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[Ripclawe]

Washington Post running with it
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A9967-2004Sep9?language=printer


forgot about the washpost/abcnews vs Nytimes/Cbsnews war. This could be interesting.

 

[ced]

Got quiet all the sudden in here.

Where did CBS say these memo's came from anyways?

 

[Phoenix]

i remember hearing years ago (during the 2000 election IIRC) that Bush was assigned to fly old planes that weren't even in military service in Vietnam anymore, so could be why he never went.

Right the F-102 Delta Dagger, which was already being phased out at the same time that Bush was assigned to it. So essentially he was assigned to a plane that had no chance of ever being deployed in theater.... while at the same time there was a pilot shortage...

 

[GG-Duo]

in my opinion
if they produced fake documents - then by all means, roast'em.

On the other hand, if Swift Boat Veterans lied (which they did), then I say we roast'em too.

 

[Ripclawe]

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU SEPT 09, 2004 22:45:32 ET XXXXX

CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED

**Exclusive**

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

MORE

 

[Phoenix]

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned... MORE...

Oh, I'm afraid it will go MUCH further than that. This will result in some form of Congressional hearing soon enough. Anything that can sway the election process that is in error always gets the congressional treatment. CNN found this out when their automated data processing system for the 2000 elections received some bad data during the elections and called Florida in favor Al Gore. Much pain and suffering followed.

 

[Dilbert]

Got quiet all the sudden in here.

Of course -- SOME of us have lives.

 

[AstroLad]

Of course -- SOME of us have lives.

 

[PotatoeMasher]

I guess Drinky wasn't on so much fire after all...

 

[Ripclawe]

Killian wife is going on Nightline and she is pissed.

http://drudgereport.com/cbsd1.htm

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Where are the Drudge haters now?

 

[Demigod Mac]

This is the doing of Karl Rove.

Observe.

http://lasercub.blogspot.com/

 

[PotatoeMasher]

This is the doing of Karl Rove.

Observe.

http://lasercub.blogspot.com/

And the Swiftees are under the direction of Mary Beth Cahill...

 

[Tenguman]

...wait..there is porportional vertical spacing too?! FAKED

CBS, Dan Rather, and John Kerry just got fucked.

 

[Drinky Crow]

I'm not buying the "Karl Rove" conspiracy line -- at best, it would be punishment for breaking the Abu Ghraib scandal wide open, and this is a pretty weak way to do it. Second of all, the memos aren't particularly juicy; they simply confirm what most of us suspect about Bush -- that he went AWOL during the still as-yet-unaccounted nine months he disappeared during his unmeritorious service. Releasing the memos with the contents they have wouldn't exonerate Bush from his questionable military service, although it might put some egg on Dan Rather's jowly face.

That said, I'll be interested to see how it turns out. If they *are* forgeries, well, sucks to be CBS. Maybe a new season of Matlock'll patch things up for 'em. I'm still betting they aren't, because A) many typewriters used serifed faces similar to TR, even if it wasn't explicitly that; B) many typewriters DID have superscript (th, rd keys in particular), and, as I pointed out, typewriters with proportional spacing have been in service since 19-freakin'-41.

I'd say CBS' reaction is more damning, but it doesn't contradict the fact that our president-select was a coward who pulled strings to avoid real service and whose administration has lied time and time again to the American public, at the expense of 1000 trusting soldiers and countless Iraqi lives, all because a few of you think terrorists are magically going to invade your carport some night, and that terrorism is somehow a new concept.

 

[Tenguman]

as I pointed out, typewriters with proportional spacing have been in service since 19-freakin'-41.

yeah, but proportional spacing up and down the page? I don't think so...

B) many typewriters DID have superscript (th, rd keys in particular)

If you look at the documents, you'll notice most words don't contain the superscript. In fact, I've only seen a superscript once so far. IMO, whoever faked these docs took care to remove the automatic superscripting, however it seems that a couple slipped by.

 

[Dilbert]

yeah, but proportional spacing up and down the page? I don't think so...

