Support NeoGAF

[TurnipFritters]

Since she won the vote from older black women that washes her hands?

No but perhaps we could try examining why she won their vote despite her history.

Better that than a term invented by them solely to undermine us.

What do you think the term "liberal" is

 

[kirblar]

You could read Professor Flemming's write-up above to see how Democrats are complicit in the oppression of black and brown people, the poor, the US military imperialism, and so forth. You can also find such criticisms in a wealth of academic literature from leftist people of color.

The problem right now is that those in the Democratic party and some of their believers truly want to deflect criticisms, especially from the (apparently radical) left.

If you want to be taken seriously on this, using the phrase "Corporate Dems" is not the way to do it. (see: TYT, who love spouting the phrase just as they took in $20M of venture funding)

The problem the Dems face as a party is that they just had a candidate explicitly denounce white supremacy. And she lost. In part because a whole bunch of rural white people are massively over-represented electorally and who get very angry when they see stories about BLM, Colin Kapaernick, etc. We have a lot of data on Obama->Trump flippers. They voted on white identity politics. This is very bad. Post-LBJ, we're only getting into power w/ DDD setups for brief windows after the GOP fucks up really bad. Nixon. Bush's tax increases+recession. Bush Jr.'s Iraq war and Great Recession.

Figuring out how to win while both avoiding settting off too many of these people while at the same time pushing socially progressive policies is an ugly needle to have to thread. The "Better Deal" stuff that's all economics all the time from congressional leadership is one attempt at doing this.

edit: if you haven't seen this piece yet I'd highly reccomend it: https://agenda-blog.com/2017/07/03/...beralism-and-the-white-working-class/#more-42

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Sorry, I don't understand your point. You're saying that if the US stopped invading other countries and murdering non-US citizens, another world power would simply take over and control the geopolitical scene? The solution that the 'far left' is proposing is simply to stop the US military from bombing and killing brown people and from destabilizing entire countries and regions with all the US death machines and weaponry.

And that would have a lot of good for millions of people.

Until those PMCs look for work. And other countries looking to grow start buying. And they continue the death machine with a different flag until the US gets back into it.

That "simply" is too simple for the nasty geopolitical world we are in. Obama learned that. I'm sure he thought at some point he could do exactly as stated. Nope.

And there probably are reasons for that. I would like to know that, and have solutions that take them into account.

 

[Kin5290]

you can't be in the centre when it comes to being against nazis

It's a good thing that the alleged "center" has come out unanimously against the Nazis, then.

 

[jackal27]

I swear, the Democrats hate themselves more than anyone. We're still doing this huh?

 

[kirblar]

While that's true, a lot of the talk on crime in the 90's was heavy with dogwhistle language, including from the Clintons. It wasn't really acceptable back then, and surely today would be beyond the pale. I started to get into activism during this time so it sticks with me, just a whole lot of racism and ugliness. Welfare reform and the changes to the prison system in particular targeted blacks and the Clintons were aware of that, but charged ahead anyway, determined to win that moderate vote.

I've never heard that theory about lead and crime rates; it makes sense. I have heard that legalized abortion decreased the crime rate, possibly, as well. But yeah, crime went down because of other factors, it wasn't the crime bill or expanded police powers. Yet those things have left a lasting legacy of harm in communities across America. And we can thank the Clintons in part for that.

Here's stuff on Lead Paint & Crime - a great feature on it and then some recent studies backing up the hypothesis. http://www.motherjones.com/environm...sure-gasoline-crime-increase-children-health/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2017/06/01/new-evidence-that-lead-exposure-increases-crime/

There's actually a paper out there about the introduction of lead pipes in the '30s that found a rise afterwards as well.

 

[VendettaRed07]

And yet Hillary won that group.

That video does not dispute that at all. Older minorities particular older black women carried Hillary to victory in the primary.

