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[RevenantKioku]

I can't be bothered to go through all this thread, but I do have some questions.
It says "Fall of the Japanese Video [game] Kings"
Now, are a large number of Japanese video game publishers loosing money, OR is the market not as red-hot as it is in the states?
My assumption is gaming is balancing out in Japan, becoming more of a common thing amongst the masses, like buying books or movies would be, whereas right now its hitting that red-hot fury of mass buying and so on in the States.

 

[bloke]

Wonder when will we see japanese answer to GTA. Crazy yakuzas rampaging through the streets of Tokyo...or something.

 

[jarrod]

A game that creates a simple set of rules and lets you interact with other characters to create varied gameplay experiences. This is the real reason I have always and will always like western developers more. Compare the best games of Japan (Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Ninja Gaiden, etc) and you follow a linear storyline to its conclusion. But western devs have created games like Morrowind, Fable, the Sims, Civilization, Black and White, etc - the comparison is easy to see. I, like many others, prefer this form of gameplay. you may not. Doesn't make you screaming "western devs suck!" at the top of your lungs any more accurate, because there are poeple who strongly disagree with you.

Well, that'd be more "emergent game design" really, and it's not exactly new. Still, the best western games (Halo, GTA, etc) seem to be running counter to your standard while there's also Japanese games that apply (Animal Crossing, Seaman, etc).

 

[DJ Demon J]

I think gaming is getting better with less Japanese dominance in the industry.

IAWTP

Excellent article, 100% accurate.

 

[Nerevar]

Well, that'd be more "emergent game design" really, and it's not exactly new. Still, the best western games (Halo, GTA, etc) seem to be running counter to your standard while there's also Japanese games that apply (Animal Crossing, Seaman, etc).

But they are exceedingly rare in Japan, whereas they are much more the norm in the western world - especially in the PC realm. Furthermore, Halo excepting, I would argue that GTA is most certainly a game that fits that description. Most people I know have the most fun by going on ridiculous rampages, seing how much destruction they can cause and avoiding the cops. It's certainly a form of this type of game, and it's much more common in western games. I think it all comes back to how western game developers are less concerned with telling you a story then they are with giving you the proverbial sandbox to play in. Of course, exceptions run both ways, but I don't think you can argue that this is the norm.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Storybook RPGs = attack of the clones. :yawn:



A game that creates a simple set of rules and lets you interact with other characters to create varied gameplay experiences. This is the real reason I have always and will always like western developers more. Compare the best games of Japan (Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Ninja Gaiden, etc) and you follow a linear storyline to its conclusion. But western devs have created games like Morrowind, Fable, the Sims, Civilization, Black and White, etc - the comparison is easy to see. I, like many others, prefer this form of gameplay. you may not. Doesn't make you screaming "western devs suck!" at the top of your lungs any more accurate, because there are poeple who strongly disagree with you.

a) I never said western devs suck

b) the games you listed are emergent?? I cough at your rather weak attempt to make somethign sound more stupendous than it really is. If you said GTA. I would have given you that. Sims + civ+ Bnw are largely pc titles that play very different (differnt interface/input) and can afford a different set of play styles. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT EMERGENT. Fable is NOT emergent; it trumps itself out to be but it is very limited.

* jarrod nailed it with AC.

 

[DJ Demon J]

wow, the rabid "OMG I LOVE JAPAN" people are out in droves. And as has been stated many times previously, I'll take FPSes and emergent gameplay over shoddy platforming, cute characters, and storybook RPGs any day. And I'm probably not the only one.

Millions upon millions of game sales agree with you.

 

[Draff]

People who want one-sided dominance must not like variety at all.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

Millions upon millions of game sales agree with you.

so casuals should define what sort of games we play? I pray for your gaming souls.

Madden 4001 + Sims 95712

 

[RevenantKioku]

People who want one-sided dominance must not like variety at all.

Who cares! Pick a side and fight to the death!

 

[jarrod]

Millions upon millions of game sales agree with you.

Millions upon millions of game sales disagree with you also. Pokemon.

 

[Nerevar]

a) I never said western devs suck

From earlier in the thread ..

cause western game is teh innovate? Fuck, they're all pretty shitty generic titles. FPS / sports..etc.

