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[5taquitos]

Mods be fighting over hot takes with the thread title.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

i never saw a leftist claim that she had vince foster murdered or deliberately caused benghazi.

i did see plenty of perfectly valid points about her work at the state department and policy positions she staked out.

the idea that everyone who dislikes her bought into republican propaganda is a strawman. respond to what people are actually saying.

It's not a straw man when 90% of the criticism isn't actually criticism and is simply parroting and "bitch is eating crackers" syndrome. Anecdotal, but again, every time I actually engaged with people to explain their thoughts, it was circular logic that literally ignored her life in public office, and not any actual disagreement with policy.

Especially when people who were flipping their shit over Clinton say the following.

"I just want four more years of Obama"
"I wish Joe Biden would have ran"

The former being literally a continuation of Obama policy (which is what Clinton campaigned on), and the latter being inherently more conservative than Clinton.

 

[jelly]

I don't think it's much of a problem going forward unless Bernie sticks his oar in at the next election.

 

[Toa TAK]

This thread just went through 3 different titles in a matter of seconds.

 

[kirblar]

I voted for Hillary but why go down this path? To sell a few more books? To prove a point? This does nothing create more friction within the party. It is not as though any good will come from this.

Far, far better for her (and us) to get this out of the way sooner rather than later.

 

[DarkKyo]

Only it's false, if super delegates didn't exist she would have still been the candidate...

The establishment's super delegates throwing all of their weight behind Clinton at the start tipped the scales so heavily in the media's presentation of the primaries that it helped make voting for Bernie seem absolutely futile. It skewed the voting process from the very start. Think about how many people stayed home just because voting for Bernie looked pointless from day one. Run that primary again without super delegates putting their 2 million cents in from the get go and let's see how it tuns out.

One thing we do know is that Sanders would have had a much better chance against Trump anyways. The establishment democrats could only scoff at those polls, but look where that got them.

 

[Novel Mike]

I'll be more curious if she actually ends up really understanding that she herself fucked up a lot.

She didn't handle the email scandal well.

She didn't end up going to several states that Trump won towards the end of the campaign.

She made almost all of her messaging about how bad Trump was without getting out how her own plans would work so all people herd from her side was that Trump is a horrible person, which I think many knew but they didn't care because he was talking about jobs and the economy. Thats what she should have been doing.

 

[Neuromancer]

Wow this page was incredibly shocking.

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/pixelatedboat/status/904883299318808576

Holy shit! How did I forget that happened?!

 

[madstarr12]

I'd say Hillary not campaigning in states Bernie won paved the way for Trump more than Bernie did.

Winning Michigan and Wisconsin wouldn't have put her over the top. She defeated Bernie in Pennsylvania and Ohio, yet she still lost them in the general after campaigning heavily there.

 

[plagiarize]

Much better thread title. Thank you mods.

 

[wetflame]

Pixellated Boat has another choice excerpt from the book:

Edit: beaten

 

[sangreal]

The establishment's super delegates throwing all of their weight behind Clinton at the start tipped the scales so heavily in the media's presentation of the primaries that it helped make voting for Bernie seem absolutely futile. It skewed the voting process from the very start. Think about how many people stayed home just because voting for Bernie looked pointless from day one. Run that primary again without super delegates putting their 2 million cents in from the get go and let's see how it tuns out.

One thing we do know is that Sanders would have had a much better chance against Trump anyways. The establishment democrats could only scoff at those polls, but look where that got them.

Did you sleep through 2008 or something? This is pure fantasy

And you're not even complaining about super delegates at this point since your complaint has nothing to do with their convention votes. Youre just complaining that she earned the support of a lot of prominent Democrats

 

[aeolist]

It's not a straw man when 90% of the criticism isn't actually criticism and is simply parroting and "bitch is eating crackers" syndrome. Anecdotal, but again, every time I actually engaged with people to explain their thoughts, it was circular logic that literally ignored her life in public office, and not any actual disagreement with policy.

Especially when people who were flipping their shit over Clinton say the following.

"Just four more years of Obama"
"I wish Joe Biden would have ran"

The former being literally a continuation of Obama policy, and the latter being inherently more conservative than Clinton.

reducing these national trends and arguments down to a few things your brain dead acquaintances once said a year ago doesn't help anyone

 

[Puck Beaverton]

This thread just went through 3 different titles in a matter of seconds.

It's hilarious and sad.

NeoGaf

 

[BTA]

It's nice to know that she thinks wanting health insurance or to pay less for tuition is equivalent to wanting a fucking pony.

 

[The Technomancer]

She’s doing herself no favors by linguistically reducing leftward policy proposals to “a free pony”. It comes off as ridiculously dismissive, regardless of intentions.