I think it's worth noting that the GE showed her weakness with the group was more than the primary suggested. She wasn't running against anyone who had any experience in running a national campaign like this; or the connections and ability to be competitive in those areas

I realize that the VRA was effected by the SCOTUS, but even amongst the voters that showed up, going from 94% in 2012 to 87% is a really terrible drop off. I get Hillary wasn't Obama but Romney also wasn't Trump. It's an example of why a skewed primary with not many candidates running is a bad way to select a strong candidate. There was more dissent than the votes accounted for.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Fuck Cornell West, the man invalidated any good he did when he questioned another man's blackness

I do that all the time to republicans and conservatives, problem? If you can't call someone else out for maintaining a system of oppression because "well they're black so obviously can't say anything about them helping to maintain a white power structure!" , your the one in the wrong

I think it's worth noting that the GE showed her weakness with the group was more than the primary suggested. She wasn't running against anyone who had any experience in running a national campaign like this; or the connections and ability to be competitive in those areas

I realize that the VRA was effected by the SCOTUS, but even amongst the voters that showed up, going from 94% in 2012 to 87% is a really terrible drop off. I get Hillary wasn't Obama but Romney also wasn't Trump. It's an example of why a skewed primary with not many candidates running is a bad way to select a strong candidate. There was more dissent than the votes accounted for.

To add onto this...

Sanders won 47% of the vote against the most well established and funded politician in modern political history(during the democratic primaries) after being unknown nationally before 2015 when he opened up his campaign. He went from 3% to 47% just based on his message alone.

I think that says a lot more about her weakness in key areas than anything else personally speaking.

 

[Cocaloch]

alright, i'm gonna step away from the thread. didn't realize how unqualified i was.

after i get my citizenship, how long do i have to wait before i am allowed to discuss american politics? maybe triforce guy can let me know in a PM.

Until you agree with what they have to say I'd assume.

 

[Abelard]

Until you agree with what they have to say I'd assume.

Pretty much, there are non-Americans who are quoted and praised simply because they share certain similar opinions.

And that would have a lot of good for millions of people.

Until those PMCs look for work. And other countries looking to grow start buying. And they continue the death machine with a different flag until the US gets back into it.

That "simply" is too simple for the nasty geopolitical world we are in. Obama learned that. I'm sure he thought at some point he could do exactly as stated. Nope.

And there probably are reasons for that. I would like to know that, and have solutions that take them into account.

So what your saying is that you have no proof of the alternative, rather pseudo-deductive reasoning and instead choose to place bind faith in your country and dear (former) leader Obama?

And PMCs? Dude this isn't Deus Ex/Metal Gear/whatever fiction you're drawing from, do you even know how big Blackwater is?

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Pretty much, there are non-Americans who are quoted and praised simply because they share certain similar opinions.



So what your saying is that you have no proof of the alternative, rather pseudo-deductive reasoning and instead choose to place bind faith in your country and dear (former) leader Obama?

And PMCs? Dude this isn't Deus Ex/Metal Gear/whatever fiction you're drawing from, do you even know how big Blackwater is?

This is why we can't have nice things.

I think the assumption is that some of 1.3 million people currently in the US military might seek work as contractors after we dismantle the military.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

I think the assumption is that some of 1.3 million people currently in the US military might seek work as contractors after we dismantle the military.

Also the fact that even we we ain't all that good on the global stage and we committed many grievous actions as world superpower, China would not be any better if not worse.

I'm all for cutting back on our ludicrous military budget and keeping out of dumb wars but completely dismantling the military is a bad idea and pie in the sky idealism right now.

 

[TWrecks310]

Yeeeeah. Neera and Joy do frequently have some real bad takes, but they tend not to be saying anything that a bunch of other white guy pundits aren't.

I won't dismiss some of the racist hate they get, but Joy in particular is incredibly popular with nearly 800k Twitter followers. A lot of hate goes her way because she is a prominent figure on the left who a lot of other leftists disagree with.

I think a lot of people in general don't understand what the article here is talking about, so I'm going to try and explain in the simplest terms, even if I come off as condescending. The author of the article is on the left, not a Republican trying to deflect blame. You can see her points most clearly through the discussion of one of the top candidates for the 2020 election, Kamala Harris. While Harris is on the left and fully opposes Trump, some of her legislative past can be viewed as problematic, specifically towards the trans community. When this so called "alt-left" raises this point, they are mocked and you see people like Joy talk about how she gets all this hate for being a woman. All of the legitimate problems are then erased, and we begin to deify our candidates while ignoring all criticism that comes from people on the left. The exact same thing happened with Hillary Clinton.

People on the left need to realize that being on the left doesn't just entail opposing Trump, it means progressive policies as well.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

So what your saying is that you have no proof of the alternative, rather pseudo-deductive reasoning and instead choose to place bind faith in your country and dear (former) leader Obama?

