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Newly unearthed memos provide detail about President Bush's suspension from flying...

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DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/09/bush.guard.ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Newly unearthed memos provide detail about President Bush's suspension from flying during his Vietnam War-era service in the Texas Air National Guard.

The suspension came as Bush was trying to arrange a transfer to non-flying status with a unit in Alabama so he could work on a political campaign there.

A memo written a year later referred to one military official "pushing to sugar coat" Bush's evaluation.

"On this date I ordered that 1st Lt. Bush be suspended from flight status due to failure to perform to USAF/TexANG standards and failure to meet annual physical examination ... as ordered," says an August 1, 1972 memo by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who is now dead.

The same memo notes that Bush was trying to transfer to non-flying status out of state and recommends that the Texas unit fill his flying slot "with a more seasoned pilot from the list of qualified Vietnam pilots that have rotated."

The Vietnam-era documents add details to the explanation of Bush's aides over the years that he was suspended simply because he decided to skip his flight physical.

The White House said in February that it had released all records of Bush's service, but one of Killian's memos stated it was "for record" and another directing Bush to take the physical exam stated that it was "for 1st Lt. George W. Bush."

"I can't explain why that wouldn't be in his record, but they were found in Jerry Killian's personal records," White House communications director Dan Bartlett told CBS's "60 Minutes II," which first obtained the memos.

Bartlett said Bush's superiors granted permission to train in Alabama in a non-flying status and that "many of the documents you have here affirm just that."

A memo dated May 19, 1972, five days after Bush was supposed to have completed his physical, summarizes a telephone discussion with Bush about how he "can get out of coming to drill from now through November."

It says Bush was "told he could do ET for three months or transfer." ET referred to equivalent training, a procedure for meeting training requirements without attending regularly scheduled drills.

The same memo says "we talked abut him getting his flight physical situation fixed" and quotes Bush as saying he would "do that in Alabama if he stays in a flight status." It also says, I advised him of our investment in him and his commitment."

Democratic Party chairman Terry McAuliffe said, "George W. Bush's cover story on his National Guard service is rapidly unraveling. ... George W. Bush needs to answer why he regularly mislead the American people about his time in the Guard and who applied political pressure on his behalf to have his performance reviews 'sugarcoated"'

Bartlett told CBS, "As it says in your own documents, President Bush talked to the commanders about the fact that he'd be transferring to a unit ... in Alabama that didn't fly that plane," the F-102, the type Bush was trained in.

Using only last names, one of the newly disclosed documents points to sharp disagreement among Bush's superiors in Texas over how to evaluate his performance for the period from mid-1972 through mid-1973.

"Staudt has obviously pressured Hodges more about Bush," Killian wrote on August 18, 1973. "I'm having trouble running interference and doing my job -- Harris gave me a message today from Grp regarding Bush's OETR and Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it. Bush wasn't here during rating period and I don't have any comments from 187th in Alabama. I will not rate."

Grp refers to a military unit and OETR stands for officer efficiency training report.

The memo concludes: "Harris took the call from Grp today. I'll backdate but won't rate. Harris agrees."

At the time, Walter B. Staudt was commander of the Texas National Guard; Lt. Col. Bobby Hodges was one of Bush's superiors in Texas who two years earlier had rated Bush an outstanding young pilot; and Lt. Col. William D. Harris Jr. was another superior of Bush's. (Lawsuit uncovers Bush Guard records)

Records released this year when Bush's military service re-emerged as a campaign issue contain no evidence that he reported for duty at all for five months in mid-1972 and document only a few occasions later that year.

Asked about Killian's statement in a memo about the military's investment in Bush, Bartlett told CBS: "For anybody to try to interpret or presume they know what somebody who is now dead was thinking in any of these memos, I think is very difficult to do."
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
*sigh* Why do people care what Bush was up to then? Or Kerry for that matter? Would someone please remind these campaigns that it's freakin' 2004, not 1972?
 
http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewPolitics.asp?Page=\Politics\archive\200409\POL20040909d.html

'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.

Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.

The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.

The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.

But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.I.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that is an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.