NO

Excuse me, you said all western games were shitty generic titles. Not like there's much of a difference ...

b) the games you listed are emergent?? I cough at your rather weak attempt to make somethign sound more stupendous than it really is. If you said GTA. I would have given you that. Sims + civ+ Bnw are largely pc titles that play very different (differnt interface/input) and can afford a different set of play styles. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT EMERGENT. Fable is NOT emergent; it trumps itself out to be but it is very limited.

* jarrod nailed it with AC.

I'm not gonig to argue with you, because you're clearly not listening to the points I make and simply dismissing them and patting yourself on the back. You call my attempts to list western games that offer emergent gameplay as ridiculous, yet you list a whole 2 games from Japan and somehow think you've proven a point? I can't argue with you if you feel there game design is somehow traditional "storybook" (which, I would argue, makes you an absolute retard), but there's no doubting they differ from the standard embraced by Eastern games. As I've stated before, exceptions run both ways, but for the most part it is a design element much more common to western games.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

yeah I dont wanna see anyone side die out

I mean sometimes in in the mood for


mario
Silent Hill
Insert good hand holding rpg (minus the teen angst tho please)
Resident Evils
Etc


But I love my

Tony Hawk
GTAs
Halo (im more a pc fps online gamer tho)
and some select sports games


games like food need variety

 

[RevenantKioku]

Millions upon millions of game sales disagree with you also. Pokemon.

Kids don't count and Walmart is being ignored!

 

[TekunoRobby]

I want to see more Asian (ie: China and South Korea) and more Eastern European Development. I don't want to see any culture wane in popularity and quality since each part of the world can offer so much to the gaming community. The game industry is only beginning to really flesh out in a lot of parts of the world and it would be a damn shame to see any culture's influence die out as a result of this industry globilization growing pains that we're going through.

 

[jarrod]

But they are exceedingly rare in Japan, whereas they are much more the norm in the western world - especially in the PC realm.

Got that somewhat backwards... emergent game design is slowly picking up in Japan, while PC gaming is dwindling over here. "Much more the norm" seems like a pretty useless phrase too when it isn't the norm at all.

Furthermore, Halo excepting, I would argue that GTA is most certainly a game that fits that description. Most people I know have the most fun by going on ridiculous rampages, seing how much destruction they can cause and avoiding the cops. It's certainly a form of this type of game, and it's much more common in western games.

It terms of game design and progression, GTA really isn't any more 'emergent' than Super Mario 64 or The Legend of Zelda. "A form of this type"? So are Cubivore and a million other JP games I can name.

I think it all comes back to how western game developers are less concerned with telling you a story then they are with giving you the proverbial sandbox to play in. Of course, exceptions run both ways, but I don't think you can argue that this is the norm.

It isn't the 'norm' for any region though... we're still stuck in linear game design everywhere predominantly. I agree when it comes to particular genres (RPGs) there's notable trends but even then there's games that break the rules (Tengai: Oriental Blue, Sudeki, etc).

 

[Doc Holliday]

Call me when a western dev makes a decent fighter and a non fps action game thats any good.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

GTA clones.

The games industry is a lot about bandwagon jumping. The next big thing like GTA or Splinter Cell will drive a lot of the marketplace - that next big thing could just as likely come from Japan as the west.

This is true, you don't know how often western publishers want to hear your game has GTA gameplay or they tell you to put GTA gameplay in your game.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Call me when a western dev makes a decent fighter and a non fps action game thats any good.

Ooh! Starcraft!
Okay, so they've got the RTS genre too, but...

 

[TheGreenGiant]

From earlier in the thread ..



Excuse me, you said all western games were shitty generic titles. Not like there's much of a difference ...