Unbunch your panties -- it's still ir-fucking-relevant. Bush being AWOL during Vietnam? How about Bush being AWOL during most of his presidency?

 

[Drinky Crow]

Or, conversely, the original typist was uncomfortable with having superscript keys, and used them intermittently.

jinx, yeah, Bush has taken the most days off of any president in recent history, by some ridiculous margin. He's a travesty.

 

[Tenguman]

Unbunch your panties -- it's still ir-fucking-relevant.

Uh, last time I checked we were talking about the documents' legitmacy. I don't want to get into the argument of whether bush was AWOL or not. I'm talking about these documents.

 

[Ripclawe]

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040909-115658-9610r.htm

By Bobby Ross Jr.
ASSOCIATED PRESS

News reports have said the memos, first obtained by CBS' "60 Minutes," were found in Jerry Killian's personal records. Gary Killian said his father wasn't in the habit of bringing his work home with him, and that the documents didn't come from the family.
The personnel chief in Col. Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake. "They looked to me like forgeries," Rufus Martin said. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years."

 

[Dilbert]

Uh, last time I checked we were talking about the documents' legitmacy

So was I. Their legitimacy is irrelevant. Ever wonder why Bush et al want to discuss anything BUT American combat deaths, the sad state of the American economy (including a rapidly ballooning deficit), or the fact that terrorism is a massively overhyped fear campaign used to make certain people wealthy and put everyone else under control?

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Uh oh...

This is finally starting to get interesting.

 

[DarienA]

in my opinion
if they produced fake documents - then by all means, roast'em.

On the other hand, if Swift Boat Veterans lied (which they did), then I say we roast'em too.

As long as somebody gets roasted I'm happy....

 

[Mermandala]

i want to know WHO forged these bush documents and WHY?

i STILL want to know WHO forged those yellowcake documents and WHY?

wonder which is more important? maybe saddam hid the WMD in GWB's guard duty.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Where are the Drudge haters now?

 

[Mustang]

How about Bush being AWOL during most of his presidency?

Panties are indeed getting in a knot. A real big one at that.

This is fun.

jinx, yeah, Bush has taken the most days off of any president in recent history, by some ridiculous margin. He's a travesty.

Anyone else think Drinky despises Bush?

 

[explodet]

American Politics has become something that is weird and scary to me.

I blame the Internet, and the revival of swing music.

 

[Xenon]

This is all a Republican trick. They created those documents and released them knowing that they would be found to be fakes thus discrediting the Dems. DAMN THEM BASTARDS!

 

[Tenguman]

Rather saying that it's not important to question where the documents came from but to question what they mean.....

UH WAY TO GO RATHER! SHOW THAT JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY! Hey look, I just typed up my own Roswell Memo saying that aliens did land. It's not real, but IT MAKES US QUESTION!

:rolleyes

 

[PotatoeMasher]

Rather saying that it's not important to question where the documents came from but to question what they mean.....

UH WAY TO GO RATHER! SHOW THAT JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY! Hey look, I just typed up my own Roswell Memo saying that aliens did land. It's not real, but IT MAKES US QUESTION!

:rolleyes

What Bernard Goldberg started will soon be complete...

 

[Gahiggidy]

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf


^^^^^
Heading address at top says:

111th Fighter Inteceptor Squadron
P.O. Box 34567
Houston, Texas 77034



P.O. Box 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ??!

 

[3rdman]

They're real...you know why I know? Because the White House NEVER disputed their veracity.

 

[Azih]

"On this date I ordered that 1st Lt. Bush be suspended from flight status due to failure to perform to USAF/TexANG standards and failure to meet annual physical examination ... as ordered," says an August 1, 1972 memo by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who is now dead.

Who killed Jerry Killian? CONSPIRACY!

 

[Tenguman]

Some new stuff popping up. The letters that aren't superscript have a space before them. This is a common way to fool word-processors to NOT superscript. You wouldn't need do this on a typewriter.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf


Secondly, there are content problems being picked apart. Superior officiers mentiond in some docs were actually retired by the time these docs were "typed". Problems with some acronyms, and the date that Bush was ordered to complete his physical by. At that time, according to National Guard rules, Bush would have had till June to take his physical -- not March.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

They're real...you know why I know? Because the White House NEVER disputed their veracity.