"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.

clippy.jpg
 

Phoenix

Member
Dan said:
*sigh* Why do people care what Bush was up to then? Or Kerry for that matter? Would someone please remind these campaigns that it's freakin' 2004, not 1972?

According to the speaker we should care because it 'speaks to the character of the man... if he would lie to the public about this from the oval office he could lie to us about anything else, such as the reasons for invading Iraq'.
 
There were IBM Selectric II typewriters that could produce superscript and proportional spacing as far back as 1966. http://www.ibmcomposer.org/SelComposer/description.htm; hell, as far back as 1941. http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html

Most fonts are designed to accurately mimic the most flexible typefaces in common use, so it's no surprise that Word would match it.

Sorry, Lying Liars, that dog don't hunt.

Also: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/9/153213/0277

Stop getting your news from the Free Republic, and stop supporting a post-abandoning, abortion-advocating coke head. Funny, though, that Drudge would cite CNS news (Cybercast News Service; formerly the Conservative News Service) as any sort of authority. Wait, no it isn't -- he's still a tool!
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
"cnsnews," ah man that's rich. Keep it coming, and maybe next time we can break the 10-second world pwnage record.
 
The beauty of the internet is that you don't have to search long to find some nutjob to validate your POV. You can never be wrong with some sloppy google searching.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
The daughter of Ben Barnes, who really has no credibility, if you know his history is saying he is full of it.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBKAJ3HXYD.html

Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said one of the memos, signed by his father, appeared legitimate. But he doubted his father would have written another, unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's performance review.

"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "The only thing that can happen when you keep secret files like that are bad things. ... No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."

News reports have said the memos, first obtained by CBS's "60 Minutes II," were found in Jerry Killian's personal records. Gary Killian said his father wasn't in the habit of bringing his work home with him, and that the documents didn't come from the family.

The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.

This is wrong, CBS faxed to the White House the documents and the White House released copies of those to the white house press.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
PotatoeMasher said:
You guys are right! All of this stuff is without a doubt true!

No, only your sources were brash enough to make a "without a doubt!!!1oneone" claim (e.g. "That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time"). We were just making fun of the stupidity.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
The day I form opinions based on weblog entries and extremist "news services," please shoot me and anyone like me.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Regardless, this is still a worthless point of debate, much like the swift boat lying bastards. There's plenty of rope to hang Bush with. PEACE.
 
Drinky Crow said:
There were IBM Selectric II typewriters that could produce superscript and proportional spacing as far back as 1966. http://www.ibmcomposer.org/SelComposer/description.htm; hell, as far back as 1941. http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/year_1941.html

Most fonts are designed to accurately mimic the most flexible typefaces in common use, so it's no surprise that Word would match it.

Sorry, Lying Liars, that dog don't hunt.

Also: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/9/153213/0277

Stop getting your news from the Free Republic, and stop supporting a post-abandoning, abortion-advocating coke head. Funny, though, that Drudge would cite CNS news (Cybercast News Service; formerly the Conservative News Service) as any sort of authority. Wait, no it isn't -- he's still a tool!
Looks like the conservative news service was right! Try again!
 

Tenguman

Member
Drinky Crow said:
There were IBM Selectric II typewriters that could produce superscript and proportional spacing as far back as 1966
It's still extremly uncommon to find proportional spacing in documents from the late 60's early 70's. Especially government documents (who, and anyone who's had a govt. office job would know, aren't always up to date on the latest office tech)
 
Tenguman said:
It's still extremly uncommon to find proportional spacing in documents from the late 60's early 70's. Especially government documents (who, and anyone who's had a govt. office job would know, aren't always up to date on the latest office tech)
*Closes Ears* No, don't speak logic to me, please!
 
Tenguman said:
It's still extremly uncommon to find proportional spacing in documents from the late 60's early 70's. Especially government documents (who, and anyone who's had a govt. office job would know, aren't always up to date on the latest office tech)

It's still extremly uncommon to find Bush showing up for National Guard duty. But, that not to say it couldn't of happened, right?
 

