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[Kid Kamikaze10]

See, I still remember when many so called bonafide leftists attack BLM and numerous black podcasters after Netroots 16 and beyond.

This Alt Left stuff was a clear fuck up. And so called centrists need to acknowledge that.

But I still remember the above, and the way people talk about Joy Reid and Neera, I see it replicated a lot in left circles when interacting with women of color, especially black women.

Leftists need to interogate that asap.

 

[Haly]

The right uses it as a smear term for progressives in general to make them sound scary (those Antifa are coming after you!!!)

Certain liberals use it as a smear for leftists to paint them as racists, which does a disservice to both the leftists who are fervently antiracist but believe you need socialism as part of the solution and to the progressive movement as a whole by lumping those people in with the kinds of people who are Obama-to-Trump voters

Yes, I get it now. It's just a cute rhetorical trick since the two terms look similar.

Ultimately I don't think it'll make a difference because disingenuous centrists gonna disingenuize but discourse is going to become more annoying than ever.

 

[crooked spin]

Peter Daou leading up to Charlottesville: "Bernie bros need to accept their share of blame for white supremacy in America"

*Nazi drives a car into a crowd of leftist protesters, killing one and injuring dozens*

Peter Daou: "OMG now is not the time to police my tweets there's Nazis, guys."

It's like clockwork.

LOOOL there are dudes up in this thread pulling this exact shit.

 

[sphagnum]

Or ignored that one Bernie rally where two BLM protestors went on stage and got booed and jeered the whole time by the mostly white audience.

It was a rally to celebrate the anniversary of Social Security that Bernie was speaking at, of course people were annoyed that the guy they were waiting to hear got interrupted.

It was a teaching moment ultimately but it's not like people were going FUCK YOU BLM YOUR STRUGGLE IS MEANINGLESS

edit: That's in reference to the crowd itself, there were certainly rude BernieBroReddit types online though

 

[Servbot24]

"Alt-left" is a transparent attempt to put non Trump supporters on the same moral plain as the alt-right.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Shame on Joy Reid, if she had never said Alt Left then Donald Trump would have never tried to pull a "both sides." It's a super dumb term (and yes Joy Reid has a lot of dumb takes) but he would have just used BLM anyway.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Or ignored that one Bernie rally where two BLM protestors went on stage and got booed and jeered the whole time by the mostly white audience.

That was not a Sanders rally, it was an event he was speaking at for social security with many other guest speakers. Two women came up on the stage and grabbed the mike away from him and they were heckled because they didn't let him make his speech.

In the first place, its disingenuous to use such a thing to pretend that progressives are racist and anti BLM somehow. Because Heather disproves this entirely and spent her life doing so.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

See, I still remember when many so called bonafide leftists attack BLM and numerous black podcasters after Netroots 16 and beyond.

This Alt Left stuff was a clear fuck up. And so called centrists need to acknowledge that.

But I still remember the above, and the way people talk about Joy Reid and Neera, I see it replicated a lot in left circles when interacting with women of color, especially black women.

Leftists need to interogate that asap.

Exactly all of this.

 

[Slayven]

It was a rally to celebrate the anniversary of Social Security that Bernie was speaking at, of course people were annoyed that the guy they were waiting to hear got interrupted.

It was a teaching moment ultimately but it's not like people were going FUCK YOU BLM YOUR STRUGGLE IS MEANINGLESS

edit: That's in reference to the crowd itself, there were certainly rude BernieBroReddit types online though

But the crowd called for them to be dragged off.......

But that is beside the point. I just found it funny now the true progressives want to embrace BLM. After tone policing and slandering them

 

[Seiryoden]

The Clinton era of Democrat politics - Third Way Liberalism if you prefer - began with the public disavowal of a prominent female Black activist. Bill Clinton was widely considered unelectable until he shat on Sister Souljah and took a Red Eye to Little Rock to oversee the execution of an intellectually impaired Black man in the face of howls of outrage from the activists who had supported his campaign to that point. The slur "Alt-Left" is nothing new, merely the branding, and those in the centre who value respectability over racial justice will ever be in search of people to mark with a scarlet letter to prove to onlookers that "We are responsible and serious."

 

[Gunblade47]

whenever someone says "alt-left" immediately correct them with "anti-fascist".

It's propaganda 101. And if the left starts fighting between itself again it will work.

People fear that which is drilled into their skulls to fear.

 

[kirblar]

Neera's original use of the term to refer to people on the left/liberal axes carrying water for Russia (just like the alt-right) was fine. But that meaning never caught on and it just became a jumbled mess that didn't really mean anything, and shouldn't be used because of that basic fact, even before conservatives co-opted it as a false equivocation.