If there's one thing I'm willing to believe, it's the White House not fully investigating evidence.

Some new stuff popping up. The letters that aren't superscript have a space before them. This is a common way to fool word-processors to NOT superscript. You wouldn't need do this on a typewriter.

I'm willing to believe they're fake, but would like to point out that the very first word on the page you linked to appears to be "111th" without a space.

 

[Dilbert]

Some new stuff popping up. The letters that aren't superscript have a space before them. This is a common way to fool word-processors to NOT superscript. You wouldn't need do this on a typewriter.

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/BushGuardaugust1.pdf


Secondly, there are content problems being picked apart. Superior officiers mentiond in some docs were actually retired by the time these docs were "typed". Problems with some acronyms, and the date that Bush was ordered to complete his physical by. At that time, according to National Guard rules, Bush would have had till June to take his physical -- not March.

You are WAY too obsessed with this. Go outside. Get some sun. Talk to other human beings about something OTHER than political minutiae.

 

[Cooter]

You are WAY too obsessed with this. Go outside. Get some sun. Talk to other human beings about something OTHER than political minutiae.

I love it. When something very bad is on the verge of breaking wide open for jinx's ticket and entire party he tries to downplay it and make everyone interested in finding the truth seem like obsessed introverts.

Classic.

 

[Incognito]

yea, gotta agree with cooter(SHIT NO!!!!).

 

[Hitokage]

Rove playing bullshit smear games gives Democrats no excuse to try pulling off the same stunts. That being said, this could be a more Mark Hoffman type forgery, with the Democrats happy to pick up forged documents for their own purposes without realizing they are fake.

Still, I have to agree with jinx in that what Bush did a few decades ago is far weaker material to work from that what he's done in the past 4 years.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Like I said, it's worthless. The timing of this announcement made it purely political to begin with. Plenty more rope for Bush than this. I think there are plenty flaws in his policy that we don't need to be discussing Nam still. I don't know why Nam has been the hot button issue for both of these guys when there's so much more they are lacking than war service. Man, has the media derailed the mob again? PEACE.

 

[KingV]

Worst Forgery ever. Also, bad bad CBS.

 

[ErasureAcer]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

CBS stands by story.

Whether or not these or fake or not...Bush was still AWOL. Amazingly he was AWOL from a group of people who stood no chance at going overseas at the time(National Guard back in the days...)

Bush is just stupid. And so are his supporters...ok I'm just kidding on the square ya know.

 

[Dilbert]

I love it. When something very bad is on the verge of breaking wide open for jinx's ticket and entire party he tries to downplay it and make everyone interested in finding the truth seem like obsessed introverts.

Classic.

Let's get a couple of things straight. One, I am NOT a Democrat. I'm on the side of what makes sense, and what is best for America...and that doesn't usually line up with either party.

Two, if you think this is "very bad" for Kerry -- on ANY scale -- you're crazy. If it eventually comes out that CBS did run a story based on bad data, then CBS will be very embarrassed, and it will have NOTHING to do with John Kerry. I've love to hear why you think this non-story will affect Kerry's "ticket and entire party," as you claim. Maybe you're implying that Kerry himself authored the documents and passed them to CBS? Please, PLEASE imply that so I can laugh at you some more.

Finally, Tenguman is following what is at best a minor story with a scary intensity. No one had posted anything in a while -- quite content to let this thread die -- and all of a sudden, he pops back in with NEW "evidence" that these documents might be faked. Seriously -- who cares? And who OUGHT to care?

Bush's service or lack thereof is IRRELEVANT to evaluating his presidency, just as Kerry's military service is irrelevant to his candidacy as well. The focus on the past is utterly ridiculous. I mean, America had no problem electing a guy in 2000 (well, if you think he actually WAS elected, but we'll skip that for now) who had an utterly indistinguished service "record" and fairly minimal political involvement on a national scale up to that point, but who had plenty of experience running various companies into the ground and abusing various substances. Quite frankly, if I were Bush, I would keep the past completely out of the discussion. Based strictly on their resumés, Kerry would utterly crush Bush. The only reason that these kinds of non-stories keep popping up is that Bush does NOT want his presidential record to date to be examined in any detail, because he would lose. As long as these kinds of distractions keep popping up, it suits his purpose.

