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[LordOfChaos]

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www.4gamer.net

There's a lot in there so I recommend just using Google Translate, but some translated highlights:


Ale it is detailed, some M.2 SSDs are equipped with heatsinks. Is there any caveat when such SSDs are installed in expansion slots? Mr. Kaoru: The heat sink has a physical design that can be stored as long as it is less than 8 mm in height from the board surface.

The expansion slot has a metal cover, but it is better to avoid contact with it as much as possible.
If a tall SSD with a heat sink is installed, it may interfere with the metal
cover. Chassis and screw holes to assemble the metal cover may be damaged because it is made of plastic. Therefore, as an expansion SSD, it would be better to avoid products with extremely tall heat sinks.

​

In addition, M.2 SSDs corresponding to PCIe connections are well known that heat generation at high loads is a major problem. Some PC motherboards have heat sinks for M.2 SSDs, but what kind of devices does the PS5 use? Mr. Liu: Two exhaust holes are provided for the expansion SSD slot.

Since the expansion slot is located near the intake fan, it is structured to absorb heat at negative pressure from the exhaust hole.

.....

Otori: We have wanted to use liquid metal for a long time. However, since liquid metal is conductive, if it leaks to the board side, it will cause a short circuit. Above all, liquid metal is highly corrosive to aluminum, which is used for components such as heat sinks. When handling such materials, measures are required for manufacturing facilities. We spent more than two years preparing for these problems.

Although the composition of the liquid metal and the manufacturer of the joint venture were not disclosed, it is said that a common gallium-based alloy is used for the liquid metal-based TIM. However, in the interview, he emphasized that it was a proprietary product custom made by SIE.
　In the disassembled video of TIM, you can see a sponge-like component around the APU part. This prevents the liquid metal from leaking out to the board side.

　Liquid metal TIM also exists for PC CPUs and is used among CPU overclockers, for example. However, as Otori says, there are problems with conductivity and corrosion. There is even a warning to use copper-based heat sinks in TIM for PCs.

Why did you spend more than two years to use such a difficult material?

Otori: The main reason is cost. In thermal design, you have to put the cost close to the heat source. As a general thermal design metaphor, let's say you spend 10 yen for a TIM and 1,000 yen for a heat sink in the cooling structure of a certain system. If you change to a 100 yen TIM, you can get the same cooling effect with a 500 yen heat sink. In other words, you can reduce the total cost.

　Even after overcoming the difficulties in handling and manufacturing, liquid metal was finally used in PS5 to achieve a great effect.

　The main heat sink that cools the APU is connected to the board through the A-side shield plate made of galvanized steel plate (SPCC: Steel Plate Cold Commercial). The APU portion of the A-side shielding plate has a square hole in it so that the block part of the heat sink will directly contact with the APU.

Otori: The heat sink is made of aluminum, but the block in contact with the APU is made of copper. However, can you see that this block is plated in silver? This is to prevent corrosion from liquid metal.

　As mentioned earlier, gallium-based liquid metals are highly corrosive to aluminum, but copper is said to be able to withstand that. However, according to the tests conducted by the PS5 development team, even copper is not completely resistant to the gallium-based metal used in this project, TIM, so they are also taking measures to protect it with plating.

Cooling the back of the board was more difficult than the surface

　The B-side, which is the back side of the machine, has many highlights as well, and the B-side is dotted with reasonably large heat sources such as GDDR6 memory, DC/DC power circuits, and flash memory chips.

How are these parts of the device being treated for heat?

Otori: Actually, we are more concerned with the cooling of the B-side of the device than the A-side. Looking back, it may have been easier to deal with side A because we could foresee the high heat source in advance (laughs). In fact, the B-side has as much heat as a PS4's APU, so we had to cover the B-side. That's why the shield board covering the B-side can be used as a heat sink.

According to Otori, the B-side of the board is not made of galvanized steel, as the A-side is, but of aluminum, which has excellent thermal conductivity and heat dissipation.
　The outer side of the aluminum shield board has a small three-dimensional heat-dissipating fin, and the inner side where it makes contact with the B-side has a heat pipe, making it look like a shield board as well as a heat-dissipating plate. This heat pipe is connected to the heat sink mainly for the purpose of heat transfer from the DC/DC power supply circuit. The wind from the cooling fan flows through the shield board and wipes away the heat.

By the way, if you look closely at the inside of the shield board, you can see that the ground surface is coated with gray material. What is this?

Otori: It's TIM. It's applied to the shield board, the DC/DC power supply circuitry, the GDDR6 memory, the SSD flash memory and the part where the heat source is installed. It's used to transfer heat from the heat source to the shield board.