 

[jtb]

The Clinton era of Democrat politics - Third Way Liberalism if you prefer - began with the public disavowal of a prominent female Black activist. Bill Clinton was widely considered unelectable until he shat on Sister Souljah and took a Red Eye to Little Rock to oversee the execution of an intellectually impaired Black man in the face of howls of outrage from the activists who had supported his campaign to that point. The slur "Alt-Left" is nothing new, merely the branding, and those in the centre who value respectability over racial justice will ever be in search of people to mark with a scarlet letter to prove to onlookers that "We are responsible and serious."

Is Obama a member of the "Clinton era" of Democratic politics? Because, as far as I can tell, the era of Clintonian politics ended in 2000. If they hadn't died by 2008, 2010 definitely was the nail in the coffin and got rid of just about every competitive blue dog in Congress.

(I'm genuinely curious btw. I'm personally not very sure where to place Obama's "consensus building" into the modern narrative of the Democratic party)

 

[Imm0rt4l]

maybe it's you guys ignoring the fact that the BLM platform is explicitly leftist?

there are racists everywhere, left right and center, but anyone with half a brain can understand that right wing policies are blatantly racist and left wing policies (even if you disagree with them) are anti-racist. punching left on this shit is fucked up and wrong, which is the point of the article in the OP.

This is an important distinction.


It's fucking infuriating the ways in which the Bernie brocialists have tainted discourse with their fuckshit.

 

[Lime]

These are super important twitter threads by Professor Fleming (1 and 2) when talking about the 'internal' dynamics of Democratic ideology and how the refusal to look inwards and instead cast blame on others ("the alt-left") is the mechanic used to deflect criticisms. I think it is especially important for those in here who falsely believes in the implicit fracturing that people like Joy Reid are peddling

I really advise people to read them:

and

sorry for the long twitter threads, but this is an important point when we want to achieve unity between one another. I see liberals and progressives who elsewhere are in agreement with the so-called 'alt-left', but are being poisoned by centrists who argue for the status quo and who think that criticisms of the Democrats are unhealthy and should be silenced.

 

[Slayven]

The Clinton era of Democrat politics - Third Way Liberalism if you prefer - began with the public disavowal of a prominent female Black activist. Bill Clinton was widely considered unelectable until he shat on Sister Souljah and took a Red Eye to Little Rock to oversee the execution of an intellectually impaired Black man in the face of howls of outrage from the activists who had supported his campaign to that point. The slur "Alt-Left" is nothing new, merely the branding, and those in the centre who value respectability over racial justice will ever be in search of people to mark with a scarlet letter to prove to onlookers that "We are responsible and serious."

The sudden war on Kamela Harris thinking "they always go after the women of color first"

 

[ApharmdX]

The Clinton era of Democrat politics - Third Way Liberalism if you prefer - began with the public disavowal of a prominent female Black activist. Bill Clinton was widely considered unelectable until he shat on Sister Souljah and took a Red Eye to Little Rock to oversee the execution of an intellectually impaired Black man in the face of howls of outrage from the activists who had supported his campaign to that point. The slur "Alt-Left" is nothing new, merely the branding, and those in the centre who value respectability over racial justice will ever be in search of people to mark with a scarlet letter to prove to onlookers that "We are responsible and serious."

You know, despite these facts, and the 1994 crime bill, the superpredator comments, etc. the Clintons have a lot of support among older black voters, especially women, even in the 2016 primary and perhaps even today. It's mystifying. I grew up with Clinton as my president but the cracks showed before he left office.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Neera's original use of the term to refer to people on the left/liberal axes carrying water for Russia (just like the alt-right) was fine. But that meaning never caught on and it just became a jumbled mess that didn't really mean anything, and shouldn't be used because of that basic fact, even before conservatives co-opted it as a false equivocation.

I disagree: For the same reason I wouldn't put the Traditionalist Workers Party as alt-left even though that would actually fit, trying to actually use the term alt-left is just gonna cause more problems.

 

[MsVirion]

I've used the term before. I apologize, and will not use it again.

Now, perhaps the people to my left would be kind enough to likewise stop demonizing me by trying to redefine my politics as corporatist, neoliberal or centrist. Just because I'm slightly to the right of you doesn't mean I'm defending, sympathizing with or enabling the actual nazis.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

People on this thread maybe didn't have Facebook conversations with people who were Bernie supporters and who staunchly asserted that Trump became president because BLM scared white people.

