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[Knoxcore]

I call the whole continent America. I didn't say US.

Then the correct term would be the Americas. America refers to the US.

 

[G-Unit]

Not raping children and covering it up = 100% doing right by me. Your standards wow.

For an atheist your logic is really dumb

 

[Devolution]

Maybe, just maybe, there are people out there who find Catholicism meaningful, just like others do with regards to other faiths.

You don't need the Church to be a Catholic. In fact I'd argue that's a problem in and of itself. They've convinced people they need the very institution that's rotten to the core. So how do you fix it at this point if you're going to cling to it no matter what?

 

[The Giant]

New pope? who cares. The concept is archaic.

 

[Gotchaye]

Thats not even hard. I and millions are the church. So when you say church you are calling us out. It is quite quite different when you say "some or many". You may think this is semantic for us, but it is not. Again, are we all this evil bitches that don't care?

This is basically a textbook example of a fallacy of division.

 

[Threi]

Feel free to ignore what I say but there's a qualitative difference between helping people with a goal in mind (spreading God's word in religion's case) and helping people because it is the right thing to do.

Most people who do so do feel that it is the right thing to do actually. I'm not talking about the whole "you will accept the lord as your savior or you will go to hell" crap, but more about the lifestyle.

For example people trying to get youth off the street and into churches.


...this is kinda offtopic

 

[TCRS]

Sure. Why not?

Because they believe in the tenets of their church and paying alms is mandatory? What a ridiculous statement.

 

[KillGore]

Then the correct term would be the Americas. America refers to the US.

The Americas, or America, are lands in the Western Hemisphere that are also known as the New World. Comprising the continents of North America and South America,along with their associated islands, they cover 8.3% of the Earth's total surface area (28.4% of its land area).

They're both acceptable names. I'll just stick with "America", for now.

 

[Freezie KO]

Catholicism is far more pro science than any other Christian denomination. It's not even close.

"We're not as bad as the other guys."

 

[Deified Data]

Not raping children and covering it up = 100% doing right by me. Your standards wow.

It's not even the raping children part that bothers me (weird to say, but still). That can be believably placed at the feet of individuals within the church. It's the subsequent cover-up of these crimes by the church that paints it as an amoral organization. Say what you will of the Catholic religion, but the Catholic church as an organization would rather save face by ignoring abuse claims than investigate its own priests. They're a negative force in the world.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Thats not even hard. I and millions are the church. So when you say church you are calling us out. It is quite quite different when you say "some or many". You may think this is semantic for us, but it is not. Again, are we all this evil bitches that don't care?

But it is arguing semantics, unless you truly believe that Devo and others consider you to be a pedophile simply due to your relationship with the church.

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

Leave it.

Yet, you called into question my knowledge of Catholicism when I asked if they should leave.

Stop providing the elites who are morally despicable people with money. If you care so much about what the church does you can supply your money to charitable causes that aren't affiliated with the church that do the same things.

Is this difficult?

They actually say you should give your money to the poor and other charities, such as cancer funds.

 

[Talon]

Leave it. Stop providing the elites who are morally despicable people with money. If you care so much about what the church does you can supply your money to charitable causes that aren't affiliated with the church that do the same things.

Is this difficult?

Devo, unsurprisingly, you know very little about the structure of the institution that you are criticizing.

The Catholic Church in operation is more similar to a confederation over a monarchy. The Vatican has doctrinal control and a degree of economic draw, but it does not have an avenue of controlling the minutiae of every church or entity. The Diocese are effectively franchises of the Catholic Church.

 

[Foxix Von]

Sure. Why not?



They wouldn't claim to be "anti-science," but they sure don't apply the scientific method in determining all of their beliefs.

The scientific method really isn't appropriate to apply to philosophy or belief systems, nor do I think it's fair to attempt to base moral or ethical decisions on the scientific method. It's not a method that's really suited to handle those tasks.

 

[Fenderputty]

No, I am curious to know how you would like Catholics to change the church.

