I was naive to think this would go any other way when I entered the thread.
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New Clinton postmortem of campaign includes criticism of Sanders policy promises
- Thread starter Inuhanyou
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Chained Prometheus
Member
Yuuuuup.
I won't argue at all against the notion that Bernie had an impact on Hillary's campaign, but this just feels like another case of scapegoating and focusing too deeply on one individual factor.
Trump winning the election seem to be the result of quite a few factors all colliding into each other; Bernie's impact on a portion of the voting block, Hillary's multiple mishaps during the general election campaign and whatever the hell was up with Trump, Russia, the GOP and Wikileaks (something that seems to be far more widespread and multifaceted than we initially assumed).
The Democrats absolutely need to find a way to unite together moving forward in the 2018 and 2020 elections if we want to get out of this nightmare. Even if Trump keels over before 2020 or gets impeached or anything else that results in his premature departure, he's only one part of the problem right now (albeit an insanely massive one).
Bitching about Bernie Sanders and his supporters won't do anyone any good. Nor will Bernie and his supporters bitching about how Hillary stole the election from him or how the DNC must submit to his vision entirely in order to win in 2020.
Sanders wasn't legitimate competition.
That's the problem. She had none. A weird old socialist Jew from Vermont and a few has-beens.
My hot take:
Clinton's fault was being a realistic in a campaign with a con man.
I watched this unfold in real-time during the debates.
Man: "How will you protect jobs in the coal and fossil fuel industries?"
Clinton: "I won't. Those jobs are going away. We need to create new jobs for them."
Trump: "I WILL PROTECT THEM."
Man: "How will you fix the immigration crisis and deal with illegal immigrants?"
Clinton: "We should be a land of opportunity that has mercy on foreigners, even Muslims."
Trump: "I WILL PROTECT YOU FROM SCARY IMMIGRANTS."
Man: "How will you fix health care?"
Clinton: "Obamacare isn't perfect, but we can take steps to improve it."
Trump: "I ALONE CAN FIX IT!"
Over and over and over. With both Bernie and Trump, she tried to educate Americans that the issues were more complex, avoiding the soundbytes, avoiding grandiose promises.
She told the truth... but the truth wasn't POPULAR. Telling coal miners they won't get their jobs back is the truth, but it won't win votes. Telling people who are scared of losing their jobs to illegal immigrants that we'll "work on it" instead of "fixing it" won't give her a vote.
She said the truth, but not what they wanted to hear. Trump played on that and used Bernie's own campaign style against her. The thing is, many Trump supporters didn't even believe Trump... but he said what they WANTED him to say, and Hillary didn't. She came in with a plan, and Trump came in with a DREAM.
"We need a plan to fight ISIS..."
"I'LL DEFEAT THEM IN 30 DAYS, BELIEVE ME!"
And here we are.
Clinton's fault was being a realistic in a campaign with a con man.
I watched this unfold in real-time during the debates.
Man: "How will you protect jobs in the coal and fossil fuel industries?"
Clinton: "I won't. Those jobs are going away. We need to create new jobs for them."
Trump: "I WILL PROTECT THEM."
Man: "How will you fix the immigration crisis and deal with illegal immigrants?"
Clinton: "We should be a land of opportunity that has mercy on foreigners, even Muslims."
Trump: "I WILL PROTECT YOU FROM SCARY IMMIGRANTS."
Man: "How will you fix health care?"
Clinton: "Obamacare isn't perfect, but we can take steps to improve it."
Trump: "I ALONE CAN FIX IT!"
Over and over and over. With both Bernie and Trump, she tried to educate Americans that the issues were more complex, avoiding the soundbytes, avoiding grandiose promises.
She told the truth... but the truth wasn't POPULAR. Telling coal miners they won't get their jobs back is the truth, but it won't win votes. Telling people who are scared of losing their jobs to illegal immigrants that we'll "work on it" instead of "fixing it" won't give her a vote.
She said the truth, but not what they wanted to hear. Trump played on that and used Bernie's own campaign style against her. The thing is, many Trump supporters didn't even believe Trump... but he said what they WANTED him to say, and Hillary didn't. She came in with a plan, and Trump came in with a DREAM.
"We need a plan to fight ISIS..."
"I'LL DEFEAT THEM IN 30 DAYS, BELIEVE ME!"
And here we are.
This is my take on it.
I think using the whole "Pony" analogy is the reason. It's condescending.