　The TIM applied to the shield looks like a round rubber sheet, but it is in liquid form during the manufacturing process. It hardens over time and eventually takes on a rubber-like texture, according to the company. The chips, which are the heat source of the chips, are expected to have a certain amount of variation in height, but this TIM can absorb that variation because it is in liquid form when it is applied.

The fan is made of fiberglass polybutylene terephthalate. The advantage of this material is that it is strong and the shape deformation due to heat is small. The number of feathers is calculated from the balance between the required positive pressure and air volume. Even in a fairly harsh environment, the main body is designed with plenty of room to prevent it from failing.

A thick fan is adopted, and the wind is sent to both A side and B side.
The size of the fan is 120 mm in diameter and 45 mm in thickness, and it is quite large and thick as an electric fan implemented in a game console. This is to achieve a high level of calm by slowly turning the big fan.

...

Otori: Various games will be released in the future, and data on the APU's behavior in each game will be collected. We have a plan to optimize the fan control based on this data.

　The PS5's thermal design, including the speed of the air-cooled fans, is said to have a generous margin of safety. If a game is under heavy load for a long period of time, they can increase the fan speed to enhance cooling performance, even at the expense of quietness.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Title made me think the PS5’s fan blades morphed based on the game’s needs.

I was so impressed, I almost bought one right there and then, even for the extra thousand.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Have no fucking idea what is going on here but it sounds impressive and therefore I am impressed.

 

[THE DUCK]

I can't remember, do we have any hands tests with actual games that push the system in terms of noise level?

 

[Aidah]

Very interesting (even if it's "rather uninteresting").

 

[LordOfChaos]

The part that the B-side of the motherboard, which has all the memory chips but no APU, puts out as much heat as a PS4 APU, is rather amazing.

I can't remember, do we have any hands tests with actual games that push the system in terms of noise level?

It was running Godfall which is 4K/60 with RT effects under studio lights in a supposedly 30C room, and every impression said it was nigh inaudible (and did confirm it was running since it was producing hot air). Sounds promising, especially with the dust collection keeping the cooling performance higher longer term.

 

[01011001]

now we just need to hope they have their liquid metal under control.

 

[Aidah]

I can't remember, do we have any hands tests with actual games that push the system in terms of noise level?

Tests? Not really, but general impressions from Japanese gaming media.

 

[THE DUCK]

Well that's excellent news if it flushes out to be true. Much rather have a large ps5 with quiet fans vs a small one that's loud.

 

[01011001]

Tests? Not really, but general impressions from Japanese gaming media.

japanese gaming media is a very generous description...
more like Japanese YouTubers trying to get some content.

 

[Aidah]

japanese gaming media is a very generous description...
more like Japanese YouTubers trying to get some content.

No, Japanese gaming media as well. I completely ignored the YouTubers in my post.

 

[ethomaz]

now we just need to hope they have their liquid metal under control.

Liquid metal after applied will never need to be under control.

 

[-Arcadia-]

now we just need to hope they have their liquid metal under control.

When you drop your PS5

 

[FrankWza]

So, Sony can alter fan speed after a game’s release to allow for better airflow? Even 3rd party games? Is that what he meant?

 

[quest]

This makes zero sense with how the variable clocks work it should never need fan profiles per game. It should be set once and that is it. That was supposed to be the point of the clockspeed on the cooling side. So are the fan speeds turned down for reviews and turned up later that would be dirty pool.

 

[01011001]

When you drop your PS5

 

[LordOfChaos]

This makes zero sense with how the variable clocks work it should never need fan profiles per game. It should be set once and that is it. That was supposed to be the point of the clockspeed on the cooling side. So are the fan speeds turned down for reviews and turned up later that would be dirty pool.

My guess, that while maximum power is capped and frequencies are uncapped, there will still be differences in how games accumulate heat. One may have low use times, in which case there's no need to run the systems at max power, while another may have few such breaks, so there's still differences in how the thermals saturate.

With this more advanced system, they can learn that hey, this game is about to get really taxing, instead of going from 2000rpm to 4000, we can keep steady at 3000, that kind of thing.

 

[Kumomeme]

the fans profile data from apu that they will get surely will be usefull when designing cooling system for slim or midgen refresh later.

 

[quest]

My guess, that while maximum power is capped and frequencies are uncapped, there will still be differences in how games accumulate heat. One may have low use times, in which case there's no need to run the systems at max power, while another may have few such breaks, so there's still differences in how the thermals saturate.