Stop attending and become members of a faith that more aligns with your beliefs? I was once a Catholic myself. I'm now an agnostic, but if I were to ever find faith again, I would not return to the Catholic Church.

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

You don't need the Church to be a Catholic. In fact I'd argue that's a problem in and of itself. They've convinced people they need the very institution that's rotten to the core. So how do you fix it at this point if you're going to cling to it no matter what?

If you don't need a Church, then you're either a lapsed Catholic, non-practicing Catholic, agnostic, atheist, or a non-denominational Christian.

 

[Devolution]

Yet, you called into question my knowledge of Catholicism when I asked if they should leave.



They actually say you should give your money to the poor and other charities, such as cancer funds.

I called into question your assertions that I was painting Catholics as this or that when clearly I know self-identifying Catholics who want nothing to do with the church. Why do you need the institution you know is bigoted and harmful to progress?

 

[Samyy]

For an atheist your logic is really dumb

Ah yes the "you are dumb" argument, saved specifically for when you have no reasonable answer

 

[Knoxcore]

The Americas, or America, are lands in the Western Hemisphere that are also known as the New World. Comprising the continents of North America and South America,along with their associated islands, they cover 8.3% of the Earth's total surface area (28.4% of its land area).

They're both acceptable names.

You just proved my point. Its the Americas. Not America. I know quite a few Canadians and Brazilians would object to calling them America. They identify as North Americans and South Americans.

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

I called into question your assertions that I was painting Catholics as this or that when clearly I know self-identifying Catholics who want nothing to do with the church. Why do you need the institution you know is bigoted and harmful to progress?

I know these very same Catholics as well. They identify themselves as Cultural Catholics and nothing more.

 

[Fenderputty]

You don't need the Church to be a Catholic. In fact I'd argue that's a problem in and of itself. They've convinced people they need the very institution that's rotten to the core. So how do you fix it at this point if you're going to cling to it no matter what?

Uhhh ... you don't? Isn't the whole confession thing and lack of ability to communicate directly with God exacly why Catholics must go to church?

 

[ComputerMKII]

There are incredible amounts of trolling in this thread and it's tempting to contradict some people here but few of them seem to actually want a discussion (which, by definition, has to go both ways). It's like everyone is repeating their vile arguments and insults as loud as possible and shout LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU

 

[Monocle]

Another filthy homophobic traditionalist claims the papacy. Keep pretending to care about the downtrodden disenfranchised while you discriminate against women and sexual minorities, why don't you? And in the meantime, make more pious noises about the Church being a force for good and a moral anchor to modern society.

So how should Catholics "stop propping up such an abusive and decrepit institution?" Abandon Catholicism?

Refuse to overlook or make excuses for all the sex abuse? Insist on accountability at every level of the organization? Speak out in one's own community against the Church's disgusting policies on contraception, gay marriage, and adoption by same sex couples?

 

[TheNatural]

Not raping children and covering it up = 100% doing right by me. Your standards wow.

Every priest did that though right? Everyone who walked into a church did that? That's who you're generalizing. The Catholic church isn't one little building, it's hundreds of thousands of different people involved on every level in every city of the world. 99.999% of people who go to a Catholic church haven't seen a high position Cardinal in their lives.

Some of you are so full of shit it's funny. You bitch on an internet forum when it's convenient for you.

If you don't believe in a certain religion or political movement, then of course it's convenient to point out all the horrible acts involved with people in that organization, then generalize everyone else in it as exactly the same.

But when it's something someone likes or supports then it's a different story. "Oh hey Apple has a new shiny iPhone. Who gives a fuck some of the people who made my shiny new product are committing suicide because they're paid slave labor wages for 80 hours a week, ooh a new charger."

This bullshit gets old. If a part of something I'm not in does something bad, then 100% of everyone in it is bad, and 100% of everyone in it should fuck off and die.

 

[Devolution]

Uhhh ... you don't? Isn't the whole confession thing and lack of ability to communicate directly with God exacly why Catholics must go to church?