I guess the social benefits many socialist (red scare boogeyman words) European nations have come to expect should be likened to a child asking for a Pony.
Because free healthcare, free college education, and a more equal economy is too unrealistic for the richest country on Earth to handle.
You may as well be a child asking for a cute, childish dream animal to live in your suburban backyard.
Hillary went through all the shit Obama & Kerry did in primaries, maybe this time it was more noticeable because social media amplified it? Twitter discussion pretty much dominated all election coverage, maybe that's what made Bernie voters (like myself) feel louder than other primary supporters.
We know some of them. Jane Sanders under investigation for fraud and her questionable handling of a New England university. Sanders' history on nuclear waste. That time he went up on stage with the Sandinista government in Nicaragua, and some sketchy writings of his from college.
Why is my NeoGAF bookmark redirecting to Stormfront and why do I have a Stormfront account
I'm trying to think of a slightly more serious take but even now it's making my blood boil that she and the Democrats saw Bernie promising things that they thought were unrealistic and thought they should combat that by whining about it so the status quo should remain instead of actually pushing anything nearly as appealing.
Sure, he hurt her campaign, but it's on her for not adapting and dealing with it along with all her other mistakes.
Sure, he hurt her campaign, but it's on her for not adapting and dealing with it along with all her other mistakes.
Sanders was, in my view, abslutely a factor in her losing the election. So she's not wrong.
But it was only one factor among many imo:
From most to least damaging for me
Constant Russian hack+ trolls/ Wikipedia drip drop in news including hints the DNC favored her
Comey letter
Establishment candidate vs anti establishment Gop and general mood
Flawed polls showing an easy victory over and over, in spite of signs it wouldn't be (apathy)
Followed a pro establishment Democrat President
Free air time for Trump crazy stuff vs only negative stuff for Clinton
Is a Woman (misoginy)
Clinton akwardness in public/ secrecy
Campaign focused on anti Trump, lack of clarity of program "for" something
Left middle working class as taken for granted, same for unions
Butter emails/ Lack of judgement
20 years of Gop attacks
Sanders attacks on character
Did not visit rust belt/ said wrong things in front of workers ("putting coal out of business")
Husband history
...
But it was only one factor among many imo:
From most to least damaging for me
Constant Russian hack+ trolls/ Wikipedia drip drop in news including hints the DNC favored her
Comey letter
Establishment candidate vs anti establishment Gop and general mood
Flawed polls showing an easy victory over and over, in spite of signs it wouldn't be (apathy)
Followed a pro establishment Democrat President
Free air time for Trump crazy stuff vs only negative stuff for Clinton
Is a Woman (misoginy)
Clinton akwardness in public/ secrecy
Campaign focused on anti Trump, lack of clarity of program "for" something
Left middle working class as taken for granted, same for unions
Butter emails/ Lack of judgement
20 years of Gop attacks
Sanders attacks on character
Did not visit rust belt/ said wrong things in front of workers ("putting coal out of business")
Husband history
...
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Bernie did a lot of campaigning for her last fall and denounced Trump constantly. He did his part in ensuring the orange idiot wasn't elected. In the end 12% or so of the Bernie crowd in the deciding rust belt didn't vote for her. She didn't do enough to get herself the support of that 12% or they would have never voted for her regardless.
But also there were like 80k people Michigan (am I remembering the right state?) that didn't even vote in the president slot, they just voted down ticket. I find that more of a representation of what happened in the rust belt. Trump won those states, all be it by a small margin, because of NAFTA/CAFTA/original TPP stance. You can blame Sanders for bringing up NAFTA, but remember Obama brought it up a lot in 2008 too. I think she would have had problems in the rust belt regardless.
Overall she still won 3 million more votes than Trump and by that count she should be president if it wasn't for the damn EC.
I never understood this either. It went from "Yes We Can" to "No We Cant."
But also there were like 80k people Michigan (am I remembering the right state?) that didn't even vote in the president slot, they just voted down ticket. I find that more of a representation of what happened in the rust belt. Trump won those states, all be it by a small margin, because of NAFTA/CAFTA/original TPP stance. You can blame Sanders for bringing up NAFTA, but remember Obama brought it up a lot in 2008 too. I think she would have had problems in the rust belt regardless.
Overall she still won 3 million more votes than Trump and by that count she should be president if it wasn't for the damn EC.
I never understood this either. It went from "Yes We Can" to "No We Cant."