I'm not gonig to argue with you, because you're clearly not listening to the points I make and simply dismissing them and patting yourself on the back. You call my attempts to list western games that offer emergent gameplay as ridiculous, yet you list a whole 2 games from Japan and somehow think you've proven a point? I can't argue with you if you feel there game design is somehow traditional "storybook" (which, I would argue, makes you an absolute retard), but there's no doubting they differ from the standard embraced by Eastern games. As I've stated before, exceptions run both ways, but for the most part it is a design element much more common to western games.

so you want to do a numbers war on WHICH GAME IS TEH EMERGENT? You were of the opinion that Emergent games is the dominion of Western developers and this is no way true. This is also a matter of opinion

I loved the emergent gameplay in the Fallout series (which shat all over Fable)

I also loved the linear and very determined stories in Japanese storybook RPGs because the scope/scale is beyond grand and sometimes you just want to play something where you mean more to the gamign world than some bit player. Saviours that mean something

and why the hell not? However gameplay wise; Western dev is where I see no/zero/zip innovation coming out. Let's just make it more violent (manhunt) .. more gta.. more fps ... more drivings.. Let's make so many TH series that it becomes stale and then let's make it GTA (underground). Driver was getting stale so we'll make it GTA but we'll also dilute the driving experience. Jak II.. the platforming.. needs jazzing up.. lets GTA it. Your wonderful western developers. SC is probably the one sole standout in yonks.

 

[olimario]

In Japan the only devs I think are capable of good, unique games are Namco, Clover Studio, EAD, Intelligent Systems, and Amusement Vision.

Outside of Japan I'm impressed by Bungie, Retro, and RARE.

Good game and art design isn't limited to a specific country. You have to find your way through a lot of crap wherever you go, whether it be generic anime or xavier fox.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Well, is Mario Party really that bad when put up against Koei's Musou games (which not only get annual releases but also annual updates on those releases) or Konami's Winning Eleven (annual series, in both J-League and World Soccer flavors, with International and/or Final Evolution updates annually as well)? There's most defnitely worse sequel abusers than Nintendo, even in Japan...



That's a rather hollow argument considering Nintendo released three times as much content on NES conpared to GameCube. The frequency in Marios is actually proportional to their entire portfolio.

I didn't mean to single out Nintendo-- I was just saying the franchise-whoring is not limited to the West. Your examples are correct.

 

[Razoric]

Call me when a western dev makes a decent fighter and a non fps action game thats any good.

Ultima Online, World of Warcraft
Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo (blizzard owns)
Fable, Secret of Evermore, Anachronox
Mortal Kombat 6, Killer Instinct
Splinter CellD
Grand Theft Auto 3, Vice, SA

Jut off the top of my head... I've enjoyed more western made games this past generation than anything else.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Storybook RPGs = attack of the clones. :yawn:



A game that creates a simple set of rules and lets you interact with other characters to create varied gameplay experiences. This is the real reason I have always and will always like western developers more. Compare the best games of Japan (Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Ninja Gaiden, etc) and you follow a linear storyline to its conclusion. But western devs have created games like Morrowind, Fable, the Sims, Civilization, Black and White, etc - the comparison is easy to see. I, like many others, prefer this form of gameplay. you may not. Doesn't make you screaming "western devs suck!" at the top of your lungs any more accurate, because there are poeple who strongly disagree with you.

That's a flakey definintion of emergent gameplay. Emergent gameplay is more along the lines of gameplay that results from the interaction of various systems or rules within a game causing unforseen, or not designed as such, gameplay. That's why it's emergent, it's not really planned by the designer, it comes into play on it's own. You can still have linearity with emergent gameplay. The linearity is your overall story, the emergence comes about the various ways or things you do or cause to happen, say during a mission. Deux Ex, is a linear game, you go here, you go there. But it allows you to complete levels in multiple ways, which is not emergent, that was planned. Emergence in Deus Ex for example is using the proximity bombs to climb up the sides of buildings.

What you are defining in your statement is more open-ended or semi open-ended gameplay, which is pretty much designed from outright. From what I can gather you have a better chance of getting emergent gameplay from games that are open-ended because you have so many systems running that a few rules are bound to collide and cause unforseen things to happen.

I also find completely open ended gameplay tends to get boring quickly as most users really do need to atleast have a sense of what they need to do next, while still being allowed to wander off track when they feel like it.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

In Japan the only devs I think are capable of good, unique games are Namco, Clover Studio, EAD, Intelligent Systems, and Amusement Vision.