Nope. I get that you need it for various religious sacraments but if you identify as it and don't want to deal with the Catholic Church then why should you have to denounce being Catholic? That's pretty self-defeating and makes it that much easier to force a connection with such a rotten institution.

 

[akira28]

It's interesting how some leaders from the Church have in effect said if you don't like how things are being done, leave the Church. They wouldn't dare cast you out, but if you left on your own, even better. It's like a dysfunctional family living with abusive and alcoholic parents.

 

[Gotchaye]

If you don't need a Church, then you're either a lapsed Catholic, non-practicing Catholic, agnostic, atheist, or a non-denominational Christian.

You say "a Church". Do you mean "the Church". "A Church" doesn't have to be this Church, and Catholics could deny the legitimacy of the Vatican in favor of some other, better institution. But if you do mean "the Church", the claim you're making only works because you've defined "Catholic" as someone who supports this particular institution. In that case, sure, Catholics are all at least somewhat culpable and the only morally acceptable thing for an individual to do is to stop being Catholic. This is not how many self-described Catholics define Catholicism, though.

 

[KtSlime]

As a matter of fact I di

Hehe

Uhhh ... you don't? Isn't the whole confession thing and lack of ability to communicate directly with God exacly why Catholics must go to church?

Worked out well enough for Luther.

 

[Arcteryx]

I'm not particularly knowledgeable regarding large segments of world history but I'd love to do some reading on the Crusades if you or anyone else has some good links to throw me.

Edit: Ah, gotcha so you're generally referencing the concept of a deity and all of the religion/worship baggage/philosophical hurdles that goes with it then I take it?

Check out: The Dream and The Tomb, by Robert Payne. Very well written, almost reads like a story, lots of attention to the major "characters", and it has viewpoints from both "sides".

 

[KillGore]

You just proved my point. Its the Americas. Not America. I know quite a few Canadians and Brazilians would object to calling them America. They identify as North Americans and South Americans.

I didn't prove your point. It says The Americas OR America. Both are acceptable terms. Not sure why that's such a problem with you. Also, Canadians and Brazilians don't decide the name of a continent. You're trying to correct me on something that's not wrong, both names are permitted. Some people prefer to separate themselves from americans (from the US) while others don't want people to think "americans" are exclusively for people from the US. Everyone who lives in the continent of america is an american. Why are we even having this discussion? We're both right.

The Americas or America, both are right.

 

[FyreWulff]

Uhhh ... you don't? Isn't the whole confession thing and lack of ability to communicate directly with God exacly why Catholics must go to church?

The confession thing is so priests can get all the dirt on the congregation so they can more control.

If they're followers of Jesus, then they don't need a building or someone else to talk for them. Says so himself.

Or to put it another way, he'd be coming in and throwing over tables in the Catholic church right now.

 

[G-Unit]

This is basically a textbook example of a fallacy of division.

W.E you say. Remember when the only thing I asked was respect and we got all this you are and you are, just because people can't respect other peoples views? I guess for some people is impossible to criticize without insulting. But really the worst part is when people fail to realize there are things beyond a quick look.

 

[Lady Deathstrike]

Refuse to overlook or make excuses for all the sex abuse? Insist on accountability at every level of the organization? Speak out in one's own community against the Church's disgusting policies on contraception, gay marriage, and adoption by same sex couples?

Except, many Catholics have been vocal about this and it has not ceased but has gone on even louder. Rightfully so.

The latter, you will never see the church give the two-thumbs up, except for adoption by same sex couples as there are people who believe it is better for a kid to be in a home rather than in a foster home.

 

[Deified Data]

Every priest did that though right? Everyone who walked into a church did that? That's who you're generalizing.

The organization covered it up, yes.

 

[akira28]

Uhhh ... you don't? Isn't the whole confession thing and lack of ability to communicate directly with God exacly why Catholics must go to church?