And PMCs? Dude this isn't Deus Ex/Metal Gear/whatever fiction you're drawing from, do you even know how big Blackwater is?

This is why we can't have nice things.

Okay, then show your work. If I'm on some bullshit, show that what was brought up actual works/makes sense in this geopolitical climate.

Taking into account the extemely large private and federal military and military culture the US and other countries have.

Not gonna lie, I hope you prove me absolutely wrong.

 

[aeolist]

this is the face of the communist "alt-left"

 

[Slayven]

I do that all the time to republicans and conservatives, problem? If you can't call someone else out for maintaining a system of oppression because "well they're black so obviously can't say anything about them helping to maintain a white power structure!" , your the one in the wrong

“I think my dear brother Barack Obama has a certain fear of free black men,” West said. “It’s understandable. As a young brother who grows up in a white context, brilliant African father, he’s always had to fear being a white man with black skin. All he has known culturally is white…When he meets an independent black brother, it is frightening.”

That is crab in the bucket bullshit.

 

[Verano]

HILLARY WARNED US!!!!!

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

People do realize that Bernie voted for the Crime Bill in the 90s, too, right?

Things were very different then, and not every reference to crime was a reference to black people.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I won't dismiss some of the racist hate they get, but Joy in particular is incredibly popular with nearly 800k Twitter followers. A lot of hate goes her way because she is a prominent figure on the left who a lot of other leftists disagree with.

I think a lot of people in general don't understand what the article here is talking about, so I'm going to try and explain in the simplest terms, even if I come off as condescending. The author of the article is on the left, not a Republican trying to deflect blame. You can see her points most clearly through the discussion of one of the top candidates for the 2020 election, Kamala Harris. While Harris is on the left and fully opposes Trump, some of her legislative past can be viewed as problematic, specifically towards the trans community. When this so called "alt-left" raises this point, they are mocked and you see people like Joy talk about how she gets all this hate for being a woman. All of the legitimate problems are then erased, and we begin to deify our candidates while ignoring all criticism that comes from people on the left. The exact same thing happened with Hillary Clinton.

People on the left need to realize that being on the left doesn't just entail opposing Trump, it means progressive policies as well.

Nah, don't forget that plenty of people weren't just questioning and critiquing.

They were saying never Kamala. They were calling her neoliberal shill. They were putting her down to prop up someone with not even half the record, cause she's black and on Bernie's side.

If it was just critique it wouldn't have turned into a fight.

 

[kirblar]

I won't dismiss some of the racist hate they get, but Joy in particular is incredibly popular with nearly 800k Twitter followers. A lot of hate goes her way because she is a prominent figure on the left who a lot of other leftists disagree with.

I think a lot of people in general don't understand what the article here is talking about, so I'm going to try and explain in the simplest terms. The author of the article is on the left, not a Republican trying to deflect blame. You can see her points most clearly through the discussion of one of the top candidates for the 2020 election, Kamala Harris. While Harris is on the left and fully opposes Trump, some of her legislative past can be viewed as problematic, specifically towards the trans community. When this so called "alt-left" raises this point, they are mocked and you see people like Joy talk about how she gets all this hate for being a woman. All of the legitimate problems are then erased, and we begin to deify our candidates while ignoring all criticism that comes from people on the left. The exact same thing happened with Hillary Clinton.

People on the left need to realize that being on the left doesn't just entail opposing Trump, it means progressive policies as well.

The criticisms of Harris whose timing/motivations people were questioning were not the ones on trans rights.

 

[Cocaloch]

At the end of the day American political culture is a cancer, and I think it's vitally important that people realize that. Americans need to think carefully when engaging in the public sphere about what norms they are perpetuating and why. That means people on the left need to acknowledged the racism that exists there, and liberals need to evaluate why they feel so much more comfortable punching left than right. Moreover, everyone needs to understand the limitations and responsibilities that come from being a broad tent party.

 

[TWrecks310]

Nah, don't forget that plenty of people weren't just questioning and critiquing.

They were saying never Kamala. They were calling her neoliberal shill. They were putting her down to prop up someone with not even half the record, cause she's black and on Bernie's side.

I don't know why you're speaking in past tense here it's not likely the primaries are over for the next election.