Outside of Japan I'm impressed by Bungie, Retro, and RARE.

Good game and art design isn't limited to a specific country. You have to find your way through a lot of crap wherever you go, whether it be generic anime or xavier fox.

I think you're not crediting the guys who did Parappa... rez.. sc5 .. tokyo bus ride... jsr.. guitar freaks ICO.. + more

Us/West wise... I can't think of any. Early rare was good but their last 2-3 games were bollocks.

the key word is good unique games.

Okay.

NAME A UNIQUE WESTERN TITLE. Splinter Cell not included.

I have one.. oddworld. Great art, with convergent gameplay that works.



* GTA is sold on violence and hookers. THe gameplay was a 6/10 in my books but I felt that gameplay wise it was lacking. It was the violence and hype that ensured its longevity.

Lol @ Secret of Evermore

 

[RevenantKioku]

I think you're not crediting the guys who did Parappa... rez.. sc5 .. tokyo bus ride... jsr.. guitar freaks ICO.. + more

I'll argue for the Japanese side all day long, but don't bring Rez into this.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

I'll argue for the Japanese side all day long, but don't bring Rez into this.

why not? It brought together beats + shooters and did it with great art and panache.

 

[Razoric]

* GTA is sold on violence and hookers. THe gameplay was a 6/10 in my books but I felt that gameplay wise it was lacking. It was the violence and hype that ensured its longevity.

Lol @ Secret of Evermore

You are a fool if you think violence and hookers were the only things that made GTA appealing.

And SoE was fun. :O

 

[RevenantKioku]

why not? It brought together beats + shooters and did it with great art and panache.

Maybe because it sucks?
Sorry its really just personal hate, but actually your statement is fair, I guess. Maybe. I just can barely find it to be a game, nevertheless entertaining. [/ends sidetracking]

JSR and JSRF are great examples though. I found it much more entertaining than a lot of the other skaters and the like games, although I guess they're pretty different in what they set out to be, no?

 

[TheGreenGiant]

You are a fool if you think violence and hookers were the only things that made GTA appealing.

And SoE was fun. :O

a) okay. I love the pick up porno mags bit while driving + timer + shooting things bit. the racing bits were cool too. But violence in GTA = everything. It is a crime based title after all

b) no to the fun bit

 

[callous]

I don't really care if the mindless masses buy X billion copies of EA's latest as long as I can still have a healthy variety of Japanese games to choose from. I don't see my options in that regard becoming severely limited anytime in the near, or likely even in the distant, future.

In the 80s, Western devs produced shitloads of great games on platforms such as C64 and Spectrum. These days .. meh. Give me all your Katamaris, your Disaster Reports, your Border Downs, your Megaman EXEs, your Ridge Racers and your Tales and I'll be happy to continue ignoring most things Western except maybe a small handful of titles a year.

 

[Razoric]

a) okay. I love the pick up porno mags bit while driving + timer + shooting things bit. the racing bits were cool too. But violence in GTA = everything. It is a crime based title after all

There are many violent titles that don't sell for shit. I wont deny that GTA3 turned heads and got attention with its crazy violence and hookers and whatnot, but if GTA3's gameplay truly sucked and people saw that it was just a shit game based on violence, GTA:Vice would not have sold and there would be no anticipation for another.

Fact is, a lot of people do have fun with GTA and enjoy how the game plays. The violence is just a guilty pleasure more than a needed part of the gameplay.

 

[jarrod]

There are many violent titles that don't sell for shit. I wont deny that Mortal Kombat turned heads and got attention with its crazy violence and fatalities and whatnot, but if MK's gameplay truly sucked and people saw that it was just a shit game based on violence, MK2 would not have sold and there would be no anticipation for another.

Fact is, a lot of people do have fun with MK and enjoy how the game plays. The violence is just a guilty pleasure more than a needed part of the gameplay.

Just to play devil's advocate... and apologies to the MK fans around here.

 

[SantaC]

This thread can only end in tears...

Gaming is getting more popular, it's definitely not getting better though.

Will it take until Splinter Cell 19 and Madden 2035, not to mention GTA:Ancient Egypt where u go and steal camels off people to steal from tombs before people start to get bored?