Nah. mostly bullshit middleman stuff. We need the fancy powders and incense and we need to pay our tithe and get the sacraments and secret passwords or else we won't be admitted into heaven bullshit that we generally put up with.

But oh, if we didn't, wouldn't they be surprised?

 

[TheNatural]

The organization covered it up, yes.

By this logic, I'm personally responsible for everything the US government covered up or ever committed an act of malice because I'm a US citizen.

 

[Freezie KO]

The scientific method really isn't appropriate to apply to philosophy or belief systems, nor do I think it's fair to attempt to base moral or ethical decisions on the scientific method. It's not a method that's really suited to handle those tasks.

The scientific method is appropriate to apply to "belief systems" as long as those belief systems make any objective claims about reality, which Catholicism does.

 

[Talon]

You don't need the Church to be a Catholic. In fact I'd argue that's a problem in and of itself. They've convinced people they need the very institution that's rotten to the core. So how do you fix it at this point if you're going to cling to it no matter what?

This is 100% wrong. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Catholicism is not Protestantism. You can be Unitarian, Lutheran, Baptist, Full Gospel, etc. without belonging to a church.

You are not a Catholic without the sacraments.

Hell,the entire idea of the Mass is oriented around the three: liturgy of the word, the liturgy of the eucharist and communion. There's a reason two thirds of mass is effectively oriented around the eucharist - it's THE critical symbolic rite of the Catholic faith.

 

[SeanR1221]

The confession thing is so priests can get all the dirt on the congregation so they can more control.

If they're followers of Jesus, then they don't need a building or someone else to talk for them. Says so himself.

Or to put it another way, he'd be coming in and throwing over tables in the Catholic church right now.

Side note

In high school I once sabotaged a priests' message board. You could make any name you wanted and post and I was posting as Jesus, God and various other religious characters. It got so bad he shut it down.

I then went to behind the back confession and told him it was I, the message board guy. He was shaking with anger, but held it together and didn't turn around. Props.

 

[Devolution]

Every priest did that though right? Everyone who walked into a church did that? That's who you're generalizing. The Catholic church isn't one little building, it's hundreds of thousands of different people involved on every level in every city of the world. 99.999% of people who go to a Catholic church haven't seen a high position Cardinal in their lives.

Some of you are so full of shit it's funny. You bitch on an internet forum when it's convenient for you.

If you don't believe in a certain religion or political movement, then of course it's convenient to point out all the horrible acts involved with people in that organization, then generalize everyone else in it as exactly the same.

But when it's something someone likes or supports then it's a different story. "Oh hey Apple has a new shiny iPhone. Who gives a fuck some of the people who made my shiny new product are committing suicide because they're paid slave labor wages for 80 hours a week, ooh a new charger."

This bullshit gets old. If a part of something I'm not in does something bad, then 100% of everyone in it is bad, and 100% of everyone in it should fuck off and die.

Do you live in some parallel universe where the Catholic Church hasn't gone out of their way to hide the perps and cover up the scandals? Who was the last Pope? Oh right.

 

[G-Unit]

Ah yes the "you are dumb" argument, saved specifically for when you have no reasonable answer

I still find that answer dumb... what can I do.

 

[jmdajr]

This is all very entertaining.

 

[TheNatural]

Do you live in some parallel universe where the Catholic Church hasn't gone out of their way to hide the perps and cover up the scandals?

Who the fuck are you referring to when you say "the Catholic Church?" The neighborhood priest who's never known or done anything to anyone is as much the Catholic Church by your generalizations as anyone.

 

[el retorno]

You don't need the Church to be a Catholic. In fact I'd argue that's a problem in and of itself. They've convinced people they need the very institution that's rotten to the core. So how do you fix it at this point if you're going to cling to it no matter what?

Uh.... Yes you do. Catholics can't leave the Church because then they would not be catholics.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

Leave it. Stop providing the elites who are morally despicable people with money. If you care so much about what the church does you can supply your money to charitable causes that aren't affiliated with the church that do the same things.

Is this difficult?