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Maybe a Democrat should have run against her.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
aka Hillary
superdeluxe
Member
Not wrong, but not sure how it helps now
I H8 Memes
Member
I'm glad the history books will show Bernie Sanders losing to the worst Presidential candidate in the modern history of the Republican party.
still trying to pass the blame to others eh?
yeah pretty much this.
And with that kind of attitude it's no wonder that she's lost. But yeah, blaming others is easier. I'm sure it will work out great in 2020
yeah pretty much this.
And with that kind of attitude it's no wonder that she's lost. But yeah, blaming others is easier. I'm sure it will work out great in 2020
Darryl M R
Member
I agree with your post.
She was well liked before she started to run. Her favorability took a nose dive when Republicans launched their campaign against her with manufactured scandals leading up to 2016. Scandals that Bernie supporters were all top happy to buy into
DOWN
Banned
Everyone loves to dish out these hot takes about how she messed up, but even Roger Stone, Kellyanne, and just about the rest of the world thought we were seeing a slam dunk campaign. The data was saying she was running the campaign right where it counted up until the last two weeks with Comeys BS letter. Every prediction site from 538 to Princeton said Hillary was hitting right where she needed to for a win as fall was starting.
Version 3.0
Member
I'm talking about the voters, not the candidates. The lesson is "do be the adult in the room".
By that, I don't mean discuss policy or agenda in detail. Just rally behind the winner of the primary, even if that was not your ideal candidate. It's not so much to ask, especially in the face of truly vile competition from the other party.
HighResTomato
Member
Who is going to be blamed next?
Netherscourge
Banned
Meanwhile, Trump's crew was profiling the effect of receding hairlines and comb-overs on voters' habits....
There was zero "coming together" moment. Bernie stayed in way past his expiration date, and even getting record concessions on the party platform (the policies the party pledges to push in office) his supports we're boo'ing speakers at the convention on live TV.
Obama and Clinton has some ugliness, but both put down the clubs once the votes were in and worked toward the common goal. Clinton did so much so, Obama turned to her to join his administration.
Bernie is still antagonizing the Dems from the left, because his found an audience that wants that. But fighting between the left factions will only mean things getting worse. He doesn't know how to build his revolution coalition beyond his ardent supporters that think tearing down the DNC is better than dragging it forward.
I mean, other than the fact that this statement is 100% wrong, sure.
Yeah Bernie may have done her damage in the long run but really it's not a lesson worth dwelling on too much and sounds like it's just a blip in this book, even if a rather snide one that Hillary or some in her organization just can't let go of. There were far greater issues at play that Hillary and her campaign had control over that led to her defeat and plenty of other issues outside both camps control as well.
Bernie definitely lost the plot by the last month or so or the Primaries and bothered me, but the majority of his opposition was good and something voters should want. We need to agitate the party and push things further to the left. Sure a lot of his ideas were unrealistic or without a real framework for implementation, but it's really important to bring those kinds of issues to the forefront and get people talking and thinking about free college, universal healthcare and so on.
I'm fearful that too many people will now be vehemently opposed to any kind of minority opposition in near future primaries due to Hillary's loss. Even if you could make a clear line between Bernie's opposition and Hillary's defeat it still wouldn't be the right lesson to take. Depending on how things go in the 2019 primaries there could be a real ugly scene among Dems if one candidate comes out ahead early on and one or two other candidates still stay on. Hell it will probably get really ugly regardless with several camps lambasting others as they believe it paramount to rally behind one candidate ASAP and not allow for any kind of internal debate or criticizing of the candidate for fear of how that will affect the general election.
Bernie definitely lost the plot by the last month or so or the Primaries and bothered me, but the majority of his opposition was good and something voters should want. We need to agitate the party and push things further to the left. Sure a lot of his ideas were unrealistic or without a real framework for implementation, but it's really important to bring those kinds of issues to the forefront and get people talking and thinking about free college, universal healthcare and so on.
I'm fearful that too many people will now be vehemently opposed to any kind of minority opposition in near future primaries due to Hillary's loss. Even if you could make a clear line between Bernie's opposition and Hillary's defeat it still wouldn't be the right lesson to take. Depending on how things go in the 2019 primaries there could be a real ugly scene among Dems if one candidate comes out ahead early on and one or two other candidates still stay on. Hell it will probably get really ugly regardless with several camps lambasting others as they believe it paramount to rally behind one candidate ASAP and not allow for any kind of internal debate or criticizing of the candidate for fear of how that will affect the general election.