Sanders being unable to articulate how he would get his free college plan in place against the wishes of conservative governors is the exact moment I flipped on him

 

[Koomaster]

Yes, drag him! Bernie needs to apologize for his actions. He's completely useless; but I guess some people will still be blind to his true character.

 

[Maxim726X]

Holy shit! How did I forget that happened?!

I'm more amazed that such obvious pandering is effective.

 

[TuXx]

Yes, let's blame Sanders and pretend like the DNC didn't alienate a large group of people and caused voter apathy.

 

[kirblar]

Did you sleep through 2008 or something? This is pure fantasy

Buying into the "won via super-delegates" narrative and being too young to vote in the '08 primaries seem to have a very high correlation.

 

[Father_Brain]

Almost a year after the fact and Hillary and her camp are STILL bashing Bernie and their supporters. Even after there's been articles proving the Bernie -> Trump primary defectors were statistically smaller than defectors in previous election years and statistically insignificant.

Here's a thought, maybe if the DNC had actually allowed a full Democratic Primary instead of hitching their wagon to Hillary at the start and actively discouraging others from running, she could have shut down all other contenders. Instead, the DNC decided it was Hillary-or-Bust in what was nothing short of an unprecedented move. Never before can I recall when the incumbent two-term party hand picks one candidate and pours all their resources at that one individual at the expense of a robust primary. One of my state's senators, Jim Webb, tried to join the primaries and was pretty much told they weren't going to spend any money promoting him and he'd be on his own. Even the sitting VP was discouraged from running by the DNC.

There's a shitload of blame to go around. Bernie gets some of it. Hillary gets a lot of it. Ultimately, the DNC deserves a ton of blame for their complete mishandling of the ENTIRE campaign from pre-primary to end of general election.

There was a window in 2015, after the FBI investigation became public and after her approval ratings had tanked, when the Democratic establishment could have pushed for more candidates to enter the race (well, or backed Bernie, but I think we all know that wouldn't have happened). But instead, they convinced themselves that those things wouldn't matter in the general election and fell in line behind her. We're paying the price.

Jim Webb is trash, though.

 

[Neoweee]

I'd say Hillary not campaigning in states Bernie won paved the way for Trump more than Bernie did.

Wisconsin. Literally just Wisconsin is what you're referring to, and it isn't why she lost the election.

Breaking this down into just campaign strategy rather than a wave across white people without college degrees misses, like, the entire demographic lesson of this election. Hillary by-and-large crushed Sanders in battleground states, winning more of them, by larger margins, in the larger states with larger delegate hauls.

"But Wisconsin!" doesn't change anything.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

The establishment's super delegates throwing all of their weight behind Clinton at the start tipped the scales so heavily in the media's presentation of the primaries that it helped make voting for Bernie seem absolutely futile. It skewed the voting process from the very start. Think about how many people stayed home just because voting for Bernie looked pointless from day one. Run that primary again without super delegates putting their 2 million cents in from the get go and let's see how it tuns out.

One thing we do know is that Sanders would have had a much better chance against Trump anyways. The establishment democrats could only scoff at those polls, but look where that got them.

You need to actually read about the primaries in 2008 and see how Clinton lost her super delegate support to the up and comer, populist candidate Obama.

It might shock you

 

[GameAddict411]

You must have been willingly blind to the other side of that story then. Hillary supporters went into 2016 with an axe to grind from her embarrassing loss in 2008. There was a tsunami of hateful, ignorant shit said to and about people who supported Bernie in the primaries.

9 out of 10 Bernie supporters voted for her in spite of the lazy, overconfident campaign she ran.

Not more blind than the Bernie supporter who believed all the bullshit that Bernie promised. Things that were beyond the authority of the executive office. Also how he was a sore loser when lost several key states early on. He dragged it on even when he knew it was going to hurt the chances of Hillary winning office. I agree that he was not the main reason she lost, but I know he contributed to it along with his supporters.

 

[And_Gignac]

I can't take seriously a politician who compares basic humans rights to "ponies".

She is a loser and so is anyone still championing her.

 

[aeolist]

Sanders being unable to articulate how he would get his free college plan in place against the wishes of conservative governors is the exact moment I flipped on him

how exactly was clinton going to pass her agenda through the same congress then? why does it make more sense to vote for her if that's what you're looking at?

 

[VendettaRed07]

Framing Bernie's argument that too many politicians supported virtually all of the several trillion dollars in spending on war since 9/11 and never asked how much it would cost.. but then turned around and to say we can't afford to pay for a single payer bill and act like it's ridiculous that someone is even proposing it, as "2 second abs" is really stupid...

Their differences in votes and records of where their priorities are here in this regard was absolutely not just superficial marketing stuff. She did not campaign on either single payer or Medicare for all until Bernie basically held his endorsement hostage for it. I don't see what that quote applies to outside of maybe the minimum wage ordeal.