Here in Ireland, attending mass is so ingrained in the culture for older generations that I can't see that I can't see people leaving even though, we've been hit with some of the worst cases if clerical abuse. I'm not Catholic myself but my parents are and even the notion of leaving the church would never occur to them in the slightest even though they're strongly against and appalled by what has come out.

 

[WedgeX]

Leave it. Stop providing the elites who are morally despicable people with money. If you care so much about what the church does you can supply your money to charitable causes that aren't affiliated with the church that do the same things.

Is this difficult?

To build upon this.

Nearly two-thirds of Catholics polled said they had not changed the amount of money they contributed to the church in the last few years; 16 percent said they gave more; 17 percent said less. Of those giving less, half said it was because of financial circumstances, and one-quarter cited unhappiness with the church.

That's about 4% giving less now that they are unhappy with the church. The survey didn't go into those who attend less frequently and do not give at all. Part of the problem with the church currently is that its finances are no where near transparent. Funds given to the church at the parish level could go anywhere, charities, running a parish, going to lawsuits or covering up abuses, paying for memorials in far off places, anything. The Vatican bank is possibly very corrupt/mismanaged/has different priorities than Catholic Charities....but no one knows. The Washington Post put together an excellent article on the subject. Unrelated to the bank...

Yet even as six in 10 Catholics characterize the church as not in sync with their attitudes and lifestyles, 86 percent said it remains relevant, according to the poll, conducted last week. And more than two-thirds of the Catholics polled praise Benedict, saying he did a “good” or “excellent” job.

The seemingly contradictory results reflect a schism between regular churchgoers and those who attend church less frequently. Catholics who go nearly weekly are more likely to say they want the new pope to maintain traditions. Those who go less frequently are more apt to favor change.

...

There is overwhelming disapproval among Catholics and Americans in general over the church’s handling of the revelations.

Eight in 10 of all Americans polled disapprove of the church’s actions, with most disapproving “strongly.” That is the highest level on record in Post polls. Catholics are hardly more forgiving, with 78 percent disapproving of the church’s response.

Those who are unhappy with the church stop attending mass but still identify as Catholic. Possibly they stop contributing, but its not quantified. They want change and want priests to face justice. But attending less regularly gives them less clout in parishes. What little clout lay people enjoy, that is. Its a double edged sword.

I'm actually getting the chance to see the Post's On Faith editor this month. Should be interesting should this come up.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Do you live in some parallel universe where the Catholic Church hasn't gone out of their way to hide the perps and cover up the scandals? Who was the last Pope? Oh right.

Benedict XVI didn't cover up child abuse cases. In fact, he was quite severe against pedophile priests.

 

[hym]

The organization covered it up, yes.

But that's not unusual, the army has covered up sexual abuse for decades, Jewish Orthodox communities still do it to the point where parents of abused children are expelled when they go to law enforcement for help. As horrible as it is, it's not unusual for people that have gathered a lot of power to value their reputation above anything, including Justice for the most heinous crimes.

 

[KtSlime]

By this logic, I'm personally responsible for everything the US government covered up or ever committed an act of malice because I'm a US citizen.

You are complicit in the action if you are aware yet don't criticize the US for it's infractions against human rights, yes.

 

[Gotchaye]

This is 100% wrong. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Catholicism is not Protestantism. You can be Unitarian, Lutheran, Baptist, Full Gospel, etc. without belonging to a church.

You are not a Catholic without the sacraments.

Hell,the entire idea of the Mass is oriented around the three: liturgy of the word, the liturgy of the eucharist and communion. There's a reason two thirds of mass is effectively oriented around the eucharist - it's THE critical symbolic rite of the Catholic faith.

Right, so get some of your friends together and form a church and do that. There have been schisms before. Don't belong to an organization which is subordinate to the actual Vatican we have. Form a true-Church-in-exile. Plenty of people call themselves Catholic and yet don't support the Vatican in any way.

If God commanding that everyone support this particular, horrible institution is an inherent part of the religion, then, fine, the religion is evil.