I know that some people have done exactly what you outlined here, I just think that group is much smaller than they actually are. Their voices are just much more amplified. The problem is when people take all legitimate criticism for a political figure and say it came from those same people.

 

[aeolist]

People do realize that Bernie voted for the Crime Bill in the 90s, too, right?

Things were very different then, and not every reference to crime was a reference to black people.

this isn't about bernie, who was a flawed candidate who ran a flawed campaign. to a lot of people on the left he is as far right as they can stomach, and many supported him because he was the only national politician giving voice to any leftist politics.

if american leftism starts and ends with bernie sanders we are fucked.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Just to be clear, are we debating who is "responsible" for the term alt-left?

I don't really see the point in arguing about it now that it's being used as a catch-all to describe protesters against Nazis.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

this isn't about bernie, who was a flawed candidate who ran a flawed campaign. to a lot of people on the left he is as far right as they can stomach, and many supported him because he was the only national politician giving voice to any leftist politics.

if american leftism starts and ends with bernie sanders we are fucked.

So this is all about wishing for a socialist utopia? I mean, if Bernie is too far right for the people in question, there's no way they're getting anything remotely satisfying to them by democratic means. That's not what the populace has ever voted for.

 

[kirblar]

Just to be clear, are we arguing who is "responsible" for the term alt-left?

I don't really see the point in arguing about it now that it's being used as a catch-all to describe protesters against Nazis.

Conservatives will take, poison, and weaponize any term. PC. SJW. "Alt-Left". All originally created by liberals to criticize internal factions. All eventually grabbed by the right and used against them.

It has all happened before and will happen again. Doesn't mean you can't use these terms, just that you need to recognize when they're poisoned and abandon them.

 

[TWrecks310]

The criticisms of Harris whose timing/motivations people were questioning were not the ones on trans rights.

I've seen people criticize her for lots of things over the past few months including trans rights. All from people on the left, who you could even go as far to label them some of them as socialists.

Even if the most prominent problems brought up for her or any other candidates are unfair, it is important that we look to find the actual problems rather than ignore them. The day the left begins to accept politicians on the left just because they are Democrats is the day their line of thinking becomes the same as the right. Republicans vote for Republicans because they are Republicans, no matter how shitty that person is. It's part of the reason we are in this mess. I don't want to see the same thing happen on the left.

 

[Lime]

If you want to be taken seriously on this, using the phrase "Corporate Dems" is not the way to do it. (see: TYT, who love spouting the phrase just as they took in $20M of venture funding)

The problem the Dems face as a party is that they just had a candidate explicitly denounce white supremacy. And she lost. In part because a whole bunch of rural white people are massively over-represented electorally and who get very angry when they see stories about BLM, Colin Kapaernick, etc. We have a lot of data on Obama->Trump flippers. They voted on white identity politics. This is very bad. Post-LBJ, we're only getting into power w/ DDD setups for brief windows after the GOP fucks up really bad. Nixon. Bush's tax increases+recession. Bush Jr.'s Iraq war and Great Recession.

Figuring out how to win while both avoiding settting off too many of these people while at the same time pushing socially progressive policies is an ugly needle to have to thread. The "Better Deal" stuff that's all economics all the time from congressional leadership is one attempt at doing this.

edit: if you haven't seen this piece yet I'd highly reccomend it: https://agenda-blog.com/2017/07/03/...beralism-and-the-white-working-class/#more-42

I'll look into this later but the gist of your post is the same sort of compromise that Obama administration and the Democrats peddled during their tenure. And criticizing what the US does under a Democratic Party that commits horrible things is a good thing that should not be condemned or silenced.

And that would have a lot of good for millions of people.

Until those PMCs look for work. And other countries looking to grow start buying. And they continue the death machine with a different flag until the US gets back into it.

That "simply" is too simple for the nasty geopolitical world we are in. Obama learned that. I'm sure he thought at some point he could do exactly as stated. Nope.

And there probably are reasons for that. I would like to know that, and have solutions that take them into account.

Or you know, instead of speculating about what might happen if the US stopped killing and ruining entire nations abroad, they/we could simply stop doing it. Looking at military supremacy and extrajudicial murdering as some sort of responsibility or heavy mantle that the US is forced to bear is frankly appalling.