The REAL issues for this election have to do with America's status in the world community, our security as a nation, our foreign policy objectives, the health and prospects of our economy, our social policy objectives, and our rights to privacy and freedom...and on every one of those counts, Bush and his administration represent the wrong set of principles and the wrong set of choices. In case you haven't gotten the memo yet, I'll let you in on a little secret: The young Americans dying in a foreign land for a stupid reason aren't in Vietnam anymore -- they are in IRAQ. It's time to put all this Vietnam-era nonsense to bed and get back to the crucial issues facing our country. If you were REALLY interested in "finding the truth," you'd start paying attention too.

 

[Incognito]

Two, if you think this is "very bad" for Kerry -- on ANY scale -- you're crazy. If it eventually comes out that CBS did run a story based on bad data, then CBS will be very embarrassed, and it will have NOTHING to do with John Kerry. I've love to hear why you think this non-story will affect Kerry's "ticket and entire party," as you claim.

sure, kerry nor the DNC passed off the documents, but the DNC(specifically, terry mcaulfie) is jumping all over it. if the documents prove to be false, then it'll look bad for the whole party for not checking the veracity of the documents themsevles before flooding the airwaves with talking points.

anyway, i agree with the rest of ur post.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

True that. Though the White House tried to spin them in a positive fashion, too.

 

[JJConrad]

I just recreated May 4th 1972 document, using the default MS Word settings, using Times New Roman at a 11 pt font. Everything lined up, including letter, word, and line spacing, line breaks and tab spacings. What wasn't there was the fuzzy text and speckles (you'd think CBS would have a better scanner). It took all of 10 minutes.

But there are other problems with these docs.

Where's the letterhead?
Why aren't proper military abbrevations used? 1st Lt. should be 1LT
Why do they call him George W. Bush? The military would use his last name and two initials (Bush, G W).
What's with the different variances in text? Some words are subscript while similar words are not.
Why are the right margins even, and why is that address on the top center-aligned? Jerry either owned one hell of a typewriter or he put a huge amount of detail into this doc... but then why the other mistakes?
P.O. Box 34567? That's AMAZING!! I've got the same combination on my luggage!

 

[MIMIC]

From CBS News:

CBS News Anchor Dan Rather says many of those raising questions about the documents have focused on something called superscript, a key that automatically types a raised "th."

Critics claim typewriters didn't have that ability in the 1970s. But some models did. In fact, other Bush military records already released by the White House itself show the same superscript – including one from 1968.

Some analysts outside CBS say they believe the typeface on these memos is New Times Roman, which they claim was not available in the 1970s.

But the owner of the company that distributes this typing style says it has been available since 1931.

CBS News

 

[Ripclawe]

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/fortwayne/news/local/9633449.htm

That superscript, however, is in a different typeface than the one used for the CBS memos. Document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines of Paradise Valley, Ariz., who examined the documents for the AP, said she was "virtually certain" they were generated by computer.
Lines said that meant she could testify in court that, beyond a reasonable doubt, her opinion was that the memos were written on a computer.

AP to CBS = you be fucked. the superscript are not same thing. NBC ran the story with an "expert" saying the documents were fake.

 

[Ripclawe]

Knight Ridder to CBS = You be fucked.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/special_packages/election2004/9633814.htm

Man named in Bush memo left Guard before document was written

BY PETE SLOVER

The Dallas Morning News


AUSTIN, Texas - (KRT) - The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugar coat" President Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo was supposedly written, his own service record shows.

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special favors and did not fulfill his service.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among a packet of documents obtained by The Dallas Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting that Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless over remaining officials.

 

[MIMIC]

Actually, I'm too ignorant of this subject to debate it...I just learned what a "superscript" is (and I'm still not quite sure what it is, though )