Thinking about it more, I like her analogy but I don't like her summing up bog standard social democratic policy as a pony. Bernie was light on the details even though he was on the right path and pressing him only highlighted that. But they were good policies none the less.
So I like what she is saying, not how she said it about how Bernie said it and not what he was saying.
I feel like a confused centrist.
So I like what she is saying, not how she said it about how Bernie said it and not what he was saying.
I feel like a confused centrist.
psychowave
Member
Solely blaming Hillary instead of the dozens of millions of people in the US who were willing to vote for Donald Trump seems like the easy way out tbh
I will assume you're making a joke.
And_Gignac
Member
Nah. You are using Arguments that look far-rightish
Just got here, what were the prior titles?
I doubt she was ever actually interested in what those people had to say which is why she can dismissively compare it to a pony or a joke.
StarCreator
Member
I mean, this is exactly what I thought of Bernie and why I declined to change party affiliations in order to participate in the Democratic primary on Bernie's behalf like so many people did. Bernie's ideals sound great, but there's absolutely nothing there on how he would accomplish the things he was promising with Congress largely not on board.
Hilary wasn't the perfect candidate, but she had much more political experience and I didn't feel she was overselling on any campaign promises.
Hilary wasn't the perfect candidate, but she had much more political experience and I didn't feel she was overselling on any campaign promises.
Steve Youngblood
Member
If hell does indeed exist and I do wind up there, I can only imagine it will be a place where everyone relitigates the 2016 Democratic Primaries for all of eternity.
"Not a legitimate candidate because he's a weird old socialist Jew."
We'd probably both be better off if we assumed the other was joking.
Between the "Jew" shit and the slobbering over the "how do we pay for our poneez" analogy that seems like something you'd learn at a seminar Newt Gingrich would give at a Heritage Foundation event, I'm having a hard time telling exactly where I am right now.
Makes perfect sense. She's right.
Also, it's an excerpt. So anyone saying that she should blame herself, should probably wait for the actual book. I'm sure you'll get plenty of self-blame.
It's funny, we want politicians to be honest, and got after Hillary for being too fake. And now, she's telling her actual feelings about what happened and people want her to shut up.
Also, it's an excerpt. So anyone saying that she should blame herself, should probably wait for the actual book. I'm sure you'll get plenty of self-blame.
It's funny, we want politicians to be honest, and got after Hillary for being too fake. And now, she's telling her actual feelings about what happened and people want her to shut up.
This just in! Clinton's book is only this one page. What a loser!
No, she already blamed herself, and I'm sure she does again in the book.
Do you seriously think Sanders had 0 part?
thewaffles
Member
Where is everyone getting their advanced copies of the book from, since a lot of people seem to know that she only blames Bernie for this and takes zero responsibility?
There were so many things that worked against her, including herself, Bernie, Russia, Republican Media, etc. that I'm sure she will address in the full book.
There were so many things that worked against her, including herself, Bernie, Russia, Republican Media, etc. that I'm sure she will address in the full book.
Clearly it was.
Given you made an accusation rather than a joke, your apology is accepted in advance.
DOWN
Banned
Youre really missing the point if you are getting hung up on ponies as a metaphor for appealing proposals
Father_Brain
Banned
psst, literally no one cares whether Sanders is a "real" Democrat except for the ~10% of the party that already hates him. that's not why he lost the primary, lol
Your take on this is too simplistic. Europe only got these things after literally being devastated by WWII, there was a significant change in mindset and approach to the way people thought about the role of government. The US only get its social programs in large part thanks to the Great Depression.
You can not expect to get the same European style solutions over night in a country which is still very much functioning and far from being on the verge of societal collapse.
So Hillary's proposals were far more realistic in the sense that they were grounded in reality trying to inch forward knowing how hard it is to change things in a society where for many people (not saying a majority) things were OK how they were.
Sanders was pure snakeoil. I say this as someone from the UK who abhors the right and who believes the 1946 Labour government is the greatest in this country's history.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
There is literally nothing left to be said about the primary.
Everything has already been repeated, it's such a pointless discussion/argument to have.
Everything has already been repeated, it's such a pointless discussion/argument to have.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Trump won. What makes you think you're not in hell already?
Life Lesson: When people say they want people who are "real" and who are "straight shooters", they're lying. An actual "real" and honest person will make them very mad.
The Republican primary was an absolute bloodbath compared to the dems side, even aside from Trump. But republicans don't have any problem with it ever. They always get on board.
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