 

[aeolist]

So this is all about wishing for a socialist utopia? I mean, if Bernie is too far right for the people in question, there's no way they're getting anything remotely satisfying to them by democratic means. That's not what the populace has ever voted for.

is the fact that socialists want socialism somehow surprising to you?

 

[TurnipFritters]

is the fact that socialists want socialism somehow surprising to you?

Given how many people call themselves socialists but only push for softer capitalism, kinda.

I've seen people criticize her for lots of things over the past few months including trans rights. All from people on the left, who you could even go as far to label them some of them as socialists.

Even if the most prominent problems brought up for her or any other candidates are unfair, it is important that we look to find the actual problems rather than ignore them. The day the left begins to accept politicians on the left just because they are Democrats is the day their line of thinking becomes the same as the right. Republicans vote for Republicans because they are Republicans, no matter how shitty that person is. It's part of the reason we are in this mess. I don't want to see the same thing happen on the left.

Sure, but it's also important, very important, to understand why singling out people of color can be a real bad look.

 

[kirblar]

I'll look into this later but the gist of your post is the same sort of compromise that Obama administration and the Democrats peddled during their tenure. And criticizing what the US does under a Democratic Party that commits horrible things is a good thing that should not be condemned or silenced.

It's really not about compromising. It's about how to sneak it in past these voters without attracting their attention.

I've seen people criticize her for lots of things over the past few months including trans rights. All from people on the left, who you could even go as far to label them some of them as socialists.

Even if the most prominent problems brought up for her or any other candidates are unfair, it is important that we look to find the actual problems rather than ignore them. The day the left begins to accept politicians on the left just because they are Democrats is the day their line of thinking becomes the same as the right. Republicans vote for Republicans because they are Republicans, no matter how shitty that person is. It's part of the reason we are in this mess. I don't want to see the same thing happen on the left.

Valid well-intentioned criticism is fine. A campaign of "Neoliberal Shill Corporate Democrat _____" on any candidate you want to pre-emptively attack is not that, it's taking a page out of the GOP playbook they used on Clinton in the 6 years prior to 2016.

 

[aeolist]

Given how many people call themselves socialists but only push for softer capitalism, kinda.

fair enough, though i would caution against taking anyone's immediate policy prescriptions as their ideal end goal. pushing for softer capitalism in present day america is fairly radical.

 

[Nerazar]

this is the face of the communist "alt-left"

Well, if they don't look like that

and stay with the mic and just use their voices to make their point head, noone will ever call them alt-left or anything.

What can be seen in my picture is the endgame of the Antifa and the one thing dragging the progressive cause down.

 

[Cipherr]

I do that all the time to republicans and conservatives, problem?

Yes, its fucking ignorant. Learn to disagree with people (of any race) without being an idiot about it. Seriously, there is no excuse for that shit. We really need to jettison that crap completely.

 

[Wallach]

Well, if they don't look like that

and stay with the mic and just using their voices, noone will ever call them alt-left or anything. Very trustworthy crowd in my picture, I believe.

weren't happy with the original version of your post I guess

 

[Lime]

Just to be clear, are we debating who is "responsible" for the term alt-left?

I don't really see the point in arguing about it now that it's being used as a catch-all to describe protesters against Nazis.

The point is that the term is used by centrists who are more than fine with the status quo of economic inequality, he prison system, US imperialism, etc. to dismiss criticisms of this status quo. In turn, this turns well-meaning people into supporters of the status quo and shy away from people who are providing solutions and acknowledgements of these issues.

 

[Slayven]

Good point if you worried about labels from the right you will be doing nothing else. Look at how many people intentionally misinterpret "Black Lives Matter"

 

[ModBot 2]

The events of Charlottesville are definitely very important and at the top of everyone's minds as they pay attention to what's going on in the country. That being said, we've had somewhere around 40 or 50 threads on the subject in the first 5 days since. It's taking up a lot of our space and making it hard to talk about everything else. As a result, we are locking some threads about Charlottesville, Trump's reaction, peoples' reactions, police reactions, Twitter reactions, voter reactions, confederate statues, confederate flags, the alt-right, Richard Spencer, the KKK, neo-Nazis, violence versus nonviolence against extremists, extremism, or anyone's reaction to any of these things. Feel free to discuss this topic or other related topics in one or more of the topics we leave open and continue making new threads as new events unfold so that we can migrate discussion to the most recent and up-to-date threads.