Tenguman

Member
also is that font on that document "Times Roman"? Show me a government document from that time that was Times Roman....
 

ced

Member
Dan said:
*sigh* Why do people care what Bush was up to then? Or Kerry for that matter? Would someone please remind these campaigns that it's freakin' 2004, not 1972?

Because Kerry has based his whole campaign on this, its one of the main things in his presidential resume.

As for Bush, he has stated many times that his records are in the open, and they are, cant say the same for Kerry.

I am curious what will come of this, saying its fake seems stupid to me, but certainly not impossible.

Pimpwerx said:
Regardless, this is still a worthless point of debate, much like the swift boat lying bastards. There's plenty of rope to hang Bush with. PEACE.

The lying bastards? You take Kerry's word over "alot" of veterans? You cant be serious. It seems the only "lying bastard" is Kerry himself.
 
ced said:
The lying bastards? You take Kerry's word over "alot" of veterans? You cant be serious. It seems the only "lying bastard" is Kerry himself.


"alot" of veterans that have be discredited over and over again. Have cutting your crunk juice with retarded pills. They have been discredited by the mainstream media and the facts presnted by the US Dept of the Navy.

But, of course McCain was discredited by a similar orgnization as unstable and a having an interracial love child.

Honestly if you were anymore gulliable I'd be tossing you french fries on a state beach.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The lying bastards? You take Kerry's word over "alot" of veterans? You cant be serious. It seems the only "lying bastard" is Kerry himself.
Kerry is not the only one telling Kerry's version of the event in question, including many Swift Boat Vets For Truth members as of a few years ago. ;)
 
Kerry's service records are LINKED OFF HIS DAMN WEB SITE.

Bush STILL hasn't accounted for his absentee period during his National Guard service, and his campaign still keeps trickling information out even after he claims to have released everything. What does it take to make you distrust this guy? Obviously a thousand soldiers killed in a war started on false pretenses, a CIA agent's cover blown, 8 billion dollars missing in Iraq, compromised civil liberties, endless flipflopping from his moderate campaign promises to his current neocon and Fundamentalist-friendly agenda is just pure trivia to you -- when do you start asking the big questions? Or is it all just MISSION ACCOMPLISHED to you?
 

DarienA

The black man everyone at Activision can agree on
Hot Damn Doug is ownin shit left and right.... get outta the way!!!!
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
...endless flipflopping from his moderate campaign promises to his current neocon and Fundamentalist-friendly agenda is just pure trivia to you...
Actually, I think this isn't a flipflop at all. Bush has never actually taken a compassionate conservative stance in policy, only in campaigning. It's newspeak.
 

Dilbert

Member
ced said:
Because Kerry has based his whole campaign on this, its one of the main things in his presidential resume.

As for Bush, he has stated many times that his records are in the open, and they are, cant say the same for Kerry.

The lying bastards? You take Kerry's word over "alot" of veterans? You cant be serious. It seems the only "lying bastard" is Kerry himself.
1) ...and, oh yeah, there IS that long Senatorial career.

2) Kerry's service records are quite public, and, as mentioned, are linked from his site.

3) Ummm...in no way can you claim that Kerry is the only person backing his service record. What about all of the officers who signed off on those forms?

So, you're 0-for-3. Differences of opinion? Sure. Firing off statements which are patently false? Bad idea. Keep up that trolling, and you're going to go on vacation.
 

Phoenix

Member
Hitokage said:
Kerry is not the only one telling Kerry's version of the event in question, including many Swift Boat Vets For Truth members as of a few years ago. ;)

Yeah, and the guy who Kerry rescued was very clear about Kerry's involvement as well.

Kerry was in Vietnam and we're debating one of his medals. Bush wasn't in Vietnam at all because he received special treatment. That's really the only thing relevant to come out of this entire election Vietnam debacle.
 
the bottom line is this.

the chickenhawk,neo-con, bar-stool hero white house gets a free ride all of their lives and is now sending men to die for lies in a place we shoudlnt have been at in the first place. the fucker has to get out of office. but as long as he keeps making you "feel" safer bush is an A-OK guy and not the major league ashole that he is and all-around fuck-up.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
LinesInTheSand said:
Looks like the conservative news service was right! Try again!

lmfao at cheering at "kinds of news." Remind me never to even bother reading any of your bullshit again.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
Kerry's service records are LINKED OFF HIS DAMN WEB SITE.