And the quote on her saying Bernie couldn't come up with something that she changed a position on because of a donation is another example of her not understanding the criticism. We have ethics rules for a reason. It's not about trusting individuals it's about trusting everyone. Do we honestly believe a political culture in which taking massive donations from wealthy financial firms prior to running for office on a large scale doesn't lead to corruption? I mean come on... it was a financial conflict of interest and something she shouldn't have been doing if she intended to stay in public service.

 

[DOWN]

The book excerpts seem candid so far so I am excited to read this.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I don't care.

At this point, let the next primary go nuclear, we'll see who comes out of it. I'm sure it will be a candidate with bully tendancies.

Either way, libs and progs need to have their time to duke it out, get that shit outta the way, and fucking end this nightmare.

Or just have the people do it and say fuck civility.


On topic, nice to see her be more candid. Should have been in the campaign. Her team was trash for that and more.

 

[plagiarize]

i never saw a leftist claim that she had vince foster murdered or deliberately caused benghazi.

i did see plenty of perfectly valid points about her work at the state department and policy positions she staked out.

the idea that everyone who dislikes her bought into republican propaganda is a strawman. respond to what people are actually saying.

I saw leftists make these criticisms.

But so what?

 

[Darryl M R]

By no means is this the only thing that factor in the election end result. I do think the media has learned some lessons, especially now having to deal with Trump, that maybe going for hot take headlines is not the best route.

I can take seriously a politician who compares basic humans rights to "ponies".

Is that a pepe avatar?

 

[Slime]

This is dumb. Bernie didn't do anything Obama didn't do. The only difference this time was that the wrong team won in the end.

Maybe she should have run a competent presidential campaign and actually had a presence in the Rust Belt.

 

[Condom]

Haven't read the book, might just be those supporters picking a fight.

EDIT: Ok read the pony part. She is hopeless, again an exact copy of centrist 'social-democrats' (in name only).

 

[excelsiorlef]

the 2008 primary was orders of magnitude nastier and obama did just fine in the general

bernie took it easy on her and i wish he hadn't, he might have actually been able to win if he'd ever really gone on the offensive

He literally accused her of money laundering

 

[RustyNails]

The establishment's super delegates throwing all of their weight behind Clinton at the start tipped the scales so heavily in the media's presentation of the primaries that it helped make voting for Bernie seem absolutely futile. It skewed the voting process from the very start. Think about how many people stayed home just because voting for Bernie looked pointless from day one. Run that primary again without super delegates putting their 2 million cents in from the get go and let's see how it tuns out.

One thing we do know is that Sanders would have had a much better chance against Trump anyways. The establishment democrats could only scoff at those polls, but look where that got them.

The "establishment superdelegates" were locked in for Hillary at the start of 2008 campaign. They started to switch to Obama after Obama proved he can win in NH and then steamrolled in Super Tuesday.

Your reasoning is garbage.

 

[GrooveCommand]

More people voted for her during the primaries.

You're not even living in reality if you can't recognize this yet you call her for being out of touch with reality.

Meet the god damn kettle.

Yeah you're right, she got more votes and even without the super delegates still would have won. But the point I'm making is that she was highly unfavorable and shouldn't have run. I think we would be in a very different situation right now if Bernie had been the candidate to run against Trump.

 

[ChuckHoneywood]

It was #herturn. That's it. That's all. They threw a hissy fit when a young black man came in and took what was rightfully hers in 2008, now they're whining about an old Jewish man who had the nerve to show the fuck up in 2016.

Yup this. Boo hoo Hillary, you had legit competition in the primary when you thought you'd just walk in and take it.

I mean, I'm just trying to understand what Clinton had to endure in the 2016 primaries that was so radically different from, let's say, what Obama had to endure in the 2008 primaries. Or what Kerry had to endure in the 2004 primaries.

 

[Bronx-Man]

I don't think it's much of a problem going forward unless Bernie sticks his oar in at the next election.

I doubt it. Dude seems pretty content with being the Yoda for whoever's running in 2020 and wants his guidance (which for the moment I'd guess is Kamala).

 

[MetalGearZed]

This is exactly on-point.

Of course, one lesson I learned from last year is that you SHOULD offer magic abs.

Policy details and feasibility don't really matter in campaign.

this is kinda where i'm at. i mean we are strictly talking about winning and nothing more.

it worked for Trump. he promised even more magic than Bernie

 

[JustenP88]

I'm tired of policy proposals being painted as fucking "promises" as if someone got on a stage and said "elect me and you're all getting that good good free shit on day one." Fuck Kamala Harris for promising everyone healthcare for all the other day. (Sarcasm aside, fuck the people in that thread that were like "yay good job" who are now quoting that 'ponies' shit like "yeah truth fuck Bernie")

Alright, there was one candidate who said shit like that, but he wasn't in the Democratic primary...