I live in an area that's white as hell and I've experienced plenty of racist white people who post on Facebook about BLM thugs (this is immediately followed by an unfriend, I don't tolerate that shit) but in my experience I see pro-BLM stuff from white Bernie supporters that I'm friends with? I'm sure they're racist in ways that come from being white in an overwhelmingly white area (with the same applying to me) but I've never seen anything like blaming BLM for winning Trump the election from any of my white leftist friends.

Which isn't to say those people don't exist, but it is certainly not something I've experienced. Maybe it's an age/demographic thing since basically all my friends are college students or recent grads?

 

[Cipherr]

Please this is a bunch of nonsense.

No, its 100% true.

Edit: I agree thats its not all that important right now. But that doesn't make it any less fucking true.

 

[Gnome Scat]

If "alt-left" means anit-Nazi, anti-KKK, and anti-Confederate nostalgia, then count me in.

However, I figure he meant it more as 'violent liberals,' which I'm not.

 

[kirblar]

You know, despite these facts, and the 1994 crime bill, the superpredator comments, etc. the Clintons have a lot of support among older black voters, especially women, even in the 2016 primary and perhaps even today. It's mystifying. I grew up with Clinton as my president but the cracks showed before he left office.

They're given a pass on the crime bill because crime was legitimately a huge issue at the time and no one had any real idea how to fix it, so people were throwing toilet paper at walls all over the place trying to fix it.

As it turns out, de-leading gasoline and paint ended up destroying the primary root cause of the surge in crime we had seen for the past 50+ years. But at the time, they didn't know that. It's why Giuliani got a lot of credit for doing nothing effective (because rates dropped in NYC like they dropped all over the nation) and why older black Americans are more willing to look past that specific issue.

I disagree: For the same reason I wouldn't put the Traditionalist Workers Party as alt-left even though that would actually fit, trying to actually use the term alt-left is just gonna cause more problems.

It's not a good term to use, but having one for the Michael Traceys of the world would be nice.

 

[Lime]

I've used the term before. I apologize, and will not use it again.

Now, perhaps the people to my left would be kind enough to likewise stop demonizing me by trying to redefine my politics as corporatist, neoliberal or centrist. Just because I'm slightly to the right of you doesn't mean I'm defending, sympathizing with or enabling the actual nazis.

Cool that you're against nazis, but you better not defend Democrats when they are extrajudicially drone striking brown people in the Middle East or ramping up the prison industrial complex or lowering taxes for the most wealthy while the rest of us can't even put food on the table.

The problem is that Democrats refuse to look inwards and accept criticism, especially in regards to their white supremacist capitalism, so they come up with the most inane erasures of leftist criticisms, such as the term 'alt-left'. And I'm sad to see well-meaning people fall for it and join in on the refusal to look inwards about the problems with the Democratic party. That's what's at stake in this current political moment, i.e. the white-washing of the problems with the Democrats.

 

[sphagnum]

I disagree: For the same reason I wouldn't put the Traditionalist Workers Party as alt-left even though that would actually fit, trying to actually use the term alt-left is just gonna cause more problems.

TWP is "left" in the same way that the NSDAP was "left" which is to say that it's not but that it appropriates rhetoric from the left to attack liberalism for the benefit of the right.

 

[jack_package_200]

You know, despite these facts, and the 1994 crime bill, the superpredator comments, etc. the Clintons have a lot of support among older black voters, especially women, even in the 2016 primary and perhaps even today. It's mystifying. I grew up with Clinton as my president but the cracks showed before he left office.

BECAUSE SHE WENT AND EARNED THEIR VOTE

She spoke with those older black women, she spoke with all those mothers who lost their sons to police brutality and gun violence. She went and actually listened to their concerns.

I know many think its just pandering (DUR HOTSAUCE) but she did earn the support of the most reliable voting bloc of the democratic party.

 

[Inuhanyou]

.

Excellent links. This is what Benjamin dixon talks about, what people like Dr. Cornel west have spent their lives trying to teach.

White systemic oppression is everywhere, in the institutions being raised and maintained, and unfortunately many people who claim to be the solutions have actually long exacerbated the problem, at best.

 

[kirblar]

Cool that you're against nazis, but you better not defend Democrats when they are extrajudicially drone striking brown people in the Middle East or ramping up the prison industrial complex or lowering taxes for the most wealthy while the rest of us can't even put food on the table.

The problem is that Democrats refuse to look inwards and accept criticism, especially in regards to their white supremacist capitalism, so they come up with the most inane erasures of leftist criticisms, such as the term 'alt-left'. And I'm sad to see well-meaning people fall for it and join in on the refusal to look inwards about the problems with the Democratic party. That's what's at stake in this current political moment, i.e. the white-washing of the problems with the Democrats.