Not exactly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html


Although Kerry campaign officials insist that they have published Kerry's full military records on their Web site (with the exception of medical records shown briefly to reporters earlier this year), they have not permitted independent access to his original Navy records. A Freedom of Information Act request by The Post for Kerry's records produced six pages of information. A spokesman for the Navy Personnel Command, Mike McClellan, said he was not authorized to release the full file, which consists of at least a hundred pages.

There in lies the problem, Kerry refuses to sign a 180 to release the records which would clear up a lot of things in regards to the swift boats. As for his records on the website, the problem there is its not always accurate.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...errys_thigh_has_shrapnel_records_show?mode=PF

The Kerry campaign removed a 20-page batch of documents yesterday from its website after The Boston Globe quoted a Navy officer who said the documents wrongly portrayed Kerry's service. Edward Peck had said he -- not Kerry -- was the skipper of Navy boat No. 94 at a time when the Kerry campaign website credited the senator with serving on the boat. The website had described Kerry's boat as being hit by rockets and said a crewmate was injured in an attack. But Peck said those events happened when he was the skipper. The campaign did not respond to a request to explain why the records were removed.

Have cutting your crunk juice with retarded pills. They have been discredited by the mainstream media and the facts presnted by the US Dept of the Navy.

What wrong with this is the official navy records come from the action reports, spot reports which they say Kerry wrote. Kerry even admitted to sending in reports in his 1971 testimony, that is where they say he "sexed it up"

http://www.c-span.org/vote2004/jkerrytestimony.asp

Mr. Kerry: I don't know where they came from, sir, maybe Vietnam.

I had direct experience with that. Senator, I had direct experience with that and I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission, and including the GDA, gunfire damage assessments, in which we would say, maybe 15 sampans sunk or whatever it was. And I often read about my own missions in the Stars and Stripes and the very mission we had been on had been doubled in figures and tripled in figures.




And here is yet another problem with the memos

This memo

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust18.pdf

from August 18th, 1973 refers to a Staudt "pressuring" Hodges more about Bush and Staudt wanting to "sugarcoat" a report.

Problem?

http://www.latimes.com/la-na-guard15feb15,1,6240422.story

Bush's application, as well as his commission, were handled by then-Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, who said, "Nobody did anything for him…. There was no … influence on his behalf. Neither his daddy nor anybody else got him into the Guard." Staudt, who retired in 1972 as a brigadier general, said Bush was enrolled quickly because there was a demand for pilot candidates.
 
You DO realize that former high-ranking military officials have presence and influence after they retire, right, especially within their department and branches?
 

Ripclawe

Banned
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/007760.php

CBS is sticking to its story. It's not entirely clear which story, however. Initially, CBS spokeswoman Kelli Edwards said:

As is standard practice at CBS News, each of the documents broadcast on '60 Minutes' was thoroughly investigated by independent experts, and we are convinced of their authenticity.

Later, however, Ms. Edwards sent out an email that appeared to revise the nature of the "authentication" process:

CBS verified the authenticity of the documents by talking to individuals who had seen the documents at the time they were written. These individuals were close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian and confirm that the documents reflect his opinions at the time the documents were written.

So what CBS is now saying is not that the documents are authentic, but that the opinions they express are authentic, based on the hearsay reports of anonymous persons alleged to be close associates of Col. Killian, who recall his views of thirty-two years ago. This is what passes for "authentication" in the mainstream media.
 

KingV

Member
Drinky Crow said:
Kerry's service records are LINKED OFF HIS DAMN WEB SITE.

Bush STILL hasn't accounted for his absentee period during his National Guard service, and his campaign still keeps trickling information out even after he claims to have released everything. What does it take to make you distrust this guy? Obviously a thousand soldiers killed in a war started on false pretenses, a CIA agent's cover blown, 8 billion dollars missing in Iraq, compromised civil liberties, endless flipflopping from his moderate campaign promises to his current neocon and Fundamentalist-friendly agenda is just pure trivia to you -- when do you start asking the big questions? Or is it all just MISSION ACCOMPLISHED to you?

