton wrote. "Nonetheless, his attacks caused lasting damage, making it harder to unify progressives in the general election and paving the way for Trump's 'Crooked Hillary' campaign."'
I remember this specific moment from the debate. It was absolutely an attempt to make her seem like a corporate shill.
And he couldn't come up with one example?
It was #herturn. That's it. That's all. They threw a hissy fit when a young black man came in and took what was rightfully hers in 2008, now they're whining about an old Jewish man who had the nerve to show the fuck up in 2016.
broncobuster
Banned
Forever won't be as long as you think.
exactly. even in this thread, people don't get it.
they want a dream, not a lesson on how to govern 350 million people
Nydius
Gold Member
Almost a year after the fact and Hillary and her camp are STILL bashing Bernie and their supporters. Even after there's been articles proving the Bernie -> Trump primary defectors were statistically smaller than defectors in previous election years and statistically insignificant.
Here's a thought, maybe if the DNC had actually allowed a full Democratic Primary instead of hitching their wagon to Hillary at the start and actively discouraging others from running, she could have shut down all other contenders. Instead, the DNC decided it was Hillary-or-Bust in what was nothing short of an unprecedented move. Never before can I recall when the incumbent two-term party hand picks one candidate and pours all their resources at that one individual at the expense of a robust primary. One of my state's senators, Jim Webb, tried to join the primaries and was pretty much told they weren't going to spend any money promoting him and he'd be on his own. Even the sitting VP was discouraged from running by the DNC.
There's a shitload of blame to go around. Bernie gets some of it. Hillary gets a lot of it. Ultimately, the DNC deserves a ton of blame for their complete mishandling of the ENTIRE campaign from pre-primary to end of general election.
E:
You mean the same way she and her supporters went ham attacking Obama in 2008 after he started gaining in the primaries? Including subtle race-baiting? Goose, gander and all that.
Here's a thought, maybe if the DNC had actually allowed a full Democratic Primary instead of hitching their wagon to Hillary at the start and actively discouraging others from running, she could have shut down all other contenders. Instead, the DNC decided it was Hillary-or-Bust in what was nothing short of an unprecedented move. Never before can I recall when the incumbent two-term party hand picks one candidate and pours all their resources at that one individual at the expense of a robust primary. One of my state's senators, Jim Webb, tried to join the primaries and was pretty much told they weren't going to spend any money promoting him and he'd be on his own. Even the sitting VP was discouraged from running by the DNC.
There's a shitload of blame to go around. Bernie gets some of it. Hillary gets a lot of it. Ultimately, the DNC deserves a ton of blame for their complete mishandling of the ENTIRE campaign from pre-primary to end of general election.
E:
You mean the same way she and her supporters went ham attacking Obama in 2008 after he started gaining in the primaries? Including subtle race-baiting? Goose, gander and all that.
admiraltaftbar
Member
True true I mean there's definitely valid criticism that Clinton didn't have a strong enough brand (kind of I mean more people voted for her). But I also think it's ridiculous that people think making blatant lies or promising vague huge changes (free college for all which will totally be paid for by..... Stuff) was what she should've been doing. Especially when people say politicians are liars because they fail to deliver everything they promise ever.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
You must have been willingly blind to the other side of that story then. Hillary supporters went into 2016 with an axe to grind from her embarrassing loss in 2008. There was a tsunami of hateful, ignorant shit said to and about people who supported Bernie in the primaries.
9 out of 10 Bernie supporters voted for her in spite of the lazy, overconfident campaign she ran.
TheOfficeMut
Unconfirmed Member
More people voted for her during the primaries.
You're not even living in reality if you can't recognize this yet you call her for being out of touch with reality.
Meet the god damn kettle.
Interfectum
Member
Yup this. Boo hoo Hillary, you had legit competition in the primary when you thought you'd just walk in and take it.
"I don't like her".
Why?
"I don't know, she's shifty and I just don't trust her. She's a Clinton."
But what about X, Y, Z?
Stares.
^ Don't know how many of those conversations I had. Nothing put pure propaganda, fed through the news, internalized for decades.
Its one thing to have problems with policy differences, or how well she was positioned to win votes, or even personal failings (with evidence, sorry, giving speeches is nonsense). But the bulk of it it always got back to the gut feeling people had but couldn't place where it came from.
Dunno about you, but my gut has been in knots by the very real terror and fear coming from the white house lately.
Beer Monkey
Member
Non-white voters went against Bernie in droves in the primaries. I guess you'd like to remove them from the process by which the candidate is chosen? Dilute their votes maybe to ensure that this can't happen again? Eliminate primaries in favor of caucuses?
Yeah he got a lot less votes than that historically unpopular candidate.
she's arguing against claims that were never made and strawmanning her opponent.
the point is that you're accountable to the forces that put you in office once elected. taking corporate money is the reason dems haven't been a bulwark against corporate abuse for the last 30 years.
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