There's so much generic rubbish around at the moment.

How can people compare the Mario franchise, in which every game is different and is good because of the quality of the game, and not the Mario character- it could have anyone in it and still be good, to the endless sequels that the US / Europe publishers turn out, EA especially.

I think the market as a whole is pretty dire right now.

IAWTP

 

[RevenantKioku]

There are many violent titles that don't sell for shit. I wont deny that GTA3 turned heads and got attention with its crazy violence and hookers and whatnot, but if GTA3's gameplay truly sucked and people saw that it was just a shit game based on violence, GTA:Vice would not have sold and there would be no anticipation for another.

Fact is, a lot of people do have fun with GTA and enjoy how the game plays. The violence is just a guilty pleasure more than a needed part of the gameplay.

People enjoying the game is the end result though.

Whoa, I just got a fucking deja-vu, I know I've had this conversation before, and I think its time to stop.

 

[TheGreenGiant]

There are many violent titles that don't sell for shit. I wont deny that GTA3 turned heads and got attention with its crazy violence and hookers and whatnot, but if GTA3's gameplay truly sucked and people saw that it was just a shit game based on violence, GTA:Vice would not have sold and there would be no anticipation for another.

Fact is, a lot of people do have fun with GTA and enjoy how the game plays. The violence is just a guilty pleasure more than a needed part of the gameplay.

so I was right? OKTHXBYE.

The masses will buy anything for the right hype factor - GTA was the must buy title for the PS2 becuase of the violence and the trumpeted ability to fuck whores. It had a huge sales spike when word got out about these factors. GTA didn't only sell cause it was fun; it sold because hype built up and the word got out.

The masses also lapped up E T M.

nuff said

 

[Prine]

so casuals should define what sort of games we play? I pray for your gaming souls.

Madden 4001 + Sims 95712

In some cases Casuals > Hardcore

Elitest snobs are the scum of this industry, Madden is fun, so is Winning Eleven, so is GTA and so are FPS.

So what if its out every year, theres enough added, tweaked to make the experience worth while.

+1 Neverer

 

[TheGreenGiant]

In some cases Casuals > Hardcore

Elitest snobs are the scum of this industry, Madden is fun, so is Winning Eleven, so is GTA and so are FPS.

So what if its out every year, theres enough added, tweaked to make the experience worth while.

+1 Neverer

my shit stained copy of EDGE says you're wrong.

Madden = Britney = McDonald's

Popular but shit

 

[Leviathan]

There are three things that make a hit in the current market," says Simon Cox, editor in chief of the magazine Xbox Nation. "It's either culturally relevant, superrealistic or tied to a strong license. Japan currently scores zero on all three of those with their games.

*Yawn* What rubbish. The article is garbage and this thread is garbage. Meh.

 

[jarrod]

In some cases Casuals > Hardcore

Indeed...

PS2 > Xbox

Mario Sunshine > Ninja Gaiden

Pokemon > KOTOR

FIFA > Winning Eleven

 

[callous]

my shit stained copy of EDGE says you're wrong.

Madden = Britney = McDonald's

Popular but shit

I never did find out if you can still use the thumbs up icon on the new boards, but I'd give this post one if I could.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Emergence is not a domain beholden onto the West or East. Emergence is totally beholden onto the interaction of various systems and rules that are built into a game, that give an outcome or condition not designed or forseen in the actual design.

Take my proximity mine example from Deus Ex, that's emergent gameplay. There was another example I read in a book using the game populus, something about using preists to convert attackers.

I mean that is why it's called emergent. It just happens, it's not planned, it just happens. That is not a domain of East or West. So to say that Western devs are the masters of emergent gameplay is silly.

Western devs are more pushing the frontiers of semi open-ended gameplay in overall linear games.

IMO, any game with an overall story line, is linear. You go from point A to point B. You ultimately reach the designers intended ending.

A truely non-linear game would just pop you into a world with no story and you create your own, and since you just would exist in this created world, there wouldn't be an end to the game. It would just go on and on and on forever.