Under Obama, we had attempts to reform sentencing in the DoJ and let the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire.

Of those three things you've mentioned, the Democrats (as a national party) are only supporting one.

 

[Cranster]

 

[Slayven]

Excellent links. This is what Benjamin dixon talks about, what people like Dr. Cornel west have spent their lives trying to teach.

White systemic oppression is everywhere, in the institutions being raised and maintained, and unfortunately many people who claim to be the solutions have actually long exacerbated the problem, at best.

Fuck Cornell West, the man invalidated any good he did when he questioned another man's blackness

 

[MsVirion]

Cool that you're against nazis, but you better not defend Democrats when they are extrajudicially drone striking brown people in the Middle East or ramping up the prison industrial complex or lowering taxes for the most wealthy while the rest of us can't even put food on the table

I'm a transwoman who can't even afford her companies healthcare package if I want to put food on my table. I vote with Democrats because, despite having numerous issues - including ones you pointed out, I understand that politically in this country it's my best chance of pushing things toward a more progressive platform. I'm sorry if that's not okay with you.

 

[AmayaPapaya]

Yeah trying to draw lines between people who are literal Nazis and KKK members, and people who want universal health care, isn't going to go well. They coined a term for it, legitimized it, now Trump is using it to defend Nazis. Shouldnt be surprising as that's what the other side always does. They took Fake News from us as well (although, that term wasn't a lie, like this one).

These people should be called out, as is anyone who is intellectually dishonest. It's not complicated.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

At least WHFS doesn't have to see this happening.

Too soon

 

[TurnipFritters]

Yeah trying to draw lines between people who are literal Nazis and KKK members, and people who want universal health care, isn't going to go well. They coined a term for it, legitimized it, now Trump is using it to defend Nazis. Shouldnt be surprising as that's what the other side always does. They took Fake News from us as well (although, that term wasn't a lie, like this one).

These people should be called out, as is anyone who is intellectually dishonest. It's not complicated.

If "alt left" wasn't a term he would have just said BLM and liberals.

 

[Lime]

Under Obama, we had attempts to reform sentencing in the DoJ and let the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy expire.

Of those three things you've mentioned, the Democrats (as a national party) are only supporting one.

You could read Professor Flemming's write-up above to see how Democrats are complicit in the oppression of black and brown people, the poor, the US military imperialism, and so forth. You can also find such criticisms in a wealth of academic literature from leftist people of color.

The problem right now is that those in the Democratic party and some of their believers truly want to deflect criticisms, especially from the (apparently radical) left. And in doing so they maintain the status quo of economic inequality, of the prison industrial complex, of US military imperialism, of police brutality, etc.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Really people can say that too many are relitigating the primary but I think people are doing it without realizing it. BLM's platform is a far left platform. A far left socialist candidate doesn't stand to lose much if anything from their base by appealing to them. Only really votes to gain. There were assholes who were loud on the internet but the divide amongst the two groups on the left in my opinion looks larger because the last primary we had two candidates who was really good at the thing the other candidate was really bad at. That was mostly coincedence and circumstance given their careers vs a standard position held by whoever holds similar opinions. It's not impossible to be good at both.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

BECAUSE SHE WENT AND EARNED THEIR VOTE

She spoke with those older black women, she spoke with all those mothers who lost their sons to police brutality and gun violence. She went and actually listened to their concerns.

I know many think its just pandering (DUR HOTSAUCE) but she did earn the support of the most reliable voting bloc of the democratic party.

I think you skipped my link to a video. Here I'll link it again for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqLfvQfuvsA

 

[The Greek Freak]

Shocking that cowardly centrists and moron no nothings like Joy Reid play into the right's hands.

Oh wait no this is just example #4674

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

...

I agree with a lot of her critiques, but one of my biggest problems with de-colonizers, West included, is that they acknowledge the moral depravity of global politics...

But their solutions only really work in a moral global political scene. Would normally lead to the US getting their collective asses whooped on multiple levels, with another world power controlling the geopolitical scene.

 

[jack_package_200]

I think you skipped my link to a video. Here I'll link it again for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqLfvQfuvsA

And yet Hillary won that group.

That video does not dispute that at all. Older minorities particular older black women carried Hillary to victory in the primary.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

And I got to say again, the way I hear folks talk about people like Neera and Joy says a lot about the discourse toward black/women of color on the left.

It is not a good look, and don't think women of color aren't paying attention.

A lot of tension would ease up without that rhetoric.

 

[TurnipFritters]

And I got to say again, the way I hear folks talk about people like Neera and Joy says a lot about the discourse toward black/women of color on the left.