With this more advanced system, they can learn that hey, this game is about to get really taxing, instead of going from 2000rpm to 4000, we can keep steady at 3000, that kind of thing.

When you know the max power draw and will be there most of the time in next generation games you set the cooling to just run to exhaust that much heat it is simple. No need to move around the fan speeds per game unless Sony is omitting something. The system would be designed to run 24-7 at max with no real strain and with that beefy cooling system it should be zero issue. Slowing Down the fan won't add life when it is a big slow spinner. It should spin up to one speed in game mode that's it since power draw is known. None of the rev up and down like a fixed clock unit.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Obviously I know nothing about electrical engineering and the like, but for me this all sounds rather overcomplicated with lots of possible points of failure. I hope their concept works because it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we see tons of faulty machines in the first year.

 

[DrScissorsMD]

I’ve got the technical know-how of a brick so as long as it works and doesn’t catch fire or explode in the next five years, good enough for me.

 

[LordOfChaos]

When you know the max power draw and will be there most of the time in next generation games you set the cooling to just run to exhaust that much heat it is simple. No need to move around the fan speeds per game unless Sony is omitting something. The system would be designed to run 24-7 at max with no real strain and with that beefy cooling system it should be zero issue. Slowing Down the fan won't add life when it is a big slow spinner. It should spin up to one speed in game mode that's it since power draw is known. None of the rev up and down like a fixed clock unit.

Their engineers say otherwise, so that's kind of that. If a game has low system use times, there's no sense in keeping the clocks and power use high. Another game may always keep it busy.

In other words, it caps the maximum power, but not the minimum, or average. Fixed fan speeds are a thing of the past, it should still respond accordingly.

Flip it the other way - do you want the locked max speeds running when you're playing a 2D dolphin game?

 

[TLZ]

Very assuring. Thank you.

now we just need to hope they have their liquid metal under control.

I'm going to keep my PS5 sitting horizontally, just to be safe.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[Neo_game]

This makes zero sense with how the variable clocks work it should never need fan profiles per game. It should be set once and that is it. That was supposed to be the point of the clockspeed on the cooling side. So are the fan speeds turned down for reviews and turned up later that would be dirty pool.

PS5 gpu drop is only suppose to be 2%. So that will barely have any effect on performance. The fan will kick in at higher speed if it gets hotter. This is pretty normal thing to occur. They also mentioned at the worst case the console will gracefully shutdown to prevent any damage to the console.

 

[jaysius]

So, the PS5 might ship quiet and that might last half a year but even if you get a “quiet unit” and win some fan lottery like the PS4 Pro there’s still no guarantee that your machine will be quiet for certain games... so Sony might have learned nothing from the complaining of the PS4 Pro owners... that’s about right for Sony.

We shall wait and see, but this really cemented the PS5 as a “wait for the slim/revision” until they possibly get this sorted.

The 8mm m2 HEIGHT restriction probably won’t effect many cases it will impact a few M2 drives already on the market, let’s hope they did extensive testing of that expansion slot with ssd under heavy load. This design might become an issue later in the console’s life if the slimmer drives fall out of fashion with the PC crowd.The heat question had an interesting response, they seem confident in their solution.

Something that NOBODY is talking about but I’m hoping there is a solution for, is what happens if the SOLDERED SSD drive dies on either the PS5 or XBOX SERIES S/X,I’m really hoping the case is that it will fail to your expansion ssd and install the OS automatically there in case of fault. Nobody should be without their $500 machine for this reason.

They act like they accomplished some great feat here, but the thing can’t even stand without assistance in either position, and you can make your machine box shaped if you want, they didn’t do themselves any favours with design saving space with this thing at all if it’s going to be huge why not go with a safe traditional design? This fits with nobodies current designs, unless they have a crystal ball and vulvic design is going to be the new norm. Big ugly boxes work for computers and have for eons. AVRs are massive complicated boxes that are fugly and perform complex tasks today and are filled with heat dissipating designs, surely they could have went with that, at least it would look normal next to one. They’re the girl that just got her tongue pierced complaining about her tongue infection.

 

[Aceofspades]

So, the PS5 might ship quiet and that might last half a year but even if you get a “quiet unit” and win some fan lottery like the PS4 Pro there’s still no guarantee that your machine will be quiet for certain games... so Sony might have learned nothing from the complaining of the PS4 Pro owners... that’s about right for Sony.

We shall wait and see, but this really cemented the PS5 as a “wait for the slim/revision” until they possibly get this sorted.