The closest we have gotten to that are MMORPGs. You are pretty much free to do whatever you want in those games. ALMOST.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

GTA is one of the few games I am looking forward to this season. Like better sequels, this franchise has managed to keep what's good and keep adding/expanding gameplay elements and making new challenges.

I think one thing that doesn't get stressed enough in these threads is that polish != quality gaming. It's certainly important, and I think Japanese developers do it better, but the best game of this generation (IMHO) has a shaky framerate, sloppy controls in parts, lame art, and glitches. And it's a damn fine game, gameplaywise. (That's still GTA I am talking about.)

When I finshed off the level with the maniacs with bombs attached to them, I had run halfway across the city, and pegged the last one with my sniper-scope rifle. I'm sure that wasn't the set, planned outcome-- it's just the way that my skills were best suited. That's cool, and that's emergent gameplay.

About "casuals" -- before gaming became more popular, games were buried under a ton of cookie cutter clones. Now that casual players are common-- we're buried under a ton of cookie-cutter games. It's a non-factor.

Before the last couple of years, I found that my favorite games were pretty much divided among all the continents. Unfortunately, *all* regions seem to be making lame games these days-- or I'm just not knowing where to look anymore. I come here and the big talk is about Burnout-- but I found Burnout 1 very lame.

 

[duderon]

In some cases Casuals > Hardcore

Elitest snobs are the scum of this industry, Madden is fun, so is Winning Eleven, so is GTA and so are FPS.

So what if its out every year, theres enough added, tweaked to make the experience worth while.

+1 Neverer

Except when there are games like Katamari Damacy, Ikaruga, Cubivore, etc. These games are rare, and unique experiences. I don't see why anyone would want to lose variety in videogames. The more variety, the more great games to chose from. That's why the loss of Japanese developers would be damaging to the industry.

 

[Prine]

Indeed...

PS2 > Xbox

Mario Sunshine > Ninja Gaiden

Pokemon > KOTOR

FIFA > Winning Eleven

Indeed

Xbox > GC

Halo > Sunshine

KOTOR > TOS

And Winning Eleven outsold Fifa in EU


Theres enough casuals supporting Xbox and its top games so its ok

 

[Razoric]

so I was right? OKTHXBYE.

The masses will buy anything for the right hype factor - GTA was the must buy title for the PS2 becuase of the violence and the trumpeted ability to fuck whores. It had a huge sales spike when word got out about these factors. GTA didn't only sell cause it was fun; it sold because hype built up and the word got out.

The masses also lapped up E T M.

nuff said

No you werent right. The violence is what turned heads, but the gameplay is what sustained sales, got it good reviews, and allowed its sequel to be the biggest selling game of this generation. The masses "lapped up" ETM because its the Matrix. I'd like to see how many copies of ETM 2 sell (if they ever made one)... I highly doubt it would even do half of what the first one did.

Hype only does so much if the game sucks.

 

[Prine]

Except when there are games like Katamari Damacy, Ikaruga, Cubivore, etc. These games are rare, and unique experiences. I don't see why anyone would want to lose variety in videogames. The more variety, the more great games to chose from. That's why the loss of Japanese developers would be damaging to the industry.

Im not saying consoles should lose variety, i just hate elitest gamers that always bash GTA, Madden etc. They're good games, extremley good games. Reviews and opinon backs it up

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I can't speak for Madden, as I don't have the patience for ideogame football at all. But as I said above, GTA:VC is the best game of this generation.

Ico could have been, but it was too brief an experience.

 

[jarrod]

Indeed

Xbox > GC

Halo > Sunshine

KOTOR > TOS

And Winning Eleven outsold Fifa in EU


Theres enough casuals supporting Xbox and its top games so its ok

But here I thought the argument was hardcore vs casual? Anyway, let's throw in the other examples proportinately...

PS2 >>>>>>>>>> Xbox > GC
Halo > Sunshine >>>> Ninja Gaiden
Pokemon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KOTOR > TOS

And Winning Eleven hasn't outsold Fifa in any region that I'm aware of. Have a link?

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Id rather be labeled a casual gamer then hardcore, Im not 12 anymore playing video games 22 hours a day doesnt make you cool, or anything productive.