I mean, I'm just trying to understand what Clinton had to endure in the 2016 primaries that was so radically different from, let's say, what Obama had to endure in the 2008 primaries. Or what Kerry had to endure in the 2004 primaries.

Bernie Sanders talked about money in politics too much and Democrats like to keep that shit hush hush when the optics might turn bad.

 

[KefkaPalazzo]

Non-white voters went against Bernie in droves in the primaries. I guess you'd like to remove them from the process by which the candidate is chosen? Dilute their votes maybe to ensure that this can't happen again? Eliminate primaries in favor of caucuses?

I wasn't going to post again in this thread because of the toxicty, but I need to respond to this.

So I point out the fact that she's unpopular, something well established by statistics and now I want to eliminate voting rights from minorities. That's the kind of asinine logic that ruins any chance of rational discussion. Get a grip.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

reducing these national trends and arguments down to a few things your brain dead acquaintances once said a year ago doesn't help anyone

Except you're choosing to ignore the cause of such a narrative and the very real online push of such a narrative that fed on it's cycle and kept it looping for the entire election.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

 

[TyrantII]

Democrats need to bury Sanders, Clinton(s) and Obama and focus on a new crop of fresh candidates.

Agree.

Looking internationally, we need fresh blood and a new wave that understands globalization and technology. These old boomers are not the path forward. I'm tired of the constant re-litigation of 1965.

Hopefully the Lt Gov of Cali decides to run. I know he want the Gov, but he would play very well on the national stage.

 

[Lumination]

It was #herturn. That's it. That's all. They threw a hissy fit when a young black man came in and took what was rightfully hers in 2008, now they're whining about an old Jewish man who had the nerve to show the fuck up in 2016.

I think it's really disingenuous to frame the narrative that way. It's undeniable that Bernie hurt her campaign and image (but again, this happens in every primary). The unique thing about 2016 is that the enemy was the Trump and the alt-right. Hillary supporters believe that Bernie supporters (and Bernie himself) should have been pragmatic about the whole thing and abandoned his campaign. Bernie supporters are a mix of hating Hillary and actually daring to dream of the impossible -- those so-called magic abs.

The reason why people are STILL talking about all this is because the ugly truth is there is no right answer. There was no reason to believe that Trump would be an actual threat, ESPECIALLY that far out. Who am I to call for Bernie to quite while shouldering the hopes (and donations) of tons of people, especially young people? But on the flip side, Hillary has every right to be upset that people bought into what she sees as a snake oil salesman. She was pragmatic when the American people wanted to dream. And that's not wrong of either side imo.

 

[Father_Brain]

And the quote on her saying Bernie couldn't come up with something that she changed a position on because of a donation is another example of her not understanding the criticism. We have ethics rules for a reason. It's not about trusting individuals it's about trusting everyone. Do we honestly believe a political culture in which taking massive donations from wealthy financial firms prior to running for office on a large scale doesn't lead to corruption? I mean come on... it was a financial conflict of interest and something she shouldn't have been doing if she intended to stay in public service.

It will never cease to amaze me how "money in politics is perfectly fine and utterly beyond reproach as long as it's short of explicit quid pro quo" became the mainstream Democratic position on the issue last election cycle.

Yeah, there were Democrats who argued that before, but not nearly as many until Clinton supporters needed a defense of her Wall Street ties and the Clinton Foundation.

 

[Cesare Borgia]

Can't believe that she has the gall to blame Bernie for her failures. She won the primary because she had the help of super delegates. She was a highly unfavorable candidate who shouldn't have run in the first place. If this is how she feels she is deeply out of touch with reality.

She won the primary because she won the most delegates and votes. You can't win the democrat or republican primaries without the south. How Bernie didn't know that is beyond me.

End of the day, while Bernie's last months were pathetic he didn't do or say anything comparable to what Hillary and her husband did and said in 2008, when it was clear she would not be the nominee. This is a person who has never accepted blame or responsibility for anything in her unimpressive political career so I'm not surprised she's blaming others here.

 

[Lothars]

Yeah you're right, she got more votes and even without the super delegates still would have won. But the point I'm making is that she was highly unfavorable and shouldn't have run. I think we would be in a very different situation right now if Bernie had been the candidate to run against Trump.

I don't I think the democrats would be in an even worst position when Bernie loses because he just isn't a good candidate either. He had good policies but he never backed them up and who knows what skeletons they would have found in his closet.

Democrats need to bury Sanders, Clinton(s) and Obama and focus on a new crop of fresh candidates..

I agree, they need to do that now.

 

[And_Gignac]

He literally accused her of money laundering

He didn't. If you want to stretch the truth then we can say that Hilary Clinton v. 2008 literally fantasized, on camera, about Obama getting assassinated.

 

[DogDude]

If primaries do lasting damage that is the problem of the dnc