The 8mm m2 restriction probably won’t effect many cases it will impact a few M2 drives already on the market, let’s hope they did extensive testing of that expansion slot with ssd under heavy load. This design might become an issue later in the console’s life if the slimmer drives fall out of fashion with the PC crowd.The heat question had an interesting response, they seem confident in their solution.

Something that NOBODY is talking about but I’m hoping there is a solution for, is what happens if the SOLDERED SSD drive dies on either the PS5 or XBOX SERIES S/X,I’m really hoping the case is that it will fail to your expansion ssd and install the OS automatically there in case of fault. Nobody should be without their $500 machine for this reason.

They act like they accomplished some great feat here, but the thing can’t even stand without assistance in either position, and you can make your machine box shaped if you want, they didn’t do themselves any favours with design saving space with this thing at all if it’s going to be huge why not go with a safe traditional design? This fits with nobodies current designs, unless they have a crystal ball and vulvic design is going to be the new norm. Big ugly boxes work for computers and have for eons. AVRs are massive complicated boxes that are fugly and perform complex tasks today and are filled with heat dissipating designs, surely they could have went with that, at least it would look normal next to one. They’re the girl that just got her tongue pierced complaining about her tongue infection.

Thanks for the laugh, you should right for the onion.

Edit: reading your blabbing post seems like you didn't bother reading the article. What makes you say PS5 should last half a year? Does having the best TIM and largest heatsink and fan assembly not satisfy your concerned ass?

Also what 8mm M2 restriction? That was for the height of the HEATSINK of the M.2 drive. PS5 actually accepts up to 110mm drives in length and they are even actively cooled by PS5 as mentioned in the article.

 

[longdi]

I wonder if ps5 cooling matches the patent?

 

[Paulxo87]

delete

 

[Paulxo87]

If it gets the job done regardless of how complex it is, so be it

But I'm still amazed at how simple and efficient Microsoft's cooling solution is.

If sony is going to such dire lengths then Microsoft's solution should have everyone terrified

 

[sinnergy]

If sony is going to such dire lengths then Microsoft's solution should have everyone terrified

Simple is better, less is more.

anyway don’t like the sound of it literally, what if GTA6 makes the fans louder as it needs more cooling ?? That’s what he is suggesting!

 

[longdi]

If it gets the job done regardless of how complex it is, so be it

But I'm still amazed at how simple and efficient Microsoft's cooling solution is.

Jason Ronald is an up and coming engineering wizard. Imo Series X hit it home with the hardware.

Slick, most powerful, efficient, compact, silent, priced to kill

I won't be surprised if Apple tries to poach him, or even within MS Panos group.

 

[mansoor1980]

y didnt sony go with vapor chamber cooling?

 

[Ar¢tos]

If it gets the job done regardless of how complex it is, so be it

But I'm still amazed at how simple and efficient Microsoft's cooling solution is.

That's why nobody is talking about it.
So it's not all good.
Sony is getting tons of free media time with doing things different (regardless of being better or worse), from weird cooling to weird console design to controller.

Sometimes getting more media interest turns out better (saleswise) than having a better product.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Red Ring of Death 2 incoming.

 

[vpance]

So the TIM on the other side of the shield board is like some big rubber pad when it hardens? Don't think that was visible in the teardown vid.

 

[Aceofspades]

I wonder if ps5 cooling matches the patent?

Yes, there was small heatsink at the other side of the APU.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Sounds amazing. Looking forward to the inevitable hardware tests by people.

 

[onQ123]

Something people forget about is that PS5 GPU can run above the limit they set for it so if there is code that can use even higher clock speeds without overheating they will probably let some games run at higher clock speeds.

Keeping up with the data & knowing how hot each game make the console would let them know the best way to make games on PS5 & even how to design PS5 Pro or PS6.

 

[freefornow]

Came for the "fan curve adjustment via firmware", left dissapointed

 

[Hawking Radiation]

So, the PS5 might ship quiet and that might last half a year but even if you get a “quiet unit” and win some fan lottery like the PS4 Pro there’s still no guarantee that your machine will be quiet for certain games... so Sony might have learned nothing from the complaining of the PS4 Pro owners... that’s about right for Sony.

We shall wait and see, but this really cemented the PS5 as a “wait for the slim/revision” until they possibly get this sorted.

The 8mm m2 restriction probably won’t effect many cases it will impact a few M2 drives already on the market, let’s hope they did extensive testing of that expansion slot with ssd under heavy load. This design might become an issue later in the console’s life if the slimmer drives fall out of fashion with the PC crowd.The heat question had an interesting response, they seem confident in their solution.