It is not a good look, and don't think women of color aren't paying attention.

A lot of tension would ease up without that rhetoric.

Yeeeeah. Neera and Joy do frequently have some real bad takes, but they tend not to be saying anything that a bunch of other white guy pundits aren't.

 

[VendettaRed07]

And I got to say again, the way I hear folks talk about people like Neera and Joy says a lot about the discourse toward black/women of color on the left.

It is not a good look, and don't think women of color aren't paying attention.

A lot of tension would ease up without that rhetoric.

I totally agree with this. People need to calm down. Because even if their preferred candidate in the future does improve on a lot the mistakes Sanders made, their going to be hurt if people who have been over zealous, acting like assholes end up attach themselves to them.

 

[ApharmdX]

They're given a pass on the crime bill because crime was legitimately a huge issue at the time and no one had any real idea how to fix it, so people were throwing toilet paper at walls all over the place trying to fix it.

As it turns out, de-leading gasoline and paint ended up destroying the primary root cause of the surge in crime we had seen for the past 50+ years. But at the time, they didn't know that. It's why Giuliani got a lot of credit for doing nothing effective (because rates dropped in NYC like they dropped all over the nation) and why older black Americans are more willing to look past that specific issue.

While that's true, a lot of the talk on crime in the 90's was heavy with dogwhistle language, including from the Clintons. It wasn't really acceptable back then, and surely today would be beyond the pale. I started to get into activism during this time so it sticks with me, just a whole lot of racism and ugliness. Welfare reform and the changes to the prison system in particular targeted blacks and the Clintons were aware of that, but charged ahead anyway, determined to win that moderate vote.

I've never heard that theory about lead and crime rates; it makes sense. I have heard that legalized abortion decreased the crime rate, possibly, as well. But yeah, crime went down because of other factors, it wasn't the crime bill or expanded police powers. Yet those things have left a lasting legacy of harm in communities across America. And we can thank the Clintons in part for that.

BECAUSE SHE WENT AND EARNED THEIR VOTE

She spoke with those older black women, she spoke with all those mothers who lost their sons to police brutality and gun violence. She went and actually listened to their concerns.

I know many think its just pandering (DUR HOTSAUCE) but she did earn the support of the most reliable voting bloc of the democratic party.

Hillary did have the most consistent message to black voters in 2016, sure. It wasn't enough to sway me in the primary in light of her 90's positions or back in 2008 when her campaign used racial "otherness" attacks against Obama.

 

[Lime]

And yet Hillary won that group.

That video does not dispute that at all. Older minorities particular older black women carried Hillary to victory in the primary.

The problem with the "Hilary won the Black demographic" narrative is that it only refers to the ones who voted for either Hilary or Bernie. It doesn't take into account that *neither* Bernie or Hilary invigorated the ones who didn't go out to vote (or who were suppressed to vote), so you still have the problem that both politicians didn't actually appeal that much to the multiplicity of Black US voters.

I agree with a lot of her critiques, but one of my biggest problems with de-colonizers, West included, is that they acknowledge the moral depravity of global politics...

But their solutions only really work in a moral global political scene. Would normally lead to the US getting their collective asses whooped on multiple levels, with another world power controlling the geopolitical scene.

Sorry, I don't understand your point. You're saying that if the US stopped invading other countries and murdering non-US citizens, another world power would simply take over and control the geopolitical scene? The solution that the 'far left' is proposing is simply to stop the US military from bombing and killing brown people and from destabilizing entire countries and regions with all the US death machines and weaponry.

 

[Borgnine]

Right is ok but alt-right is bad so let's put alt in front of left to make it bad? Is this as far as the thinking went? This isn't like co-opting fake news, it doesn't even make sense.

 

[Ottaro]

If "alt left" wasn't a term he would have just said BLM and liberals.

Better that than a term invented by them solely to undermine us.

 

[Cocaloch]

I maintain that there is no such thing as the alt-left and anybody on the left who uses it, either as an ironic self-reference or some sort of centrist short-hand, needs to stop immediately.

That said, almost literally no one maintained such a thing as the "alt-left" existed until yesterday when racists made it up. If somebody says "alt-left" to you, you should same the same thing every single time: there is no such thing as the alt-left.

I've been called alt-left on this board, and it wasn't in the last two days.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Fuck Cornell West, the man invalidated any good he did when he questioned another man's blackness

Meh, I do that shit daily.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

And yet Hillary won that group.

That video does not dispute that at all. Older minorities particular older black women carried Hillary to victory in the primary.

Since she won the vote from older black women that washes her hands?