That isn't all of his service records. He still hasn't released the sum total via freedom of information act.
 
AstroLad said:
lmfao at cheering at "kinds of news." Remind me never to even bother reading any of your bullshit again.
I don't appreciate the flame. Your elitist attitude is very grating. Kindly take your ears closed liberal ways and dont reply to me again. Thanks.
 

Phoenix

Member
Bush's application, as well as his commission, were handled by then-Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, who said, "Nobody did anything for him…. There was no … influence on his behalf. Neither his daddy nor anybody else got him into the Guard." Staudt, who retired in 1972 as a brigadier general, said Bush was enrolled quickly because there was a demand for pilot candidates.

He was enrolled quickly because of the pilot shortage (in vietnam) and never once flew a combat sortie? Heck he didn't even fly missions to deliver supplies. He wasn't even staged in theater which seems to me is pretty odd if there really is a high demand for pilots. It would be interesting to see how many people in his guard unit DID actually fly missions over Vietnam.
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
LinesInTheSand said:
I don't appreciate the flame. Your elitist attitude is very grating. Kindly take your ears closed liberal ways and dont reply to me again. Thanks.

A-OK CONSERVAITVE NEWS SERVIEc IS #!!1

Whatever happened to just going to your corner and crying when you feel stupid instead of whining about how everyone is so "elitist?"

God, everyone's a fucking victim of something these days.
 

KingV

Member
Phoenix said:
He was enrolled quickly because of the pilot shortage (in vietnam) and never once flew a combat sortie? Heck he didn't even fly missions to deliver supplies. He wasn't even staged in theater which seems to me is pretty odd if there really is a high demand for pilots. It would be interesting to see how many people in his guard unit DID actually fly missions over Vietnam.


IIRC his unit was at one time scheduled to go to Vietnam, but ended up not going after all. I vaguely remember reading that when this was big news the first time.
 

ced

Member
-jinx- said:
1) ...and, oh yeah, there IS that long Senatorial career.

2) Kerry's service records are quite public, and, as mentioned, are linked from his site.

3) Ummm...in no way can you claim that Kerry is the only person backing his service record. What about all of the officers who signed off on those forms?

So, you're 0-for-3. Differences of opinion? Sure. Firing off statements which are patently false? Bad idea. Keep up that trolling, and you're going to go on vacation.

Your threatening a ban on my "patently false" facts? That would be YOUR differing opinion, but anyways please prove them false.

The Senatorial career? Uh the guy was so absent there isnt much career there. His few votes conflict each other, there just isnt anything to base a career off of there. There is also no way to know what his policies and beliefs are.

I think everyone else has mentioned facts about his records.

BTW the officers signing off wernt there, nor did they care. Kerry wrote his own records, and just NOW are some of these guys coming and seeing these things, and going realizing he bullshitted.

Whats sad here is the majority of you guys arnt voting for Kerry, your just voting agaisnt Bush. Some of you just hate the guy, or are totally offended by his policy or action in Iraq. This is fine, I myself have felt negativly about the WMD deal, but there was more to that in the Iraq war, and anyone with common sense knows it.
 
KingV said:
IIRC his unit was at one time scheduled to go to Vietnam, but ended up not going after all. I vaguely remember reading that when this was big news the first time.


i remember hearing years ago (during the 2000 election IIRC) that Bush was assigned to fly old planes that weren't even in military service in Vietnam anymore, so could be why he never went.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
shit hitting fan, ABC would love to rub this in CBS's face. Nightline is going to cover this according to Instapundit and CBS were holding meetings on this.


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-1.html

False Documentation?
Questions Arise About Authenticity of Newly Found Memos on Bush's Guard Service
ABCNEWS.com


...Experts Question Veracity

Questions are also being raised about the memos by document experts, who say they appear to have been written on a computer, not a typewriter. The memos are dated 1972 and 1973, when computers with word-processing software were not available.

More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

"These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.
 
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