Something that NOBODY is talking about but I’m hoping there is a solution for, is what happens if the SOLDERED SSD drive dies on either the PS5 or XBOX SERIES S/X,I’m really hoping the case is that it will fail to your expansion ssd and install the OS automatically there in case of fault. Nobody should be without their $500 machine for this reason.

They act like they accomplished some great feat here, but the thing can’t even stand without assistance in either position, and you can make your machine box shaped if you want, they didn’t do themselves any favours with design saving space with this thing at all if it’s going to be huge why not go with a safe traditional design? This fits with nobodies current designs, unless they have a crystal ball and vulvic design is going to be the new norm. Big ugly boxes work for computers and have for eons. AVRs are massive complicated boxes that are fugly and perform complex tasks today and are filled with heat dissipating designs, surely they could have went with that, at least it would look normal next to one. They’re the girl that just got her tongue pierced complaining about her tongue infection.

 

[DESTROYA]

now we just need to hope they have their liquid metal under control.

The thermal sponge dam is common practice when using LM and works well , it makes a good seal that prevents it from leaking out. For a console that was designed from the start to be either vertical/horizontal I’m sure Sony tested it throughly .
It’s actually really easy to apply if you have the right tools .

 

[geordiemp]

This makes zero sense with how the variable clocks work it should never need fan profiles per game. It should be set once and that is it. That was supposed to be the point of the clockspeed on the cooling side. So are the fan speeds turned down for reviews and turned up later that would be dirty pool.

LOL fans in XSX, XSS and Ps5 will be programmable fan curves.

Ignorance is bliss.

Most thermal paste solutions degrade much quucker than liquid metal, and as such most consoles get noiser over time as the fan adjusts to both thermals and the control system is the normal solution anyway.

 

[Barakov]

Red Ring of Death 2 incoming.

I can see the red grill of death being a thing.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

They act like they accomplished some great feat here, but the thing can’t even stand without assistance in either position

Anyone can design a CE device in the shape of a box. You may not like the design of the PS5 which is fine, that's your opinion, but Sony designed PS5 to have all these curves and engineered a stand that works in both the horizontal and vertical positions. Compared to MS lazy stand that you can't even remove and looks ugly AF when it's in the horizontal position, yes Sony did accomplish a great feat of engineering.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

If sony is going to such dire lengths then Microsoft's solution should have everyone terrified

It's almost like one system didn't clock high on purpose and changed the form factor.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Simple is better, less is more.

Platitudes are evergreen...

anyway don’t like the sound of it literally

Not many are shocked to hear this .

what if GTA6 makes the fans louder as it needs more cooling ?? That’s what he is suggesting!

It may adapt the fan speed, for all we know the fan is not particularly noisy anywhere in its operating range or the maximum fan speed is the default and it is not noisy and profiles adjust it down and make it even less noisy... it does. It really matter what the detail is here, you already decided that it will be noisy at the faster fan speed settings without knowing anything else about it .

 

[30yearsofhurt]

Western Digital SN850 heatsink is 6.4mm high so it looks good to go.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Anyone can design a CE device in the shape of a box. You may not like the design of the PS5 which is fine, that's your opinion, but Sony designed PS5 to have all these curves and engineered a stand that works in both the horizontal and vertical positions. Compared to MS lazy stand that you can't even remove and looks ugly AF when it's in the horizontal position, yes Sony did accomplish a great feat of engineering.

PS5 is super bad because it has a stand in the horizontal position too, but XSX having a stand that is useless in the horizontal position too, but it sticks to the side is not awesome design? Who does it benefit that you are not allowed to remove it when useless?

 

[cormack12]

Source: https://www.retbit.com/2020/10/18/ps5-cooling-fan-to-be-adjusted-with-firmware-updates/

Optimizations for the PS5 cooling fan will also take place post-launch, according to Playstation’s Yasuhiro Otori, with the next-gen system’s cooling fan capable of being adjusted with future firmware updates.

“Various games will be released in the future, and data on the APU’s (Accelerated Processing Unit) behavior in each game will be collected,” Otori said in an interview with Japanese gaming site 4gamer.net. “We have a plan to optimize the fan control based on this data.” Otori added, “PS5 has three temperature sensors on the main board to control the fan speed based on the internal temperature of the APU and the highest temperature of the three temperature sensors. These fan control parameters will also be updated via online updates.”

What this means is that the PS5’s can be actually be turned down if the game’s performance doesn’t require extra cooling or be increased if the game starts running hot.